I had him in my dead pool, so I'm ... happy?

I fear this will merely be fodder with which to fuel the fires of Bush et al in pounding their chests and plunging deeper in to unwarranted violence. Do not get me wrong, the "Zarqawi" that has been introduced to me through the media surely deserves to be purged from this earth, and good riddance, but I can't help but think how convenient for Bushco and the Republiscam Extremes. Are we seeing the first in a long succesion of staged victories running up to November, much like Daddy and friends did in the 90's?

The main drawback to the death of al-Zarqawi is the likelihood some people will see him as a "martyr" because he was killed by U.S. forces. For that reason, I'd have preferred to see him captured, put on trial, and spending the rest of his natural life behind bars.

Of course, that's not to say I'll particularly mourn the loss of a man who helped plan and coordinate the intentional and premeditated killings of so many innocent people.

Even if this operation is part of some propaganda scheme by the Bush administration, that's a small price to pay for the removal of such a malignant and dangerous criminal as al-Zarqawi from the human population.

Just a thought from a cynic: maybe some of the boys loyal to bin Laden leaked the info to US forces - who then did in Al Zarqawi? That is how the Shabak works here wqhen they want to get rid of a Jew they themselves don't really want to kill...

Use, abuse lead, mislead, wheels within wheels...

Like Zarqawi even existed in Iraq in the first place. His "death" won't mean anything anyway, the violence will continue until the Americans leave Iraq. Another "corner turned" in Iraq for the American Imperial forces, desperate for any kind of justification for their illegal invasion of Iraq.

And what timing of Zarqawi's "death". Just when the corrupt and evil Bush regime was under intense pressure to distract the world from the murders of innocent Iraqis in Haditha.

Oh, yea, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you too.

Getting inconvenient people out of the way is good politics, generally speaking.

I am just reading an intelligence assessment of Zarqawi's death, and the following makes relevant reading:

It would be too early to say whether he was really killed by the Americans in an air strike as claimed by them or he was killed by the Iraqi resistance fighters, who had reportedly developed differences with him, and his body thrown away to be subsequently recovered by the American and Iraqi forces. The definitive truth relating to his death would never be known.
Presuming that he died, as claimed, in a US air strike, this would have been possible only on the basis of pin-point intelligence, which could have come either from technical gadgets (TECHINT) or human sources (HUMINT). Even if the successful operation was completely based on TECHINT, the Americans and the Iraqi Government would make it appear as if human sources also played a role in order to create suspicions among the terrorists about a possible mole in their midst.

5. Even if this operation was based purely on TECHINT, it is a major tactical success for the US-led coalition. If HUMINT had also played a role, the significance of the success would be greater.

Zarqawi was not a leader of iconic proportions. He did not command in the Islamic world the kind of respect which bin Laden seems to command. His anti-Shia massacres had made even many Sunnis uncomfortable. Any violent reactions to his death would, therefore, remain limited. He was the man who was motivating the foreign jihadis operating in Iraq and co-ordinating their operations. He had no visible successor, with equal authority and high profile. That does not mean that his death, if true, could mark the beginning of the end of the Al Qaeda in Iraq.

10. We would probably see in Iraq a denouement similar to what we have been seeing in Saudi Arabia, where every time a leader, considered important, is killed by the security forces, another person takes up the leadership and keeps the jihad going. The more the leaders killed by the Saudi security forces, the more the new leaders who have come up and rallied the cadres around and motivated them to keep the jihad going.

11. Two other questions arise. Would the death of Zarqawi mark the end of the anti-Shia virulence? Would the Iraqi resistance-fighters come to the forefront and impose discipline and control over the foreign terrorists? Not immediately.

12. Bin Laden and Zawahiri must be worried about their own security. If Zarqawi's death is admitted by Al Qaeda, whatever be the circumstances under which he died, this will be a shot in the arm for the US and the Iraqi security forces and intelligence. It is not victory, but it is one important step forward. They are no longer groping in the dark. There is a flicker of light to cheer them.

Nice job on getting on top of this story, Aaman. Will be interesting to see what impact this development has.

Ruvy...does it matter...a dead scum bag is a dead scum bag...

I hope is last minutes of life felt like the sky was burning and falling on him....death to the enemies of peace, democracy and the American peopel and their allies...

So if you're not for 'the American people and their allies', you cant be for peace and democracy?

JOM

I never said, "it doesn't matter." If the bum is dead, good! He's no friend of mine either. But, I'm just a bit of a cynic that's all. This is the Middle East, after all.

Ruvy, how are the Israeli papers and intelligence reporting this news?

Aaman, who (or what) promulgated the intelligence assessment you quote in #6?

THat's by B Raman, former intelligence chief and Cabinet Secretary in the Indian government, now a policy/security maven - The assessment is now up on his group's website (I get an early email feed)

Great news if only because he was such an evil murdering bastard. And I heard it first here on BC.

Probablu won't stop the terror in Iraq, but it's encouraging.

And tommyd you really are a classic example of someone made stupid by ideomania.

Fabulous! Kudos to the Bush Administration! See that you Liberal Commie Scumbags! The Conservatives prevailed -- Christianity has won yet another battle by annihilating one of Islam's most violent, dangerous men. Freedom and peace shall reign in the Middle East with this man's demise.

Oh, buy the way, we're winning against the fags who want to destroy the fabric of American family life by getting married, too! Conservative values shall bring terrorism and fags to their knees. It's a glorious week to be a Bushite.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Is it in the liberal handbook to hate America and love terrorists. You guys have more sympahty for them do you do for Americans not only in Iraq but in other countries that are killed by these people. Just remember, Canada which are wimps like the rest of you liberals were going to be attacked. Ask yourselves why? Answer: Terrorists just want to kill everybody.

That's right. Brand me a liberal. Demonize me. Make me look anti-American. Ron, Christ called. He wants His cross back.

Hey Silas, I don't have to make you look anti-American, you smell of it. If you hate this country so much, go to Canada.

it's great that this guy was sent to meet allah.

now it's time to move on to the number 2 guy, whom they call "number 2."

Yes, Sal, but who does Number 2 work for?

Lumpy and Ron, upstanding members of the 101st Keyboarders Fighting Brigade. Striking down "evil liberals" who think wars based on lies are morally repugnant. "Evil Liberals"=anyone who thinks all the slaughtering going on in Iraq is worthless and counterproductive.

Good job guys. With your reasoning and logic, we have about 900,000 million more Muslims to kill before we even get to those "evil" homegrown "liberals". Then, we shall have our Utopian Paradise!

Hey guys, is it too late for me to switch sides and get on your winning team?

900,000 million? How many zeros is that? Are there really THAT many muslims in the world???

Hey Tommyd, I find it interesting that you use a broad brush to state all Muslims are evil. Maybe if liberals would stop bending over and stand up to these people, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about these terrorists.

I meant, 900 million Muslims. Ya know, 1 billion minus the 100,000 killed in Iraq equals 900 million. So sue me.


Ron, you know what's funny about your kind of Reich Wing Nut, is that you claim the Muslims 8000 miles away must killed for America's "security" but meanwhile the Muslim community down the street in Anywhere, America are the "good ones". Not saying you personally believe this, but that's the message one gets from spending anytime on a Reich Wing blog.

Tommyd, I don't think all Muslims are bad either here in America, the Middle East or anywhere in the world. However, I do think there are Muslims (small percent) that are evil and all they want is for death and destruction around the world. What I can't understand is whay liberals don't seem to understand that. The left wing blogs seem to think if we don't leave the USA we will nver be attacked.

Again bad math: 1 billion - 100,000 = nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred thousand

I was never good at math, but I'm great at sniffing out bull-doody.

A human being has two 500lbs BOMBS dropped on his house and miraculously his fingerprints and face are intact.

As much as Zarqawi deserved to die, it's amazing the credit he's being given. Like, he solely was responsible for all the insurgent attacks. He was just another nutcase inflamed to jihad because of the aggression and hypocrisy of US policy in the Middle East. According to the logic of the Reich supporters, therefore, the only way to end terr'rism is to kill everyone over there, because when the US kills civilians, other civilians will take up arms against us. It's that simple.

"The left wing blogs seem to think if we don't leave the USA we will nver be attacked."

Ron, I can't speak for all liberals, but I definitely don't think that liberals believe what you desribe above. However, we can be certain that US policy in the Middle East as a whole ensures that we will be hated and evetually attacked again, especially if the US remains the occupier in Iraq.

Americans may think that the double standards and hypocrisy that the US exhibits in the Middle East doesn't matter, but it matters to Muslims in the area. Liberals believe that the issues of Israel-Palestine and American double standards (like supporting dictators in Pakistan, Saudia Arabia and Egypt, while demanding regime change in Iraq, Iran and Syria)MUST BE ADDRESSED diplomatically. Liberals see that resolving issues of terrorism via war is futile and destructive to all sides. The US has to be bold enough to take the first step in rapprochment with the region.

Tommyd, you must be stuck on slow. The way to end terrorism is to spread democracy. Hint! Democratic societies don't run planes in building and kills thousands of lives. The reason he is getting attention is because OBL called him the Prince of A.Q.

Ron sez...
*The way to end terrorism is to spread democracy*

ummm..incorrect...

i cite as examples the IRA and Timothy McVeigh to disprove your axiom...try again


Excelsior?

Gonzo, what is your solution for terrorism? This would also need to apply to the rest of the world since no country is safe from terrorist acts. This would also include your pacifists friends in France and Canada.

Gonzo, just a reminder. The IRA and Timothy are not state sponsored terrorists.

Um Ron, in case you haven't figured it out yet Al-Qaeda is not, nor ever was, state sponsored by Iraq. Spreading "democracy" at the point of a gun is doomed to fail. What you'll get in that case is a full blown totalitarian police state, something similiar to Iraq under Saddam.

Tommyd, Does the country Lybia sound familiar. Does the fact that Egypt voted a female in office ring a bell. In case you forgot, there were millions of people who went to vote for democracy in Iraq. Since other countries in the Middle East want democracy, it will spread like cancer. Maybe if Liberals would have more confidence in the Muslim world instead of faking support for them, it will work.

well Ron, the Canadiens seem to be doing ok according to this weeks headlines...at least so far

as for any kind of unioversal "solution" to terrorism....

sorry to break it to you...there is NONE

each case must be dealt with on it's ow merits...what solves the problems with the IRA will not work with Basque seperatists or Mujahadeen

no simple answers in the real world, 10 second soundbytes cannot solve complex problems

and, for the record...since you obviously know shit about me...i'm NO pacifist

Excelsior?

Gonzo, It is nice to see you have a pro-active solution for fighting terrorism. Sitting around doing nothing and waiting has done wonders for us. 1993-9/11/01.

Keep telling yourself your not a pacifist and 1 day it may come true.

Ron, you obviously have no fucking clue, as i have stated previously..

now, read what i typed again...i clearly stated that EACH sect of terrorist activity has to be dealt with as a seperate issue...that there is no single or simple answer...no matter what the neocon Rovians have programmed you to believe

as for my own "pacifism"...might i invite you to come up to Maine sometime so this veteran ex-martial arts instructor can demonstrate the difference between Wisdom and the proper use of Force and pacifism?

here's a dollar, buy a fucking clue...otherwise STFU and sit down

k?

tnx...

my Apologies to Aaman for dirtying up his excellent article...i'll come back with something more on point in a little while

Excelsior?

Answering Aaman at comment #11:

Google Israel News was silent. While the Zarqawi story had front and center on the US version of Google News, there was no story on the death of the poor fellow on Google Israel. The site is a joke!

Walla, another Hebrew site, had a story "Who Was Al Zarqawi?" and a story detailing the death of 26 in a bomb blast after the elimination of Al Zarqawi.

Haaretz On-Line Hebrew edition had a story "The Elimination of Al Zarqawi: an expression of cooperation between the United States and Jordan", and covered it in detail. Apparently tis was a celebratory article. There was an additional story on the deaths of 26 people in a bombing in Baghdad.

One fellow wrote a comment in English (I fixed up his spelling):

"Jordan is afraid from Democracy like Shirkan from fire. There is a silent agreement (or a written one, who knows?) that if Jordan helps US , the last one [the US] will leave Jordan alone with their "liberal ideas" about democracy. Melman is right , if someone else can do the dirty work for you , violating any code of human rights, why not? This attitude of [the] US is seen every where. In genral US demands human rights but out of their territory they act like any other barbaric nation."

Sound familiar?

The English on-line Haaretz carried this piece from the AP:

Last update - 11:38 08/06/2006
Al-Zarqawi masterminded some of the bloodiest suicide attacks in Iraq
By The Associated Press

They were talking about this a lot on the Army Radio while I was riding the bus (buses in Israel have radios that broadcast the news) but I wasn't able to catch any of it...

Hope this helps a bit, Aaman...

Now that I attempted to report the news, I'll blather my opinions.

The bin Laden family has always been a friend to the Bushes. I would not be surprised if Al Zarqawi was a emerging as a rival to Osama bin Laden and Bush wanted to do the relative of his friends a favor.

"Sitting around doing nothing and waiting has done wonders for us. 1993-9/11/01."

As opposed to '79 thru '88, when we gave money and weapons to the ISI,and the the ISI and CIA helped turn the international violent jihad dreamed of by some Egyptian and Saudi fanatics into a reality, all so we could use them to fight Soviets in Afghanistan and they (the ISI)could use them to stir up trouble in Kashmir.
Doing 'something' isn't enough, Ron. Generally you have to consider the consequences.

Though in the case of a Zarqawi, I'd say good riddance.

Um Ron, in case you haven't figured it out yet Al-Qaeda is not, nor ever was, state sponsored by Iraq. Spreading "democracy" at the point of a gun is doomed to fail. What you'll get in that case is a full blown totalitarian police state, something similiar to Iraq under Saddam.

Which, unlike the U.S., Great Britain, Spain, India or the current Iraq, didn't have terrorism. Hmmm... Maybe Ron is on to something: spreading totalitarian police statism under the guise of "democracy" in order to prevent terrorism.

Oh Aaman, go to Debkafile for some kind of intelligence assessment of this. They are not much on their predictions, but are usually good on their assessments.

Gonzo and Jr. It is amazing the hatred you guys have for your own country. Just remember it is this country that allows you to be traitors. Gonzo, each terroist act must be dealt with indidually, well I prefer to deal with the terroist before the terroist act happens. Also if you took your dollar and bought a crystal ball, you might be able to see what a democratic Middle East might do for the rest of the world. Gonzo, why don't take you ex veteran martial-arts rear end and flex that I'm so tough attitude towards people trying to kill us. Jr, I find it amazing that you seem to fear

Ron...i spent my time serving my country...how about you?

that alone shows the depth of my caring about my Nation, i proved i was willing to die to defend it, so spare me the bullshit about how much i "hate" my country...far from it

now, since you appear to be a believer in crystal balls, it just shows how delusional your opinions actually are...

and far from "flexing"..i was merely demonstrating my willingness to demonstrate the differences between pacifism and self defense...since you seem to have no idea about either definition...

now, let's talk about you for a moment...
1)have you served in the military?
2) do you have a poli/sci degree and some state department experience in international affairs?
3) what is YOUR plan to solve "terrorism" once and for all?
4)do you see any difference between islamic terrorism, what the IRA did in the past, the Basque seperatists and our Founding Fathers against Britain?...if so, describe the differences

that should get you started....but ii'm betting you just turn on some more Limbaugh and tune out what passes for grey matter in that skull of yours

looking forward to talking with you more.....

Excelsior?

Hey Ron,

How much do you know about the Middle East and the Arab world in particular? Do you have any clue how these societies work? Perhaps you would like to elucidate for this Middle Easterner how any country is supposed to impose its values on another culture and make it work without getting a violent kick in the teeth.

I have some ideas, but i'd rather jear ideas from a patriotic American like yourself...

Just so you know, there is one fellow on this list who is presently serving in Iraq. Hopefully he is reading some of this and can intelligently comment on your proposals.

The way to end terrorism is to spread democracy.

The way to end terrorism is non-existent.

I am 34 year old Doctor, so my degree was in medicine. No I have not served in the military but my saving lives is in a hospital and not on the field. I commend your service. However your attitude of America as the evil empire is disgraceful. I don't know what will ever be the answer for the Middle East and terroisim, but blaming America for all it woes is not the answer. The hatred they have for us is not a coventional hatred and can not be dealt with in a normal manner, but once again, we have to do something and start somewhere. Yes there is a difference between the founding fathers/Britian and Islamic terrorism. 1 major fact is the Islamic terrorists don't care about dying, a part of their hatred is based on a warped view of God. As for Ruvy, I guess America can follow Jerusalem/Palestine answer to resolving problems since that has gone so well. What is it that you guys are afraid of if this actually works? I also can't seem to understand that if the Iraqi's still wanted Saddam, they would have put him on the ballot and voted for him each time they did.

ok Ron..now you have entered the world of "i just think this guy is bullshitting"....but i'll humor you and continue...

please show me where i've blamed America for anything?...good luck, more than once you have tried to ascribe "america hating" towards me, hence my ire...stick to shit you know about...you will go further that way, and might someday be taken seriously when you type

when you say things like *1 major fact is the Islamic terrorists don't care about dying,*...you show your ignorance...

when you say shit like *a part of their hatred is based on a warped view of God.*...you show your arrogance and bigotry

i notice you didn't supply any answers to solving terrorism either...

so you are still batting .000

good luck, next time try harder

Excelsior?

Arch Conservative, I don't recall attacking you personally. As I recall, that's a specialty of your fascist idiotic brothers at FreeRepublic who see a "liberal" under every bed and need Father Bush to protect them. Ooooo, Preznit Bush, save us, save us, the "evil liberals" at DailyKos want to turn America into a peaceful country, oooo, ooooo, we want war, war, war forever and ever!!!! (but of course, the actual war fighting is always the other guy's problem never those "arch conservatives").

Take a hike and get a clue.

The way to end terrorism is to spread democracy.

The way to end terrorism is non-existent.

The way to end terrorism is to kill all the terrorists.

Ron,

You will not hear me wasting my breath or Blog Critics' bandwidth on "Israel/Palestine" baloney. If you want to get an idea of who is an evil empire and why, read my piece at Blog Critics called Dependence Day and focus on comments 10 and 11.

Ending Arab Terrorism 101:

Class is now in session. Arab men are scared shitless of having their balls cut off. So, when someopn from a village goes and commits a terrorist act, you send an undercover force to the village, kidnap the head honcho and castrate him. When he is all healed, you send him back to the village with a two fold message. Any terrorism from that village/clan will result in every single male being castrated, and all the women sent to a different clan. End of problem.

Class dismissed.

I don't think that fear is unique to Arab men Ruvy.

You think he's going to tell everyone he got his little zarqawi's cut off voluntarily ruvy?

You'd prob have to drop him off naked for all the village to see. Get the message across better that way don't you think?

Care to flesh out your plan in a full length article here, Ruvy? I imagine it could stimulate some fascinating comments.

Bing, you're right. The Russians did something very similar to this in a village in Lebanon and dropped the head honcho naked as a jaybird. And there was never a problem from that village again.

Sheeesh! First, let me go on the record as stating unequivocally I'm a liberal--if by that you yahoos with big mouths and nothing of value to say consider that a person who doesn't do shoutdowns of meaningless rhetoric a "liberal."
Ron, I've looked all through my offical liberal handbook (even used the super-secret decoder ring) and I can't find for the life of me the part where we "hate democracy and love terrorists." Please tell me what page it's on--or maybe you have a newer edition than me.
And Arch-- why hasn't the NSA already hired you to clean up all the evils lurking under every American bush?
Do either one of you guys have any knowledge of American history whatsoever?--or did you get all your political savvy from Space Ghost?
It must be heartening to Ruvy that you know more about the Middle East than he does--after all, he just lives there.
You can spout rhetoric and hatred all you want, but until you've been in a life or death situation, until you've actually put your life on the line for something, anything-- you, my friends are just blowing very weak smoke.

There is nothing to flesh out Victor, if you'll pardon the pun. Arab women are subject to being raped if they are in a clan not their own. It keeps folks in their own clans, I guess. I don't think I have to explain too much about the castration part, do I?

for Ruvy...

so much for the moral high ground, the Geneva Conventions or adherance to civilization...

by your "rules" it seems the only answer is to become worse monsters than those you would fight

try reading Sun Tzu's Art of War for much better answers

Excelsior?

Gonzo, there are some who would argue that there's no point in going to war unless the situation is serious enough that you can commit to 'total war' with no holds barred. Under that argument we never would have gone into Iraq, but if we had made the commitment the war would already be over and the country would be nothing but smoking rubble and burnt corpses.

Dave

"Gonzo, there are some who would argue that there's no point in going to war unless the situation is serious enough that you can commit to 'total war' with no holds barred."
- Dave Nalle

...typed bravely on his keybord from inside the safety of his fortified compound, 10,000 miles from Iraq...

for comment #62...incorrect

you are partially correct in that we should not have gone to war in Iraq until at least Afghanistan was finished...if ever

but it is too late for that

as to the proper strategy for invading and occupying Iraq according to the Geneva conventions...see the fucking Powell doctrine, which was ignored an dismissed in favor of Rumsfeld's "strategy"...which worked for the invasion, but as the 2 solid weeks of looting showed, failed miserably the moment Baghdad fell, and has NOT functioned since

i can go on, but it is pointless to try and discuss things rationally with a partisan apologist

Excelsior?

Gonzo, as I said before I don't have a clear and definitive answer to all terrorism. However, 1 thing no one has ever tried is put a democratic state and let the people decide who they want to rule them. In regards to them not being afraid to die, I don't know of any other group that will take a plane and go through buildings or walk into a crowded square and blow themselves up. This includes woman and young adults. How that is ignorant, you will have to explain. When I say that they have a warp view of God, that is because some of the terrorists feel their acts are told to them by God. Once again how that is ignorant, you will have to explain. In regards to condescending attitude to humor me.... And as for America does not seem to do any good gives a sense of your dislike for this country.

Hey Ray Ellis, I must have missed you on the ballots for office to bring peace to this chaotic world. I'm so glad the liberl mantra is strong and well and has done so much for this country. Also Ray, if liberals do get education you will see I never said I knew more about the middle east then Ruvy. However, until someone here is in office or has a plan except do nothing, I'd like to know what it is.

"What is it that you guys are afraid of if this actually works?"

Ron, for myself, I'd have to explain how I got to be so skeptical that it actually WILL work.
Back in '91, during the first Gulf War, I figured Bush was beating down a dictator we'd done some business with, sending a signal to the other dictators we'd done business with during the Cold War that those days were over. I'm pretty liberal, so I didn't like the 'Countdown to the WAR' graphics the tv media used, or the carnival attitude the public had about that war in general, but I had to admit, at least Bush (Sr.) was cleaning up an old mess we'd contributed to in the '80's.
But as it turns out, putting Saddam in his place, and stationing troops in S.A., pissed off another old mess from the '80's, namely Osama bin Laden. And then putting Saddam in his place turned out to involve years of sanctions and bombing, with bin Laden gaining supporters and training killers while we focused our Middle Eastern policy on Saddam.
I'm just wondering what the new mess will turn out to be, and whether it will turn out we supported this new mess in it's infancy, as we have with so many others in the Middle East's long list of recent messes.
Also, I'm a liitle concerned this new mess will be armed to the teeth with Saddam's munitions we weren't able to track down.

SS, you are the only one who I have respect for, for at least giving reasons why you are apprehensive about the middle east. However, your friends all just seem to say we can' do anything right, nothing will work, we are to blame. All I ask is that we give this democracy thing a shot.

Gonzo at comment #60,

I don't think like a Christian gentleman. I'll not argue that. But neither does the enemy. Nevertheless, my solution does not require bombing weddings or massacring villages or crying widows or young orphans or orphanages to keep them. The threat of these actions is what would keep these people in line and PREVENT terror. Note how many people die from this concept, and compare to Haditha, for example. Is Haditha your measure of a moral high ground? Somehow, I don't think so.

Remember, I type from the safety of being in the gunsights of thousands of missiles and an enemy that would be happy to massacre us.

Let's get back to terrorism and Sun Tzu for just a second. The terrorism and the deaths you prevent are your biggest victory, Gonzo. And that is what I seek to do.

Ron sez...
*However, 1 thing no one has ever tried is put a democratic state and let the people decide who they want to rule them.*

wrong again...see Hamas and the Palestinians...democratically elected, weren't they? so much for your naive armchair theory

you prove again, you are just not worth the time, go back to watching Faux news like a good little drone

Ruvy...
....let me share a line with you.."monsters we are, lest monsters we become"

now, you know i don't condone things like the allegations of Haditha...so that point is moot

my main point is that working to remove the root cause of terror is much better than random acts of violence intended to discourage it(which it won't)

hasn't Israel used the "10 for 1" policy since the days of Moshe Dayan? has it worked yet?

as long as your nation and it's neighbors fight over scripture, there is no answer i can see

i can only hope you and your arab brethren can find some sane answer, which does have to start with them accepting Israel as a state, and then for Israel to end their version of apartheid...but that is merely my outsiders opinion and in no way meant to be definitive

i just hold that it is NEVER "good" politically, militarily or ethically to stoop to the level of your foes....i'm silly like that

Excelsior?

Putting your whole line of reasoning into one coherent essay is the reason I suggested you might want to give this proposal its own article, Ruvy.

We need to send hulk hogan over there to straighten out the terrorists!

I am real american.....fight for the rights of every man...........

sing along... you know the words.........

This is great news. Credit to the Iraqi, American, and other troops who've made the world a safer place.

psst..ron--the guy in office is not a liberal

Great thinking, Arch... Hulk Hogan will clean all this mess up.
Don't you guys ever back away from the crack pipe?

Ron sez...
*However, 1 thing no one has ever tried is put a democratic state and let the people decide who they want to rule them.*

gonzo marx replies in #68: "wrong again...see Hamas and the Palestinians...democratically elected, weren't they? so much for your naive armchair theory"

Gonzo, let's remind the armchair neocons about Iraq as well. Democratically elected Al-Jaafari was pressured out by the Americans in favor of this new guy Malicki. Yea, that's democrazy, American style, saving the world. Just make sure your country elects the "right" guy, or else....!!

The policy I recommended is not something Israel has ever done, Gonzo. Some of Israel's policies have worked - one being the massacre of a village in 1950 or 1951 at the behest of Ariel Sharon. But it worked only for a time. The kinds of solutions I recommend don't need new blood, like the sacrifice to a god of war...

The casatrated mukhtar, so long as he lives, is reminder to the rest of the clan never to engage in terror. Word gets around and the other clans learn by example. One castration a generation is a lot less blood spilled than all the terrorist bombings and counter bombings that take place now. Count the bodies, Gonzo, and count the tears. Count the funerals. There have been too many.

Victor, I finally see your point. Thank you for the advice.

I'm glad we all have different ideas on how to stop terrorism, but perhaps we should work together and devise a solution rather than turn on each other and play the "Who hates America more?" game.

If ya don't see eye to eye, and you don't think an idea works, it's not because they want terrorism to thrive. Even those who disagree with Bush -- even those who flat out hate him -- would probably concede that they don't think Bush hates America and his actions were out of him wanting terrorists all over the place. They just think it was a big ol' fuck up.

So how about we look at each other's ideas and not say "well that's a stupid idea and you're stupid for bringing it up."

Then again, it's way more fun to just take shots at each other.

You're all gay.

suss

cindy sheehan called the terrorists in iraq "freedom fighters" and so many on the left idolize her and think she tells things like they really are

from where i sit there is no middle ground possible with people who think like this

So, that's what three people in the world?

And Arch called for the "elimination" of Hilary Clinton before November 2006 in a related post. Where's the objectivity now, Arch?

Gonzo, let's remind the armchair neocons about Iraq as well. Democratically elected Al-Jaafari was pressured out by the Americans in favor of this new guy Malicki. Yea, that's democrazy, American style, saving the world. Just make sure your country elects the "right" guy, or else....!!

Tommy, were you born this ignorant or do you have to work at it? What we established in Iraq is a parliamentary system. In that system you elect a representative and he then votes on the top leadership. Jaafari was picked that way as interim prime minister. Maliki was picked the same way for the more permanent PM position. Jaafari voluntarily chose not to run for PM again so that Mailiki could have the spot. They're pals. Maliki is Jaafari's second in command in the Dawa Party and his handpicked guy for the job. Jaafari declined to run for the PM slot because he had lost a lot of creditibilty with the Kurds and Sunnis during his 6 months in the office running the temporary government. You'll be sad, because like you Jaafaris is a raging socialist, which is about the best we can hope for with a lot of these Iraqi leaders because to get secularists we usually end up with socialists who've been indoctrinated in Europe.

Dave

So, that's what three people in the world?

Take a jaunt over to Kos sometime and you'll find way more than three. And check out Nick Berg's father who is mourning the death of the guy who cut his son's head off.

Dave

Ruvy or should I call you KooKie!

#40 you cannot be serious...Bush did it for Osama??? Oh yea and all the Jews knew ahead of time and didnt go toi work at the world trade center on 911...

Silas Kain


You sound like you have been brought to your knees by a few hundred cowboys if ya know what I mean....

Ron...listen to Kookie I mean Ruvy...he on more than one occasion have stated what a shit of a country he lives in and how evil the politicians are...and since he has dual citizenship...due to the fact he cannot commit himself to making a decision and taking responsibility for it...he mantains his American citizenship so he can bash our government and leaders while he enjoys the BILLIONS of dollars in proping up their failing economy and send AMERICAN boys in harms way so he and his family can live a good life...


Just my opinion of course...

Dave,

I followed your link over to the AP article about Michael Berg's father; the man is unbelievable--how can he dishonor his son's memory that way?

If the people of Delaware elect that jerk, they need their heads examined.

No one would have bothered Cindy Sheehan... we would have all let her mourn in peace but she had to open her piehole and demean this nation and the families of other soldiers, and start spewing anti-american, anti-semitic hatred.......

she deserves all the criticism and scorn that should come her way in the future

as for nick berg's dad... i just don't get it.........has his grief so destroyed this man's mental faculties to the point where some moonbat from answer or code pink can come along and wHisper "it's bush's fault no zawqris that your son is dead" in his ear and he believes it?

JOM,

The key phrase in that comment #40 is, "I would not be surprised". You get to learn a lot of very strange things that you never find out when you don't live here. Though that fat pig of an anti-Semite, Michael Moore, did flush out this fact about the Bush family and use it in his little hatchet job in 2004. A skunk making an idiot look like more of an idiot.

Is this speculaion of mine true? Dunno. I've seen stranger thngs happen in the Middle East.

Kookie, on the TV show "77 Sunset Strip", was a young man with a comb running through a thick head of hair. I ain't young, and I don't have no thick head of hair to run a comb through. The name just don't apply, JOM.

How about Moondoggie, then?

Dave

Ray, do NOT besmirch the good name of Space Ghost. Glad that Zarqawi is gone. I just hope we don't relive the tale of Hercules against the Hydra.

JOM,

On more than one occasion, I've also stated that your country is fighting the wrong war in the wrong country - because you are. Your real enemies in Arabia are in Riyadh, and their friends and relations are the ones who are causing lots of the trouble in Mesopotamia these days.

Or are you less intelligent than a camel, that you can't see that?

Aaman,

Back to your original question at comment #11, the big news here was not al Zarqawi. It was the elimination of a Hamas terrorist. This account from CTV.ca was almost a thigh slapper. Typical of the brave Canadians (not to mention the rest of the mainstream media) they couldn't bring themselves to call this cockroach a terrorist. I do not know how many "gates of hell" we Israelis have opened up for ourselves by daring to eliminate these cockroaches from the ranks of the breathing and walking - it must be about 100 by now.

But our government will now have another excuse to wring their hands when some terrorist gets through somewhere and kills a bunch of people here. You can bet your bottom dollar (or rupee) that they will not do anything I recommend.

It might work!

Doesn't this act demonstrate Iraq's lack of sovereignty, being a US operation conducted on Iraqi soil?

There's that, Aaman, but it's not so simple. Bush claims American forces will leave as soon as they're no longer needed and/or a legitimately elected Iraqi government asks us to withdraw our troops. The administration can also point to polls in which many Iraqi citizens say they don't want the Americans to leave just yet, much as they hate having foreign troops on their soil. On top of that there is a provision of international law (part of the Geneva Conventions if I recall correctly) which makes America responsible for maintaining order in the country we've invaded. It's sort of the "you break it, you bought it" rule of international relations.

All of this gives the terrorists a perfect opportunity to embarrass and humiliate America, if any of them had the brains God gave a fencepost.

The easiest and simplest plan for the terrorist forces would be to cease all operations in Iraq for at least two full years. Failing that, they should make absolutely sure they never cause even the slightest collateral damage to any target except the American occupying forces. If they stop slaughtering Iraqi civilians, killing Iraqi police officers, blowing up Iraqi politicians, and generally making life miserable for Iraqis, they might get someone other than the world's certifiable morons to believe they are really "freedom fighters."

Two full years of near-peace in Iraq, with reconstruction efforts moving ahead at full speed, would let ordinary Iraqis enjoy a much better standard of living than the state of borderline civil war they're suffering under now. More importantly (from the terrorist point of view) it would leave the Americans with no excuse for staying. The freely elected government of a peaceful and prosperous Iraq could ask the United States to withdraw all troops, and put Bush's promises to the test in front of the whole world.

Then we'd see just how true the administration's claims about Iraqi sovereignty are. If Bush refused to withdraw the troops from a stable and democratic Iraq, it would be a worse blow to his personal credibility than anything that has gone before, and more damaging to America's reputation than any other scandal or massacre that has happened so far.

I have no qualms about sharing this brilliant plan on a public forum where any terrorist might see it, because they're all too stupid and too drunken with the short term high of terrorizing civilians to consider such a long term plan that would require a tiny modicum of self-restraint and civilized behavior from them.

do you believe that security for the oil infrastructure will be left to the Iraqis in the foreseeable future - ?

troll

What I believe is irrelevant. Right now the terrorists are giving Bush the excuse of claiming to need US troops in Iraq to protect its fledgling representative government and its people.

If they really wanted to prove he was lying about that, the terrorists would lie low for a couple of years, or maybe even pitch in and help make Iraq a better place to live for its ordinary citizens.

The fact that they refuse to do this only proves they are psychotic idiots, and proves nothing whatsoever about whether Bush's claimed motives are sincere or not.

Ruvy...enough of the mideast wisdom...lets not forget your just another guy from brooklyn....hmmm a Camel....at least a camel is capable of surviving in the desert on their own (no american welfare, food stamps...military protection)...unlike....you! Yea so maybe I am as smart as a camel!!!

Victor - *What I believe is irrelevant.*

how about what you think - ?

I'm not questioning Bush's motives - he is a mere cog who will be gone shortly

my question is - given world oil shortages and with so much $ to be made can the US allow the infrastructure in Iraq to go offline again

troll

JOM,

Enough of the Mideast wisdom eh? I am just another Brooklyn boy, as you say. But I picked up my ass and moved it east a bit. It's four in the afternoon here, not nine in the morning, and I can see a minaret in the distance, not The Parachute in Coney Island. And when I go to the Tayelet a half kilometer away or so, I see the golden dome on the Temple Mount, not the golden dome of the Williamsburgh bank.

But it's not the view and the scenery that buys the knowledge, JOM. It's coping with everything that is different here - including the knowledge that the electricity here could likely be cut off by a Qassam missile hitting the Ashkelon electric plant - something the two or three writers on Blog Critics who call Brooklyn home do not have to deal with...

Then there are those ten thousand missiles in southern Lebanon owned by Hizb Allah...

Troll, Bush's motives are only a shorthand for the policy goals of the United States for being in Iraq. Either way it's phrased, my point remains the same. You have not offered any argument or fact that would cause me to reconsider it.

If the terrorists wanted to prove "Operation Iraqi Freedom" was really a war for oil, as you seem to be claiming, all they'd have to do is sit back and let America pour reconstruction money into Iraq for a couple of years, until it becomes a decent place for civilian life.

Then the world would see whether the stated American intention of withdrawing U.S. troops once they're no longer needed is really true or not.

agreed - I'm not making an argument but rather asking a question

troll

And you know Bush's motives...how exactly? Are you a fly on the wall in the oval office?

"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting." (Bukowski)

Andy, where did I ever claim to know Bush's motives?

What I've said is that the current terrorist strategy offers no way to test Bush's true motives (or the true American policy goal for being in Iraq, as a less personal way of phrasing it).

The terrorists justify their barbarism by claiming the Americans will never leave Iraq unless driven out by violent resistance. If they were smarter, they would put that claim to the test. Give Iraq two years of peace, then see whether the Americans leave as promised.

Aaman, the attack that took out Zarqawi was a join US-Iraqi operation. While the bombs were American the troops which surrounded the village were from both nations and the Iraqis were the first ones in after the bombing to go through and round up any survivors.

Dave

Victor - How about the first line of comment #98?

Troll, Bush's motives are only a shorthand for the policy goals of the United States for being in Iraq.

That would say to me and just about anyone that reads english that you know his motives...

You knew who I was talking about even though I never mentioned your name...maybe the comment wasn't addressed to you? But then again...you did state what his motives are...

Like a bad chess player, Bush only thinks one or two moves ahead. In this case he doesn't give a damn about his actions because the administration will be blamed for the delayed results. All he cares about is what he'll look like in the history books and right now it's just a sneering, smirking smart-ass with a bunch of prewritten comebacks that'll only get us deeper into war.

No, Andy, I've never claimed to know Bush's motives. You only think I've done so because you've seen others do so, and you mistakenly think I resemble them. So I'll spell it all out for you.

When using the phrase "Bush's motives" in my comments here, I've been using that phrase as a shorthand for America's foreign policy goals. (Both of these in relation to the reason for putting U.S. troops into Iraq, in case the context hasn't made that clear enough.)

Everybody knows what Bush and other administration officials have openly stated about the reasons for America to invade Iraq. Everybody knows about their stated readiness to withdraw American forces once Iraq is stable and secure.

As you may have noticed, some claim these statements are false. Such people think Bush and his administration had other, secret motives for invading Iraq. Further, they claim these secret motives will cause the administration to keep American troops in Iraq indefinitely, no matter what may happen on the ground.

I have never claimed to know the truth of such competing interpretations of America's policy goals and/or Bush's personal motives.

Here is what I have said, in a nutshell: if the claims about the Bush administration's duplicity are true, then the so-called "insurgents" in Iraq could force Bush to show his hand, thus embarrassing and humiliating him and his allies before the entire world, by simply backing off and letting the people of Iraq have two years of peace and stability.

Victor - in a nutshell...what you said is what I put in italics in my comment...you can try to change the wording any way you like...but I read what I read...and it seemed perfectly clear to me...now that you've muddied the water with all this...I'm not sure what the hell you said!

Andy, what you put in italics was not a claim to knowing the substance of Bush's motives. It was a statement that the phrase "Bush's motives" is a shorthand phrase I've been employing as a reference to the larger topic of American foreign policy goals for being in Iraq.

Clear enough?

Standard Scenario:

NEWS: "bad guy(s) _____ killed in Iraq!" (Uday, Koosay, Zacowie, et al)

RIGHT: "We've turned a corner! God Bless Bush and God Bless America! Mission Accomplished! Happy Days are Hear Again!"

LEFT: "You're nuts. Iraq is a fucking disaster. It will haunt this nation for years, if not decades."

RIGHT: "Liberals HATE America! Liberals hate the troops!"




...wash, rinse, and repeat ad infinitum...


===========

PS: Strategic Note to "Ron"

Dude, don't try to intellectually spar with Gonzo; he'll hand your "doctoral" ass to you on a platter.

Yer welcome!

xxoo
S

Good to see you're still haunting the halls of this 'institution', Sharkie

awww...luv ya too Sharkie-poo!

toss me an e-mail...underscore between names at the hotmail place...

now, fucking write more ya finny Fiend!

/smootchies

missed ya bro

Excelsior?

I'm beginning to think I'm having a bad influence on the guys on this site...

nah Jet..we wuz like this loooOOOoooOOOooong before ya ever got here...

on the upside..ya fit right in

heh

now, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

good question

Excelsior?

"I never call people names."
- Dave Nalle, ad nasuseam

"Tommy, were you born this ignorant or do you have to work at it?"
- Dave Nalle, comment #79

gonzo marx

"spent time serving my country" hmmmmm...the 3 months that you were in the cub scouts and your watching the movie "Indepedence Day" 10 times doesnt really count as serving your country....

Note to posters - Dont always believe what people claim to be!

Just my opion of course....

Okay, we won't believe your claim to be Just One Man. Maybe you're really 37 women and a brace of llamas, posting here in the guise of Just One Man.

yo.."senator" Just one Dink...

try harder, Navy 79-83...i think Andy Marsh can confirm my bona fides on this one

and i got kicked out of cub scouts fer eating brownies....heh

now, you have something specific to say, especially since i've just reversed yer "outing"?

or are you just trying to stir shit up?

if so, you had better try a bigger spoon and stop staring at yer Prince poster

nuff said?

Excelsior?

"Note to posters - Dont always believe what people claim to be!"

He does have a point. He claims to be a man, but comes off like a child with his comments.

Hey RogermDildo...great post it really is your best....oh...I forgit you believe in EGore, the tooth fairy and that someday someone will take you seriously...

pathetic.....

JOM Me thinks you doth protest to much about Mr. Gore. Since he's all you seem to think about why don't you just admit you're in love and be done with it.

It's getting old. The house at pooh corner has a vacancy...

Thanks for proving the point. You should really come up with a better retort and stop making Mr Rose work so much. He's got better things to do than clean up your verbal bile.

Believe in Gore? Well, I know he didn't say he invented the Internet, but I didn't vote for him as President so I'm not clear what you are talking about. Hell, Gore can't even craft a good melody.

PS, I don't come to the Internet for validation, but after the real world has spurned you so many times, I can understand why you do.

Gonzo..... what was it that made you want to join the Navy? The Village People song? That came out about the time you joined didn't it?

ya really wanna know Bing?...ok

i'm the oldest of 5 kids, raised by a single mom...i started working full-time to help pay the bills when i was 13, while maintaining my grades in school...when the time came i couldn't afford college in any way, shape or form...and figured the service was a good idea that would allow me to do some travel, learn some skills and still contribute to help pay off the mortgage

there's also the bit where i grew up reading Heinlein, and in that idealistic way of young men, wanted to give something back to my country...the Navy was the best answer to me at the time

and i never regretted a second of it

now, my turn...Bing/Arch...what turned such a young man as yourself into such a sour, narrow minded person who not only doesn't understand those who disagrees with him, but actively mischaraterizes them and spews the fallacious non-sense that by not agreeing with him they are anti-american rather than just possessing a different point of view?

was it Limbaugh? yer about the right age to have grown up on that shit...

just Curious

Excelsior?

so it wasn't the song?

do you even like the song?

#1--Bush didn't kill Zarqawi--an anonymous pilot in an F16 with two 500 pound bombs did.
#2 Gonzo served his country. What have you guys contributed in any shape or form?
#3 It's generally acknowledged that those who resort to "fag jokes" are hiding a dirty little secret.

Ray ....wake up...wheres the proof that Gonzo served his country...because he said he did? and that makes his opinion worth more than someone who didnt? Please give it a rest...Kerry tried that line and guess what...no body fell for it.....

and ...maybe you shouldnt believe everything you read...stop reading the New York Times, listening to Al Franken and believing crap on the internet ...I know its hard for a liberal but think for yourself

Arch the Bing..i notice ya didn't even attempt ta answer my Questions for you..

pity

but i am the nice one , so i'll give ya some more info...nope, don't like the song..hate anything disco...as i've said earlier, i started playing bass in '76..and leaned towards Rush, Motorhead and Sabbath..

JoM- see Ray's comment in #126...try harder...even better, comment as who ya are...

Excelsior?

Bozo Marx

Who I am...does it matter..its my opinion that matters...I dont feel like hiding behind a record of public service...real or imagined....

Just one Moron....here's a clue

ask Andy Marsh..ya know, a real Goldwater style conservative?

or, any that you trust who has a Navy background, i can verify my service in less than a paragraph to anyone who was InServ...

nice try attempting to discredit me...it's ok, i know yer receding hairline doesn't allow you to handle the pressure of objective Reality or the process of Reason

and don't flatter yerself...yer Opinion doesn't matter either

after all, you like Prince

Excelsior?

hey ray

I almost forgot that "anonymous pilot" you mentioned is a "real" war hero...give him credit...

he did give the pilot credit...and those who painted the target get credit too

what he said was that the Shrub doesn't get credit for it...and he was right

but i realize that the factual correlation with Reality doesn't matter to blind partisans such as yerself...step away from the Limbaugh, it could be loaded

Excelsior?

bozo marx

Please give me a break...your trying to justify elusion of self importance with a challenge to test your military knowlege...hmmmm...I bet yoy can quote by heart all of the line of Luke Walker...does that make you a Jedi?

And bozo...those who are real heros and really served in the military..dont start every sentence referencing their military background...based upon that...in my opinion...you are a phony..regardless even if you were in the service...you still seem to have a distorted view that for some reason your opinion is more important than others...another words to quote bob grant.."your a fake, phoney, fraud"

Bozo...why does your quote "military career" make you feel better than everyone else?

jom - please stop spitting on the troops

troll

JustoneMoron...

now now, i have about 4000 comments, and probably a few hundred reference my time in the service, and only when it is germaine to the topic at hand

you see, those who HAVR served, have some Insight as to how things work in the military, and can speak about those things with a firsthand knowledge

now, contrary to your continuously distorted view, please show where i have EVEr said i was "better" than anyone else in any way, shape or form?

i'll wait...

.......


......

couldn't find it , eh?

for the record, it's "Skywalker" and nope, i can't quote to many lines form the series, i've seen the films but am not that big a fan

now, did you serve? please quote where i have EVER said i was anything like any kind of "hero"

i'll wait some more...

.....

.....

still nothing?

here's something for you to ponder...if you spent a fraction of the time you waste in attacking those you disagree with on working towards solutions you might become part of the Answer, rather than a bitter hypocritical partisan part of the Problem that you remain

"contemplate upon the Tree of Woe" - Thulsa Doom

Excelsior?

Bozo....thank you for proving my point...you had to mention "my time in the service"....lol you actual count the number of times you mention "my time in the service"....LOL...LOL...and by the way you did write that "yer Opinion doesn't matter either"

ya see your are hiding and trying to be something you are not...this is a classic liberal move...bash, bash, bash...but offer no solutions...


Excelshit!

ya want a solution, mention a problem...ya know damn well i have tossed out my fair share of ideas for tackling problems...where's yours?

as fer my mentions and anything liek the estimate you call "counting"...ya almost make me laugh, thanks fer trying

i mention things that are relevant to the conversation, you attempt attacks on straw men with ad hominems

you have any actual Issue you want to discuss, or are you just channeling yer iner Don Rickles ?

just curious...but you really do need to stop stalking me liek this, yer boyfriend is beginning to get upset

Excelsior?

Gonzo, are you really so certain this is Big Al? With his recent resurfacing, it sounds much more like the mad stylings of Anthony Nero, I mean Grande.

Bozo...gee a liberal....and gay basher too...go figure...you must have a deep understanding of homosexualiity....now I understand what you mean about being..."Inserv"...you are a catcher of course!

heh...JoM, yer almost amusing..but you don't get to set the definitions

that's a nice smear tactic that AM radio hosts have perfected to fool the sheeple, but just ain't gonna cut it, it also helps to actually be funny

i should be charging fer these Lessons...

but i digress

as i stated earlier, do actually have anything factual or Issue oriented you wanted to , ya know..discuss, or debate?

or are lame attempts at insult and attack all ya have got?

now, i truly am flattered that yer spending all this time and obvious amounts of skull sweat trying to keep up here, but shouldn't you be working some rogaine into yer Larry Fine 'do?

odds are ya will have much better results fer the time spent, and may actually eventually get you out of the basement and you will see a real female of the species...we call it ...a social life

"no go away or I will taunt you a second time" Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Excelsior?

O.k., it seems that my comments have been erased from this thread.

I am really hurt and astonished.