Yeah Dave 7.5 billion into social security and probably 2-3 times that out in healthcare costs. Sounds great!

I hope this thread doesn't turn into another "oh they're such hard workers" and "they contribute so much to the economy" bullshit rant.

They're here illegally and they cost this nation more than they give to it.

End of of story.

well now, another case of cherry picking a single anecdotal incident and extrapolating it into a false postulate to bolster anunproven assumtion

actually, if i have read the bill correctly, the owner of the business is in the clear since they provided documentation...

the illegals, if holding false documentation, are now felons, (forgery) and are subject to either immediate deportation and/or federal pennitentiary time

now...whose social security numbers were being used? are there victims of identity theft involved here? or are the documents from dead people, this can make a bit of difference in the case.

but, either way...the operative word here is "illegal"

look it up sometime

Excelsior?

Amen gonzo.


I always think of the many people that I work with (scientists/engineers) that are patiently working their way through the system to become legal citizens.

"The lowest paid was receiving $9.50 an hour and the highest paid was working as a store manager, a salaried job paying about $30,000 a year."
These must be the jobs nobody else wants that I keep hearing about.

That was a great article and everything is TRUE

It is a terrible thing when the consequences of ones own decisions, such as coming here illegally come home to roost. Now these people are going to have to pay the price for having done that. A tough life for a family trying to make it.

It seems today that we live in a world where personal responsibility should have no consequence. Big Daddy (Government) should fix everything for me. I think middle America is about to tell Big Daddy to lay down the crack pipe of socialism and get the hell off our backs.

The moral to this story is to think about the actions you are about to take. It may be difficult where you are now but robbing a bank will only fix your problems until justice finds you.

Trouble

Nice piece, Dave, that puts a human and reality-based face on an issue that is too often drawn into meaningless generalities.

Dave. Could you be any more of an Open Borders advocate. These jobs paid well enough they could and should have gone to Americans citizens. Hopefully the owner gave the manager health insurance but I bet the 9.50/hr. workers were not. So every time they have a heath concern, you and I pay for there medical bills. Just as much as many on the anti-illegal immigrant side are bias and fail to mention the possible benefits of hard working illegals in this country, people like you fail to mention the massive burden they produce as well. Oh and yes with fraudulent documents they committed a felony. If the SS# was somebody else's, that is identity theft. The credit history of thousands of Americans have been ruined because of this. We, as American citizens would go to jail for that. Under Hagel/Martinez all crimes of that nature are forgiven. In other words, AMNESTY. Is that OK? Putting a human face on the crisis does not negate the need for justice.

Dave. Could you be any more of an Open Borders advocate.

Sure. As a libertarian I could go with the official LP policy and actually endorse a full open borders policy.

These jobs paid well enough they could and should have gone to Americans citizens.

In Austin we have enough of a labor shortage that I imagine the business owner will have a hard time finding anyone to replace these workers.

Hopefully the owner gave the manager health insurance but I bet the 9.50/hr. workers were not. So every time they have a heath concern, you and I pay for there medical bills.

Did you not read the article? The point here is that these workers paid into Medicaid and SS, so they were as vested in that system as any native born worker and just as entitled to state subsidized medical care as anyone else who couldn't afford insurance.

Just as much as many on the anti-illegal immigrant side are bias and fail to mention the possible benefits of hard working illegals in this country, people like you fail to mention the massive burden they produce as well.

The point you miss is that these workers aren''t producing a burden that any other worker at the same wage wouldn't be just as responsible for. What's more, since there are millions of workers paying into the system with no claim on benefits, rather than being a drain on the system they are actually contributing more than they could possibly consume.

Hell, I even soft-pedaled that issue by only looking at social security. Each of those workers also paid 20% of their wages to the IRS as witholding and unlike the rest of us they would have been unable to file a tax return and therefore never got ANY of that 20% of their income back in a refund.

Let's do the math on that. Let's say half the immigrants are earning $10 an hour on average and not getting their income tax refund. That's $25 billion going into the coffers of the IRS and not coming out of your and my pockets. Adding Medicare, Social Security and witholding we're probably talking a total of close to $40 billion from illegals that they can never get back. That's $3300 per illegal per year - including the ones paid in cash - to cover state services and medical expenses. That's more than many of us pay for insurance, and more than most states pay per capita in social services.

Burden on society my ass.

Oh and yes with fraudulent documents they committed a felony. If the SS# was somebody else's, that is identity theft. The credit history of thousands of Americans have been ruined because of this. We, as American citizens would go to jail for that.

Bullshit. They weren't taking out credit cards in other peoples names or ruining their credit histories. They'd get caught quickly if that were the case, because it would raise their profile high enough that some government agency would take an interest.

Under Hagel/Martinez all crimes of that nature are forgiven.

Not the last time I read it. No one has proposed pardonning actual criminals for anything other than the crime of crossing the border illegally.

In other words, AMNESTY. Is that OK? Putting a human face on the crisis does not negate the need for justice.

I agree. Let's apply an appropriate penalty for overpaying into the tax system and working hard and contributing to the community.

Dave

Due to cetain medical circumstances beyond my wife's control, I now work a second job at a local Florida gas station. One striking thing that I witness every single morning is a great deal of migrant workers pouring in to get water, ice, breakfast, diesel, and start their collective day. No crimes are commited, no near misses, no drive offs from the pumps, simply a group of workers contributing on average, $5000 per day to the guy who pays me.

Furthermore, and again to no fault of my wife or anyone, I make an obscene number of trips to the local emergency room each month, (see "Small Town and Big Time") and I notice each time that the demographics are nearly the same every visit. Approximately 70% Black, 20% elderly White, and 10% Hispanic.

For those who want to argue these stats, I humbly invite you to join me in poverty that forces you to acquire a meaningless job, and to contract a dibilitating disease that renders you incapable of avoiding regular trips to the ER. Other than that, shut up and listen to the likes of me and Dave and thank God you do not have to witness first hand.

Good lord, Paul, not more evil anecdotal evidence which exposes these northerners who've never seen a Mexican to the truth of their role in society.

Let me throw out another anecdote. I'm associated with a community group which owns a large facility which we rent out for parties and meetings and especially weddings and quintaneras (look it up). Most of our renters are Mexicans and many, many of them are likely illegals. They pay a great deal to rent the hall for a saturday evening and enormously more for entertainment and decorations and clothing. They pay these bills with money they've earned, and it all goes back into the local community. The money isn't coming from crimes or welfare payments. I've met these people. They're illegals, but in many cases they're economically well into the middle class and they pay their own way.

Dave

My only true jealousy is that I wish my frame were younger, and I could do their job at their wage as a second income. ( about $5 an hour more than the gas station pays), but reality sets in, and I am glad they patronize the guy who pays me so that I can buy my wife's exorbitantly expensive medications.

I've known a couple of people who've started up small businesses which cater specifically to illegal aliens starting out from jobs like yours where they are in contact with them a lot. Not that you're necessarily in a position to do it, but there is a lot of money to be made from services tailored specifically to that market.

Dave

i just gotta laugh here...

all in all, skirt and dodge, the point is that what we are talking about here are people who have broken the Law and entered the country illegally, if thay have used false or forged documentation they have compounded the isdemeanor with a felony, possibly multiple counts

scream all you want for cheap labor, doesn't change the fact that in 1986 amnesty was granted under the Law with certain provisions to prevent a huge flood of illegals into the country...

the EXACT opposite happened, proving that the policy in place has NOT been enforced and has NOT worked...

here's an idea...enforce the fucking Laws on the books, seal the fucking borders, and THEN debate on what to do with the millions of illegals here

sound like a start?

Excelsior?

Hey Gonzo,
Just a couple of questions. When is the last time you smoked a joint? When is the last time you left a bar after putting a couple of cold ones down? The Pot need not call the kettle black my friend. Oh, and if you find offense in my assumptions, change your tag, Gonzo says a lot.

Holy mackeral!!! Isn't that like a little kid saying...but Joey did it! Why can't I???

What the fuck does smoking a joint have to do with this discussion other than the fact that the pot probably came across the same border that the illegals did?

there is a lot of money to be made from services tailored specifically to that market.

I have a friend who does very well selling 'em prepaid phone cards.

And Dave, FWIW those parties are called quinceaneras (literally, fifteen years), the age at which young latin women are presented--an old, old custom--we have them here in South Florida as well.

yep, it sez a lot about my past, not about where i am...except my style of typing

try again

and even if i was doing both at the moment...that doesn't excuse me from getting busted, and doing time for the crime...does it?

what you are suggesting is allowing people to get away with their crimes...and THAT is the problem

so , no offense taken, but you can shove yer straw man argument and try again cuz it ain't making it

NO ONE is above the Law, otherwise we forfeit our right to live under the Rule of Law...

so...take what i said earlier, any problems enforcing the laws we have already (ie:the 1986 laws), busting the meployers who knowingly hire illegals, busting those that have false documents, sealing the borders to prevent further influx of new illegals as well as for national security, and THEN working out what to do with the millions of illegal aliens already here?

try answering the point rather than attempting to distract...

k?

tnx

Excelsior?

i just gotta laugh here...

You can laugh, but you're just feeding the racism and deceit of the anti-immigrant crowd by rejecting rational solutions to this problem.

all in all, skirt and dodge, the point is that what we are talking about here are people who have broken the Law and entered the country illegally, if thay have used false or forged documentation they have compounded the isdemeanor with a felony, possibly multiple counts

Regardless, it's still a relatively trivial crime which does little or no harm and is committed in pursuit of the admirable goal of being a productive part of the US.

here's an idea...enforce the fucking Laws on the books, seal the fucking borders, and THEN debate on what to do with the millions of illegals here

sound like a start?

No, it sounds like an cop-out that doesn't address the reason why they are coming here and therefore will NEVER actually work. It's the jingoistic and lazy answer of people who want to bluster and posture about immigration without really addressing the issue in any but the most simpleminded, knee-jerk way. It's not an actual solution, it's just going to be the source of more problems down the road.

Dave

If we are to claim the letter of the law, then by God let's claim them all!! What? Because I don't smoke anymore, I can't call Gonzo to the carpet? He just made his case by the letter of his law....

Lo siento mis amigos, pero tu eres son locos cabezas en todos, muy muy locos...

so, if we use your argument then a person that smokes a joint can't argue that a person that commits murder should be punished because what...he's stoned? Supply a urine sample 'cause I don't think you've quit smoking yet!

Dave

I accept your point about the mexicans being nice people and wanting to work and not being a burden.

What I don't like is the fact that we have many people working their butts off to become citizens the legal way and these people (the illegals) are diminishing that effort.

PJ #15 2 wrongs don't make a right!

Hey Paul - you forgot to press one for english!

I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and speculate that Andy and Maurice live no less than 500 miles from the Mexican border and therefore have no clue to the topic other than what Fox has told them they need. And yes, for the record and On the record, A person who is in continuom breaking a law has absolutely no business promoting any other law. This is not a pick and choose system folks, if it was I would most certainly not pick and choose your lame drug using arses!!

Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico.

Dave

It is telling in two ways, those in the know of the situation, and those in the political throws of it as well. I wonder, truly, how many Canadians dip the border each day to earn a stronger dollar each day, yet aren't quite brown enough to get noticed...

This all makes me wonder:

We have a movie out right now called An Inconvenient Truth. Al Gore argues that in 10 years we will have serious consequences due to global warming.

What if there were a movie with the SAME title, arguing that in 10 years if the current rate of illegal immigration continues, that the US economy will collapse into a great depression? I wonder how that would be received.

And I have wondered what all those protesting Mexicans would think if hundreds of millions of poor Chinese and poor Indian people illegally came to this country just like border-hopping Mexicans and took "those jobs nobody wanted except illegals"

Then all of the sudden Mexicans would want to curb illegal immigration. You would see Mexicans crying for a wall to protect our shores from these boat people, but hypocritically they would not support a wall on the US/Mexico Border.

My point is, if another group of people illegally came here just like Mexicans and worked just like those Mexicans, all of a sudden all of these latinos protesting would be changing their tune FAST.

well, i just deleted a nice comment full of quotes and refutations...

why?

cuz realization sets in that no matter what the point or argument, those who like the cheap labor of illegal aliens are going to go on advocating, no matter how sensible the questions or alternatives offered...

enjoy yer circle jerk kiddies

/ignore

Excelsior?

If illegal immigration benefitted the US, why would be ILLEGAL? Why not simply an open border policy?

All these liberals keep saying it's a good thing, but obviously the government doesn't think so. In fact NO US government has ever had an open border policy.

WHY?

Think about it: If it only helps our economy, why is it illegal?

It's illegal because people who are responsible for taking care of this country understand that severe negative consequences could occur with an open border policy.

Be realistic now: Our current stance on illegal immigration is not just to keep "white" people happy. That is foolish and makes no sense. Our current stance is based on economic predictions.

Anyone see a hypocrisy among liberals?

On one hand, they are against outsourcing. They don't want jobs being taken away from US Citizens and LEGAL residents in favor of people in third world countries, like India.

But especially when dealing with Mexican liberals, they would love if corporations could hire truckloads of Mexican illegal immigrants, even if that meant jobs were being outsourced away from US Citizens and LEGAL residents.

I smell hypocrisy, just like Ty's comment about hypocrisy in the fact that if illegals from other countries (like India/China) came here, the Mexicans would change their views on illegal immigration.

Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico.

Funny, I thought the major supporters of building a wall were American farmers who live right ON the Mexican border, and whose properties have been turned into dangerous junk heap thoroughfares for illegals.

Shut up all of you, Dave's right and you know it.

Dave fianlly admits: I'm associated with a community group which owns a large facility which we rent out for parties and meetings and especially weddings and quintaneras (look it up). Most of our renters are Mexicans and many, many of them are likely illegals. They pay a great deal to rent the hall for a saturday evening

I always suspected you must have had some vested financial interest in illegal immigration.

"Dave fianlly admits: I'm associated with a community group which owns a large facility which we rent out for parties and meetings and especially weddings and quintaneras (look it up). Most of our renters are Mexicans and many, many of them are likely illegals. They pay a great deal to rent the hall for a saturday evening

I always suspected you must have had some vested financial interest in illegal immigration.
"

Good point Brodie. Of course Dave used a different story so he wouldn't sound so biased.

Of course no one has still addressed the GREAT points from Ty, Credible Threat, and Common Sense (me).

We need to string Vincente Fox up like a pinata and beat the fuck out of him. This would be a good start.

now i got a question that i dont think ive heard addressed: lets say we have this open border thing happen? now are we only talking about mexico? (some include canada) y not have no immigration rules? y not let people from india, korea, china, etc come one over. cuz go bless them they try for YEARS, im talking 10 YEARS or more to come over here. they want a better life for their family. they are hard workers. they are good people. y not let them come over?

im very upset that my educated, hard working parents waited 15 years to come to this country to give me a better life, and people like dave shows no respect to the back of this country (LEGAL immigrants) by saying, sure let the northerners come over. let them come cuz they are good hard working people. thats dumb. and its scary u think that way. im glad u dont run the country.

"now i got a question that i dont think ive heard addressed: lets say we have this open border thing happen? now are we only talking about mexico? (some include canada) y not have no immigration rules? y not let people from india, korea, china, etc come one over. cuz go bless them they try for YEARS, im talking 10 YEARS or more to come over here. they want a better life for their family. they are hard workers. they are good people. y not let them come over?"

This is my point. Mexicans and other latinos don't want this because they don't want other groups stealing their jobs. All of a sudden Mexicans protesting against immigration reform would be protesting FOR immgration reform.

Paul - I live in VA...my border is NC...pretty bad, but not Mexico...the other is the Atlantic...I'm from NJ...I've lived as close as 6 miles from the border and seen people running down the freeway after crashing the gates...not on TV...with my own eyes! But somehow...you think we should just let them in? Or give them a get out of jail free card? Is crashing the gate a Chance card or a Community Chest card?

And I'd say...you need to remember that old glass house story...I'm sure there's some arcane law somewhere you're breaking, whether you know it or not is besides the point...ignorance is no excuse...

I've also met plenty of people that are not native to the U.S. that have gained citizenship the right way...legally...like my grandfather had to do and every other person on the planet should have to do regardless the color of their skin...why is giving every person that wants into this country the once over a bad thing?

"By the way, Texas French Bread makes a damned fine baguette, excellent croissants and has branched out into sandwiches, lunch fare and gourmet coffee" -- Dave

BTW... in Virginia it's a felony to possess and use a fake I.D., I can't imagine what a fake set of papers and a SSN would bring.

If you're under 21 and try to buy alcohol... and get busted... you're toast.

Just to put it in perspective. If I could live in Mexico without practically getting robbed... I'd do it. But that country is so corrupt, I wouldn't go there if you double-dawg-dared-me.

And I've been all over the globe.

What I don't like is the fact that we have many people working their butts off to become citizens the legal way and these people (the illegals) are diminishing that effort.


Maurice, this at least is a valid point. They should certainly go to the back of the line. But they have shown a lot of initiative and a commitment to the US that many who just fill out a form haven't done. So they ought to get some consideration, especially if they willingly take the opportunity to make themselves legal.

Dave

I always suspected you must have had some vested financial interest in illegal immigration.

Richard, it's a charity, I take no profit from it - in fact, I pay in a good deal of volunteer time and donated money, so don't waste your sanctimonious judgements on me. What do you do to volunteer in your community?

Dave

And Common Sense (what name could be more inappropriate), the government makes a LOT of things illegal for stupid and nonsensical reasons which could potentially be good for the country. I need only point out to you the glaring example of our ridiculous war on hemp, a valuable natural resource which could benefit the entire nation both commercially and medically yet the psychoactive form is banned alltogether and you can't grow the harmless form in the US and have to import it if you want to make sure of it.

Just because the government says something that certainly doesn't make it right or a good idea. The government often reflects the perspective of ignorant masses who've been stampeded into supporting ridiculous policies.

And BTW, we already DO have illegal immigration from southeast asia - lots and lots of it. And many of them are brought in and kept in a state of virtual slavery, which is even worse. Forced to work in sweatshops and brothels, involuntarily addicted to drugs and mercilessly exploited. It's far worse than anything that goes on over the border with Mexico.

Dave

They are still here illegally. Too bad these hardworking, wanting a better life people couldn't come here through the front door without breaking the law. Hmmmm.........what would the Mexican government do to me if they caught me working in that country?? The I want a better life crap would be out the window. No country can survive without secure borders and no country can survive will mass poverty entering a nation. This is not about liberalism nor conservatism. Frankly, it is about our survival as a nation.

This "compassionate conservatism" is making me sick. How about compassion for the American people who have communities ruined with these illegal aliens. You should see the town that I had to move away from. It looks like little Mexico. I don't see Ted Kennedy or other immigrant supporters living in places like that. Once they live side by side with them like I did for many years, then I'll listen to their side.

1. Send a brick to Congress at sendabrick.com

2. Sponsor a Stop the Invasion billboard at grassroots.org (many are going up all across the US)

3. Report all business lawbreakers who hire illegal aliens to wehirealiens.com

Any who loves this Mexican Invasion should visit this site : rcyb.info

THEY ARE RECRUITING YOUNG LATINOS AND ARE PLANNING AN "ARMED REVOLUTION"!!!!!!!

We will pay dearly if we don't do the House plan. Call, fax, email, and write everyone in the house of representatives to demand the house demand.

When both Gonzo and Bing spew the same poorly conceived cookie-cutter rationalizations for their paranoid anti-immigrant fervor, it's a sure sign there is a major propaganda campaign underway.

Fact of the matter is, if we deported all the lawbreakers just for being lawbreakers, this nation would be depopulated until the only ones left here would be a few thousand Amish and Mennonites.

Kudos to Dave for holding to a higher standard of reasoning.

Raspberries to all the hatemongers babbling about "invasion" and other such nonsense on stilts.

Methinks #s 45, 46, & 47 are some sort of coordinated email campaign.

Traditionally, I disagree with Dave but I do think he's made an excellent point here:

And BTW, we already DO have illegal immigration from southeast asia - lots and lots of it. And many of them are brought in and kept in a state of virtual slavery, which is even worse. Forced to work in sweatshops and brothels, involuntarily addicted to drugs and mercilessly exploited. It's far worse than anything that goes on over the border with Mexico.

A grossly overlooked issue.

I have lived in Los Angeles for years and still travel to LA and San Diego quite often. From my experience I can tell you, the Latino immigrants are mostly decent and hard working people and they are here just to have a better life like the ancestors of all of you who immigrated to America - the land of opportunity. Don't forget that.

If illegal immigraton is indeed a problem, then legalize it appropriately-do whatever so that they can stay and lead a life of security and safety that all of you enjoy.

Bingo, Clavos. #45, #46 and #47 were indeed written by the same person. Like many of those opposing immigration reform he has more rabid hatred than good sense or courtesy.

Dave

Victor, what amazes me is that groups like Mecha support and believe in craziness like an armed uprising, and they're balanced out by nuts like the Minutemen who think there are actually people who listen to Mecha or that they're the voice of the immigrant population. When the reality is that neither extreme makes any sense at all and no one who matters takes either group seriously except when it helps advance their political agenda - which in the current environment is mostly getting reelected on pure hatemongering.

Dave

Anecdotes are fun, but serious academic studies show that - financially speaking - illegal immigration is at most a wash. Other studies show it costs Californians hundreds of dollars per household per year. Is there even one serious academic study showing a clear, substantial financial gain from illegal immigration?

I respond to the common canard "they're just coming to work" here:

immref.com

And, massive illegal immigration from Mexico also gives the government of Mexico political power inside the U.S. There are even Mexican consuls given desks inside Border Patrol offices.

The Mexican government works with several U.S. "human rights" groups to advance their agenda, they spread propaganda to U.S. schoolchildren, they conduct mobile consulates where they give ID cards to illegal aliens, they even attend city council meetings trying to get local officials to accept those IDs.

And, illegal immigration leads to massive political corruption in the U.S. as our representatives are basically bought off by those who profit from illegal immigration.

And, it reduces the worth of U.S. citizenship. For instance, some illegal aliens are able to get discounted college educations that some U.S. citizens are not eligible for. In other words, the government is taking something away from a U.S. citizen and giving it to a citizen of another country.

So, those who are serious about this issue and are able to look at everything involved realize just how much a problem it is.

That's odd, wacko. When I go looking for actual studies, you know with real data from verifiable sources, they all suggest that immigrants pull their weight or more than pull their weight in society. And good job repeating all those old wives tales you trotted out.

Here are a couple of things for you to read:

Oregon State Study

Five Myths About Immigration - everyone should read this as a starting point for an informed discussion of this topic.

And let me also point you to this article from the Reason Foundation which suggests that illegals pay considerably more into the economy than I estimated earlier.

Dave

Good stuff Dave. Keep up the bad ass work!

Hey netizens. Just weighing in here. I managed to read more than I ever hope to again on this topic. Other people have made the most pertainent points. I love my many Mexican friends. They all have illegal documents. They all have several children who were born in the U.S. under public care, and who are by law citizens of America. They are under- paid sometimes, often by their own. Some are getting rich. They are rarely insured for their automobiles. They have a very well established network to attain their objectives. Many violations of law. If they are caught, they will be responsible for their actions. They send their money home. They do not feel like Americans, nor do they want to be. They are Mexicans. They are in Minnesota, in Wisconsin in Georgia, in Utah, in New Mexico, in California, all places that I've lived. You need not live in Austin, TX to understand and be in contact with these realities first hand, so let the hot air out somewhere else. To say that they should not be harrassed or detained or deported by U.S. law enforcement officials because of forged papers and illegal entry is in my mind not very clever thinking. If the industry of false identity is free to the takers, look out buddy. It is incredibly easy to do, and exists in every city. It is a highly paid industry, for all the reasons which you may suspect. Mexicans don't all stay in TX. What is the solution? I now live in Asia, and if I were to over-stay my visa, or get aprehended working illegally, or with falsified papers, it is VERY SERIOUS. Incarceration, deportation, confiscation of assets. No chance to say PLEASE, I'm a very hard working man. So the original poster has some human sypathies. Good. But if you broadly apply the lack of consequences that he advocates, well, go to Mexico and try to get away with the same. Go to Thailand and break the law. Go to Australia and get busted. These immigrants want something from the U.S. economy. They have come here with criminal intent to take it at their own peril. Assistance to illegals is given at the expense of fair application of the legal code. It is a kick in the face of lawfulness. There is no arguement to provide that $9.50 per hour jobs go begging these days. That is simply false. And please, accept that many people are being realistic and honest when they point all of this out. Clearly this is not a question of ethnicity, but of application of existing laws. Maybe we should all get a couple of false identities, just in case we want to visit Mexico and break the law.

I don't advocate lack of consequences, just APPROPRIATE consequences for a relatively trivial and arbitrary crime.

As for the $9.50 an hour, I doubt that you can hire a native born American who's a skilled baker for that, hence the need to hire illegals.

Most of the rest of your points about all the terrible things illegals do are standard disinformation which doesn't hold up when examined factually.

Dave

white people or black or whatever, who think that they are america's natives, are just a bunch of butthole sucking morons, YOU ARE NOT!!!, let me repeat this loud and clear, so that your small little brains would understand better, JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PIECE OF NUMBERS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU OWN THIS LAND NOR NATIVE TO IT!!!.
It was taken forcefully from the american indians, they are the natives. It is like if europe being invaded by negros and then they started to say that europe is their native land, it is laughable.
Is... this land is yours because your forefathers managed to wipe out the real natives to this land and claimed it because they are stronger? because the natives are just animals, if you think so, then you might live in year 2006 but your brains are of year 1500s, you are the real animals not deserve living in this land.
And the last thing, if you want to get a job that pays well or even just a job, WORK FOR IT! morons, don't just sit around sodomizing yourself all day and hope to get a job of $50,000 a year just because "(whining) I got numbers, (whining again) I'm the natives", if you got numbers so what, you don't have no respect for what you don't earn it.

Congratlutions Victor...you win the idiot of the day award.


"Fact of the matter is, if we deported all the lawbreakers just for being lawbreakers, this nation would be depopulated until the only ones left here would be a few thousand Amish and Mennonites."

Is that so? I think the only law we deport people for is coming into this nation illegally and we're not even enforcing that law.

Fact of the matter...........if we deported all the ILLEGAL ALIENS this nation would not fall apart. It's the biggest crock of shit going.

Fact of the matter............between healthcare, social welfare, gangs, motor vehicle accidents without insurance and other costs....ILLEGAL ALIENS cost this nation much more then they give to it.

Maybe you'd like to pretend we don't have any borders at all and let anyone who wants come in here and screw us over Victor but I don't.

Is Bush reinventing the BILL? from 2002--must read


Gekas introduces major reform

Rep. George Gekas (R-PA), the chair of the House Immigration Subcommittee, has introduced the SAFER Act of 2002. This legislation would implement many of the immigration-related reforms of two federal commissions of the 1990s: the late Barbara Jordan's U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform and former Senator Tim Wirth's President's Council on Sustainable Development. This includes significant reductions in overall immigration numbers.

In addition, the SAFER Act includes much needed security reforms that would create an effective interior enforcement strategy and step up immigration related anti-terrorism measures.

Send a fax to your Representative in support of the SAFER Act.


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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
June 25, 2002

CONTACT: KENT WISSINGER
DAY: (202) 226-0555
EVENING: (202) 225-2981

WHO
Congressman George W. Gekas (R-Pa.) will introduce the SAFER (Securing America's Future through Enforcement Reform) Act. Joining Gekas will be co-sponsors of the bill (H.R. 5013).

WHAT
The SAFER Act will make sweeping changes to the Immigration and Nationality Act to ensure a safer America. The major themes of the bill are the following:

Securing the Border

Screening Aliens Seeking Admission

Tracking Aliens in the United States

Removing Alien Terrorists, Criminals, and Human Rights Violators

Enhancing Enforcement of the Immigration and Nationality Act in the Interior

Eliminating Excessive Review and Abusive Tactics by Aliens in Removal Proceedings

Verifying Citizenship Status of Voters in Federal Elections

Reforming Legal Immigration
WHEN
Wednesday, June 26, 2002
10:00 a.m.

WHERE
Rayburn Building
Room 2141 - Judiciary Committee



HOT TOPICS

Visa Tracking
Section 245(i)
H-1B Visas
Overall Reductions

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"critical step"
-- Rep. Tom Tancredo,
chairman, Congressional Immigration caucus

Tancredo, the most visible national leader for immigration reform and reduction, joined Chairman Gekas at the press conference introducing H.R. 5013. He said the Gekas billl is the "second critical step toward the reform of our dysfunctional immigration system," the first step being the White House plan to reorganize the government. The White House reorganization, according to Tancredo, will create the institutional framework for effective immigration enforcement; H.R. 5013 will create a sensible policy framework. .

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Bush gave a speech this morning in which he said the govt would help people "assimilate" into American society. I guess he was so happy that someone told him what the word means this morning that he felt the need to explain the word as he went on to add "that means we will help them learn our language, values, and culture."

I can't believe I voted for this douchebag.

John Kerry........


Oh yeah I can believe it. I'm just pissed that I had to.

You didn't HAVE to vote for him, AC. You could have voted for Michael Badnarik like I did. Kerry wasn't the only other choice.

Dave

I couldn't vote for Bush. Kerry was hopeless. Badnarik is unconcerned about borders.

I abstained for the first time in my voting life.

Help, I'm confused!
Is this the same man who wrote in a Jan 7, 05 letter that there is no reason an American worker should have a problem living on minimum wage salary? In case you didn't know that is $5.35 an hour, $214.00 a week before deductions, gross $11,128.00 a year! That's hard core, man!
He did the math, it all worked out just fine on paper. As I read this article I thought,'this guy has obviously never been in that position, with no one to turn to when you overload, which you eventually will',or 'this guy must not eat, drive or date, ever'! He is most definitely a coldheart. Not an empathetic bone in his body! What a lucky man he was!
But wait!
Here is that same man, sympathy oozing from every pore, defending the situation of millions of lawbreaking malcontents who aren't willing to follow the letter of the law, as do millions from other countries around the world who work hard within the letter of the law, follow the system and all it demands in order to become Americans.
These are the people we want in this country, not people who break our laws before even becomming citizens.
So, where do you stand? Screw Americans who are trying to survive under the law even though it calls for them to earn literally slave wages, wages which I myself had to survive on once, working two full time jobs and still needed assistance from family in order to make child support payments OR lets extend a helping hand to people who break our laws to come into our country to work.
Understand, I'm not comparing apples to oranges, the situations are obviously quite different.
I'm trying to figure out why Illegal aliens warrant empathy from an American but some poor American who finds himself down on his luck gets scribbles from a calculator!

Dave, so you are telling me that the immigrant was a skilled baker when he came here. I highly doubt it. I don't want to sit here and bash different sides, but just for things to be made right. It sounds like everyone arguing for the illegals are arguing for open borders and allow anyone who wants in, to waltz right in. If that is the case, those people are ignorant. However, if anyone listened to Bush's speech, he went through what seemed to be a starting point.

You all say immigrants are taking unwanted jobs which is very untrue. I go to college in the Chicago area, and work with many illegals whom have falsified papers. They are working jobs that make $16+ an hour. It is hard to find decent work like that in this area and I happened to be lucky enough to show up at the right day to land the job there.

What needs to be done is close the borders better, allow any illegals here go through the due process if they want to become a citizen, and if they don't want to be citizens and be still be a lawbreaking immigrant then deport them.

Dave, so you are telling me that the immigrant was a skilled baker when he came here. I highly doubt it.

Why, Tim?

I just doubted that the job required there to even be this very skilled baker. It was probably a job that anyone could learn is what I was getting at.... I could be wrong though I guess

comment #57 sez...
*As for the $9.50 an hour, I doubt that you can hire a native born American who's a skilled baker for that, hence the need to hire illegals.*

now, correct me if i am wrong, but doesn't capitalism require that if you cannot get something for a price due to supply and demand, the price increases until the demand is met via supply?

here i thought that was a prime tenet, i wonder why this doesn't seem to apply to labor in the minds of many...and it STILL does NOT justify knowingly hiring an illegal alien

Victor in comment #48 sez...
*When both Gonzo and Bing spew the same poorly conceived cookie-cutter rationalizations for their paranoid anti-immigrant fervor, it's a sure sign there is a major propaganda campaign underway.*

first, any regular reader knows full well that Bing and i are in diametric opposition on the vast majority of Issues....so when we do agree, there just might be something worth looking at...

also to Victor, i take offense at your characterization of my comments, the analysis of which is so distorted that it makes me think you didn't even bother to read them

NEVER have i advocated for wholesale deportation...instead i stated quite clearly that the borders should be secured, and current laws enforced...THEN we can debate and decide what to do with those illegals who are in the country

now i did also state that utilizing forged federal documents is a felony, a crime which should be addressed, and i also have many times pointed out that those who entered illegally should get behind EVERY SINGLE legal applicant for immigration...those who have followed the rules should reap the rewards LONG before those who knowingly broke the Law

simple enough?

Excelsior?

rarely do I agree with gonzo...

but for the second time in this thread I do!

All five of these workers were hired on the basis of what appeared to be legitimate work visas and social security cards. The employer had no idea that they were illegal and no reason to question them based on their documentation. It was not a matter of turning a blind eye. He had specifically checked their papers and they seemed legitimate.

I can see this culminating in a new government agency...more new regulations and paperwork for small business owners. The CIA - Check on Illegal Aliens


It seems today that we live in a world where personal responsibility should have no consequence. Big Daddy (Government) should fix everything for me. I think middle America is about to tell Big Daddy to lay down the crack pipe of socialism and get the hell off our backs.

I'm one of the first in line!

I was wanting to write something like Gonzo just did, but didn't think I could have said it very well. But, the reason noone wants some of these low priced jobs is because immigrants are driving the pay down cause some are willing to work for nothing. They are simply messing up supply and demand for this country.

well Ginz, the fact that the workers produced proper documentations is why the employer is not culpable nor liable for criminal charges under the 1986 laws

which i did state earlier in the thread....the ones i want to see fined/jailed are the employers who knowingly and willingly hire illegals

many instances of companies using the SAME social security numbers for hundreds of employees, but due ot regulations the SS administration and the IRS don't seem to be able to report this fact to the proper enforcement agencies

isn't that not only unfair to every legal working person, but a threat to National Security as well?

side note: thanks for the intellectual honesty Maurice..i know we often do disagree, but you have never come across as any kind of unthinking partisan...if more were like you , more could actually get done...and our Nation woudl be a better place...

just my one sixth billionths of the world's Opinion...

your mileage may vary

Excelsior?

correction: my apologies, the first line should have said "Gina" not "Ginz"

Excelsior?

Tim:

They are simply messing up supply and demand for this country.

You're right, they are skewing the lower pay scales, but not those of the whole country, because the vast majority of those "wetbacking" across the border have few or no skills--this is one of the principal reasons they're coming; they can't find work at home. When they do find work, it usually pays $5 USD or less a day.

The better educated/trained people mostly have no desire to move here; they're doing fine at home. The few of that group who do want to move here usually are well-connected enough and have enough money to hire the right people to help them come legally.

I worked for many years for a Mexican company with operations here in the USA--we never had any trouble bringing in a skilled, educated Mexican worker legally.

clavos: "When [illegal immigrants] do find work, it usually pays $5 USD or less a day."

what have you been reading, the grapes of wrath? okies... less than 5 bucks a day... can't buy lunch with that. if they were being payed that little, do you really, really think they would come here? oh, wait, that's $5 tax free! nevermind...

comment #76 sez...
*But not all companies have the resources to recruit legally in Mexico and so workers take initiative and come to where the jobs are. It's a natural process.*

and thus does this commentor condone not only breaking the law by entering the country illegally, but refers to it as "taking initiative" when they do...and then applauds the companies that knowingly hire said illegals , calling it "a natural process"

well...i guess it could be, if you considered Dillinger robbing banks because he wanted money a "natural process"

excuse me while i go and throw up now

Excelsior?

you must have made a mistake. or maybe you were having a larf?

jeez. 79 continues 77. 78 is overstating dave's point.

The better educated/trained people

Sorry, I should have said "white collar workers", which is the group that has little incentive to leave Mexico.

I should add I'm speaking only of Mexicans--I don't know much, if anything, about Central American workers, except that we have a lot of them here in South Florida these days; many of them ARE working in construction jobs, of which we have too many (jobs, not immigrants) available down here (can you tell I'm anti-development?).

Dave and zing:

The less than $5 a day work I was referring to is in Mexico, not here--that's my point, they come here for better wages; sorry if that wasn't clear.

You are missing the point...they were criminals when they violated the border, they were felons when they used false IDs. It is time to rev up our national capability to get things done and remove all the illegals including those overstaying visas. If it causes them pain so be it. Then pass laws that mirror the country of origin for the way that we treat illegals. In that particular case Mexicans would get a rough deal because Mexico gives illegals a rough deal. I am not aware of any other country that offers open borders but we could mirror laws for their nationals too.

REMOVE ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS NOW!

ok. minimum wage is pretty low in mexico. and maybe the ones that cross the border are the ones making minimum wage there.

Zing, even the higher wages for skilled workers are pretty low in Mexico. Would you rather make $10 a day or $10 an hour?

And gonzo, you're a fine fellow and on the right side of many issues, but on this you shock me with how absolutely dead wrong you are. Usually you take the moral and ethical high ground, but your bizarre adherence to a poorly conceived and clearly unworkable law is atypical.

When a law is unfair, bad for everyone involved, and poorly administered that's a sign the law needs to be changed, not a sign to step up enforcement in a rabid and irrational way.

This is EXACTLY the same issue as the war on drugs. In that situation the solution to bad laws which don't work has been to spend more money and waste more resources and destroy more lives trying to make the broken laws work rather than fixing them.

You seem incapable of learning from that lesson and just want to repeat the same mistake with immigration.

Laws are supposed to conform to nature and to the best interests of the population. When they don't and government enforces them dogmatically you're looking at tyrrany.

Dave

Gonzo, when I see you and Bing agreeing on an emotional hot-button issue like this, it might be a sign there is something to your arguments. But then I look at your actual arguments, such as they are, and see they are all self-contradictory and poorly thought out.

So I conclude you just both happened to randomly drink the same Kool-Aid for once, probably due to the influence of emotional passions that cloud your thinking on this issue, despite the fact that your usual choices of ideological beverage are diametrically opposed.

Why should the "crime" of crossing an imaginary line on a map without official permission be considered any more heinous than the "crime" of walking across a street against a signal light? Nobody has answered this question in any way that is even remotely convincing while still compatible with basic ideas of human freedom. I doubt anyone ever will.

"Reading the Grapes of Wrath" that's funny. But you guys are green. The going wage for day labor especially illegals has been and usually like 50 USD. Here in north Texas I can go to almost any corner and pick up someone to work for a day.

Or they now have a center, where no one goes, and you can get a worker for the day. The going wage is 50 bucks. Now if they work for a good 8 hours then that is 6.25 USD per hour. If they work for ten hours as some do with lawn services then it would be 5.00 USD per hour.

I think it is somewhere in the middle. Yes, I have used illegal aliens to do some concrete work around the house and Mexicans to lay the hardwood floors in my house. Now, I don't know if they were legal or not. But the ones who did my floor sure as hell did not learn that in ONE day, albeit may have learned it OTJ--on the job.

For safety reasons I have never picked up someone to work for me because I live alone and I think that most of them are sex criminals--I can hardly walk down the street without one of those damn things following me in their car or truck. I have HAD to call the PO-PO on them many times for just this.

But using references from middle class white folks that I know I have used their labor to get my historic house livable.

Heloise

"As was the case with the five taken in this raid, they were indistinguishable from their native co-workers, just workers filling a need and supporting their families."

Indistinguishable from their native co-workers you say? What are you baking into the bread--hashish? Or are all the workers there Mexicans? Buddy I've been and spent lots of time in Austin and most of the folks there in the downtown area are not only whiiite but they are German white with blond hair, big tits and blue eyes. So who the hell are these workers blending in with?

I know too that the cost of living in Austin is also high like the bread you are baking. So the fact that they are making over or near 10 USD a hour ain't shit in a place like Austin.

They seem like us but they are probably living like 20 to a house or room. Don't kid yourself. Nice article about Austin. I miss it.

Heloise

Heloise

"Furthermore, and again to no fault of my wife or anyone, I make an obscene number of trips to the local emergency room each month, (see "Small Town and Big Time") and I notice each time that the demographics are nearly the same every visit. Approximately 70% Black, 20% elderly White, and 10% Hispanic." (what the hell is wrong with you?)

You're stats might show that blacks overuse the ER and this is probably true. They may be poor and this too may be true for your community. But one thing this one-sided cherry picking thing does not show is the fact that the illegal Mexican alien (let's call it what it is) is MUCH younger than both black and white populations in this country.

That makes a big difference. Besides most of them are AFRAID to show up in an ER. Eventually the people who bring them here tell them it is fucking OK to use the ER, I mean misuse IT the same as black folks do and apparently your ass too.

Heloise

From the couple of times I've been to the emergency room the illegals who are there seem to be there to get medicine for sick kids. Of course, they're a small minority of those who are in the waiting area, even though I go to a hospital that's right on the edge of a rather poor neighborhood. Last time I was there - for the embarassing malady of a bug having crawled into my ear and died - there were about 20 anglos, a handful of african americans and two hispanic families with a total of 5 kids. For whatever that means.

Dave

Victor...

you seem to be laboring from the misunderstanding that i am operating from some "emotional hot button" viewpoint...

nothing could be further from the Truth

in actuality my concern about illegal aliens come frmo a few quite cold and rational, as well as indisputable Facts...

1) we are talking about people who entered ILLEGALLY...this has the impact of breaking American law as well as jumping in front of those who are attempting to enter this country legally by following the Rules for gaining access to work or become citizens

2) many of those illegal aliens utilize stolen or falsified documentation...identity theft is a FELONY, and causes no end of grief for those whose ID is stolen

3) utilization of illegal aliens as part of the workforce places artificial downward pressure on hourly wage jobs... the price of Labor should be determined by supply and demand in a capitalistic economy...and by artificially increasing the supply by utilizing illegal workers you decrease demand and thus keep the price of Labor down, negatively impacting LEGAL workers seeking to better themselves

4) the 1986 Law passed last time this Issue came around was supposed to solve this by granting amnesty, the estimate was approximately 500,000 would be taken in using the program....over 2.5 million came in, many falsifying the paperwork for the process
a) under the 1986 Law the border was to be SECURED...it has not been...this is not only a problem when it comes to illegal immigrants, but remains a hole in National Security
b) under the 1986 Law, employers who hired illegals were supposed to be fined and or prosecuted...such has not occured
c) due to the above, the Problem of illegal immigration which was supposed to have been lessened, if not resolved completely, instead has gotten MUCH worse as employers blatantly hire illegals and millions more have crossed the border to live here

now, once more, i will put forward my position as to a possible course of action...and after you read this, then try again to tell me i am being emotional, reactionary or xenophobic in any way...

1) seal the fucking borders tight...PERIOD
2) enforce the Laws on the books already, the provisions of the 1986 Law are a great start while any changes are worked out legislatively
3) THEN we can begin the national dialogue about what to do with the illegals already in the country...my contention here is that any who have violated the Law beyond merely crossing the border be deported (this means identity theft or any other crime, we don't even bust these folks for driving without a license/insurance...go look up what that alone costs us)....those who have been good citizens can get in the back of the legal Immigration line...pay some sort of fine (monetary or public service/military)...and follow the procedures to legally become an american citizen

hope that helps make my points clear and removes any doubt as to the Fact that i am operating out of a code of Ethics and not emotions

Excelsior?

you seem to be laboring from the misunderstanding that i am operating from some "emotional hot button" viewpoint...

When the position you take and the arguments you give to support it are irrational, that's the kind of response you can expect to provoke. We expect that sort of thing from others, but we've hope for better from you in the past.

1) we are talking about people who entered ILLEGALLY...this has the impact of breaking American law as well as jumping in front of those who are attempting to enter this country legally by following the Rules for gaining access to work or become citizens

I drove my pickup at 120mph down an empty highway at 2am yesterday. That makes me a criminal. Are you going to deport me? Perhaps separate me from my family and take away my job?

2) many of those illegal aliens utilize stolen or falsified documentation...identity theft is a FELONY, and causes no end of grief for those whose ID is stolen

Except that they use the SSNs of dead people and/or they don't take out credit cards and deal only in cash, all so they reduce their chance of getting caught. So no harm is actually done to anyone, no 'grief' is caused.

3) utilization of illegal aliens as part of the workforce places artificial downward pressure on hourly wage jobs...

Which you bizarrely think is a BAD thing. We have a serious problem in the US with wage inflation, and in a nation of consumers where the economy is literally driven by consumption, that's a very dangerous thing.

the price of Labor should be determined by supply and demand in a capitalistic economy...and by artificially increasing the supply by utilizing illegal workers you decrease demand and thus keep the price of Labor down, negatively impacting LEGAL workers seeking to better themselves

Or more precisely creating an environment where wages are reasonable for the work done, but not so high that they don't encourage people to improve their education and look for better jobs, while at the same time keeping prices for consumers relatively reasonable.

In fact, all the illegals really do, is provide more consumers to buy more goods and services, and more workers to produce those goods and provide those services. They aren't just a wage lowering engine, they're people and they consume and contribute in myriad ways to the economy just like anyone else.

4) the 1986 Law passed

It makes no sense at all to use the failure of the 1986 law as an excuse for not supporting efforts to do the job correctly today. Effective immigration reform HAS to combine both security improvements AND a means to address our need for labor and Mexicans need for a better wage. Just doing security means that the border will become an even bigger and more volatile problem.

1) seal the fucking borders tight...PERIOD

Impossible at any sane cost, of course.

2) enforce the Laws on the books already, the provisions of the 1986 Law are a great start while any changes are worked out legislatively

But that law isn't being enforced because many of the measures were so draconian that the enforcement agencies basically refused to employ them. That's why the law needs to be replaced with one which puts the emphasis on dealing with the problem rather than denial and arbitrary punishment and destruction.

3) THEN we can begin the national dialogue about what to do with the illegals already in the country...my contention here is that any who have violated the Law beyond merely crossing the border be deported (this means identity theft or any other crime, we don't even bust these folks for driving without a license/insurance...go look up what that alone costs us)....those who have been good citizens can get in the back of the legal Immigration line...pay some sort of fine (monetary or public service/military)...and follow the procedures to legally become an american citizen

Well now, this part is perfectly reasonable, except that since we're already debating the issue, why not put the solution to how to deal with the illegals in the bill at the same time as everything else so we have a single, comprehensive plan.

Dave

#92 sez...
*I drove my pickup at 120mph down an empty highway at 2am yesterday. That makes me a criminal. Are you going to deport me? Perhaps separate me from my family and take away my job?*

nope, but you should do some jail time and probably have your license revoked, depending on your state law...apples and oranges...far beneath even you here..

and then sez...
*Except that they use the SSNs of dead people and/or they don't take out credit cards and deal only in cash, all so they reduce their chance of getting caught. So no harm is actually done to anyone, no 'grief' is caused.*

a complete and utter fucking lie...just this evening there were quite a few cases in the news, one lady had over 200 illegal aliens using her SS number and birth certificate, which were sold in a Texas flea market....you appear to be quite ignorant about how the criminal element which deals in these papers operates...they don't give a fuck, and neither do their customers

and then it goes on and sez...
*Which you bizarrely think is a BAD thing. We have a serious problem in the US with wage inflation, and in a nation of consumers where the economy is literally driven by consumption, that's a very dangerous thing.*

yes, yes i do think that fucking with the law of supply and demand when it comes to Labor and wages IS a problem..as you stated about this being a consumer driven society...those consumers NEED to make decent money if we are going to pay for the rest of the world by buying their outsourced good and services...see i'm funny...i WANT the American worker to be well paid for being more productive and creative in their work than anyone else...silly of me i guess...

on and on...this commentor continuously shows he is all for cheap illegal labor and has no care in resolving the problem or addressing the problems that arise from this practice...

so fucking many are advocating the status quo just to keep thei rcheap gardeners, nannys, day laborers...or the illicit fruits of such labor

i'll stand by every fucking word of what i put in comment #91

as for it not being possible to secure the border...not 100%, i'll grant you...but 90-95%...easily, and cheaper than what we have spent in a year in Iraq...but you don't want Answers, you want cheap labor

fuck that

Excelsior?

I'll share a personal anecdote. My sister and hee husband have a child with a neuromuscular disorder who needs help dressing herself and care every day after school. There's no way they can afford a visiting nurse 5 days a week when they both work to make enough to cover medical bills and their daughter's special school, but for room and board plus $200 a month they can get a live in guatemalan girl who works half days outdide the home and takes care of the kid in the afternoons.

Would they have this option without our current relatively open borders?

You know gonzo if we had a guest worker program with federal IDs for the workers yer whole SSN theft issue goes pffffft.

Gonzo, when you call for insanely impossible ideas like "sealing" thousands of miles of borderlines and coastlines, there is nothing rational about your proposals.

When you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of doing so only because they want to personally profit from cheap labor, and you pepper your diatribes with unnecessary obscenities, it's clear your arguments are based more on emotion than on reason or logic.

Where can I get a live in Gautemalan girl? I have some pipes that need cleaning!!! Just in case my wife reads this...I'm kidding honey!

You see that's the whole problem...if you're sister was an illegal alien she'd probably get those services for her child from the govt for free!

Yup, I did read this honey, but I'm not worried, I know your pipes don't need cleaning,.....at least not at the moment. :)

She's such a dirty girl! But I like her!

Lumpy....read what i said about those in the country again carefully...if it is decided to give those folks green cards while they wait their turn for citizenship, i'm fine with that

of course, then they fall under US worker protections for OSHA and minimum wage , etc....but i'm ok with them staying and working ...i just require the problem of more coming in illegally to be solved BEFORE offering incentives for more to cross the border illegally....see what happened after the 1986 amnesty until now for my concerns (and i am sorry to hear about the problems of your family member).....but your example shows more of why our healthcare system is broken than why we need illegal workers

Victor...my proposal to better secure the borders is not impossible, it's quite do-able with todays technology and by assigning proper resources...a much simpler project than the Hoover Dam or the Panama canal, and those were done quite a while ago without current technology.....as for my fucking obscenities amidst my diatribe...you may want to check who i wa aiming those at...it was not you...my answer to you was comment #91..."fucking borders" was the only bit of "color" there...as you will note, fucking is used as an adjective towards the border...you may not like my style, but i am rather careful where i aim things... the next response was much harsher, but was aimed at another commentor...i am certain you can easily see the difference in tone....and i did not "accuse everyone"..what i said was...
*so fucking many are advocating the status quo just to keep their cheap gardeners, nannys, day laborers...or the illicit fruits of such labor*

"so fucking many" is NOT everyone...i am well aware that to some, it is a matter of principle, i give you this credit...which is why the tone of my response to you in comment #91 is much different than my later comment to another person

hope that helps, but obviously there is going to remain a vast difference of thought on this Issue

again, my concern is not to deport all 12-20 million of those here immediately, but to remove the demand by enforcing the law and prosecuting employers who hire illegals, close up the border (Kinky Friedmans 5 generals plan looks like fun and a good start), and then set up some process where legal immigrants get to utilize the system, and those who came illegally but want to stay have a clear path towards citizenship

Excelsior?

Thanks for clarifying your stance, Gonzo. I still disagree with you on the feasibility of sealing borders, but it is now clear you are far more reasonable than those who think we can deport all the people who are already here illegally.

You are also absolutely right about the necessity of setting up a clear path toward legal status for the workers who are already here and are generally law-abiding members of their communities.

Whether this means citizenship or a new status of guest worker with the full protection of all existing labor laws, it would be a definite improvement on the current state of affairs, and would let us focus limited enforcement resources on the much smaller set of truly dangerous and immoral lawbreakers.

i am very glad to have made myself more clear Victor, and i do agree there is no easy answer to this thorny problem that has been caused by neglect and non-enforcement of the 1986 laws.

remember as for criminals, i do count those who have committed identity theft as the felons that they are under our current legal system, and they should be among those deported

but as for those hard working folks who are here and want to become citizens, we do need to think of a fair way to accomplish that...but i still stress they should go to the back of the line behind those that are trying to enter the country legally and have been following proper protocol

what some are not going to like is that obtaining citizenship requires a lot of work, and some study...knowledge of our Constitution and a working knowledge of english IS required....go and look it up

but i'm all for reasonable soloutions that do not reward those who have broken the law

Excelsior?

It is amazing to me that this issue seems to have reversed many of the positions of the people at this site. Dave normally comes across as Spock - cold hard logic that is undisputable. Now he comes across as emotional and empathetic. One bit of false logic from Dave:

"Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico."

This seems to imply that only 'if you been there can you know'!

I view immigration as allowing someone to come into my home. Since I have 5 kids I often have MANY visitors to my home. I make a point to meet each and every visitor. My wife and I have sometimes banned certain visitors from our house.

I think we should keep track of our visitors in this country. Dave (the emotional empath) is right about the mexican people being generally hard working nice people. I just want to moniter ALL our visitors.

It is amazing to me that this issue seems to have reversed many of the positions of the people at this site. Dave normally comes across as Spock - cold hard logic that is undisputable. Now he comes across as emotional and empathetic.

Certainly not intentional, just a result of the fact that this particular article is based on a real-life case of specific individuals rather than the statistics and data I usually deal in. I have a more technical article in the works.

One bit of false logic from Dave:

"Paul, I think it's very telling that almost all of the major supporters of building a wall and increasing border enforcement live in northern states - most of them bordering on Canada, not Mexico."

This seems to imply that only 'if you been there can you know'!

Not exactly, but I am suggesting that those of us who live in the Southwest have a hell of a lot more contact with the illegal population and get to see day to day the roles they are filling in society and the overall positive nature of their contribution. James Sensenbrenner has probably never even seen an illegal.

I view immigration as allowing someone to come into my home. Since I have 5 kids I often have MANY visitors to my home. I make a point to meet each and every visitor. My wife and I have sometimes banned certain visitors from our house.

But immigrants don't come into your house any more than anyone else does and certainly not without your permission. You have no say in what legal immigrants come here either, but you're not trying to shut down all immigration. Or are you?

I think we should keep track of our visitors in this country. Dave (the emotional empath) is right about the mexican people being generally hard working nice people. I just want to moniter ALL our visitors.

I agree. And the way to do that is to provide a safe, trackable and legal way for them to come here to work under a guest worker program. So long we are trying to close the borders we will never be able to control or know who is coming through despite our efforts. That cannot be the main element of the effort to deal with immigration.

Dave

comment #104 sez...
*Not exactly, but I am suggesting that those of us who live in the Southwest have a hell of a lot more contact with the illegal population*

isn't that just a variation on the "chicken-hawk" argument?

just goes to show how low some will stoop, eh?

just a Thought

Excelsior?

Gonzo, the difference is that I'm not saying that those who don't live in the southwest are disqualified from having opinions, just that they may not have as much personal experience of illegal immigration. There are valid reasons for having concerns about immigration which stem from general concerns about national policy, but there's also an awful lot of mischaracterization of immigrants, who they are and what they do, which anyone could correct through some research, but which some of us have first hand experience with.

Dave

no..you imply it , both in the quote i used and earlier in the commentary

care to have me look over it all again and show you?

you also make the assumption that unless you live in a particualr area you have no experience with illegal mexican immigrants....and there show prejudice and ignorance...many parts of the country have quite a large illegal population, and many more folks than you think have direct experience

but no one is saying that the vast majority of these people's only crime is illegally crossing the border...the next larger set are those committing felonies via identity theft, and then the small minority of actual criminals/gang members/smugglers

the first group, as i have stated, shoudl be given the chance...after going to the end of the line and satisfying the qualifications for citizenship as well as any fine/public work to pay back for their coming here illegally...

the latter groups i have just mentioned have lost the priveledge of being in this country IMO, and should be deported or jailed for their crimes

problem with that?

the only other thing i think anyone has asked is that the border is secured to stop any further illegals as well as drug trafficers and human smugglers from getting in as easily...this is also a Natrional security Issue for obvious reasons

nice try at dodging tho...

Excelsior?

I've already said repeatedly that I have no problem with deporting every illegal who's committed a crime beyond those associated with just living in this country. They're the bad apples and need to go.

As for securing the border from drug traffickers, not an issue if we get off our asses and legalize as many drugs as possible.

Regardless of what you may think I implied earlier, I was just addressing the demographics of the issue. Most of the major opponents of immigration seem to be from non-border states with the exception of Tancredo, and most of those more familiar with the border and the illegal immigrant population seem to have a more rational attitude. It's just an observation of fact. Doesn't imply anything more universal or radical than that, and if you think I said it did earlier, I'm telling you now that it didn't.

We basically agree on this issue, except that I don't see massive border redesign as a practical first step, but as one of the parts of a multi-element process, ALL of which need to be implemented at the same time to realistically work.

Dave

What I find disgusting is the Hmong people, who were recruited by the CIA to fight the communist North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War were not automatically made American citizens while illegal immigrants are being proposed this offer. The Hmong people lost hundreds of thousands of lives because they helped the U.S. armed forces. When the U.S. pulled out of South Vietnam, most of the Hmong were left behind to be slaughtered by the communists. Only a few handful escaped, and others were able to come to the U.S. as permanent legal resident aliens. Point? I find it extremely sick that illegal immigrants are going to be granted U.S. citizenship when legitimate legal aliens who served the U.S. and lost their lives for the cause are not being given this same proposal. In fact, even over 2 decades after the U.S. pulled from South Vietnam, there were Hmong refugees living in Thailand, in sickly camps, and being abused by the Thai government. It wasn't until there was a commission in Washington D.C. just a few years ago that the U.S. finally pressured the Thai government to do more, and also to allow more refugees to come to the country they'd served.

Check out: factfinding.org for more information.