it's not really a christian issue...

Look im not trying to go against what you have to say lady, but all i do have to say is this. I was bought over here by my parents when i was 7 months old illegally, i grew up speaking english and only enlgish. I was educated in America and taught American history thinking it was the history of where i am from. I got a diploma from a credited american high school, I take care of a CAUCASIAN women, whom if I had the proper documentation, I would marry in a heartbeat. I pay for my college education, yet again with no goverment asst. with money that I work for. I have son by this women who i love very much and i support with all my heart. Long story short, from what i and many others who know my story say, i am not a bad person, and rightfully deserve to be american. But because of convervative bigots such as yourself, i am stuck in a rut and cannot do anything for myself, but nonetheless, im sure i make more money than you do and ever will and i will be a happier person than you will ever get to be.

Wow, I had never even considered that anyone might think Christianity was an issue here. Is there a particular audience this article was aimed at?

Dave

Doesnt matter, If you are in college and have been here since you were 7-months old, you obviously havent tried very hard to go straight and legitimize yourself. You are also not very knowledgable of the situation it is the President and his conservatives who are pushing for the bull#$%$ amnesty program by calling it a guest worker program. Whats next amnesty for any crime committed for economic reasons?

Riight...why don't you twist this some more so you make the religion theme more substantial. First they tried making it an issue of economics, then patriotism, then fairness, then security, then even race(unknowingly)...now you try religion. Pathetic.

fyi 9/11 was committed by people who were here LEGALLY on valid visas...not illegal immigrants.

and your logic is flawed..so they didn't pay taxes...u know why?, its because they don't have a ssn. So, the bill fixes this...makes them eligible for a ssn, makes them pay back taxes. You want someone to plant a tree, at least give them the tools to do so. Its sinister and truly NOT Christian when you demonize someone for that.

Everyone loves to blame everything, every problem the US is facing on the illegal immigrants. Go do a search...every book has been thrown at them. Weird thing is 90% of them are based on conjecture, opinion, who-said-what, biased and prejudiced material. You want something Christian?...Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!

Nothing is funnier but at the same time more insulting than seeing ignorant, condescending atheists and other assorted miscreant, christophobes lecturing to everyone within earshot on the tenets of Christianity........... spouting off the one or two trite bliblical passgages that they know only because they have made their way into pop culture.


What most rabid abortion supporting, ACLU loving, secularist, Democrat voting popmpous assholes know about Christianity amounts to a steaming pile of dung.

Who cares if it is "Christian" or not? Oh that, Bible Thumpers who pathetically live their life based on a book do.

Is this how low crazy Christians have sunk? And to think, we once thought the worst they could do was give seminars teaching people about all world religions (with a hidden agenda to show these people that all are "wrong" except Christianity)

i am confused...pls do not make this a religious issue because it is not. Please do not use the bible verses in vain to 'support' your cause. All we need(don't need) is more folks like you clouding the issue and trying to erect more propaganda. Shame on you for dragging religion into this.

Supporting Illegal Immigration Is NOT Christian

You got that right, Jesus would not reach out to the impoverished.

It's much more Christian to send them all back to a corrupt nation filled with poverty and let them fend for themselves.

--

end sarcasm

You lost me in the first paragraph. many illegal immigrants pay taxes, learn English and "contribute to the United States as a whole."

Arch Conservative said,

"...Christianity amounts to a steaming pile of dung."

I especially love how you compare apples to oranges and then conclude they are identical. If by that you mean they're fruits, congratulations.

It's much more Christian to send them all back to a corrupt nation filled with poverty and let them fend for themselves.

Yeah, and thereby insure that the nation they are invading by the tens of millions, our nation, will be transformed into the same kind of a shithole they came from - resulting in NO nation left on the face of the earth worth living in.

so Richard, you're saying Christianity is about making sure our nation isn't a shithole. Okay.

Supporting Illegal Immigration Is NOT Christian

You got that right, Jesus would not reach out to the impoverished.

It's much more Christian to send them all back to a corrupt nation filled with poverty and let them fend for themselves.

--

end sarcasm




Yeah the Christian thing to do would be to let the m come intot he country, take advantage of our society and our native citizens in every possible way and then laugh about it right anonymous?

Yeah the Christian thing to do would be to let the m come intot he country, take advantage of our society and our native citizens in every possible way and then laugh about it right anonymous?

No. Why is that the only other option you propose?

Being a chrisitan does not mean you can't be compassionate without allowing hordes of people to screw you over.

Oh it means this when you're a christophobe secualrist liberal piece of shit pretending to know something about what christianity really means in a patently pathetic attempt to use christianity against it's practicioners to make your own inane point. Ie anonymous, ty etc....

in a patently pathetic attempt to use christianity against it's practicioners

Arch Conservative, (the same one who equates Christianity with a steaming pile of dung), it wasn't anonymous who brought Christianity into the mix. And I'm not a secularist liberal.

Does anyone here possess reading comprhension skills higher than those of a 2nd grader?

Go back and read what I wronte dumbass. Read it S---L---O---W---L---Y so that you understand it.


What I said ws that what you secularists morons know about Chrisitnaity amounts to a pile of dung..


Got it?


I didn't say christianity is a pile of dung...



nice to see your ged came in handy anonymous

anonymous, you say that it is un-Christian "to send them all back to a corrupt nation filled with poverty and let them fend for themselves."

You also say, sarcastically, that "Jesus would not reach out to the impoverished" - impying that you think it would be Christian to reach out to the impoverished.

So just how far out do you want to reach? Would you agree that there are at least four billion people in this world who are more impoverished than those Mexicans who are in America illegally?

Tell us, please, why you think it would be a good idea to "reach out", and pro-actively arrange to bring all of these "impoverished people" into the United States.

Can I make a suggestion to the editors?

Can you please instate a reading comprehension test to join BC so that the barely literates like anonymous and Jim Wynne are weeded out from the get-go?

It should be obvious that the intended audience here is Christian.

However, whether you are Christian or not, you should still be concerned.

This became a Christian issue when the Presbyterian Church started helping illegals get legal IDs, as well as when the Catholic church came out in favor of giving full amnesty to illegals.

As for 9/11, you need to go back and research that one. Although these people entered the country legally, when they committed the 9/11 atrocity, they were illegal. They were on expired visas. This made them illegal.

I said LEGAL immigrants pay taxes. Illegal immigrants do not.

The bottom line is that those of you who disagreed with me offered absolutely no evidence to prove that I was wrong.

You can throw all of the emotion at this that you want. It won't change the facts.

The bottom line is this: for Christians to support lawbreakers is wrong. Period. There are Christians who are doing exactly that, and they are part of the problem in this country.

Only 11 percent of Christians read their bible on a daily basis. I'm one of them. I won't apologize for criticizing people who want to help criminals continue this criminal behavior because they are ignorant of what the Bible says. There's plenty of other scriptures I could have cited.

Jesus never shrunk from telling people when they were in sin. For nonbelievers to break the law only makes them criminals. For Christians to ignore the law not only makes us criminals, it makes us sinners.

On Memorial Day, make sure that you tell every veteran, or at least the ones who are still here, that you don't think they deserve to be treated for their service connected disabilities because you think that money is better spent on criminals. I'm sure they will thank you.

I'm not just a Christian. I'm also a military veteran and a woman. I am sick to death of those of you who want to sell us out because it's more politically correct than doing the right thing.

You are free to believe whatever you want, think whatever you want, and say whatever you want. Our constitution gives you that right, but remember, it is because of me, and those like me who have served, who have preserved that right to free speech that you have.

Tell us, please, why you think it would be a good idea to "reach out", and pro-actively arrange to bring all of these "impoverished people" into the United States.

I do not think it would be a good idea to bring all these people into the U.S. I never said that. The only options your side proposes is to send them back and let them fend for themselves or to let them take advantage.

They come here for jobs. Create the jobs there. Then they will go back on their own.

Arch Conservative: I didn't say christianity is a pile of dung...

How am I to know, you didn't dispute it when it was attributed to you. And you are calling me someone who is using Christianity as a political tool. Clearly that is the whole premise of this article.

for Christians to support lawbreakers is wrong. Period.

So hypothetically if Christianity is outlawed, then the Christian must deny the faith? You advocate the State above all.

oh bing, don't go there...

this isn't a christian issue. it has nothing to do with christianity. i don't think that anyone should really be speaking for christianity as a whole anyway. who are you? the pope?

i would hope that the pope would say offering charity to the poor is a christian thing to do. but at this point, because of the size of the problem, this has become a purely political problem, and is not going to be solved by charity.

charity is the christian thing to do. politics is not. so, no, it's not christian to support illegal immigration. it's not christian to actively try to stop illegal immigration either. christianity does not need to get involved at all.

using the bible to... illegal immigration... what does the bible... you know, this is so totally a non-issue.

it's like saying that using superglue is not christian. has absolutely nothing to do with it. whatever.

How were you to know Anonumous?

Well maybe it might be a good idea if you actually read someone else's post before responding directly to them?

Ever think of that?

I do not think it would be a good idea to bring all these people into the U.S.

Why not? Are these impoverished less worthy of being "reached out to" than impoverished Mexicans? How can you be so discriminatory and heartless?

If I were advocating the state above all, I would have supported the bill in Congress.

I don't believe that you can separate your belief system from who you are.

Dispute the facts, Anonymous. Your emotional arguments are weak, and the fact that you don't post your name tells me you are afraid.

I expected criticism from this. There will always be those who criticize without offering any real arguments.

What I was hoping for here was a spirited debate over this issue.

"Jesus never shrunk from telling people when they were in sin."

that, if he really did exist as such, was his right. it's not yours.

you go about condemning your fellow christians for following christian teachings of reaching out to your fellow man. if nothing else, their hearts are in the right place. maybe they aren't being good americans, you could say that, but you can't say they aren't being good christians.

you, on the other hand, are judging people on a religious level for political reasons. that's crazy. you do not represent anything that is good about christianity (at least in this case).

i'm not gonna say you're a bad person, because i don't know you, and because people are entitled to their opinion; but, even as someone who doesn't know shit about christianity, i understand it enough to know that you are perverting what goodness it has left.

How were you to know Anonumous? Well maybe it might be a good idea if you actually read someone else's post before responding directly to them? Ever think of that?

In comment 11, it was attributed to you. You did not deny it until I brought it up. Yes, I read. Do you?

the fact that you don't post your name tells me you are afraid.

Damn straight. The christians here are xenophobic, hostile and downright threatening. Are you new here?

yeah, she just got back from her conference with jesus, where he told her what he would do about them fuckin mexicans. he conferred with her. and told her that other christians have no fuckin clue.

Why not? Are these impoverished less worthy of being "reached out to" than impoverished Mexicans? How can you be so discriminatory and heartless?

I was referring to the illegals already here. I do not promote amnesty. I gave you my solution, it is a good partial solution to the whole problem. Certainly better than anything advocated under the name of your Lord here and certainly more in line with His principles.

They come here for jobs. Create the jobs there. Then they will go back on their own.

That will never happen. The only reason America is still comparatively properous (though decliningly so) is because of the incredible amount of wealth that was brough into existence during a couple of hundred year period that ended nearly a century ago - our golden age of unfettered, untaxed, unregulated laissez-faire capitalism.

The ever accelerating destruction of our standard of living is because of how we have increasingly turned to welfare statism (which includes both individual and corporate "welfare"). And it is this corrupt system after which Mexico would pattern any "reformation" of its own version of corruption - thereby rendering that country impotent to generate the levels of properity necessary to raise its own people's standard of living to the point where they would stop eyeing America with envy.

You are misinformed. Dictionary.com says a xenophobe is: A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

Flame Warriors describes it this way:

Xenophobe is usually a long-term discussion forum participant and he thinks of the forum as his private compound. Xenophobe regards new forum arrivals as mentally deficient and perhaps even having criminal tendencies, and they are invariably approached with suspicion and condescension. Xenophobe will mount a furious attack if a Newbie has the temerity to make critical observations about the forum's social dynamics, or questions its prevailing opinions.

redwing.hutman.net

Again, dispute the facts of what I am saying. Explain to me why my taxes should go to support illegals when we have people here who are suffering and need help.

You've never addressed this. Unfortunately, you have resorted to a typical liberal tactic: name calling.

It's always easier than dealing with the facts.

Please refrain from using vulgar language here. It's unbecoming. It also demonstrates that you are the one who is really hostile.

anonymous, why do you refuse to answer my question? Let me give you another chance:

Why do you not want to "reach out" to the truly impoverished billions around the world, and bring them all to America so they don't have to be left in their "corrupt nations filled with poverty" to "fend for themselves." Are they less worthy

Damn straight. The christians here are xenophobic, hostile and downright threatening. Are you new here?


This idiot shows his true colors. I don't see any Chrisitians threatening him or anyone else on this sight.


He's just an ignorant run of the mill Christophobe.

I'm struggling to find a Christian application, one way or other, to the issue of immigration. It's a public policy matter. If by consensus America wants to shut down its borders and jail every illegal immigrant, fine (that would be a little difficult to pull off and would call into question our tacit approval of illegal immigration, but I won't argue that point). If by consensus we want to open the borders completely, that's fine too. I don't see anything in my reading of the Bible that suggests borders are a theological concern.

Some of the issues you address are valid--security and the burden on our welfare system--but none are biblical.

If you consider that the apostles crossed into many lands, sometimes unwelcome, I think you will find that they did not violate a biblical principle.

Dictionary.com says a xenophobe is: A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

That describes the Christians here. I'm not new here.

anonymous, why do you refuse to answer my question?

I answered your question Richard. But you hear only what you want to hear. I do not support amnesty for the illegals here, I do not support bringing more here, I do not support being taken advantage of. Is that simple enough for you to understand? I support a solution that you cannot see.

Go ahead and condemn the tired and poor huddled masses in the name of your Lord, that's the only answer you want to hear.

--

They come here for jobs. Create the jobs there. Then they will go back on their own.

That will never happen.

You can put a McDonalds on a Saudi Arabian street corner, or sell Levis jeans and rap music in Turkey but you cannot create a job in Mexico.

Okay, condemn away in the name of your Lord. Nothing else will suffice.

"When we support illegal immigrants, we are aiding and abetting criminals, which is a crime."

By this you condemn the whole church...and since they are committing a crime, they are criminals. The pastors, fathers, priests, ...including the Pope. How rightwing selfrighteous can you be?

As a Catholic, I've seen religion injected into the immigration issue on the opposite side. Many hispanic-oriented charities lean politically liberal, and consider immigration an issue of social justice. There's no doubt that some employers take advantage of their power over the immigrant worker (legal or illegal). While I don't see immigration as a religious matter, human rights are.

I oppose illegal immigration, and favor restrictions on legal immigration. I like the idea of this article, showing that a Christian can favor tight immigration laws. But Jinger seems to turn Christianity into a belief in taking care of our own. That goes too far. Remember the good Samaritan: our aid and our love must go to all men.

I spent 18 months in the Catholic church. I rejected Catholicism.

I'm not Catholic. I am, however, a Christian. I have read the Bible, cover to cover, and I've read it more than one time.

How many of you have read the Bible, or are you just lazy skeptics?

The Pope has no authority to me or over me. However, he claims to be a Christian. That makes him fair game.

Can you show me in the Bible where it says it is OK to break the law?

The Bible says not to steal. It also says not to covet. Isn't that what these people are doing when they take welfare benefits, Medicaid, medical care, and and all of the other government benefits they get? They didn't work for it. They didn't pay for it, yet we are supposed to just hand them what we have worked for?

Aren't the vast majority of Mexicans, which is the vast majority of illegal immigrants, Catholic? Aren't Catholics supposed to be Christian? If this is true, do Catholics only follow the Bible when it's convenient?

If you were really Christian...you would forgive them for their illegal acts...show a little compassion towards their plight...and pray to God someone would help you in a similar circumstance.

"How many of you have read the Bible, or are you just lazy skeptics?"

I'm a skeptic, and not lazy. I've read the bible many times, and will read it again. It's freely available everywhere, and the King James version is excellent literature, thanks to Alexander Pope and others. One time, stranded with my wife in a hotel in a town with no other source of amusement, except to play The Beast With Two Backs (again), I used the room bible to read some psalms and The Song Of Solomon to her. She was amazed at the force and beauty of the language! Though a person of literature, her lifelong catholicism had ensured her isolation from and harshness toward, the bible.

I love the literary superlatives of the bible, but I don't believe it is gods word, or anything other than familiar stories.

Isn't that what these people are doing when they take welfare benefits, Medicaid, medical care, and and all of the other government benefits they get? They didn't work for it. They didn't pay for it, yet we are supposed to just hand them what we have worked for?

An illegal does not get welfare. Should an illegal abuse the system and get welfare (which is different than free medical care), then they are breaking another law and it should be stopped. Medical care should NOT be contingent upon citizenship or ability to pay. THAT is hardcore anti-Christian.

Can you show me in the Bible where it says it is OK to break the law?

I don't think anybody here is saying it's okay to break the law. However, taking the role of Judgement upon yourself and determining who gets medical treatment or not has got to be a far bigger sin.

If this is true, do Catholics only follow the Bible when it's convenient?

I don't know about that, but I can tell you that the majority of American citizens who profess to be Christian pick and choose the parts of the Bible they wish to adhere to.

They didn't pay for it, yet we are supposed to just hand them what we have worked for?

What do you think the illegal immigrants do, sit around on their asses and collect checks? The illegal immigrants work too. They may not pay taxes, but they contribute significantly to our economy and they make up a valuable segment of our workforce.

As to the danger to American jobs and well-being, I suggest you read this: an open letter on immigration drafted by a group of economists. It may not change your mind, but it's important to look at the situation from a variety of viewpoints before you make a judgment. I understand much of your arguments, but I think under scrutiny they fall apart. They seem to be mostly emotional arguments, but when faced with reality, they don't always make as much sense as we'd like to think.

To help these people at the expense of law abiding Americans who truly need it IS NOT COMPASSION.

This has nothing to do with forgiveness. Forgiveness is about giving up the right to take revenge for being wronged. Revenge belongs to God, not to me.

This is about forcing these people to observe the laws of this country and to respect the sovereignty of the United States.

To allow these people to violate the law of this country and do nothing about it, not only is a crime against the United States, but it also violates what the Bible says about respecting those in authority, as well as the government.

This violates Romans 13, and as a Christian, I cannot do that.

You must not be a Christian, and I don't believe you have ever read the Bible. If you had, you wouldn't have made such a ridiculous statement.

This is about forcing these people

Now that's the type of Christianity we know and love here.

Bryan,

The problem with this letter on immigration is that it has a major flaw: it doesn't separate illegal immigration from legal immigration.

I stated in my article that I have nothing against legal immigration, or did you miss that part?

This letter also didn't dispute any of the statistics I quoted on medicine, education, or anything else.

Nice try, but it's weak.

In 1982 Perdue chicken paid a meat cutter $19 dollars an hour. Now they hire illegals and pay only $9. Who's kidding who, illegal immigration drives down wages and increases taxes. Leprosy cases last year rose to 9,000, drug resistant TB on the rise, Hepititis A, B, and C on the rise, Chagas disease. The increase of 66 million people over the next 20 years will bankrupt SS, Medicade and Medicare. Higher taxes of course the strapped Middle class will have to bear the brunt of paying. Overcrowded schools, strain on our natural resources, 25 percent of our prisons are filled with illegal immigrants, drop out rates of illegals are also high. Out of wedlock births, Low skilled, uneducated people is not what I call a step in the right direction. I would rather Have 5 million legal immigrants from all over the world who are highly skilled, healthy, obey the law, learn English beforehand, and can show they will not be a burden to our society by signing up for social services when they enter the country. Not to mention respecting our Flag, and the people in the country they have just joined.

I hate it when people play the race card. This is an economic issue at it's root core. I have even heard that when some Mexican's go back to Mexico city they are faced with the same resentment of taking jobs from the ones that stayed. It goes both ways all over the world. It's an economic job war.

NUKE THE UNBORN GAY OCTOPUSSEY'S.

SR I love it when you get all intellectual

ME TOO.

anonymous: I answered your question Richard. But you hear only what you want to hear. I do not support amnesty for the illegals here, I do not support bringing more here, I do not support being taken advantage of. Is that simple enough for you to understand? I support a solution that you cannot see.

Still you refuse to answer my question. I asked you:

WHY do you not want to "reach out" to the truly impoverished billions around the world, and bring them all to America so they don't have to be left in their "corrupt nations filled with poverty" to "fend for themselves."

(the quotes are your own words)

Now pay real close attention. The first word in my question is not "Whether". It is "Why"

So don't just keep repeating THAT you're not in favor of doing this. Answer WHY you are not in favor of doing this.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

This is the last chance you're going to get. If you continue evading and dodging, then I shall explain to everyone why it is that you are afraid to give a straight answer.

Medical care should NOT be contingent upon citizenship or ability to pay. THAT is hardcore anti-Christian.

Free medical care for illegals has already put countless hospitals OUT OF BUSINESS in California and Arizona. Now American citizens are having to choose to forgo medical care, because they cannot afford to pay the sky high prices hospitals have to charge to make up for having to give so much free medical care to illegal aliens.

How "Christian" is it of these illegal aliens to be causing American citizens to have to go without needed hospital care, so they can have it instead?

then I shall explain to everyone why it is that you are afraid to give a straight answer.

You know my heart? Not likely. I am curious as to what you think my stance is.

The first word in my question is not "Whether". It is "Why"

Because it doesn't solve the problem. If you put 5 billion people on this continent, you won't fix their situation. I am not in favor of that, of open borders or of amnesty for the illegals here. I have answered your question three times now, but you see only what you want to see.

How "Christian" is it of these illegal aliens to be causing American citizens to have to go without needed hospital care, so they can have it instead?

It's not Christian of them at all. What does that have to do with YOU living by your Christian ideals? Absolutely nothing.

Now they hire illegals and pay only $9.

And why is nobody promoting the remedy of targeting the employers? Would people come here for jobs if nobody hired them because the fines were too great?

Of course, it's much easier and apparently more Christian to target the hungry worker rather than the rich employer.

If you put 5 billion people on this continent, you won't fix their situation.

Thank you. You finally answered my question. Even people who think 100 million new Mexicans can be allowed in without disastrous consequences over the next 50 years, are not so completely out of touch with reality that they cannot appreciate that 5 billions could not possibly be accomodated.

you won't fix their situation.

How very revealing. The only reason you're against such insanity is because it wouldn't benefit THEM. Nevermind the destruction it would wreak on AMERICAN citizens, about whom you obviously don't give a flying fuck.

So it all really boils down to a question of what population one thinks is appropriate for this nation. I for one think we are ALREADY about a hundred billion too many.

When Jesus was handed a coin with Ceasar's head on it, he said to "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, and render unto God what is God's." Jesus was telling us that we had to respect the authority of government officials, as well as render unto the government what belongs to the government.

Actually, it's merely your opinion as to what he was telling us. You weren't there, you can't know what he meant. If all he was telling you was to respect the authority of the government, then why say render unto God what is God's?

What belongs to the government that does NOT belong to God, as your interpretation clearly implies?

Render unto the government what BELONGS to the government? And what would that be? What belongs to the government? The government is of the people and for the people. So who has true ownership? The people or the government? Does the coin belong to the government? Is the coin Caesar's? If so, then he's saying we should not give it to the Church because it doesn't belong there. It goes to Caesar.

My point being, your whole philosophy on how to handle this is simple based on an opinion, an interpretation and not fact.

Most people I know of, define 'render unto Caesar what is Caesars and render unto God what is Gods as a command to keep religion out of politics.

A very different interpretation than buttkissing the State.

Even people who think 100 million new Mexicans can be allowed in without disastrous consequences

If you are referring to me, you are off base as usual, because that is not my sentiment.

The only reason you're against such insanity

Who died and made you Jesus? You're wrong, you know.

Is this anonymous idiot still talking?

In reference to #6 - who would know more about steaming piles of dung than you, Arch? ;-)

Anonymous,

You still haven't provided any information, statistics, or anything of value to dispute my position.

Actually, I did back up my position. You can scroll up to see it. Read Romans Chapter 13. It's very clear.

However, you don't seem to be here to contribute anything of any real value anyway. Your posts lack credibility because you won't even reveal who you are. You seem to be here to do nothing more than stir up trouble.

When I wrote my article, I knew I would face criticism from people like you. No big deal. Richard and CK provided some excellent posts to this thread and at least attempted to stimulate discussion, which is what I wanted.

One of the things that I should have pointed out here is that when the when the House passed its version of the bill in December 2005, they made it a felony to aid and abet illegal immigrants, which, by the way, was already a crime.

My problem with non Christians is that they want to hold Christians to a higher standard than anyone else. We are no less, or no more, human, and infallible than anyone else.

The purpose of my article was to hold accountable Christians who aid and abet these illegal immigrants. Not only are illegal immigrants so too are Christians who help them.

So we've come full circle. Now, provide us with a valid, coherent, intelligible, spirited, and intellectual argument for your stance, whatever that is. Dispute what I've said.

As you have demonstrated, it takes zero intellect to nitpick.

All of the terrorists on 9/11 were illegal immigrants even though many immigrated here legally.

Absolutely incorrect. EVERY 9/11 hijacker entered legally. Of those, only ONE hijacker's visa had expired on 9/11, but (1) it was pending renewal, and (2) he wasn't a pilot, just muscle. If he had been escorted to the border when his visa expired, it would have been great, but it would have done nothing at all to stop 9/11 from happening.

If you want to use national security as an aspect of the illegal immigration issue, that's perfectly legit. But you should have your facts straight. Using bad information about the 9/11 hijackers actually damages your argument.

jj-i pity anyone who has to deal with you. if you follow all of the rules laid down in the bible, and, as you seem to here, judge anyone who does not follow them as well, you must hate everybody, every "god damned" soul on this earth.

you say you follow the bible. why do you ignore the good parts, about compassion and pity and "judge not?" what's wrong with those parts? why does that not figure into your argument? what the hell does the bible say about americans? immigration? NOTHING. there is no direct reference to this problem.

religion is a personal thing. you aren't going to save or change the world with it. if you are going to let your religion guide you, let it guide you on a personal basis, within yourself and outwards toward individuals, not whole peoples.

like someone else said, your sin, your transgression is far worse (how dare you judge 12 million people?) than anything the average illegal immigrant does. you're just a liar and a bigot, wrapping yourself up in your self-rightous bullshit and arrogance.

say what you will about illegal immigration, but don't couch it in these terms. you claim to be a christian, but your words make you sound like the devil. you make a mockery of your supposed faith.

You seem to have done very little research on this recent blog. First off, illegal immigrants most certainly do pay taxes, thanks to many programs from the IRS, and since illegal immigrants can't own their own homes, the rent that goes to their landlord gets taxed. It's a little thing we like to call property taxes. Not to mention, illegal immigrants are less of a burden on our economy than many people born and raised in the United States. They use virtually no social programs, since they're afraid of being deported, and yet again, pay taxes. I'm so sick of this "They're a burden on our economy" argument.

[Edited]

The fact is that they are a drain on our economy. Between healthcare, non-payment of taxes, utilization of services and crime they cost this nation farmore than they give to it.

[Edited]

So spin it how you want but the facts just aren't on the side of your [Edited] argument.

go take a crap, bing.

Casey, can I be a "Pople" too? Can you post a brochure?

Wow Arch. You seem angry! Why? Because you, yourself, don't have any facts? You're so obsessed with your little idea that illegal immigrants are bad, gay marriage is bad, and other conservative "ideals" that facts just won't get in your way, huh?
signonsandiego.com
csmonitor.com
latimes.com

Take a look at those. I look forward to your "liberal media" argument.

[Whilst I look forward to you learning how to make urls active, Casey. Thank you. Comments Editor]

Jet, I'm really not sure where the "Pople" thing comes from. I assumed you were childishly referring to a typo, but since I never typed the word "Pople", I think you're just being moronic.

Care to elaborate?

nctimes.com

cis.org

usgov.info

There you go casey)

[Archie, go learn how to make links active before posting any more. Thanks. Comments Editor]

No comment on my articles?

That's funny!

You're articles basically say that there are some illegals paying taxes but they do not address the larger picture which is total costs versus total benefits of illegals. Mine do.

Happy reading.

Jinger, is your comment #42 a reply to my comment #41? I'm afraid you missed my point: that I agree with you. I'm not defending the pro-immigration sentiments among some Christians. I mentioned them in response to earlier commenters who had never heard of a religious/immigration connection.

I also agree with your reading of Mt 22, that rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's means compliance with the laws of the state (although I might add that we are under no obligation to comply with any immoral laws). (I'm sure that caveat is going to freak out some non-Christians on this site, so let me mention Selma, Alabama and hope they understand me.)

Aside from the requirement to follow law, I don't get your tie-in between immigration and Christianity. But it's unnecessary. It doesn't change the argument if illegals drain the economy, or if they brighten our days with colorful flower arrangements. As long as illegal immigration is illegal, that's enough to justify opposing it.

We should probably avoid debating Catholicism under this topic. Happy Memorial Day, and thanks for your service.

Conservatives are seen as Christians and Bush ran on being a "Compassionate Conservative" from the advice and book from a Jewish author. So I understand who you are addressing in this essay. I think it is excellent whether or not there is the Christian angle to it. That does not strengthen nor weaken your argument.

I see the illegals and the anchor babies everyday filling up our schools. It was the will of the people that busing not be forced on black and white children. They were outvoted. It is now historical fact that this desegregating of schools led to massive white flight and the ruination of the city of Dallas, just to name one city that was destroyed by something that did not last long.

Schools are not only resegregated but now black and white kids are telling me all the time that their parents are leaving the city because it is too dangerous. Even blacks are leaving the city and moving to newly established black middle class suburbs. People are advocating that blacks segregate themselves into their own schools. Why? Because their interest has been subsumed with the crowding out by illegal alien children.

The overwhelming language needs, socialization, content remediation is just as great or greater than those of poor black chidren. The needs of the illegals will soon smother and extinguish the needs of black children. All made possible by the greed of those parents who have invaded, literally invaded our cities.

It is beyond upsetting it is downright evil. I see not only the greed behind this move but I also see the practical side. Not only are they putting an extreme burden on the health care with their diseases but they have a higher rate of idiocy, mental and physical retardation than other groups. The percentage of retardation in their children is something that no one figures into the cost. Do you have any idea how much more they are getting for having a retarded child?

I am one who has no permanent job, can't get one, despite being a certified teacher, I have NO health insurance, and have to take whatever jobs I can to pay my bills. I am well educated and decided to become a writer because I can't get a real job.

People wake up!

Heloise

I am one who has no permanent job, can't get one, despite being a certified teacher

Your comments about retardation being a racial thing makes you unfit to be a teacher.

My wifes school is 90% hispanic, and it's generally acknowledged that 90% of those are illegals. The medical burden is astonishingly high, as is domestic violence, child abuse, murder, and gang activity (she's seen many promising children slide into gang activity). Problem families are no longer an exception that can be handled as special cases. Problem families are common, it is normal families that are exceptional.

Hi, pls consider the fact that thousands and thousands of people from all over the world dream of coming to America. It is because this country. It is because, this country is such a country, and this country cannot stand in the way of a person who intends to come here. "Thats love and thats America"

Mathew

Gotta love those illegals and how much they contribute huh Casey.

That's not what AMerica is Matthew. people want to come here because thier own nations are either third world shitholes rife with poverty and corruption or socialist shitholes rife with unemployment and pacifist pussies

Archie, before you get too gung-ho about the USA, please try to remember there ARE actually other places to be that are just as good or, let me whisper it, even better!

Perhaps your country attracts people from "third world shitholes rife with poverty and corruption or socialist shitholes rife with unemployment and pacifist pussies" as you, with your usual charm, put it because they'd feel right at home there?

I'd rather chop off large parts of my body off than live in such a rude, dangerous, unfriendly and unintelligent place as your America and I hope you never get a visa to enter Europe!

I can post the URLs with the medical research. I am talking about research that shows that eating large amounts of corn products (some tainted, some of it genetically engineered), they even have the amount of corn that Mexican women eat per month, is ACTUALLY causing higher rates of mental retardation among MEXICANS. NOW EAT THAT! #78.

I am not only certified and qualified in two areas, but the system wants people who are unbelievably low skilled. Since I have two real degrees, and not the bullshit degree in teaching, I am overqualified to teach in public school.

Most teachers do NOT have degrees in the content area they teach. That's why I don't have a job. I am overqualified and not a socialist ass kisser like yourself.

Heloise

Archie, before you get too gung-ho about the USA, please try to remember there ARE actually other places to be that are just as good

I think it was David Sedaris who said, "Surprising as it is to most Americans, people in other countries don't chant, 'We're number two!'"

I am overqualified to teach in public school.

Then stop teaching in public school.

We know that hospitals in LA are closing due to the burden of illegal immigration but now there is documentation of schools with 100% Mexican population having to close. Why? Because what you may not know is that what schools get from the feds in terms of dollars is linked to the rate of attendance. In other words when the attendance gets so low, as in dropouts and no shows, then it effects the budget of that particular school.

And hell, if those illegals want to hang out, eat corn, put on makeup ad nauseum, fuck, have more illegal babies, act like packaged commerically pushed "black culture" as espoused by BET (now white owned), then what is a school to do to attract people who don't want to be there?

Fact: The dropout rate and poor attendance rate among illegals and Mexicans is THE highest among any group, including poor black children. If you want to dispute that then show me where you have taught in those types of schools and read the facts and figures on it.

Fact: They have high rates of mental and physical retardation.

Fact: The law that states that a child born on American soil makes the child automatically a US citizen is NOT a fact. It was formulated so that children of former BLACK slaves would become citizens of this country when born here.

Fact: That law was NEVER meant to grant automatic citizenship to the anchor babies of illegal alien females who jump the border invaded one of the local hospitals and dropped their baby bombs on stupid Californians.

Fact: Banks like Wells Fargo are aiding and assisting illegal aliens to get mortgages and open bank accounts both here and in MEXICO.

Fact: You must get and apply for a birth certificate regardless to the legal status of the parents. What about people who are American and have a baby out of the country? They too have to show papers.

It is not racist to point out the weakness in any group. Remember the good old days when it was just blacks and whites hating each other and fighting for civil rights in the cities?

Heloise

PS: I am not only a proud black American but also a woman. I have been accused of being a white male (that was my last life). And yes, I have lots of LEGAL immigrant friends, and naturalized citizens (mostly from India).

My family is part Latino (Cuban). But we are NO part Mexican, but also part American Indian. So that makes us natives...hehehehe

I am overqualified to teach in public school.

Then stop teaching in public school.

Do you know how hard it is to get a job when you are overqualified for anything? I only work as a substitute because if I ever get a classroom job then it would add to my years of teaching.

Heloise

I'd rather chop off large parts of my body off than live in such a rude, dangerous, unfriendly and unintelligent place as your America and I hope you never get a visa to enter Europe!

Sounds like you're describing France not America Christopher. Americans don't have shit on the hordes of unbathed, brie eating, surrender monkeys that inhabit France when it comes to being rude and xenophobic Chris.

I have a T shirt that has a german and french flag on it and it says what part of europe are you from.....

underneath the french flag it says "the part whose ass we saved" and under the german flag it says "the part who ass we kicked." Hahah

But seriously ....Europe sucks... you can have it all to yourself Chris.

As for AMerica not being the best nation on earth.........


if America is such a bad place why do more people seek to emigrate here than any other nation on earth? why do people buy our products and immerse themselves in things produced by the american culture? why does the UN (useless nations) get about half it's funding from the US and then badmouth us?

Seems to me like most of the rest of the world are a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

Actually, I've been to France many times and, apart from their odd conviction that French is a great language, they're very charming people.

Your ideas seem rooted in a warped mindset of hate and odd post 2nd World War prejudices, Archie. You do understand that all ended over sixty years ago, right?

Maybe it's because the USA so very nearly sided with Germany back then that bugs you about the French?

Or maybe it's because your country would probably never have won its freedom from the British if it wasn't for crucial French military intervention?

Or is it that France loved the idea of America so much as to send it the Statue of Liberty?

Archie, I'd say it is you that is the hypocrite - but don't go letting reality get in the way of venting your own bitter stream of bile, that's so much more fun and doesn't require any of that tricky thinking stuff or intellectual honesty.

I've been to Paris in the past 5 years and they are assholes!

Yes the french did help us win our independence from the British but we have repaid the favor tenfold.

My ideas are based on what's going on in the world today Chris.

You don't see people clamoring, risking thier lives to get into France do you?

NO other nation or culture has as much widspread and far reaching influence on the world than America.

Virtually every nation in europe has a much higher unemployment rate than that of the US.

I'd say you were jealous and that that was the root of your animosity toward the US Chris but I know better. You're so ignorant that you actually believe the bile that YOU spill. Typical European non-american douchebag with a superiority complex.

Most european nations are at least 4-5 times older than America yet we have eclipsed them in every aspect of government, economics, science, technology you name it, in just over 200 years.

You conviently ignored many of the points that I made with regard to America being the most emigrated to country in the world, America funding nearly half of the UN, America giving more in economic aid to impoverished nations than any other nation, America donating more than nay other nation in the world to the AIDS problem in Africa, America giving more aid than any other nation to help the victims of the recent tsunami in asia...etc etc etc

Why don't you address some of these points Chris?

Well, why are you worry? I'm Mexican and really i don't care about your country, in fact is last country in this world i would go. Immigration in latin american is a cultural problem, all those people are just following the funny american dream, like all your ancestors, so please think first before sy something stupid, just like "Supporting Illegal Immigration Is NOT Christian", please grow up schizoids!!!!!!

That's not what AMerica is Matthew. people want to come here because thier own nations are either third world shitholes rife with poverty and corruption or socialist shitholes rife with unemployment and pacifist pussies

Nice ... do you pray to Jesus with that mouth??

I go to France regularly, and my wife is french. I have never been treated rudely or been insulted by a French person. If you treat them as a reasonable human they will return the favor. Like most people anywhere in the world, they will treat you as you treat them: maybe that's why they treat you like an a..hole.

Actually, Archie, people are risking their lives to get into Europe every single day. YOU may not see it but it's pretty hard for you to see anything new bent over double like that.

Nobody is denying the USA has had a lot of influence on global culture but not all of it has been good. Sure, there are some structural problems to be over come but I'd rather have our social model than the USA's mix of heavy state control, heavy policing and high crime any day.

I was wondering when you'd trot out the lazy jealousy argument - it's just as mistaken as your empty presumption that I spilt any bile at all. Let's see, I'm simultaneously jealous, ignorant, and a European non-American douchebag with a superiority complex. I'm just grateful the only power you have is to vote once every few years.

The USA hasn't eclipsed anybody at all, just because one star shines briughtly doesn't drown out the whole sky. You just sound insecure and full of empty bravado, desperately trying to reduce these topics to the level of some school football game.

I don't know if the USA is the country most people want to move to and really don't care. It seems most people want to shop at WalMart and eat in MacDonalds but that doesn't mean it is somehow a better choice.

As for funding the UN, I think it's still the case that the USA is the country with the largest unpaid contributions ever and seems to think that not paying in billions of dollars whilst complaining about the UN's lack of resources is a credible policy.

I'm no expert on these things like some but I think you'll also find that US economic aid may be the largest in dollar terms but not as a peercentage of the economy - which is of course the only rational basis for comparison.

There's nothing wrong with the French. I've been there quite a few time and outside of Paris they're generally pretty reasonable people. In Paris there are people in the service industry who ARE arrogant and anti-American, but it's very different in the countryside or smaller cities. My main complaint about France these days is the damned African immigrants who can't speak proper French and are incomprehensible, and yet management insists on putting them on the drive through speaker at McDonalds.

Dave

"There's nothing wrong with the French."

True, and they were right about opposing the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Guess I have to take back my approval of the French. There's nothing wrong with them except for their willingness to let the people of Iraq live under an oppressive regime so long as it bribed them with oil.

Is that better?

Dave

Jinger Jarrett wrote: "What's worse, aren't we creating a double standard by saying that we will convict some people of certain crimes but not others? Lawbreakers, regardless of the crime, must be punished. This is the only way that we can keep order in this country and preserve our sovereignty."

Just who broke the law? Who didn't preserve our sovereignty? That's where the disagreement among christians is!!!

By refusing to enforce the law's (and in some cases at the local level even deliberately obstructing the laws) established in 86 by the IRCA, the US Federal, State, and local governments, has in fact agreed to a "social contract" (as fmr. Rep. Newt Gingrich referred to it) with our illegal immigrants, by giving them a wink and nod, as they uprooted and fled the poverty in their home land, entered this country, and took up employment!

Now! almost two decades later, they've suddenly decided they want to pull this contract away from them, and by fining their current employers, force them back to a land where any hope of bettering their lives could be some 20 30 years away. In other words they are going to punish them for something, the US government, has been encouraging them to do! Just what penalty will government officials be paying for their disregard of the law? How about we Christians begin advocating for a provision requiring that any Local, State or Federal official, who either ignored/refused, or enacted a policy designed to obstruct the federal laws established in the 86 IRCA, and any future law breaking official, receive no less than ten years in federal prison. (the same amount of time proposed in the Senate bill for becoming an American citizen)

Their two decade long, government-sanctioned social contract, has resulted in a permanent underclass because they are less able to bargain individually with employers for a full market wage, and therefore have no way of achieving economic mobility. President Bush is doing the only thing a good Christian would do, the right thing, by proposing we give them the opportunity to raise them-selves out of this underclass.

Furthermore, I've heard other members of my party express concerns about the amount of immigrants the Senate bill will allow into this country. On the Radio they were saying that allowing 60 million immigrants from third world countries over the next twenty years would be disastrous and would increase the welfare state to unprecedented proportions. I don't understand why we would be fearful of 60 million new immigrants over the next twenty years. As our baby boomers retire, isn't the United States going to lose 78.2 million Americans from it's work force over the next twenty years?? Are not more and more Americans beginning to agree that giving young Americans the freedom to chose where their Social Security comes is the right thing to do?? Don't immigrants come to make a better lives for themselves, because laws in their birth country prohibits growth?? With the help of our more libertarian Republicans, more and more Americans are better understanding that government run institutions restrict the freedom to chose, and government entitlements in general, create poverty!
Immigrant from socialist countries already and corrupt countries like Mexico already understand this fact.

Personally I think our conservative representatives, worried about the immigrant growth causing the welfare state to grow, need to worry about doing what they do best, continuing to cut our taxes even further, so that we have more of our money to give to our Churches and charities. The churches, worshipers and charity volunteers will worry about doing what we do best, helping people, be they native or new immigrants, to help themselves achieve a better life!

MCH....You are so right!

Dave....You eat at McDonald's in France? Are you kidding?

There's nothing wrong with the French

Don't you mean, "the Freedom?"

Dave#95. This is why I dont drive through. The IQ of most workers at McDonalds and all the others types is below camel dung. America the stupid.

This brings me to Minority Leader Harry the little wimp Reid. What a macho mam. Say all you want to this dork and the answer is always the same. "Racist". What would Reid have done if she was president on 911?

In 1906 congress passed and President Theodore Roosevelt signed legislation requiring people seeking to become naturalized citizens to demonstrate oral English literacy. Guess Theodor was a racist Harry. In 1950, the requirement was strengthend to require people to demonstrate an understanding of the English language. More racist for Harry. Now it gets even more racist Harry so hold on to your panties. Including an ability to read, write and speak words in ordinary usage in the English language.

Let us all go out and vote. We have no frecking clue about who we are voting for, what the prop's mean and how do I amend this or that.

America, bend over and kiss your stupid big fat ass adios.

sr opines,

"Dave#95. This is why I dont drive through. The IQ of most workers at McDonalds and all the others types is below camel dung. America the stupid."

Hmmm...

sr, I used to manage a Burger King in Minnesota, and I will tell you that the drive-thru workers we had were prewtty sharp cookies - especially when you lined them up against a lot of the fools who came through gabbing on cell phones and not paying attention at all to what they were allegedly doing.

I never almost ordered on a drive-thru myself anywhere in the States - but this was because I didn't want to sit on line and spend gasoline if I didn't have to. Most of the time, the drive-thru workers at other restaurants I visited were pretty sharp and on the ball.

There's nothing wrong withthe French unless you don't consider anything wrong with the folllowing: taking bribes to look the other way from a crazy Iraqi dictator who brutalizes his people and ignores UN resolutions, having a national unemployment rate over 10% and an unemployment rate for young people in the high 20%, having riots in the streets due to racial tensions and a stagnant economy,

A quote from Chris

"I don't know if the USA is the country most people want to move to and really don't care."

Yes of course Americans are the ignorant ones right Chris?

If there is such a distaste for all things American in europe and everywhere else then why doesn't everyone just say no to our money, military and culture? I mean if europe is so superior why don't they do this Chris?

I know you like to think of Europe as some sociliast utopia Chris but the facts just don't bear it out. First of all, the major nations of europe Germany, France, Spain, Italy, all have unemplyment rates of over double that of the US. Great britian does have a slightly lower unemployment rate than the US but then the world has seen that they like not to be grouped in with mainland Europe and many of Brits are in staunch oppoisition ot being part of the EU. Third...the gross domestic product per capita of all european nations is lower than that of all but 4 states in the US. That's right whole european nations cannot even compete with single states in America.


Chris writes

"I'd rather have our social model than the USA's mix of heavy state control, heavy policing and high crime any day."

Heavy state control in America? The last time I checked you guys in Europe were taxed almost twice as much as we are here for the purpose of personal wealth and income redistribution. The healthcare systems in europe are either owned by or run by the government.

You mentioned that comparing economic figures can only be done as percents rather than raw numbers if it is to make sense. The same goes for crime.

According to interpol the crime rates per 100,000 in 2001 were:

* 4161 - US
* 7736 - Germany
* 6941 - France
* 9927 - England and Wales

The numbers don't seem to support you high crime in America assertion do they Chris?

So if you want to keep making dumbass assumptions about the contrat between America dn Europe please do.

I am quite prepared to keep proving you wrong Chris.

Archie, firstly, you aren't proving me wrong, you're only proving that you can't understand somebody who speaks the same language as you, never mind someone who doesn't actually speak English.

To call me ignorant for not being up to date on the latest trends in US migration is as laughable as it is irrelevant. I simply said that I wouldn't want to live in an America as defined by your warped and hateful set of beliefs.

You'll just have to trust me on that. I find you delusional, paranoid, mean and nasty and that's not a set of values I can get behind.

You don't know the first thing about what I think, Archie, you're too busy leaping to your stereotyped mindset and hurling out your bitter cliches.

Sure, there are several economic and social issues that need addressing in Europe. That's always been true and always will be, both in Europe and the USA - and everywhere else in the world for that matter - so you're not really saying anything at all. Mind you, we already knew that.

Over incorrect assumptions you might want to rethink before continuing to make a fool of yourself in public:-

1. State control and taxes are not the same thing.

2. Changing the subject without answering the question is NOT an acceptable response.

3. Life IS more violent and aggressive in the USA, particularly in the major cities but also out in the countryside too.

I have been to the USA many times, in areas of fantastic wealth and mindshredding poverty, and seen a lot of crime. I have also spent a lot of time in almost all the major European state capitals.

Trust me, it's not the same at all, regardless of what those statistics of yours may say. The level of aggression in the air is markedly higher in the USA.

In some ways you are a classic American stereotype yourself, somewhere between the emotional depth of Al Bundy and the intellectual grasp of Cliff from Cheers. Thanks for the entertainment.

The USA is a wonderful country of magnificent landscapes and unlimited hopes of a better future in a more just world.

It's also, as one of the world's younger national cultures, just a little unsure of it's role in a world that it's only comparatively recently come to understand as rather more complicated and nuanced than it first appeared.

Ready to come down off that high horse yet, cowboy?

"Dave....You eat at McDonald's in France? Are you kidding?"

Actually, McD is better in France than in the US. The burgers are leaner and less fatty, the frites are excellent and the espresso is often the best in town. In fact, I have scandalized my French family by getting espresso at the McD drivethru, which is always empty (of course, one misses the REAL pleasure of a cafe, sitting at the table on the plaza watching the people, enjoying the air, the chiaroscuro shadows of plane trees on the earth, etc.). Nevertheless, the McD burgers are not good enough to sway one from going to a real restaurant or sidewalk cafe for lunch. But the McD on Champs elysee is always jammed because it is a very chic meeting place for young parisians. It's easy to find: right across from the huge Banana Republic and Virgin Records store which are the ultimate in chic.

Nobody has made a case as to what God or Jesus think about all this. Is Jesus to sit back and let his followers quote scripture that was written when the world was enormously different than it is today?

Christians have taken opposite positions on important issues past. Slavery was one of them. Did God, or even the scripture really, and definitively, support either side?

It was resolved through a civil war. The issues were social, economic and political.

The same is true for immigration.

The call to resist the 'invasion' in religious garb is just a reactionary appeal to irrational fears. This more than borders on the hysterical.

Ruvy my amigo, Yes I know you managed a Burger King in Minnesota which was some time ago. Come to Florida. It's not just the drive throuh. Inside is the same. KFC is another story. The old Col would be doing flip flops if he could see the Kingdom of Fried Chicken now.

Arch, Sure crime is up in Europe. They removed those dreadful guns from the law abiding. Guess who still has the guns? CORRECT.

Never been to France. No desire. However if I did my choice of cuisine would not be dining under the golden arches. France will be the next kingdom of fat, second to America when they start eating double meat, double cheese, double whoppers, double fries, and all the other fat foods. Napoleon Bonaparte once said for an army to win they should eat 2lb's of escargot and 3gal's of wine each day and leave the whoppers and fries for our enemy.

Makes sence to me.

Monday is Memorial Day. Thank a vet.

Chris, I don't disagree with your perception of Arch's attitude. There is no doubt, he has allowed the pride he takes in our country to become arrogance, and he could probably use a reminder that the US is only a few law's away from becoming one of those "shitholes" (as he put it), to bring about the humility he's lacking. Fortunately, for the USA we aren't all as insulting, and arrogant as he is.

However, in the same breath, I do agree with many of the statements he's made on the comparisons between America and Europe. Your right, America is one of the younger nation's in the world, and yet she has exceeded our European counterparts to become the most powerful and successful nation in the world today. I have no doubt that this success is due to American ambition and because of the lack of State control, not heavy state control. (But it is increasing by the day)

However, in the same breath the destruction and devastation that Europe suffered due to WWII was so great, that Europe was forced to begin again from scratch, and therefore could be considered even younger than the US. How far Europe has come since WWII , should also bring a great sense of pride to Europeans.

Arch used taxes to point out that Europeans live in a country with more state control than America because Americans see taxes AS state control. For two reasons- Anytime a government can decide how much of your hard earned income, you can keep, and how much the government can take, that is state control. 2nd. The more money the government takes from you the more power and control over your life it can take from you. Governments can't support the institutions that it creates to control your choices, actions, your life in general, without your money.

Also His arrogance aside, I think he was trying to assert that the US is the most generous nation in the world. He only mentioned the monetary aspect of US giving, (probably because he was too occupied with insulting you) But had he included US resources, he'd be correct in his assertion, both in absolute measurements and as a percentage of GDP. In addition to giving more foreign aid, and in private foreign aid in absolute numbers, than any other country, we have long provided the most foreign direct investment to the developing world and generated the bulk of the world's research and development, spurring long-lasting economic development and saving lives through better food and medication. We also contribute the most militarily, guaranteeing the security necessary for growth and democracy. The big point--that the totality of U.S. foreign assistance far exceeds all other developed nations. Giving in this manner is very consistent with the personal beliefs held by the majority of Americans. That being, that the best way to help those in need, is to help them pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

ARCH is being a twit really necessary? BTW Our health care system might as well be state controlled, it is unarguably one of the most heavily government regulated industries, hence the reason it is so expensive today. Sadly since complete and utter disregard for the constitution has become the norm, the reality is that our health care system is only one liberal presidential pen stroke away from becoming a universal health care system.

Remember Arch: But for the grace of God there go I...

Beth,

Foreign aid is designed to bankrupt and impoverish the recipient country as a set-up for economic rape and pillage.

ARCH, Keep being a twit. Im a twit myself just like Beth is a twit. Mark Twain once said it is far better to speak twitenly then not to speak as a twit. Twain remains for all and he hait no twit.

Forever twitenly.

sr.

"Guess I have to take back my approval of the French. There's nothing wrong with them except for their willingness to let the people of Iraq live under an oppressive regime so long as it bribed them with oil."
- Dave Nalle

And of course, all your hundreds-of-thousands of rhetorical, typed words of "support" of the invasion have made exactly same the impact as what the French have done:

Z-E-R-O!!

So you actually have more in common with the French than to our soldiers being sacrificed over there, Nalle...

You know, there's a whole thread of relevant discussion here you could comment on, MCH. But you'd rather bore us with your repetative irrelevancies.

Dave

"...There's nothing wrong with them except for their willingness to let the people of Iraq live under an oppressive regime so long as it bribed them with oil."

But wasn't that US policy a few years ago? I remember happy smiling pictures of one D Rumsfeld with Saddam under an earlier administration that was considered Excellent.

Maybe it's just hard for dimwits like me and the French to follow the twists and turns of administration policy.

I've always found the French to be lively, lovely people - and I can't speak French very well at all, but they were generous in spite of that. Besides, anyone who invents Brie & can make bread the way they do is AOK in my book. And like w/the US, it ain't the French people who are skanks - it's the French (and US) governments. Viva le peuple Francois!

Have you taken enough yet? I see your point, to a degree. But this weekend a though occurred to me.

Given the argument at hand, and the "talk" of amnesty... has ushered in a surprising (yet not surprising) event.

The discussion around amnesty is bringing EVEN MORE people to the border. EVEN MORE people are crossing, EVEN MORE people stand to injure themselves... why? So they can get in under the wire IF, I say IF, I say it again IF, amnesty is granted...

So... the mere debate around a POSSIBLE AMNESTY is causing a rise in the crossing rates.

10 percent of Mexico now lives in the U.S.? Wow.

There is a lot to be said for the corrupt government and other business practices within a country if fully 10% of it's population leaves to live in a better off, convenient country located next door.

That's amazing. Why are we the magnate? Based on your writing... America is a blessed nation, we have favor in God's eyes. Is that true? Is that the reason we appear to be a light upon the world? A beacon of hope. An answer to prayer.

That's a lot to think about. There is a lot wrapped into those thoughts, which a lot of Americans, and respondants to this blog, don't comprehend.

And will probably NEVER comprehend. Their eyes are closed, there is nothing in their hearts, but hatred. Blind hatred to any thought that might show a blessing, favor, or that would ask the question of... Are we a country which others shoud aspire to, or come to?

"But you'd rather bore us with your repetative irrelevancies."
- Dave Nalle

I don't have a degree in English, but isn't it spelled "repetitive"(?)

HOLD IT! What a lengthy dialogue. I was under the impreession this piece was written due to people in the religious community supporting illegals. At least one is a Catholic priest. I know the reason for political asylum. But if those in Mexico would put the same energy into be raising their voices to protest conditions which are put into the protest in Amercian streets, THAT would turn things around. Vicente Fox needs to go.

MCH#116. That was forceful. Or is it fartful.

You're wrong--people ARE clamoring to get into France. And yes they do pay high taxes on all goods and services. But at least they are not fat. My second language is French, but I can't seem to get a job teaching French because the racist system here goes all the way to Canada to get French speaking people from there to come here to teach. And naturally they are all white women.

But aside from that I would leave the US and move to France. Why? Because they treated me fairly and better than they treat most whites who visit. Why? Well, I did speak their language, much better now. And they seem to prefer the exotic to the white bread...sorry about that.

Besides they find writers and intellectuals as heroes rather than people who simply run around with no clothes on, who can't act, and makes lots of money to not be worthy of their time and attention. I do think they are a little mad about The Da Vinci Code making it so big.

I loved I M Pei's pyramid entrance to the Louvre. It was being refurbished when I was there because the French gov't had part of it as offices and they moved out to a building near the Gare de Lyon. So, I have not seen everything in the Louvre but I did see La Jocund (sp) or the Mona Lisa. I was disappointed that it was so small, surrounded by plexiglass, roped off and always had a crowd around it.

Heloise (forgive my rudeness it comes with French territory)

I never thought the French were rude... just French. What's the problem?

Joey, where have you been? Rudeness is the sine quo non of being french. In fact that is what the word "frank" means--rude.

Heloise

Beth and anyone else reading.

If pointing out the inaccuaret statements that Chris makes about America makes me a twit then I am a twit.

He says there is more crime in America so I provide interpol states which show he is wrong.

He says america has too much state control and I point out that we are not nearly taxed as much as europe and that our healthcare system is not govt runned or owned.

He claims Americans are rude and ignorant then makes the statement that he doesn't care about global population shifts and the reasons for them ..labelling them as American trends.

And anyone who has been to paris can tell you that the french that live there are pretty much the most xenophobic, smug, and rude people on the planet.

He claims that life is more violent in the USA than Europe. I could provide statistical data on international crime from international sources that shows this is actually not true but he'd just ignore it because he's the one who is arrogant and unwilling to admit that his notions of the world are anything but 100 percent accurate.

You call me a twit but I'm not the one insisiting that things are the way they are just because I percieve them to be that way. I'm actually pointing out facts, citing studies, providing case data etc....

But Chris isn't interested in that because he is after all a superior European and anything offered by me is to him "American ignorance."

There's no reasoning with a person like this.

"inaccuaret"

mwuahahahaaaha

pwned

Yeah you can't actually respond to the content of anything I said so you have to harp on a typo.

How pathetic.

Good gracious Heloise, being frank... I always thought was being up front, truthful.... I'll defer to Webster on this (the 1955 unabridged, thank you very much). I found this particularly good edition... on trashday... on the curb, waiting for futher distribution... in front of a School teacher's townhouse no less...

Frank (4). Free in uttering one's real sentiments; not reserved; using no disguise; candid; open; ingenuous; outspoken.

Still not a problem. The French have always been "French" so why is there surprise, when they speak frankly... it's thier nature. And I really don't have a problem with that, it's refreshing.

Archie, once again your life in fantasy land leads you to make a mistake.

Nothing you are writing here is worth taking seriously because it's a load of prejudice and hate and not even a coherent set of ideas never mind a rational political or social philosophy.

On that basis, your own pathetic comments aren't really worth taking seriously so I mocked you falloing victim to your own pretention.

How comedic!

My my, the two of you, Bing and Chris...

Look, America is a great place to live. If you are not Jewish, it is an even greater place to live because you don't feel like the sugar in someone elses coffee...

Just make sure you have your health insurance and stay out of the way of Somali thugs...

I don't know about France - but the French Chief Rabbi says that Jews there should not display outward signs of Jewishness. So, that means it's not a particlularly safe place for Jews. As for the rest of you, so long as you don't look Jewish...

As to the topic itself, I fail to see how in a society that pretends to be not dominated by one religion (i.e. America), how whether one supports or does not support illegal immigration can be a relevant issue to Christianity.

I guess someone like you would consider factual data from international sources concerning global emigration and immigration trends, taxation, and crime fantasy Chris.

You're the one living in a world of prejudice and your own blinding pre-conceived notions Chris. Your obvious derision and scorn for anything that threatens these notions, no matter how firmly rooted in reality, is quite pitiful.


By the way you spelled falling wrong in your last post. I only point it out because you have done it to me with such glee....as if typos actually mean something other than the poster made a mistake in hitting the wrong key.

Ooh, look at the nasty man trying to pretend to be the voice of reason. I think I almost preferred the blatant hatred and sneering.

For the record, you didn't present any facts at all, just some statistics snatched out of context accompanied by a whole load of bile and bullshit.

I didn't point out your typo with glee, more irony laced with pity really - but you carry right on sucking up your self-righteous certainty and making up fantasy criticism that has ZERO relationship with reality.

Ruvy, I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick; I'm not criticising the USA just the delusional way that Archie is picturing both it and Europe.

Chris, you're talking to an ex-pat. I understand all to well what you are saying - and not saying...

Ruvy, as I'm not "not saying" anything, I don't quite know what you mean. Just for the record, I'm quite a literal guy (I think it's the autism!) and if I didn't say it, I wasn't thinking it, most of the time!

Chris, what you didn't say was that many Americans are provincial f