I am unable to see the downside...unless, of course, Indian Muslim lunatics get ahold of this technology and sell it to terrorists...

But other than that...

You know what bugs me about this deal? We can build a whole bunch of reactors in India but no one will let us build any new ones here in the US. All these years, our nuclear reactor technology has been improving, and the newest reactor we have in operation is over 20 years old. Ridiculous. Hell, worse - given the oil and terrorism situation, it's treasonous.

Dave

Before the Bush hating liberal morons from DU and DailyKos come over and whine about Bush giving away nuclear bombs to India (you know, that country of rat worshippers, beggars and snake charmers..[all of who are apparently stealing Aemrican call center jobs these days (remember to blame Bush for that as well)] ) , I want you to go through this Indo-US Nuclear Deal Primer...

Indo-US nuclear Deal for dummies.

No.This deal is not about nuclear weapons. I repeat, US is not giving away nuclear bombs to India or any technology that can be used to make nuclear bombs. That India will have, always had, with or without this deal. But it is about expanding the use of nuclear energy in India, with technology and raw materials from abroad.


Opponents of this deal make the mistake of taking both India and the US government (aka Bush) for idiots. Bush knows India will hold on to nuclear weapons no matter what , atleast as long as India's hostile neighbors China and China's vassal state Pakistan, have nukes of their own. So instead of attempting like Clinton to arrogantly and ultimately impotently, roll back India's nuclear program, which was never going to work, instead of antagonising a potentially solid ally in future cold wars against a potential superpower China, Bush has this idea of a deal by which India's nuclear program adds strategic value to the US.

Accordingly, India separates its nuclear plants into civilian and military. The civilian units, whose purpose will be to generate power, will be under IAEA jurisdiction, while the military units will be happily churning out nuclear bombs. Haha. Inda was always a nuclear power, but denied recognition. This deal changes that.

What happens if this deal is scuttled ? Same as before. India goes on stockpiling nuclear weapons. What happens if this deal goes through ? India goes on stockpiling nuclear weapons, as before. Only diffeerence is, GE or some French company might get some billionaire $$$ contract to build nuclear power plants in India.


Unfortunately, the non-proliferation 'experts' simply dont seem to get it.

It's a done deal and I don't have any real problem with it. But since Raj decided to paint me as a drooling idiot, with a prejudice against him and his rat worshipping ways, I'll play devil's advocate on this one.
You raised an interesting point about the nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan in your little rant there, Raj. Won't this deal create an even stronger desire for more bombs and nuclear tech in the Pakistanins? Granted, the US can't stop this nuclear arms race, but considering the spill over has already lead to two minor nuclear crises (now there's a relative term) in the Persian Gulf (Iran dealt with A.Q.) and the Sea of Japan (so did N Korea), and given the vast array af assets America can offer to build a relationship with India, does it really make sense for us (the US) to build our relationship with India by dumping more fuel rods on a fire thats already leapt to other parts of the world?

SS...forget Pakistan. You have no idea how much we Indians hate this hyphenation, India-Pakistan. Think China. To India, China is the real threat.And India wont rest till we have as many nukes as China. The 'arms race' began way back in the 1960s when China tested its first nuclear bomb. It escalated when China transferred nuclear technology to Pakistan and US and others looked the other way. This is the reality.

And please read my primer 'Ind-US nuclear deal for dummies' again. This deal is not about nuclear bombs. Its about nuclear power.

It's a rat race, then, not an arms race, and I believe Indians worship them while the Chinese eat them.

Hmmm - Battle Royale, Shaolin Style, with Bollywood beats!

Well, call me a skeptic Raj, but, occasionally governments have been known to say 'peaceful purposes' when their intentions, or at least some of their intentions, are actually military.
But you're probably right, this deal is probably civilian only. You've convinced me. Have you convinced Musharef? The Chinese aren't stupid either; every bomb their client holds is one on their side, and a proxy nuclear saber they can rattle without taking the heat, if it comes to that. You think the Chinese are saying 'this new deal between the Indians and the US, I wouldn't worry about it' to the Pakistanis? I'd imagine their spinning plenty of worst case scenarios, backed up by 'intelligence' the Chinese have access to but the Pakis don't...
I guess corruption and spilled nuclear secrets can be a problem anywhere, but we know the Pakis can't keep nuclear secrets to themselves, and they're definetly a player in this race, and civilian or not, this move is part of the nuclear race in the region, and there is a military dimension to this race.
If we can't stop this, and I'd agree that we can't, but we have other perks to offer India, which I'd think you'd have to agree that we do, why should we get involved in this? Unless we get more eyes and ears in your program to make sure it stays more secure than the Pakis, what's in it for us.

SS... Again - you refuse to read my primer for dummies.

But you dont get it, do you ? US is not doing any favors to India. US is simply recognising the reality that India is a nuclear power, freeing up companies like GE to earn multi-billion dollar contracts by building nuclear power plants in India. India owes nothing to US. Its nothing but a business transaction.


What does this deal have to do with Pakistan wanting to expand its nuclear arsenal with help from China ? They have been doing so for the last 15 years, at furious pace. So whats changed ?

US does not get 'any eyes or ears' over our nuclear program, that would be an attack on our sovereignty, and is not a part of the deal. Only our civilian nuclear units will be placed under IAEA safeguards. Rest are top secret and will remain so.

That is what this deal is all about. If you dont like it - not my problem.

Also - India was never a proliferator of nuclear technology unlike Paksitan. If you dont believe me, ask your President.

Raj, didn't mean to imply India was the proliferator, just that we have an interest in nuclear security.
The weakness in your Primer for Dummies - and this won't go away however many times you vaguely insult me by refering me to the Primer for Dummies - is that this particular business transaction is rife with political overtones. You can't make a deal to become involved with the nuclear program of a country that is itself involved in a regional three way nuclear arms race, and then just cancel out those political ramifications by saying, "Oh, but it's just for civilian use. We'll even let the IAEA in to verify." Do you believe that arguement when Iran makes it? What makes you think India's rivals, Pakistan and China, will believe it when India and the US use it. Oh, and speaking of Iran, they're in the neighborhood and may be joining the club too, right?
As you point out, more nukes, spreading nukes, a complicated web of old and modern rivalries, all the rivals with nukes already or desperately trying to get them. That arms race has been going on in South Central Asia for years already. There's not much the US can do, except try to at least delay Iran untill they get less insane leadership.
But, maybe, you can see where someone from the US could look at all this and say 'Jeez, I hope we're not taking the first step towards getting obligated in a complex regional rivalry, complete with wild cards like espionage and terrorism, where a balance of power is maintained based on a complicated system of alliances and nuclear deterents.'

BTW, the reason I'm not personally that concerned about this deal is that the Indian gov seems to be taking the right steps to defuse this regional rivalry. But I can see the arguement that we should stay nuetral in case it flares up in the future.

SS you are right in that this deal will shake up south asian geopolitics to an extent.
I just read Raj's "dummies" document which in my opinion is a precious load of shit. His contention that the only benificiaries are GE, etc may be true, Indians by and large will lose out on this deal.
There is a reason nuclear power is not pursued with such glee here in the US and thats because of the inherent risks involved.
Ofcourse in our very typical Indian one-upmanship we have decided to shelve the semblance of independance we had in our foreign policy and have welcomed Uncle Sam into our midst with open arms. Judging by the history of the 20th century and the early part of the 21st (!!) that is probably the biggest mistake we can ever make.

By the way, I find the hypocritical attitude of the non-proliferation lobby and some of the democ-rats ( who seem to sink lower than the pubes every day ) highly amusing. Commonsense , it seems, is in short supply.
Also, Muslim bashing is not funny and is cowardly. Im Hindu and grew up with Muslims in India and we never felt we were different from each other.

The US is the number one consumer of electricity. Why aren't they building those reactors here where they are needed?

Stupid head-in-the-sand no nukes freaks.

#3: "India you know, that country of rat worshippers, beggars and snake charmers"....I think the gentleman suffers from a deep inferioty complex regarding his country, culture and religion.

Yes Aaman, we Indians can never beat China. (sigh) We pray to rats. They roast them. We offer milk to snakes. They swallow them up like noodles. Oh, we can never beat the Chinese. Ha ha ha ha....

Yes - we worship Elephants and Rats. Isn't that enough to indicate that we treat every living being with respect whether big or small - unlike US which has built its wealth by squeezing small and weak countries