Ok, the following is going to be rather long winded, but I feel that the detail I am going into is necessary to illustrate my point:

I do find this somewhat disapointing, but I see the point behind it.

I am mostly disapointed to the extent that I just recently downloaded the upgrade for my 360 to play the older Xbox games that are compatible with it, with the hopes that eventually my whole collection would work with it. But, I still have my Xbox, so its not necessary.

Backwards compatibility is great from a conceptual standpoint, but as of yet I am yet to see it properly executed. And I am sure that many would argue that "PS2 did it right," but I beg to differ.

While PS2 did play most PS1 games, there were some that didn't work at all or had some glitches. I had experienced this with a few titles that I own. Luckily I hung onto my PS1 so I can still play them with no problem.

On top of which, one thing PS2 has become well known for are disc read errors. Typically, over the course of time and use, many PS2 will stop reading certain kinds of discs. Which type varies from case to case. Most often it tends to be the blue CD-Rom PS2 games, but I have heard of it effecting the playability of other types of discs as well (including PS1 discs).

This has actually been a fairly widespread problem with PS2. I personally had this happen with mine a few months back (luckily my fiance and I had just moved in together, and she had a PS2 that still worked fine, so a replacement was not needed). And, long prior to this happening to me, I had heard many horror stories from other people. Just from people that I've actually met who have had their PS2 have this particular malfunction (or who have known someone else who has had this happen to them), I can probably account for about a dozen defective PS2's, including a Gamestop employee who was on his 4th PS2 because of this problem repeating, last I had heard. Keep in mind, this is from people that I've actually met, and is NOT counting the NUMEROUS online stories, which are numerous. Just search google or yahoo for PS2 disc read errors, and you will find many websites dedicated to this particular PS2 malfunction. (I've even seen cases where customers go into stores like Gamestop and Best Buy, are wanting to buy a system and leaning towards PS2, but the employees suggest Xbox as an alternative, specifically stating the PS2 disc read errors problem as a reason).

For the record, I have also met a few people who were surprised to hear this problem when I told them about it and have apparently had no problems with their PS2, so not necessarily every PS2 will have this issue, and some have apparently never had it (though, it could be possible that they just don't use a particular type of disc often with their systems and don't even realize that its not working properly).
Now, before people try to come after me saying "Xbox's and Gamecubes malfunction, too", yes, there are a few 'lemons' out there. Any piece of technology is going to have its issues. However, with those other systems, most any problems I have heard of tend to be few, far between, and isolated random incodents, not ongoing problems. And with this PS2 issue, it has been over the course of the system's existence, not just with launch systems.

I went off on a tangent there, but it was a necessary set up to make my point that I am getting at. I truely believe that a big part of the reason why PS2 tends to have this particular problem is because Sony tried to make it do so many things and read too many different types of discs, which the laser cannot truely handle. And the backwards compatibility unnessarily contributes to this problem, in my opinion.

And now, we are on the the verge of PS3 being released, which will supposedly be compatible with CDs, DVDs, PS1 games, both types of PS2 games, the new Blu-ray PS3 game discs, and the Blu-Ray movie discs. Frankly, I think there will be a greater likelyhood of PS3's malfunctioning as a result. I HOPE that I am wrong, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. If this proves to be true, then this could be worse for PS3 than the $600 price tag. I personally will be holding off on getting one until the price drops and I hear that any problems either don't exist or have been resolved.

Okay, so, after all of that, I'll bring this back to the Xbox 360. Apparently Microsoft felt that trying to make all Xbox games compatible with the 360 right out of the box was not feasable without it inhibitting/holding back the new technology for the newer games. So, I don't blame them for doing things on that level. So, they then went with the emulator based approach. Frankly, I find this approach to be better because unlike PS2 (which still had some PS1 games that didn't work right on it), if a coding for a particular game doesn't work on 360, they could always fix it and make the better version downloadable to the system.

But alas, apparently there wasn't enough interest to keep this going. It is disapointing, but not totally surprising. There's also a lot of potential for problems with the emulator approach. Perhaps a particular coding for an old Xbox game saved on the HD will conflict with some newer 360 game for some reason (much in the same way that programs loaded on a computer can conflict with each other). Well, then it doesn't make much sense for them to push the compatibility with the old games if it can conflict with the newer games.

So, yeah, all-in-all, as I said, backwards compatibility is great conceptually, but its not as practical as many would like.

The only thing I wish for as an alternative is for these companies to continue to produce the old hardware, even if only on a limited basis (to the point where maybe it can only be ordered through their website). Over time, systems will get old and wear out. It would be nice to be able to replace them. And as time goes on, the cost to make them will keep going down, so they could offer them at reasonable prices.

Heck, not to long ago, Nintendo's patent on the original NES system came to an end, and now other companies are producing 'generic' NES systems that are compatible with the old NES games and accessories. One in particular is called Generation Nex, and it looks pretty cool. Either the game companies should continue to produce the old systems, or allow other companies like this to produce alternative, generic, replacement systems after they become obselete from the mainstream market. It would be a nice, simple way to allow gaming to go on.

I don't feel that all new systems should be compatible with the games of their older counterparts, however a way to continue to play the older games should be made available to those who want them. I think that's reasonable all-in-all.

I just paste hear my comments that I sent to the "backcomp team".
----------------------------

Hi.

I am very concerned about this gamesindustry.biz article:

"Nobody is concerned anymore about backwards compatibility. We under promised and over delivered on that. It's a very complicated thing... very complex work. I'm just stunned that we have hundreds of games that are backwards compatible,"

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!

I have been concerned about it for a very long time. Just a sample of my game collection that is NOT compatible:

Doom 3, Indiana Jones, Max Payne, Morrowind, World Racing, Shenmue, Second Sight, Far Cry, Armed and Dangerous, Mafia, Mortal Combat, Midtown Madness 3, ToeJam & Earl 3, Enter the Matrix, Blinx, Beyond Good and Evil, Galleon, Minority Report, Munch Oddysee, Star Wars: Obi Wan, Fahrenheit, Psi Ops: Mindgate Conspiracy, JSRF, Kung Fu Chaos, Panzer Dragoon, Azurik, True Crime, Time Splitters 2, Wolfenstein, WrestleMania 21, Deus Ex, Headhunter, Myst 3, Conker, Pirates of the Caribbean.

Better yet, just compare your compatible list to this list atmetacritic.com:

Just in case you have forgotten that you still have some work to do...

Over promised and under delivered I say. And I thought that you would actually try. You have made me sad.

Janman: Do you have an Xbox? Yes? Then what's the problem?

No? Then why do you have all those games?

I mostly disagree with this article. I think it really depends on if you had the previous system before or not. Backwards compatibility mostly is helpful for those who did not have the previous system. This has the greatest benefit around the system's launch, when the games are expensive and few in number.

PS2 was a great example of this. For those who didn't have a PS1 before, and purchased a PS2 around launch time, they still had plenty to play at launch with PS1 games that were slightly enhanced.

I currently have a PS1 but not a PS2. So a PS3 will be a great deal for me, since I will essentially have 3 systems in one. Contrary to this article, if I get a PS3, I will also purchase many PS2 games for very little money. (That is a selling point for me, and I'm sure many others)

I'm sure that the next version of Xbox will have this resolved by being backwards compatible with all Xbox 360 games from the start. Backwards compatibility encourages some to move on to the next generation a bit more quickly, and sell their old systems to get it. Don't believe me? Watch how many people sell their old systems to get the PS3 when it comes out.

Having said that, with the exception of Playstation series of systems, and the Gamecube if you are getting the Wii, It is often a mistake to sell old systems to get the new ones. I sold my SNES and all of my games to get to the next generation (1995), and I have regretted it ever since.

I think that companies should be mindful that people do not want to have "system clutter", and should follow Playstation's lead in having almost 100% backwards compatibility from the start.

One last point. How do you know how many people play older games on the new systems? Is there a hidden chip on the PS2 or Xbox 360 that beams info to you about what they play on their system? More may use backwards compatibility that you realize.

I plan on getting a PS3, and afterwords my wallet will be too empty to buy any games(assuming $69.99 or higher). I'll be plenty happy playing my great PS2 titles with wireless controlers!(wireless controlers that acually work good)

"One last point. How do you know how many people play older games on the new systems? Is there a hidden chip on the PS2 or Xbox 360 that beams info to you about what they play on their system? "

In the case of the 360, uh, yeah. They can track what everyone is playing via Live.

"I think that companies should be mindful that people do not want to have "system clutter", and should follow Playstation's lead in having almost 100% backwards compatibility from the start."

The system clutter issue is a good point. Is does become hard to keep everything hooked up at one time as more and more systems come out.

However, while PS2 is almost fully backwards compatible with PS1, there are a few games that do not work here and there. They may only be a handful, but for someone buying a PS2 and getting PS1 games for the first time, this could be disapointing. PS3 may be more of the same. Plus, see my abiove response (#1) about the disc read erros. I honestly believe that making one system read too many kinds of discs is a bad thing and is not good for the system lasting and functioning properly in the long run.

As I said before, Ideally backwards compatibility is good from a conceptual standpoint, and even Playstation hasn't gotten quite as right as some people seem to think.




"One last point. How do you know how many people play older games on the new systems? Is there a hidden chip on the PS2 or Xbox 360 that beams info to you about what they play on their system? More may use backwards compatibility that you realize."

In the case of PS2, they probably have no idea. But for Xbox 360, the only old games that are compatible with the system right out of the box are the Halo ones. So, in order to get the emulator upgrades, you have to download them (either directly to the Xbox 360, or onto your computer and burn a disc to then upload to the 360). They are probably able to track how many people are actually downloading this stuff, and maybe they've noticed that there hasn't been enough interest to warrent the time, energy, and money being spent to continue making further updates. It sucks, and I do kind of wish they would continue on with it, but I understand at the same time.

@Dynamo of Eternia - '...but as of yet I am yet to see it properly executed.' - Hmmm, not to quibble, but the Megadrive/Genesis did it properly! Remember the adapter that people rushed out to buy? Well, all that actually did was switch two of the contact channels (much like an IDE cable), ordering the Megadrive to initiate the small circuit board THAT WAS ALREADY INSIDE, and was actually a miniaturised MasterSystem! Naughty Sega! Much like the original XBox and it's DVD system, the hardware was in place, but the consumer was charged a premium to access it! I can't think of a better MasterSystem emulator, though! ;D

Anyway, my tuppence - MS should keep the functuality. It was promised, so the consumer expects them to make good on their promise. I haven't sold my XBox, and I game with both platforms at the moment on my 360. It just so happens that my GF is VERY picky when it comes to games, and at the moment all I can convince her to play is Halo 1/2 and the 360 title Advanced Warfighter. The point is, my XBox laser has already packed in once, and I don't want to have to bring it down from upstairs everytime she wants to play a game (she doesn't like playing on the projector!).

Anyway, maybe not the best argument, but still...

Over promised and under delivered I say, too.

I do have an older Xbox too. I want to play Xbox games with my Xbox 360. It would be convenient and fun to play with a new wireless controller. Basically what Matt Paprocki is saying is that making games compatible might cost Microsot some money. But, well I am selfish and I just want compatible games. And didn't I mention some huge games that are not compatible?

Post Scriptum (I don't want to use the abbreviation of it ;) ) Mortal Combat should of course be Mortal Kombat and Fahrenheit is known as Indigo Prophecy in the USA.

Yea we got the watered down version with Indigo Prophecy. How lame was that. We should have got Fahrenheit.

Microsoft has done very well with the BC issue. With that first major BC update they fixed Forza, one of my favorite Xbox games. It can now be played without problems on the 360. They also worked on the bugs in the Splinter Cell games. They are doing a good job.

They just need to do a better job. Conker would be great to play on the 360, as would many others you listed Janman.

I hope that Microsoft and Peter Moore wake up and realize that it is a feature that their customers want.

There's a fine line between offering backwards compatibility and getting people to buy new games.

Too much backwards compatibility and people won't buy enough new Xbox360 games.

Bottom line is they've backtracked on what they said they WOULD do. That's effectively a broken promise to those that have already spent the money on the 360. Believe it or not, one of the reasons I bought the 360 was because I was led to believe I could (eventually) play all my xbox titles on it. Apparently, I was sold a bill of goods...because it's too hard. Why, then did you over-promise that eventually all (most, at least) titles WOULD work? Anything less than staying true to your word is UNDER-delivering! How in the world can it be spun any differently?

And this diversionary tactic that "there are a handful of PS1 games that don't work on the PS2" crap has got to stop!!! Come on! What does "a handful" of titles translate to in terms of percentages? 1%? 2%? 5%? Guess what? That means 95% of PS1 games work on the PS2!!!! THAT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY DURN GOOD!!! Where are we at in terms of the xbox title library's compatibility? 20% maybe? To say 95% compatiblity is stupid because it's not 100% is just asinine, and is simply a DIVERSION to draw us off point. That point is that Microsoft has reneged on a promise to those of use who have already plunked down our $400 to them. They told us it would do X and now it may only ever do 25% of X. Unacceptable.

How about we get a partial refund for the broken feature? Fat chance. How about all current owners get some points for Xbox Live Arcade game downloads as compensation, and all future marketing completely abandons any mention of "backward compatibility"? Fat chance.

"@Dynamo of Eternia - '...but as of yet I am yet to see it properly executed.' - Hmmm, not to quibble, but the Megadrive/Genesis did it properly! Remember the adapter that people rushed out to buy? Well, all that actually did was switch two of the contact channels (much like an IDE cable), ordering the Megadrive to initiate the small circuit board THAT WAS ALREADY INSIDE, and was actually a miniaturised MasterSystem! Naughty Sega! Much like the original XBox and it's DVD system, the hardware was in place, but the consumer was charged a premium to access it! I can't think of a better MasterSystem emulator, though! ;D"

That is certainly a valid point. However, it did require the purchase of an extra device to attach to the system to use the older games. Not that I consider that to be a completely bad thing, but I think that if Xbox 360 offered such a device to play the older Xbox games, there would be a lot of complaints from people over having to buy an extra component for that purpose. Granted, it would be nicer than no backwards compatibility at all, but people would still have a fit over it.


The DVD remote is kind of similar, but its not exactly the same thing (and, from what I understand, the main reason why they did things that way with the remote was because they has to pay a fee to use the DVD technology in their system, and since they were already taking such a loss per unit on the original XBox, they made up for that DVD fee by requiring the purchase of the remote to access it).

I do admit that the Genesis thing did work well though, and all in all the various Gameboy systems have been good with backwards compatibility. But I am yet to see a disc-based system do this as properly as it should.



"And this diversionary tactic that "there are a handful of PS1 games that don't work on the PS2" crap has got to stop!!! Come on! What does "a handful" of titles translate to in terms of percentages? 1%? 2%? 5%? Guess what? That means 95% of PS1 games work on the PS2!!!! THAT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY DURN GOOD!!! Where are we at in terms of the xbox title library's compatibility? 20% maybe? To say 95% compatiblity is stupid because it's not 100% is just asinine, and is simply a DIVERSION to draw us off point."

Well, first of all its not meant as a diversionary tactic. I was simply making a point. Is 95% a pretty good number? Yes, it is. However, if someone buys PS2 never having owned a PS1, and they decide to pick up a few PS1 games for it, and one of the few they happen to pick up is one that doesn't work, I'm sure that they'd be very upset. And I'm sure that if you were in that scenario, you'd complain as well.

My point also wasn't exclusive to how many games it was compatible with, but the ongoing disc read error problems that PS2s tend to have (this is common, plenty of info on the internet about it, just google PS2 disc read errors and you'll find plenty of info on this). And I firmly believe that a big part of why this happens so often is because they simply tried to make one system (or more specifically, one disc laser) do too much.

The only way that I could see backwards compatibility working 100% perfectly right out of the box would be to make a system (let's just use PS3 as an example, but with some theoretical reformatting) with multiple disc trays, and a different laser for each tray. For something like PS3, you'd essentially have one tray for PS3 games (and Blu-Ray movies could probably work in that same one), another tray for PS2 games (and maybe DVDs in that one as well), and another tray for PS1 games. That would give each disc type their own independent laser. Moreover, what you would essentially have is PS2 and PS1 built right into the PS3, with each respective older technology being associated with the proper disc tray and laser. This will prevent too much wear and tear and "gear shifting" for one laser, which I don't think is a good thing.



"Bottom line is they've backtracked on what they said they WOULD do. That's effectively a broken promise to those that have already spent the money on the 360."

I do agree with you here. The fact that they are going back on what they said they would do is kind of shady. And despite the comments that I have made, even I am somewhat disapointed by this. I would -prefer- to have Xbox 360 compatible with my older Xbox games. However, I can live with it if it doesn't happen. And, if not enough people are downloading the compatibility updates to warrant the continuation of making them, then Peter Moore at least has something of a point here.

I don't own an X-Box, and may not buy an X360, but there is a game on both systems that would entice me to buy the latter. "Dead Rising" is enough to make me consider buying the 360, but if "Panzer Dragoon Orta" were backwards compatible, it would sell it for me.

I own a PS2, and have quite a few PSX games that I still play on it. Kagero, Resident Evil 2, Wipeout XL, Broken Helix, Gran Turismo, and the Final Fantasy games all bring me back. Sega backs Panzer Dragoon Orta and could probably finance a translation, but I suppose this is hopeless since the game didn't sell well. Hell, I still own Panzer Dragoon Zwei and Panzer Dragoon Saga (along with the Saturn).

Who really needs all these systems under their TV? I'm someone whose decision would be made based on one game being backwards compatible.

i want my xbox to play on my xbox360 it is not right

It not about the Graphics or how shinny the box it came in is! there are no good racing games for the xbox 360 and if you have any sense of how good the xbox really was you would know that! Grid for instance the a.i is clumsy like bad xbox live Achievement only players! Moto Gp -Same Thing- the xbox never had any of these problems with racing games but non gamers only see the graphics not the gameplay and have as much skill as a monkey with a Banana! Gamers on the xbox 360 make me laugh just to call there selfs gamers but then again there are the odd few! And To say getting rid of your old xbox was the worst thing to do... Microsoft made the 360 to try to make people sway away from the xbox and most of us EXPECTED our games to work with the 360! so to all the morons who think everythings about the graphics in gaming your not gamers your non skilled and only after Achievements!