Dave, it's been a long time since I have seen any mention of "The Mouse That Roared." Any country that declared war on America today could count on destruction - or attempted destruction- without the Marshall Plan.

We'll see if Ahmadinejad and Al Qaeda can wreck this attempt at setting up a government. I would say it would be interesting to watch, but there are just too many funerals in Iraq these days...

Blah, blah, blah, it was all "worth it" to invade Iraq. It's simply mind boggling the extents the US government and her sycophants will go to in order to put a happy face on Iraq. The US employing death squads in Iraq is not a proper policy for winning "hearts and minds" nor is it a proper policy for "democracy" (whatever that word means anymore). What a sickness this is.

Iraq was never, and can never be, a democracy with equal rights. The only way to govern there is by proto-fascist dictatorship, like Saddam did. The death and destruction may not end soon, but it certainly will never ever end as long as the US military is on Iraq's soil and propping up the puppet Iraqi regime along with military occupation.

Ah, another "corner turned" in Iraq....so many....they're just going in circles now.

I've been reflecting on this issue for a day or so now, and I've come to think that it's really a pretty fascinating situation.

TommyD is actually right for once. The proper government for Iraq is probably a fascist state established by military coup. It might even end up with a decent sort of responsible government that way as they did in Pakistan. That's probably the natural method of regime change in much of that part of the world.

But at the same time, the Iraqis do have a level of education and civilization which certainly makes them capable of understanding and participating in representative government. So what we have there now is an interesting experiment where they're being denied the opportunity to follow what would be the natural system of establishing a government and essentially being forced to follow their best instincts, kind of like conditioning a dog with a shock collar.

The interesting thing is that sometimes this approach can work. Function has been known to follow form, and if you force people to behave a certain way for long enough, eventually it goes from forced behavior to ingrained and willing behavior and their actual mental attitude changes. It worked in Japan after WW2, and I think that's basically the model we're following here.

Dave

"Iraq was never, and can never be, a democracy with equal rights."

Well, it ain't a "pure" democracy, but neither is the US. And it is unlikely to have "equal rights" for women, because it is a religious Muslim country.

But anyone rational would have to admit that the current ELECTED government is a whole lot better than Saddam and his sons in control of a totalitarian, despotic, undemocratic, and criminal government...

That being said, I am concerned about two things that DN wrote in this article:

U. S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said of al-Maliki, "This is a strong leader. I have met him. I looked into his eyes. This is somebody who is determined to do what is right for the Iraqi people."

Yeah, well, Bush looked into Putin's eyes and said, "I was able to get a sense of his soul, a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."

So, I am not sure I am comforted by Condi's subjective opinions here...

Also, DN wrote:

"He went on to explain a 34-point plan for restoring order"

and

"The cabinet has a total of 40 members"

I'm sorry, but those large numbers do not impress me...instead, they worry me...

The large numbers of cabinet members make sense for a couple of reasons. First, they need to be able to give each faction some representation in the cabinet, and second the cabinet includes the heads of all of the major executive departments of government, which is a pretty long list. The US cabinet isn't as large, but we have more of a hierarchical structure to our administration than is provided for in the Iraqi constitution.

dave

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Thanks, Dave! Yer one big bundle of good news about Vietn... um, um, I mean Iraq!

~Shark signing off to go book a summer vacation in Baghdad.



"Things are always better than they seem!" -- Pollyanna

Shark, I recommend against a summer vacation in Baghdad. It's 50 degrees centigrade in the shade. No fun for us pampered Americans.

"the sky is falling" -- Chicken Little

So? When can we expect our soldiers back home?

I dunno know Dave. Yes, there's almost an administration but I think you're underplaying the significance of the government's inability to fill the three most important cabinet posts.

Yet it is still one small spark of hope in a situation that's hard to understand from our calm shores. I too share concerns about our trying to spread democracy to people who've never known anything but dictators and whose primary interests are security, food, shelter, energy, etc.

The constant killings, the inability of the Iraqis to truly field a police force or army, and the rising violence in Afghanistan leave me more concerned than comforted. But only time will tell.

For everyone's sake, I hope you're right.

In Decaf Veritas

Really, Dave??? Is that so? Well, time will tell. Democracy will never work in the Middle East. Let us hope this catastrophic war will teach us that it is neither our privilege nor our responsibility to attempt to cram democracy down the throats of every nation on planet earth.

"But anyone rational would have to admit that the current ELECTED government is a whole lot better than Saddam and his sons in control of a totalitarian, despotic, undemocratic, and criminal government..."
- RJ Elliott

Yeah, it sure has been convenient for the pontificators to have those brave enough to actually serve and carryout the physical invasion and occupation...at the cost of 2,400 killed in combat and another 17,000 wounded in action (and counting)...eh?

I dunno know Dave. Yes, there's almost an administration but I think you're underplaying the significance of the government's inability to fill the three most important cabinet posts.

Actually, I've tried to make the point that the way that that was dealt with is a significant and positive sign. The fact that there were no additional individuals who could be selected immediately doesn't mean that the jobs aren't filled. I think the way they were reassigned on a 'temporary' basis may be quite meaningful.

Yet it is still one small spark of hope in a situation that's hard to understand from our calm shores. I too share concerns about our trying to spread democracy to people who've never known anything but dictators and whose primary interests are security, food, shelter, energy, etc.

Remember that we're not really talking about Democracy here. It's a representative republic of federated semi-autonomous states. Democracy isn't a government, it's a crude method of mass decision making which looks very egalitarian, but can be enormously troublesome and easily abused.

The constant killings, the inability of the Iraqis to truly field a police force or army

They've actually got a hell of a military and police force going, it's just that the problems they face are not necessarily the kind which can be dealt with by brute force and numbers of men and guns.

But only time will tell.

At least you realize that time is the key. A lot of people aren't willing to see anything through, a chronic problem of the 'me' generation in America.

Dave