long live for lebanese national resistance [hezollah],they are the one who liberated lebonan from the bloody israelie occupation,go go resistance,go go hezollah.

Dave, you write:

"But after the [1967] war Israel expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their captured territory and over 100,000 of them ended up in southern Lebanon ... this poor, displaced population was easy pickings for the promoters of both militant fundamentalist religion and militant political ideologies..."

This is the source of the problem we have today... resulting in a "radicalizing force of terror".

Yes, some of the "displaced population" are behaving like animals.

The problem is when you treat people like animals, they behave like animals.

What else would you expect?

Libanon becomes Israels ally was the stupidest thing I read in this post, een though almost everything was pretty stupid.

Israel should pull out of Lebanon...and move into Syria instead...

Nicely written stuff, Dave, thanks.

RJ: Indeed, but unlikely!

Some animals are more equal than others.

Mohammed. I read the post (unlike you) where does it say anything about Lebanon becoming Israel's ally? Or are you one of those people who just sees what he expects to see, be it there or not?

The fact is that the garrison settler state of Israel exists. As long as it exists nobody will be safe.

Excellent article Dave,
I have to admit that I know very little about the entire situation in the middle east aside from the faction which has infected the land, and the ease at which innocent people, women and children alike, would be butchered, the country bastardized, ultimately in the name of 'god' or land.
It makes me wonder if it hasn't already gone so far that total annihilation is the inevitable peace.
Thanks for a first person view of a land I will never claim to understand.

long live for lebanese national resistance [hezollah],they are the one who liberated lebonan from the bloody israelie occupation,go go resistance,go go hezollah.

Ok, that's just utter propagandistic bullshit, and I'm betting you know it and just posted it to stir up trouble. It wasn't Hezbollah marching in the streets of Beirut when Hariri was killed - he was likely killed by them or their Syrian allies. Hezbollah is part of the occupation which the protesters were objecting to.

Those people marching in the street were Lebanese, asserting themselves for the first time in decades, and claiming otherwise diminishes their accomplishments, which is pretty shameful when your objective is to glorify murderous invaders like Hezbollah.

Dave

Where would the Middle East be today if UN Resolutions 242 and 338 had been enforced by the United States?

Odd, there was a long and interesting comment here that I was about to respond to, but it seems to have disappeared. Maybe I have it in cache...

Dave

The long and interesting comment in your cache is #11.

Dave, it's too bad that your article, which I think is one of the best I've read on the situation, gets so distorted by the moronic ravings of some of the commenters here. That's the problem with writing anything--people only hear what they want to hear.

Les wants Israel destroyed. What possible reason or logic could break through that fundamentally anti-semetic wall of bigotry?

Mohamed--well, let's be generous and say that English is not his first language.

And Dean's lack of historical knowledge has created a solid barrier of bias that no reasoned approach can penetrate.

That being said, it's a great piece. I just wish people would read it without preconceptions and biases and ideology and understand what you were trying to say.

In Jameson Veritas

This is a great article. Mohammad, I am a Palestinian. This is the Hizbollah achievements:
Sprading fear among Lebanese
Spreading hate and tarnishing Islam
Teaching barbaric and animal behavior to thier followers
Supporting Hamas, who has killed more Palestinians and terrorized us more than Israel ever will.
Using the Lebanese as human shields and causing Israel to bomb civilians,
And Oh, yes, getting a medal from the ignorance and anger of the Arabs who don;t have the backbone to see what their leaders are doing to them.
Good job Hizbollah...

Abdallah. It's good to hear from a Palestinian with such a sensible viewpoint. I didn't see how I could address it in the same article, but my experience with Palestinians when I was a kid living in Jordan was very positive. They're good people too. They aren't as 'modern' as the Lebanese, perhaps, but they've been given a lot fewer opportunities, especially those under Israeli rule. Jordan is essentially a palestinian nation, and after Lebanon it's one of the most progressive nations in the region, despite being under a ridiculous amount of political and economic pressure.

Dave

Thanks for the first hand article- very informative. My outlook on democracy for Lebanon was much more bleak. Very surprised to learn that Lebanon was only 1/3 Muslim. I looked up the current demographics and found 59% of the country is muslim, 39% is christian and only 1.3% other (which I am guessing is largely Jewish). I don't know what it was like 40 years ago, but where did the aproximately nearly 1 million Jews go from 1960-2000? Israel???

PETI

Thanks for the first hand article- very informative. My outlook on democracy for Lebanon was much more bleak. Very surprised to learn that Lebanon was only 1/3 Muslim. I looked up the current demographics and found 59% of the country is muslim, 39% is christian and only 1.3% other (which I am guessing is largely Jewish). I don't know what it was like 40 years ago, but where did the aproximately nearly 1 million Jews go from 1960-2000? Israel???

Yes, lots of Lebanese Jews went to Israel. As for the population breakdown, Lebanon originally had a LOT more Christians than it does now - they went to the US and Europe in the 70s and 80s - and I wasn't counting the Druze and Yezidis as mainstream Moslems. Back in the 60s it was a third Sunni and a third Christian and a third other, mostly Jews and Druze. The Sunnis stayed and have been joined by some Shia, so though their numbers aren't much bigger they now make up a much larger percentage of the population.

Dave

Mark Shannon says:

"And Dean's lack of historical knowledge has created a solid barrier of bias that no reasoned approach can penetrate."

Thanks for the specific critique.

With the amount of detail given here by Mark, all I can say is he is a man of few words.

His ability to get to an opinion without providing any rationale is remarkable.

All Mark wants is for his opinion to be taken on our faith in his great wisdom.

Dave, That long and interesting comment was from me. I don't know where it went, either. I double entered it so it appeared twice. Perhaps the blogexperts deleted them both by mistake? Hmmmm. I don't have a copy of it either. In any case I complemented you on your objective and accurate summary and added a few personal comments. In any case, Aloha

Well then clearly it was a fine and intelligent comment - if it included compliments for me.

I hadn't had time to read through it all before it disappeared, unfortunately.

Dave

BOP did indeed post twice and I deleted one copy. No idea what happened to the other one, I'm afraid.

[Comment restored by admin, originally posted by Bird of Paradise on July 30 @ 8:19pm]

Dave, Your post states what I believe to be one of the most objective, succinct and comprehensive descriptions that I have read concerning the tragedy that has befallen Lebanon over the past 30 years. Sadly, the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 division of the population that gave Lebanon its unique and equitable form of government is long past. Many Lebanese Christians (who were the highly educated middle class) have fled to the United States. Their loss has decimated the economic stability of the country leaving a far greater dependence on investment and influence from conservative Arab/Muslim countries.

The immense growth of the Muslim population (especially Shia) has skewed this political teeter-totter completely out of balance. This, more than anything, accounts for the political strength and influence that Hezbollah now enjoys in spite of the bitter rejection of their imperialistic and colonial attitude toward the historic population of Lebanon (which includes yourself).

If Lebanon is ever again to enjoy the peace and stability it once had then it is a prerequisite that Hezbollah be both disarmed and disestablished as a representative political constituency of the national government.

How this can be accomplished without the military intervention of Israel is hard for me to see. Even much of the so-called Lebanese army is made up of Shia soldiers who will not find much enthusiasm for attacking and destroying the cancer of Hezbollah among their own people in the south and east.

The people of Lebanon are in my prayers every day. I have one good friend who (as an Ameircan Christian who had spent 20+ years in Lebanon bringing Muslim, Druze and Christian youth together to nurture dialogue, mutual understanding and respect) was kidnapped during the early years of the civil war and spent one year blindfolded and chained to a radiator somewhere out in the Bekaa Valley...held hostage by the forerunners of Hezbollah who were acting on behalf of Iran and, later, Syria as well.

While I also pray for the safety and future of the displaced Palestinians who remain in Lebanon and the families of the native and "imported" Shia in the south, I find that I must place the full weight of responsibility for their suffering on the shoulders of those so-called "leaders" of the PLO and Hezbollah who have used them as pawns and chattel for their own political ambitions.

The immense growth of the Muslim population (especially Shia) has skewed this political teeter-totter completely out of balance. This, more than anything, accounts for the political strength and influence that Hezbollah now enjoys in spite of the bitter rejection of their imperialistic and colonial attitude toward the historic population of Lebanon (which includes yourself).

Well, since both my parents were American I'm not that historically Lebanese, just by accident of birth. Plus since I hit 18 during the period when the militias were slaughtering each other, I decided not to give dual citizenship a try.

To me the really troubling thing about the Shia presence in Lebanon is that it's completely artificial. They were moved in there by Iran and are nothing but invaders. And BTW, Iranians are volunteering in large numbers to go there and fight Israel in this current conflict.

If Lebanon is ever again to enjoy the peace and stability it once had then it is a prerequisite that Hezbollah be both disarmed and disestablished as a representative political constituency of the national government.

Not just that. They need to be removed. The Palestinians need to be sent to Jordan and the Iranians need to be sent back to Iran.

How this can be accomplished without the military intervention of Israel is hard for me to see. Even much of the so-called Lebanese army is made up of Shia soldiers who will not find much enthusiasm for attacking and destroying the cancer of Hezbollah among their own people in the south and east.

This is why I think a lot of people in Lebanon are secretly pretty happy to see Israel attacking Hezbollah so long as they don't attack major targets farther north.

Dave

I think a lot of people in Lebanon are secretly pretty happy to see Israel attacking Hezbollah so long as they don't attack major targets farther north.

Very secretly - especially those whose children's charred and mangled bodies lie in the streets of Beirut next to bombed out apartment buildings.

The Lebanese now see that that Israel is bent on conducting a total war against its citizens. The Israeli genocide against Lebanon's civilian population has been made crystal clear by Generalissimo Halutz: "For every rocket we shall destroy ten high rise buildings in Beirut"

Excellent, Dave. Your memories are more real than mine which were only from magazine articles and stories from our Lebanese neighbors and friends in Tampa. All painted the picture of a rich and peaceful city on the sea. But in those days so was Sarajevo.

Extremism and religious zealots have not brought much good to the world over the past 50 or so years. The innocents suffer.

I wrote another comment but Movable Type kept telling me "Error 32: Banned word". Odd. Perhaps it doesn't like the word extremism. Neither do I.

Dave:
I can't argue that the modernist elements in Lebanon are much better than Hezbollah. But how can anyone know what the ethnic make-up of Lebanon is, since there hasn't been a census done since 1932?
Everyone has a stake in blaming outsiders for the disintegration of Lebanon. You blame the evil socialists, Brodie blames the evil jews... But, in fact, were'nt there calls for a new census in the years immediately prior to the bombings and retaliation, in the form of machine gunning a bus, that actually caused mass desertions from the already weak and sectarian army? Isn't this actually what started a civil war, that all these outsiders then took advantage of?
I know even most of the Lebanese prefer another story these days, but check it out, everything I've described happened, in the order I described it.
Maybe the problem the modernists had in Lebanon, for years, was that instead of making sure the majority in their country felt the positive effects of progress, they were more interested in maintaining an unfair advantage in the sectarian government. And they were always willing to take help from an outside power (France, among others) in order to do this.
When you look at at that way, Maronite neglect and deciet made the Shia easy pickings for the Revolutionary guard. And all of Lebanon still pays the price.
Just something to consider on the odd chance this little rebuilding project leads somewhere other than back to where you started.

The war in Lebanon is not an island. It has to be considered in light of what has happened in the Middle East since the end of WWII.

It's something the United States doesn't want to address and that is the core problem.

SS, the number of Shia in Lebanon prior to the Iranian influx was minuscule. Yes, it's a problem that there has been no census, but we do have historical information on who has left the country and who has entered the country and a pretty good idea who's there right now. Maybe not perfect, but then neither are censuses.

And are you seriously trying to say that all of Lebanon was not better off under a reasonably strong, pro-western secular government than it is now with a weak government and extremists running out of control?

Dave

No, Dave, I'm saying Lebanon got to the point where it has a weak government and extremists running out of control because the 'confessional' system of government was a civil war waiting to happen. I'm also making the arguement that the people under-represented, pre-Taif, weren't enjoying the fruits of the Riveria, and that made them easy prey for extremists with a message of blame and violence.
Espicially if the extremists managed to turn blame and violence into pride and survival, like the successful one's always do.
Not that Taif and the power sharing aren't as big a mess in their own way (a weak, paralyzed government totally reliant on outside help to deal with internal problems, for instance)
And now that extremism has a voice in Lebanon, it's going to be a little harder to remove it than the current justifications for destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon make it sound. (A country that already has problems with debt, by the way.)
But don't take my word for it, wait a year and see who's lobbing bombs into Israel this time (though probably it will still be Hezbollah), and the inevitable Israeli response that will come a few years latter, and the cries of the world, and blah blah blah...
Any change is going to have to come from inside the sects. Hopefully this is what Harari represents. Still, the Shia need to be able to handle their own problem (Hezbollah), or the merry-go-round just keeps spinning. This won't happen overnight, and there probably isn't anything we can do to make happen any faster. Though we may actually be able to slow it down by believing in quick fixes, like Taif, and like disarming Hezbollah (they'll just rearm).
I understand the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, but in this case I think the way they went about it bought them higher casualties in the short run, and probably the long run too, if they actaully wind up getting new volunteers, and maybe even new sponsors for Hezbollah when it starts to buy new mortars, rockets, or whatever they decide to use to skirt NATO and the Israelis in a year, or two, or less.

Just re read my original comment. What I meant to convey was I couldn't argue against the modernist element being better for Lebanon, though if you read the comment above, you'll see where I think the idea that you can just make them dominant and everything will naturally solve itself has it's flaws.

Question of the day:

What would muslims do with themselves if every other religion was wiped off the face of the earth?

Answer:

SS, I agree to some extent. The composition of the country has changed enough that the kind of natural western-leaning society you had in the 60s would be much more difficult to establish. It might have to apply to just part of the country or be imposed by a stronger regime. Over time I think that national prosperity would overcome the backwardness of some of the newer elements in the country. The tragedy of Lebanon is that their best and brightest of the previous generation all left the country. Look at a list of prominent Arab-Americans sometime. They're overwhelmingly Lebanese. That talent-drain is part of the problem they face. They lost their natural leaders and intellectuals and gained poor palestinians and fanatical Iranians instead. Not a good trade.

Dave

Not just that. They need to be removed. The Palestinians need to be sent to Jordan and the Iranians need to be sent back to Iran.

Dave,
Good article, but you don't include Lebanon in the equation of the Palestinian problem. Israel didn't drive them out, they left. Lebanon didn't accept them, they left them on the border as refugee's.
You say of these Palestinians:
many largely poor, unskilled, and angry refugees
and you sound fairly racist in your description. Why did Lebanon welcome them in and give them jobs at the Rivera cleaning pools, landscaping, maid service, bus boys and the like, so Lebanon could have maintained their paradise in fine Western Style? I mean you sanction the same thing in America with the poor displaced immigrants of the world.

The Palestinians in Lebanon originally mostly came from Jordan, not Israel. They were forced out when Israel took away land which had been part of Jordan. And while they may have been accepted because of a need for labor in Lebanon, they were taken under durress - basically forced on Lebanon by the UN. When the Lebanese economy went south and then they had a civil war and the Syrian invasion those Palestinians who were on the bottom of the economic ladder ended up the worst off.

And it's not racist to say that people are poor, unskilled and angry refugees when they are. Being poor or unskilled or driven from your home is not YOUR fault, and it isn't a racial characteristic. It's something you can overcome, but it's also something that shouldn't be forced on you.

Dave

I say defend the same thing in America. You don't have the same position for many largely poor, unskilled Mexicans poring into our country. Why not?

Besides, you make Lebanon sound like such an innocent victim of circumstances and not at all complicit in the conditions surrounding the entire region. Why don't they give the Palestinians land and a home? Citizenship? Grant them Amnesty.....

Dave says:

"The Palestinians in Lebanon originally mostly came from Jordan, not Israel."

That is only half the story.

The Palestinians driven out of Jordan were first driven out of Israel.

Dean, Remember, Jordan and Egypt occupied Palestine for about 20 years.
you should also look this up. No one can afford to point fingers.

After the war, a few Arab leaders tried to present the Palestinian exodus as a victory by claiming to have planned it. None of them provided any evidence for this claim. An oft-quoted example from the untranslated Arabic memoirs of Khalid al-`Azm , who was prime minister of Syria from December 17, 1949 to March 30, 1949 (a period after most of the exodus was complete), has a different explanation, however. In his memoirs, Al-Azm listed a number of reasons for the Arab defeat in an attack on the Arab leaders, including his own predecessor, Jamil Mardam Bey:

Fifth: the Arab governments' invitation to the people of Palestine to flee from it and seek refuge in adjacent Arab countries, after terror had spread among their ranks in the wake of the Deir Yassin event. This mass flight has benefited the Jews and the situation stablized in their favor without effort.
...
Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homeland, while it is we who constrained them to leave it. Between the invitation extended to the refugees and the request to the United Nations to decide upon their return, there elapsed only a few months.
-Al-`Azm, Mudhakarat (al-Dar al Muttahida lil-Nashr, Beirut, 1972), Volume I, pp 386-7.

The point being is that nobody wanted the Palestinians. No one. And now all of a sudden they're held up as oppressed and displaced people by the Jews. Not all true by any means, but every country seems to have it's smoking guns.

The exodus of Palestinians from their homes in Palestine during the late 1940's is not unlike the exodus of the Jews from their homes in Europe during the late 1930's.

Excellent historical input, Abdallah. Puts the situation in perspective even if it doesn't do much to solve the problems which exist today.

Dave

I say defend the same thing in America. You don't have the same position for many largely poor, unskilled Mexicans poring into our country. Why not?

Because they are not displaced persons, they mostly come here for the short term, and there are jobs available for them. They work, obey the law and go back to Mexico. They certainly don't live in refugee camps and suck up international aid money.

Besides, you make Lebanon sound like such an innocent victim of circumstances and not at all complicit in the conditions surrounding the entire region. Why don't they give the Palestinians land and a home? Citizenship? Grant them Amnesty.....

Are you not even a little bit familiar with Lebanon? What land? The country's smaller than Vermont. And what would they do with the land they got? The soil was farmed out 3,000 years ago. And there's nothing to grant them amnesty for. They're not criminals. They just need a decent place to live where they can support themselves. The truth is that most of the Palestinians would probably be best off under Israeli rule if they could get rid of Hamas and help create a situation where they could be integrated into Israeli society. Some of them have done it, you know. There have been Arabs in the Knesset since it was formed, and there is a population of Arabs who live within Israel as citizens - some of them of Palestinian extraction. Many of them are Christian, but by no means all. Israel would have extended those same rights to a lot of the Palestinians had they been more cooperative and less eager to be used as pawns by hostile Arab states.

Dave

for more info on the period of Arab flight that Abdallah refers to in #38 see here

dave:

nice article. I have heard of what beirut used to be. and i am sad to see it destroyed again by none other than israel. Thanks for "sympathizing" with the lebanese while israel budgeons it to oblivion once again. Ironicaly this is positively affecting hezbollah!

Some points :

* the shia a have been in there for a while:
Lebanon's Shia"
they are no newcomers from iran. iran sent people to fight israel in the early eighties to fight against israel, but the numbers are insignificant. there's an interesting point about tolerance and hezbollah's independant approach, as can be expected in multi-religious states like lebanon and syria.

* the christians mostly maronites are the wealthy of lebanon. they left lebanon because they could, leaving behind the poor, especially the shia, to rot. the emergence of hezbollah, in the shadow of israel, was to be expected.

I support freedom/s for lebanon, and I also support hezbollah against israel.

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#38, 39, 41

I think abdallahs overall point is that the palestinians are also oppressed by israel as they were mistreated by the arab states (or worse?)

theres a reality on the ground and there is the reality of the state actors (arab or jew) colored by their respective agendas.

i would optimistically expect many heads to roll still. With dave though i agree there is no solution in this particlar discussio. but I also see hamas and hezbollah as genuine voices of the majority of the displaced and affected people, some opposition nothwithstanding, for whom no one is willing to stand up selflessly.

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Because they are not displaced persons, they mostly come here for the short term, and there are jobs available for them. They work, obey the law and go back to Mexico. They certainly don't live in refugee camps and suck up international aid money.

The Palestinians are not displaced either, they could freely live in Israel couldn't they? And BS they come here for the short term, that is just not correct.

A tiny piece of land that's bigger than Israel as well. My point is have them hire, house and aid the Palestinians as you want America to do for the Mexicans.

Double standard.....

If the guys fixing our air conditioner at work don't get their shit together soon the Palestinians can have my cubicle.
Just doin' my part.

Wow, Gazelle. That's a pretty twisted and biased source you cite there. The fact is that the Shia were always a small minority in Iraq and they chose to side with the bad guys in the civil war and have suffered as a result. And the numbers of Iranians who have moved in there to help out is in the thousands, so it's not insignificant. They also brought weapons and money with them.

How you can support the freedom of Lebanon and support Hezbollah at the same time is a mystery to me, since as long as Hezbollah exists Lebanon will be under constant threat from both Hezbollah and Israel.

Dave

Dave says:

"Wow, Gazelle... How you can support the freedom of Lebanon and support Hezbollah at the same time is a mystery to me..."

Gazelle is simply reiterating what the Lebanese PM is saying.

Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has publicly thanked, and praised, Hezbollah for its stance on Israel.

Yes, we've already established the Siniora is an idiot and an appeaser.

Dave

Who is "we"?

Gazelle -

HizbAllah advocates the destruction of Israel...you 'support HizbAllah against Israel'...you advocate the desruction of Israel

or did I miss something - ?

where should the camps for the 'tranfered' Israelis by built - ?

troll

Ooh, let's bring all the displaced Israelis to America when Israel falls. We need more Jews.

And can you imagine what a mess the new 'palestinian' state would be that replaces Israel? How much will the UN and the US have to spend to keep it peaceful and the people fed?

Dave

"How much will the UN and the US have to spend to keep it peaceful and the people fed?"

A helluva lot less than Iraq.

I wouln't bet on it, Dean. Religious and ethnic based civil war would likely break out in the new palestine as well.

Dave

If we expect to control 24 million Iraqis who have three divergent religious factions, it would seem to be a simple matter to control two million Palestinians who for decades, have called on the US to enter their land.

Dave,

Excellent article, we lived in
Saudi Arabia during the early 60's and vacationed in Lebanon it is a sad day for us to see what is happening today. The U.S. foreign policy over the last 50 odd years is as much to blame for what is happening in the Middle East today as anything. I don't know what the answer is, but as long as we keep supporting the Israel war machine to the tune of 3 billion plus annually I don't see a solution. Back to the positive an excellent article.

The answer to the Middle East conflict is so simple it is difficult not to see it.

Excellent article Dave...

A couple of comments:

Hizbollah...a resistance group??? Resisting what and who???? I used to live in southern Lebanon and since 2000 I don't recall Israel messing with Lebanon unless they were provoked by Hizbollah... same as it happened this time... and I do agree that we were a few steps away from making peace (becoming allies) with Israel...Hizbollah's nightmare come true. Hizbollah should never use ISLAM as its cause of war...this doesn't exist. Religion is our most sensitive subject, and once someone tells us that we are threatened, we will react to it... it never calls us to kill anyone...

As for the Palestinians, we should not forget that many of them were not kicked out of their homes 1948, most of them sold their lands and I know that from many Palestinians in Lebanon.

I thank Israel for what they are doing... they are not destroying Lebanon... they are giving us an opportunity to rebuild the the shanty towns they have destroyed, the beautiful part of Lebanon is intact... after they finish with Hizbollah, we will build l€ebanon again... with better buildings and better roads.

I'm sorry I have to be blunt with my comments, but this is reality and we should accept it as is.

Build an artificial Island in the middle of the Mediteranian?

Hezbollah is a resistence group in the same sense that a guu who shoots u in the head is a brain surgeon.

From the article by Dave, it appears that Hesbollah radicals,the by-product of the past or the presence, is the pain in the neck of Lebanon. Is Israel doing the right way to get rid of them but,certainly not at the expense and the suffering of the lebanese people.
Lebanese government and the people should stand firm to tackle the issue by themselves.

Martin, perhaps we could relocate all the jews to Sealand.

Dave

It's time to inject a little humor in all this.

Today, among other funny statements, Shimon Peres was outside the White House saying that all Israel wants is for all Middle East countries to obey international law.

Dave,
I liked this article a lot and you had me all the way to the conclusion. It seems to me that it would still be up to Lebanon to invite another country in to "take care of their problem".

As someone above pointed out, the creation of all the refugees in 1967 is not a small matter and yes it clearly changed Lebanon (I'm no expert) for the worse, but those refugees have some real issues that need to be addressed. Where do they live and where do they have citizenship being one of them.

#48 israel came first 1948, hezbollah in 1982 to resist the israeli illegal occupation. it did not exist before but members of amal like nasrullah split from Nabi Berry's Amal party.

you say my source is incorrect. maybe. where is yours which says thousands moved to lebanon ? you need one too.

when the irani revolution 1979 happened they wanted to export it in their revolutionary fervor to the shia in lebanon, and to oppose israel they sent a band of troops (numbers?) with support. But as the revolutionary fervour cooled, they could not do this anymore overtly and had to be more diplomatic, when they opened up to the international community especially with rafsanjani and m.....? with the US selling arms to both iran and iraq durinthe iran-iraq war !

#49 Dean is correct that Siniora has stated his support for hezbollah. i have stated elsewhere too that while i may not be hezbollah they are absolutely justified in defending their lebanese land from foreign attack. This is for the defense and liberation of lebanon from the military and political domination and ambitions of israel, especially given that syria was eased out earlier. defending on sovereign soil is sacred for any patriot.

the same reason why so many normal iraqis and afghans are fighting the foreign invaders.

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You can verify all my facts at Wikipedia, which is a neutral source, Gazelle.

And your exuses for Iran and Hezbollah are just that - excuses for murderers and invaders in Lebanon.

They are not fighting FOR Lebanon, they are fighting AGAINST Israel. To suggest otherwise is pure deception.

Dave

Dave,

I've steered clear of arguing on this piece because you are talking from experience. You've lived in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan and I have not. For the most part, I agree with what you've written here. I honestly feel bad that Lebanon has gotten crapped on by HizbAllah, Syria, Iran and the Arab refugees who fled Israel.

I feel terrible that it is Lebanon and not Syria that is being blasted to bits. Even though HizbAllah is part of the government there, most Lebanese do not deserve having their country being destroyed.

But I will note one point, one that I do not think I saw in your article. Lebanon has made it impossible for an Arab refugee from Israel to obtain Lebanese citizenship, or education or even a job. IMHO, this policy has led to the destruction of the country and finally its takeover by Syria and Iran.

ut I will note one point, one that I do not think I saw in your article. Lebanon has made it impossible for an Arab refugee from Israel to obtain Lebanese citizenship, or education or even a job. IMHO, this policy has led to the destruction of the country and finally its takeover by Syria and Iran.

I agree that it's a troublesome policy, but it's entirely understandable. Lebanon is a small country and relatively heavily populated compared to most Arab nations. They don't have the space or the resources to absorb a lot of immigrants, and frankly they probably didn't much like the idea of lowering their standard of living by letting in too many poor Arabs from other nations. Then, with the rise of terrorism, they certainly didn't want to let potential troublemakers in. Their secular values would not sit well with a population of fundamentalist immigrants. By barring immigration they were attempting to cling the past I talked about in the article.

Dave

Gazelle #66 "hezbollah in 1982 to resist the israeli illegal occupation. " Care to comment on why Israel invaded in 1982?

#70 SFC SKI

I fail to see the point of your question, but i'd venture to say that it goes back to human cost of the creation of new israel in '48.

from wikipedia 1982 Invasion of Lebanon

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+ + + +

Reasons for the war (section)

Starting in 1968, Palestinian groups in southern Lebanon raided northern Israel, and bombarded Israeli towns with katyusha rockets.

Secondly, Israel argued it could derail the establishment of a base of operations for the PLO, from which they could mount assaults in the international arena such as the 26 December 1968 attack on an Israeli civilian airliner in Athens.

Another reason given for the invasion was as an intervention in the ongoing Lebanese Civil War to counteract Syrian influences in Lebanon, and possibly enable the establishment of a stable Lebanese leadership from the Christian population, which would strengthen a central Lebanese Army, restore security and agree to diplomatic relations with Israel.

According to former chief of Israeli military intelligence Yehoshafat Harkabi, the 1982 invasion of Lebanon was accompanied by deceit at the highest political levels. Harkarbi cites misleading statements to the cabinet by Ariel Sharon and Begin, inaccurate announcements by Israel's military spokesmen and the Likud government's gross exaggeration of terrorist acts conducted from Lebanon. Defence Minister Rabin admitted in the Knesset[citation needed] that during the eleven-month ceasefire preceding the war, Israel's northern settlements had been attacked only twice and that during this period Israel had suffered a total of two killed and six wounded from terrorist attacks. These attacks had been preceded by Israeli strikes in response to the planting of a bomb on a bus and the attack on Shlomo Argov.

Dave :

It is sufficiently clear from the foregoing that you support the rich minority of partying christians, against the poor majority of disciplined muslims. They tolerate each other very well.

i cannot be sympathetic to your calls about propaganda.

now all lebanon is against israel including walid jumblatt (druze), Gen. Aoun (christian) who has been allied with hezbollah, and Amal. they also all agree that palestine should be liberated with jerusalem as its capital. there are also interstring cross alliances, which will only be visible if you look at the nitty gritty.

See Parliamentary Elections & New Government (Lebanon in Wikipedia)

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#67 dave

well you say wikipedia will verify all your 'facts', but lets have a wikipedia url for iranis in lebanon, please. unless you made it up!

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Hezbollah in Opinion Polls
[from wikipedia Introduction para 5]

Throughout most of the Arab and Muslim worlds, Hezbollah is highly regarded as a legitimate resistance movement.[19] According to a poll released by the "Beirut Center for Research and Information" on 26 July during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hezbollah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hezbollah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.[20], while according to another poll, from July 2005, 74 percent of Christian Lebanese viewed Hezbollah as a resistance organization.[21] The Lebanese government confirmed it as a legitimate resistance against occupation.[22][23]

# 74,

The poll that was conducted by the "Beirut center for Research and Information" is very unreliable for several reasons:

1. It was conducted to 800 people only... In standards of research, "public opinion", should represent more than half the population. If you want the opinion of all 4 religions / sects, you have only considered the opinion of 200 people from each group (considering you selected your people equally...)
2. The research was only conducted in ONE area of displaced people only... Lebanon is composed of 6 districts (Mouhavazat)...
3. The research was done to DISPLACED people only... making it biased. It did not consider the opinion of those who were still at their homes (Mount Lebanon for example)... A person directly affected by an incident immediately biases the results.
4. If you clearly read the question of the questionnaire conducted regarding your point, it asks if you "support the confrontation carried out by the resistance..." and not if you support the resistance group itself. This doesnt really mean that you support Hizbollah themselves, nor their belief, nor their ideas...

N.B. Click on the [20] and access the link: it will take you to a Daily Star article which does not even mention the exact figures you have there. The only time Christians are mentioned is: "Christian support for capture operations rose from 48 percent to 55 percent, due likely to the Free Patriotic Movement's memorandum of understanding signed with Hizbullah".

Regards,
GK

It is sufficiently clear from the foregoing that you support the rich minority of partying christians, against the poor majority of disciplined muslims. They tolerate each other very well.

Partying Christians? What on earth are you talking about? Disiciplined Muslims? If they were disciplined then they wouldn't have attacked Israel in the first place.

now all lebanon is against israel including walid jumblatt (druze), Gen. Aoun (christian) who has been allied with hezbollah, and Amal. they also all agree that palestine should be liberated with jerusalem as its capital. there are also interstring cross alliances, which will only be visible if you look at the nitty gritty.

I'd love to see your sources for this universal agreement among Lebanese leaders you're talking about. Last time I checked they were generally anti-Israel, but also pretty anti-Hezbollah. Walid Jumblatt was recently quoted by CNN:

Walid Jumblatt, the political leader of Lebanon's Druze sect and a key player in the Cedar Revolution, told Lebanese broadcaster LBC that Shiites should consider whether Hezbollah "should be speaking on their behalf or on behalf of all Lebanese."

"The decision to wage war or to have peace should not be the domain of one group or one party," he said.

Shavua Tov,

May we all see a better week.

This is to both Gazelle and to the First Seargent about the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. The campaign was originally named "Peace in Galilee" with the goal of stopping Arab terror attacks there.

Ariel Sharon misled his boss, Prime Minister Begin as to his goals and intentions and ran his own war there, going far beyond the intended occupation of Lebanon up to the Litani River (which had been a strategic goal of Israel since before the State).

After the massacre of Arab refugees by Christian forces in Lebanon, Sharon was made to quit after an investigation, and Menahem Begin took responsibility for the irresponsibe actions of his defense minister. When his wife Aliza died, he also quit. He was the last decent prime minister this country had.

Dave

in #29 you claim:
the number of Shia in Lebanon prior to the Iranian influx was minuscule.

in #48 you said:
And the numbers of Iranians who have moved in there to help out is in the thousands, so it's not insignificant.

There's an already too obvious contradiction there. no the leabanese shias did not arrive from iran. So the "Iranian influx" in "thousands" (#48) was, as you point out in wikipedia, either 1000 or 1500.

the shia population in 1982 (35% shia of total about 2.5 million) was about 875,000. so the irani influx is at max 0.17%.

So there was a substantial 35% shia presence without the "miniscule" iranian influx..


in #44 I said:
iran sent people to fight israel in the early eighties..., but the numbers are insignificant.

I stand by this.

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"You can verify all my facts at Wikipedia"

Is this the same Wikipedia where Stephen Colbert's minions attempted to insert false claims about elephants? I could sign in and change all the facts you use because they don't feel right. Got any other sources?

#75 GK.

thanks for comments/analysis. the quote was from wikipedia and i provided the link, which linked back to csmonitor, beirut center, daily star, etc, as you discovered.

i am not sure by raising the stat points you are merely raising questions of their method/reliability, are you questioning the writing on wikipedia, or are you actually disputing the conclusion?

I think you havent missed the point that hezbollah is now more popular than ever among arabs and muslims in general, but also among lebanese christians even if just for "confrontation by resistance".

No I did not place my hopes or base my conclusion in the poll. stats are a convenient strut. I think the qualitative-interpretative conclusion holds.

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# 76 dave

I'd love to see your sources for this universal agreement among Lebanese leaders

oh jumblatt definitely wants to restrict hizbollah, but he supports hezbollah resistance to israel. (this is local politics ...)

from Beirut Daily Star:

1.
Jumblatt accuses Hizbullah of serving Iranian, Syrian agenda
- But PSP leader supports resistance in face of war

2. Jewish state brings war to Lebanon's Christian heartland

3. Siniora and Berri declare national day of mourning

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continued...

4. from Wikipedia (more local lebanese politics)

Lebanon - Parliamentary Elections (Alliances)

"During the first parliamentary elections held after Syria's withdrawal from Lebanon in May 2005, the anti-Syrian coalition of Sunni Muslim, Druze and Christian parties led by Saad Hariri, son of assassinated ex-Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, won a majority of seats in the new Parliament.

The combinations were interesting in that in some areas the anti-Syrian coalition allied with Hezbollah and others with Amal. They did not win the two-thirds majority required to force the resignation of Syrian-appointed President Lahoud voted for by Rafic Hariri parliamentary bloc, due to the unexpectedly strong showing of retired army general Michel Aoun's Free Patriotic Movement party in Mount Lebanon. Aoun is arguably the strongest Christian figure in the new parliament: known previously for his anti-Syrian sentiment, Aoun aligned with politicians who were friendly to the Syrians in the past decade: Soleiman Franjieh Jr and Michel Murr. Their alliance dominated the north and the Metn District of Mount Lebanon. Saad Hariri and Walid Joumblat joined forces with the two staunchly pro-Syrian Shiite movements, Hezbollah and Amal, to secure major wins in the South, Bekaa, and Baabda-Aley district of Mount Lebanon. This alliance proved temporary and the last vestiges of civility between Joumblatt, who has called for the disarmament of Hezbollah, and the Shi'ite coalition came crashing down in December 2005. On February 6, 2006, Hezbollah signed a memorandum of understanding with Michel Aoun."

Who were they resisting when they murdered the American marines?

The unqualified US support to Israel and what it was "allowed" to do in 1982.


Who were they resisting when they colluded with Syria to assassinate various Lebanese leaders?

This is highly debatable.
Looking back Rafiq Hariri was a fine balance - syria, hizbollah, druze, sunni shia christian, US israel, saudis - he played them all well.

The only obvious reason to kill him is to destabilize the internal balance. Would syria do it to grap more power inside lebanon, or out of a vendetta? not likely. Would israel or the US do it to "blame the syrians", and to "make them leave" lebanon? Very likely.

The reason for this is to "clean up hezbollah" a continuing annoyance and threat to israel, since it would no longer have the syrian protection and involvement.

Walid Jumblatt is not the only one surprised by the intensity of the Israeli overreaction to "clean up Hezbollah" and the escalation brought on by an equally eager hezbollah.

(Alo the democratic aim of the cedar revolution was misunderstood to mean that there would be less support for syria inside lebanon).

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if more and more Muslims support Al Qaeda does that make it less and less of a terrorist group - ?

what's the correct way to deal with a weak government (and a cowed populace) that materially supports a terrorist organization within its borders - ?

HizbAllah with its bloody history cannot be rehabilitated by public opinion...can it - ?

troll

# 84 troll,

george washington was not a terrorist.

al-qaeda is, and it will losesupport, i predict.
this is totally different from hamas & hibollah.

hizbollah is not.

and what about guy fawkes in the UK?

nelson mandela? biko?

what about a cia operative sent to kill castro?

or sharon in lebanon in 1982? or jenin 2004? or irgun ? or gush emunim ?

depends on your perspective, and it is not given.

'bloody' is not a criterion for 'terrorist'. that would mean gwb.

hezbolah can be "rehabilitated" :

They are freedom fighters for lebanon against mighty israel !

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There's an already too obvious contradiction there. no the leabanese shias did not arrive from iran. So the "Iranian influx" in "thousands" (#48) was, as you point out in wikipedia, either 1000 or 1500.

the shia population in 1982 (35% shia of total about 2.5 million) was about 875,000. so the irani influx is at max 0.17%.

So there was a substantial 35% shia presence without the "miniscule" iranian influx..

You're not quite following the whole process here, or else you didn't read the article, or perhaps both.

Prior to 1967 Shia were a minority population in Lebanon comprising less than 20% of the total population which was about 50% Maronite christian, 10% other Christians and Jews, and the remainder split about equally between Shia and Sunni. The majority of the population was Christian. Starting with the 67 war the Christians began to flee Lebanon in droves - we're talking close to half a million emigres - making the Shia a much larger percentage of the population by default. That's a given.

However, the Shia were poor, they were isolated in southern Lebanon and they were lacking in political and economic power. They were not overly militant and they weren't terribly troublesome. And yes, they were getting abused and taken advantage of by everyone, from the Israelis to the Palestinians to the more powerful Sunni and Christians in Lebanon, plus they were in the path of every army that went through the region.

That said, they weren't causing a hell of a lot of trouble until 1982 when they started getting backing and organization from Iran. That thousand-some Iranians who came in were NOT poor, disorganized and downtrodden Shia peasants. They were trained guerilla fighters straight out of the Ayatollah's elite guard. Those thousand men were more of dangerous than the hundreds of thousands of native Shia in Lebanon, and they provided the organization and skills to make Hezbollah an actual terrorist threat. Without their presence we wouldn't have nearly the problem which we do today. The provided training, expertise and access to Iranian weapons and money, without which Hezbollah would not be effective.

Dave

george washington was not a terrorist.

True, but this is because he fought with a real army in conventional battles against other armies. He was not a terrorist and didn't target women and children or random civilian targets.

Samuel Adams, on the other hand, WAS a terrorist. And he was pointedly discouraged from a larger political role after the revolutionary war ended.

hizbollah is not.

Incorrect. They make indiscriminate war on civilian populations and use kidnapping and assassination as means of intimidation. They are by definition terrorists. Don't make the common mistake of thinking that just because they have a political wing they aren't still terrorists.

and what about guy fawkes in the UK?

nelson mandela? biko?

what about a cia operative sent to kill castro?

or sharon in lebanon in 1982? or jenin 2004? or irgun ? or gush emunim ?

depends on your perspective, and it is not given.

What are you babbling about? What about William Wallace, Owen Glendower and Jacques de Molay? What about the Cahenna, Rob Roy and Sekundar Burke? Look, I can throw out irrelevant, but historically significant names too.

'bloody' is not a criterion for 'terrorist'. that would mean gwb.

Very true. It is not the level of destruction, but the intent. The intent of terrorists is to terrorize the civilian population rather than engage enemy forces. That's the definition of how Hezbollah works. They terrorize the poor Shia and Palestinians and terrorize the Israelis.

hezbolah can be "rehabilitated" :

They are freedom fighters for lebanon against mighty israel !

A wonderful theory, except that if they had just left Israel alone they would have been free and all of the civilians they used as shields would not have died. How do you fight for freedom by provoking an unnecessary war which gets your own people killed?

Dave

The sad part is the vast majority of the victims are indeed the people of Lebanon and not Hezbollah. I think that Israel is acting rashly and without conscience and the even more sick aspect is those who are supporting destroying Lebanon because it was "prophasized" in Revalations.

I don't think that any destruction of innocent lives is just, and I think that to excuse it for biblical reasons is even more disgusting.

My heart goes out to the innocent people dying on both sides.

I don't "support" the destruction of Lebanon because it is prophesied. I do point out that the prophecies are there, and that they are being fulfilled, regardless of our motives.
There are warnings that the Galileee will be destroyed too - not exactly on the level of prophecy, but there, in the Talmud. And bit by bit, the prophecies are comming true, regardless of what I think of them. For example, I happen to think that attacking Christian Lebanon is a huge tactical error. But I was not consulted...

There are times when fulfilling the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible seem to make eminent good sense and is good strategy - like destroying Damascus. But the political echelon here is doing what it can to avoid a conflict with Damascus - another huge tactical error, IMHO.

I think its no coincidence that the Bible was written by men, and wars are the results of penis envy by men with small willys. What is happening is happening because men are making it happen...not some magical prophecy.

The idea of Jesus is a good one and if he were real I think his love one another belief system would make him against attacking Lebanon. Of course, in the multiple Biblical translations since it was first written the message of peace and love has somehow seemed to have been lost.

#86 dave

now we agree. (without taking about iran)

" terribly troublesome "
i like the sound of that !

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dave #87 [1]

'bloody' is not a criterion for 'terrorist'. that would mean gwb.

Very true. It is not the level of destruction, but the intent. The intent of terrorists is to terrorize the civilian population rather than engage enemy forces. That's the definition of how Hezbollah works. They terrorize the poor Shia and Palestinians and terrorize the Israelis.

that does make gwb worse, if you notice.
mere terrorizing is much safer than carpet bombing.

dave #87 [2]

george washington was not a terrorist.

True, but this is because he fought with a real army in conventional battles against other armies. He was not a terrorist and didn't target women and children or random civilian targets.

Samuel Adams, on the other hand, WAS a terrorist. And he was pointedly discouraged from a larger political role after the revolutionary war ended.

thats why one has his name on a state and city with a picture on the note, and the other has both his name and picture on a beer bottle. Pure semantics. this is difference of class! official history. see for example Sam Adams - Place in History


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How do you fight for freedom by provoking an unnecessary war which gets your own people killed?

you fight for freedom by giving your neighbors justice. thats quite simple but bitter. its also inevitable. (this means for both hezbollah and esp israelis). i dont buy the endtime fantasy/ies.

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Ruvy #89

There are times when fulfilling the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible seem to make eminent good sense and is good strategy - like destroying Damascus. But the political echelon here is doing what it can to avoid a conflict with Damascus - another huge tactical error, IMHO.

and what do you think the consequences, benefits of this will be?

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I fear that israel has made to happen so much evil that it can ever be compensated, for themselves or their rivals.

that's the image i have of zionists as they have turned out - really sour..

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'mere terrorizing' - ?

what's wrong with this picture

that does make gwb worse, if you notice.
mere terrorizing is much safer than carpet bombing.

Depends on where you do it. Plus the US hasn't carpet bombed anything since Vietnam, and if you think we have, you don't know the definition of carpet bombing.

thats why one has his name on a state and city with a picture on the note, and the other has both his name and picture on a beer bottle. Pure semantics. this is difference of class! official history. see for example Sam Adams - Place in History

Samuel Adams was not lower class. He was of the merchant elite of Boston which was as priveleged in its way as Washington's Virginia planter class.

you fight for freedom by giving your neighbors justice. thats quite simple but bitter. its also inevitable. (this means for both hezbollah and esp israelis). i dont buy the endtime fantasy/ies.

So you fight for justice by killing innocent people? Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Not.

Dave

troll #97

'mere terrorizing' - ?

what's wrong with this picture

a comparison of the number of casualties on either side particularly civilians...

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So you fight for justice by killing innocent people?

No but that seems to be what hezbollah and israel (on a much vaster scale) are doing at the moment, besides the soldiers actually fighting each other.

iraq is our most recent shing example of how this should be dome properly followed by afghanistan...

actually the palestinian problem needs to be solved right now with whatever else that goes on.

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gazelle - *actually the palestinian problem needs to be solved right now with whatever else that goes on.*

for once you and I agree totally

troll

But do you agree with gazelle that the solution is the destruction of Israel and the forced removal and/or extermination of the Israeli people?

dave

No - but it might require a big sacrifice such as a return to something closer to the '47 partition map

Israel's conquests may not be able to stand

troll

The physical layout of Israel in 47 was untennable. If I was running Israel I'd do everything to prevent it.

DAve

Gazelle, quoting me, asks:

There are times when fulfilling the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible seem to make eminent good sense and is good strategy - like destroying Damascus. But the political echelon here is doing what it can to avoid a conflict with Damascus - another huge tactical error, IMHO.

and what do you think the consequences, benefits of this will be?

11:21 Report: German official underlines reservations over Mideast force (AP)

11:01 Second rocket hits Nahariya area (Israel Radio)

10:59 Arab assailant attempts to stab security guard at Afula central bus station (Haaretz)

10:53 Rocket warning sirens sounding across the north (Israel Radio)

10:44 Rocket scores direct hit on home in Nahariya (Haaretz)

10:30 IDF demolishes ex-Israeli outpost of Karkom in S.Lebanon used by Hezbollah (Itim)

10:12 Girl seriously injured in hit-and-run accident south of Ashkelon (Itim)

09:06 Author A.B. Yehoshua: Hezbollah is not terror group, but rather `terror state` (Haaretz)

08:53 Third casualty of Haifa rocket attack: Roni Rubinsky, 30, of Kiryat Motzkin (Haaretz)

08:38 IDF troops kill 14 Hezbollah men early Monday (Haaretz)

08:36 IDF company commander, two soldiers moderately wounded in Lebanon (Haaretz)

08:26 Firefighters halt use of planes due to financial difficulties (Army Radio)

07:39 Two victims of Sunday Haifa rocket strike identified (Israel Radio)

07:25 IAF strikes target bridges, roads, bunkers, rocket launch sites (Israel Radio)

07:23 In overnight raids, IAF hits 150 sites in Lebanon (Israel Radio)

07:14 IDF troops in heavy exchanges of fire in Huleh in south Lebanon (Israel Radio)

07:12 Gov`t releases names of IDF reservists killed in Sunday rocket strike (Israel Radio)

06:18 China condemns wounding of three Chinese UN peacekeepers in Lebanon (Reuters)

06:05 IAF strike in Lebanese village of Ghazzaniyeh kills six family members (Reuters)

05:49 IAF renews bombardment of Hezbollah stronghold in south of Beirut (AP)

05:21 IAF strikes north Gaza home believed used by Islamic Jihad to store weapons (Reuters)

04:23 IDF troops engage in heavy combat against Hezbollah in the village of Khule (Haaretz)

03:21 IAF launches 4 strikes on targets in Baalbek near Lebanon-Syria border (Israel Radio)

03:10 Israel to hit strategic infrastructure, symbols of the Lebanese government (Haaretz)

02:47 Medics: Palestinian driving car with Israeli plates in W. Bank shot to death (Reuters)

02:45 China, Russia say would like to amend UN draft to reflect Lebanese concerns (Reuters)

01:42 Arab League chief Moussa says Western powers sabotaged cease-fire initiatives (DPA)

01:38 Head of Egyptian group Al-Gamaa al-Islamiya denies group has joined Al-Qaida (AP)

00:49 Venezuela`s Chavez accuses Israel of `new Holocaust` (AP)

00:41 IDF troops destroy ammunition storeroom in Maroun Ras (Haaretz)

00:40 IDF tank reservists kill 6 Hezbollah fighters in Kfar Yirun (Haaretz)

00:12 Assad: UN Lebanon resolution recipe for instability (Reuters)

00:03 Israeli forces arrest Hamas lawmaker in West Bank (AP)

23:23 IAF demolishes second rocket launching site north of Tyre (AP)

22:48 IDF says it attacked Qana in S. Lebanon, destroyed launchers that fired on Haifa (AP)

22:27 29 rockets launched at Haifa over course of Sunday (Haaretz)

22:23 Sweden offers to hold international conference on rebuilding Lebanon (AP)

21:52 Jordan: Israeli occupation is the source of all wars in the Middle East (DPA)

21:30 Israeli death toll since start of Lebanon fighting is 58 soldiers, 36 civilians (Haaretz)

21:16 PMO: Haifa attack `explains essence of Israel`s battle against Hezbollah` (Haaretz)

20:57 Medics: IDF kills two Palestinians in the Gaza Strip (Reuters)

20:53 MDA: Everybody cleared from rocket-hit areas; most causalties lightly hurt (Haaretz)

20:39 12 killed in Kfar Giladi rocket attacks were IDF reservists (Haaretz)

20:34 Woman killed in rocket strike in Haifa; two critically wounded (Haaretz)

20:34 5 people wounded, one seriously, 4 moderately, in collapsed Haifa building (Haaretz)

20:31 Rescue teams complete evacuation of people from collapsed Haifa building (Haaretz)

20:14 At least 20-30 people injured in Haifa strikes; two in critical condition (Ch. 10)

20:12 People trapped in Haifa building after it collapses in direct rocket strike (Haaretz)

20:09 Haifa firefighters: At least five rockets land in crowded residential area (Haaretz)

20:06 Magen David Adom: People wounded in three locations in Haifa (Haaretz)

20:03 Rocket lands in Nahariya; no word of casualties (Haaretz)

20:03 Dozens said hurt in massive rocket strike on Haifa (Channel 2)

19:58 Rockets strike Haifa; injuries reported (Channel 2)

19:45 Egypt, Arab League and OIC condemn Israel`s arrest of Palestinian speaker (AP)

19:34 Death toll in Katyusha strike in north rises to 12 (Haaretz)

19:25 Russian diplomat discusses Lebanon crisis with Iranian ambassador (AP)

19:19 IAF destroys rocket launcher used to fire on Haifa earlier Sunday (Haaretz)

19:18 Sirens sound in Kiryat Shmona, Galilee panhandle (Israel Radio)

19:17 Border Police kills wanted Islamic Jihad militant near Jenin (Itim)

19:10 2 killed in IAF strike on car traveling close to UN aid convoy in Lebanon (Reuters)

19:06 Rockets strike Jezreel Valley; no injuries reported (Channel 2)

19:04 7 rockets strike open areas in Haifa suburbs; no injuries (Haaretz)

19:03 Olmert: Our enemy wants to attack civilians, while we avoid civilians (Israel Radio)

19:02 Sirens sound in Binyamina, Hadera and Jezreel Valley (Channel 2)

18:59 Hezbollah rocket lands in Haifa; no reports of casualties (Haaretz)

18:57 IDF troops safely detonate 20 kg bomb found at separation fence near Jenin (Itim)

18:56 Rocket-warning sirens sound in Afula, Haifa (Haaretz)

18:07 Putin urges immediate end to fighting in Lebanon in conversation with Blair (AP)

18:05 Prosecution closes extortion case against Ariel Sharon`s son Gilad (Haaretz)

17:44 Thousands march through Brussels to protest IDF campaign in Lebanon (AP)

17:37 Oxfam aid group prepares aid flight for Lebanon fighting victims (AP)

17:35 U.S. national security advisor: Want resolution on int`l force in days (Reuters)

17:14 Rice: UN draft first step to end violence, but can`t solve problems in Lebanon (AP)

17:06 Two explosions rock southern Beirut; Voice of Lebanon: IAF jets struck twice (AP)

17:00 IAF hits car traveling near UN humanitarian convoy, killing at least one (Reuters)

16:41 Syrian FM: U.S.-French cease-fire plan is `recipe for the continuation of the war` (AP)

16:33 Syrian FM says he is willing to join Hezbollah`s ranks (Reuters)

16:03 Rice: No one wants to see Israel permanently in Lebanon (Haaretz)

16:02 Rice: Important to get UN vote on Lebanon resolution in next day or two (Reuters)

16:01 Merkel: Draft UN resolution shows int`l support for ending Mideast fighting (AP)

15:37 French FM: Top priority to win Lebanese, Arab support for UN cease-fire draft (AP)

14:56 Rocket lands in open area in Haifa northern suburbs; no casualties (Haaretz)

14:40 Siren alert sounded in Haifa (Channel 10)

14:33 Senior IDF officer: Army captures one of abductors of IDF soldier Eldad Regev (Ch.10)

14:22 Three UNIFIL troops hurt by Hezbollah mortar shelling on their base (Reuters)

14:21 Lebanese Parliament Speaker: Beirut rejects draft UN cease-fire resolution (Reuters)

14:11 Rocket makes direct hit on Kiryat Shmona home (Channel 10)

13:57 Condition of Kfar Giladi casualties with serious injuries deteriorates (Ch.10)

13:41 PFLP says one of its militants is killed in IAF strike in Lebanon (AP)

13:33 More rockets land near Kfar Giladi (Channel 10)

13:27 Kfar Giladi security officer: Victims didn`t adhere to alert siren (Haaretz)

13:25 Object that sparks bomb scare at PM`s office is tape recorder (Haaretz)

13:24 Two lightly hurt in rocket attack on Upper Galilee community (Channel 10)

13:23 Katyushas land in Tiberias, Lower Galilee; no casualties reported (Haaretz)

13:09 IDF soldier moderately hurt by anti-tank missile north of Metula (Haaretz)

13:07 Officials: Bomb-scare at PM`s office was false alarm (Reuters)

13:05 PM`s office in Jerusalem evacuated after suspicious package found (Reuters)

13:02 Siren sounds in Haifa (Channel 2)

12:57 Number of fatalities in Katyusha rocket strike on Kfar Giladi rises to ten (Haaretz)

12:55 Lebanese media: IDF fired 500 mortar shells at southern Lebanon Sun. (Israel Radio)

12:50 Sirens warn of more rocket attacks on Kfar Giladi area (Channel 10)

12:45 Witnesses: Latest rocket barrage in north lasted for more than 15 minutes (AP)

12:31 Direct rocket hit on house in Kfar Giladi leaves at least 20 casualties (Haaretz)

12:25 Five people seriously wounded in Katyusha rocket strike on northern Israel (Haaretz)

12:19 Two Katyusha rockets land in open area near Acre; no injuries reported (Haaretz)

12:19 Several casualties as rocket strikes house in settlement in north (Haaretz)

12:05 Rockets hit Kiryat Shmona; no immediate report of casualties or damage (Channel 10)

12:02 Rocket lands in open area near Carmiel; no casualties or damage (Itim)

12:01 Reservist soldier moderately wounded in battles south of Tyre (Haaretz)

11:56 Siren alerts sounded across northern region (Israel Radio)

11:47 China urges Israel, Hezbollah to cease fire, calls on UN to help stem violence (AP)

11:41 Iranian official: Countries that pass sanctions on Iran `will feel pain` (Reuters)

11:27 Navy gunboat hit by Hezbollah missile returns to operational activity (Itim)

11:21 Reserves forces exchanging fire with Hezbollah south of Tyre (Haaretz)

11:01 Mother, 2 daughters killed by rocket in Arab al-Aramshe brought to rest (Israel Radio)

10:55 Iran says to expand nuclear program `as necessary,` allow UN to monitor (Reuters)

10:41 PM announces task force to address problems in rocket-stricken north (Israel Radio)

10:25 Corporal Kyril Kashdan to be buried Sunday at Haifa cemetery at 4.00 P.M. (Itim)

09:58 IDF Special Forces operating near Tyre destroy 3 rocket launchers, munitions (Haaretz)

09:33 3 Katyusha rockets land near Ma`a lot, 1 lands in Golan Heights; no injuries (Haaretz)

09:15 IDF, Hezbollah exchanging fire near Ras al-Bida, south of Tyre (Haaretz)

08:55 Alert siren heard across entire northern region (Israel Radio)

08:54 Official: 5 people killed in IAF strike in Ansar were members of same family (AP)

08:32 IDF arrests three wanted militants across West Bank (Itim)

08:20 Ramon: Israel to pursue military goals although draft UN agreement is good (AP)

08:15 IAF attacks two PFLP camps in South Lebanon; no casualties reported (AP)

07:47 IDF troops kill at least 12 Hezbollah militants in south Lebanon overnight (Israel Radio)

07:46 Security forces prevent suicide bombing after arresting Palestinian in Nablus (Itim)

07:12 Lebanese security sources: 5 people killed in IAF strike on village of Ansar (Reuters)

07:12 Second IDF reservist killed over weekend named as Dr. Igor Rothstein (Israel Radio)

06:39 IDF reservist killed in Ayta a-Shab named as Kyril Kashdan, 26, of Haifa (Israel Radio)

06:32 Report: Israeli stabbed to death in Australia by local gang member (DPA)

06:12 IAF jets hit PFLP position in southeast Lebanon, killing 2 militants (Reuters)

06:11 Lebanese sources: IAF launches 8 air strikes on eastern Bekaa valley (Reuters)

05:01 Thousands gather in Hiroshima to mark 61st anniversary of atomic bombing (Reuters)

04:28 Anti-tank fire causing most IDF casualties in Lebanon (Haaretz)

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In bold are HizbAllah attacks on Israel for roughly a 24 hour period. Until these attacks began occurring 3½ weeks ago, no Israeli soldiers were on Lebanese soil - period.

In bold and underlined is the reason for attacking and destroying Syria's capital, her major ports, and her military capability to resupply HizbAllah.

The benefits to such an action are that they prevent the resupply of HizbAllah and thus prevent the extension of Iranian power to the Meditteranean.

We are at war. In war, you fight to win. If you do not fight to win, you lose - and you die.

RUVY: How do you think the IDF is doing? Personally, I'm disappointed by their slow progress.

Chris, this is no accident. We're being set up to lose. This is not because HizbAllah is an easy enemy to defeat. The intent is not to defeat this enemy and to bring in foreign forces. This is the treaonous action of the political echelon in Jerusalem obeying their masters in Washingon and Brussels.

I'm sorry. The grammar was not clear in the previous post.

The intent of the political echelon is not to defeat this enemy, but to bring in a foreign power to control southern Lebanon.

The army fights and loses boys, but the goal is not victory - were it, Damascus and Latakia would already be in flames, and the eastern routes in Syria connecting to Kurdistan would be strafed up already.

The fighting in southern Lebanon would still be difficult. This is not a bunch of untrained Egyptians throwing doffing their boots and fleeing in the sand because they do not know how to make their Soviet-made tanks roll in reverse...

#104 - untenable - ?

perpetual low level conflict and open war in defense of Israeli conquests is untenable...

why should Arabs accept the state of Israel - ?

troll

This back and forth indeed is interesting....

G-d forbid we should empathise with Israel's 'enemies' - trying to get a feel for their needs

and I repeat the question - why should Arabs accept Israel

got any answer other than her raw military power - ?

perhaps the timely solution does rest in the superstition and magic of a new Sanhedrin

troll

Troll,

Your question was addressed to Dave. I await his answer.

I await an answer from anyone

Because the Jews were there first. Nanabooboo!

I guess

#102 dave:

But do you agree with gazelle that the solution is the destruction of Israel and the forced removal and/or extermination of the Israeli people?

hey, i dont agree with "gazelle" here. this is what you want gazelle to think.

thats not my solution. coexistence whether side by side or in a whole (country) are absolutely fine with me ...i imagine thats not yours.

best

105 Ruvy

shebaa farms. israel never left from that part of lebanon.

best

Shebaa Farms was ruled as Israel by the UN - you know, the Useless Nothings with their toilet paper resolutions and conventions. That's an acre of land you're talking about here.

That's the flimsiest excuse I've seen for a 10,000 missile build-up that I can thnk of. The girls who didn't want to sleep with me had better excuses! My wife can do better!!

This was never about Shabaa Farms or about Lebanon, Gazelle. It was always about the destruction of Israel - from "A" to "Zed". HizbAllah is about at "W" right now - as in whupped ass. The curious question is whose ass is getting whupped...

Now for some news from the front - courtesy of Rabbi Rachamim Pauli.

Hell on wheels. 3 dead soldiers, 160 rockets and more

From my son Asher: Monday, August 07, 2006
History repeats: Blown up once, blown up twice
I just got back from southern Lebanon. The eight-hour mission turned into a 14-hour one.

Veteran cameraman Neil Hallsworth, who probably has been on more embeds in Iraq than any other journalist, informed me that our vehicle's cramped quarters made this the most hellacious embed he's ever been on.

Whoever designed the Puma, the Israeli transport in which we were riding, needs to be forced to spend 14 hours in one. Anyway, enough griping.

The mission turned out to be interesting. The combat engineers with whom we were embedded were ordered to go into southern Lebanon and take out a Hezbollah position at Karkoum.

It had been one of the main command outposts in southern Lebanon. It had actually been an Israeli outpost back when they occupied Lebanon. When they left, they blew it up. Hezbollah rebuilt it. Now the unit I was with was supposed to go back in and blow it up again. History repeats.

We left under cover of darkness, but it was dawn by the time we reached the bunkers at Karkoum. Things moved quickly once we exited the Puma.

Israeli soldiers discovered a cache of anti-tank weapons, which Hezbollah has used to devastating effect. The soldiers rigged those to explode with the same C4 explosive they were using on all the structures.

The blast was massive, though we couldn't actually see it because we had to take cover back inside the Puma.

After the dust cleared, armored bulldozers moved in and leveled what remained. (That's nothing they probably gave him a good driver so that he would not get car sick or do Tshuvah, you can imagine the drivers I had. - RP)

---------------------------------------------

DEBKAfile's military sources disclose: Hizballah's rocket offensive against Israel is orchestrated from a rear command located in the Syrian town of Anjar

While Israeli officials keep on insisting that Syria must be kept out of the conflict, the fact is that the Assad regime is already in it up to their ears - with a leading role in the Hizballah rocket attacks on northern Israel.

The command which coordinates the pace of those attacks is located at the Anjar base of the Syrian Army's 10th Division opposite the Lebanese town of Az Zabdani. It is manned by Iranian and Hizballah officers, who take their orders from a Syrian military intelligence center in Damascus to which Iranian Revolutionary Guards intelligence officers are attached. It is headed by a general from one of Syria's surface missile brigades. This joint command is provided with the most up-to-date intelligence and electronic data available to Syria on targets in Israel and IDF movements. The timing and tempo of Hizballah rocket strikes are set according to that information.

To keep the rockets coming without interruption, the joint Hizballah-Syrian-Iranian command is also responsible with keeping Hizballah supplied with an inflow of rockets and launchers. They use smuggling rings to slip the supplies into Lebanon by mule and donkey which ply the 5,000-7,000 feet mountain paths that straddle the Syrian-Lebanese frontier.

A senior Israeli officer told DEBKAfile: We can go on bombing Lebanon for many weeks, but that will not stop the rockets..

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F-16 warplanes shot the Mersad-1 (picture) down at a low altitude 10 km out at sea northwest of the Haifa coast. The drone is capable of carrying 45 kilos of explosives, but this flight was apparently sent over Israel for the first time to test the permeability of its air space for further drone incursions. Hizballah is known to have received 8 drones from Iran. F-16 and pilotless craft were busy over Haifa bay after the incident in case Hizballah sends more such craft, this time loaded with ordnance.

Three Israeli soldiers killed in clashes in Bin Jubeil, S. Lebanon, Monday. One has been identified as 1st Sgt. Malki Moshe Amabo, 22, from Lod

Six Hizballah were killed in the fighting. Early Monday, Day 27 of the war, an Israeli officer and two soldiers were injured in heavy clashes with Hizballah in Houla village in the Eastern Sector of South Lebanon. Four Hizballah killed in the action.

Israeli fighter jets overnight struck targets in northeast Lebanon, road links from the Beqaa to Syria. Twelve Israeli soldiers were injured in battle in south Lebanon Sunday, two seriously; 30 Hizballah were killed, prisoners taken.

160 rockets fell today injuring 5 people but damage was great. More and more people fleeing Kiriat Shemona.

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'World Opinion' is Worthless
By Dennis Prager


If you are ever morally confused about a major world issue, here is a rule that is almost never violated: Whenever you hear that "world opinion" holds a view, assume it is morally wrong.

And here is a related rule if your religious or national or ethnic group ever suffers horrific persecution: "World opinion" will never do a thing for you. Never.

"World opinion" has little or nothing to say about the world's greatest evils and regularly condemns those who fight evil.

The history of "world opinion" regarding the greatest mass murders and cruelties on the planet is one of rele