Some of what you're saying makes sense, but I still think of my ancestors and their dream to come to America. If they had not been able to come here, I might be tending sheep in Northern Italy or whatever. Not that there's anything wrong with that!

I guess I am a bit too idealistic, but I still remember those words of Emma Lazarus to be found on Liberty ISland here in New York. I hope they still mean something to all Americans.

You left one thing out of the equation: the horrible state of the countries left behind!! Many commentators are offering that illegals (meaning Mexicans) protest the way that the corruption is allowed to run rampant there.

Go protest in Mexico...they are planning to legalize hard drugs. They have a horrible gang and drug problem as we have seen in black ghettos.

It is true that the countries in the southern regions of the world are less well off. And perhaps God planned it that way. The illegal immigration here and in Europe--where they are doing no better at assimilation--will upset the cart and the balance of the world. It's too much too soon.

Heloise

I agree to a degree with the author, but I disagree with allowing those within the country to stay.
Don't get me wrong, I've done missionary work in Mexico, and I can't blame anyone for wanting better for their families. But that same bleeding-heart mentality is what got us into this mess. The problem with "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddles masses yearning to breathe free" is that there are far more huddled masses than there is money to feed, clothe, and educate them (not to mention convert everything to say "en espanol press numero ocho"). We're talking "big picture" here.
-Fact: our pourous border has provided us with 12 million criminals, endorsed by Mexico, and some bearing thoughts of annexation through immigration (http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html)
-Fact: illegal immigrants take up billions of taxpayer dollars, and put little in return
-Fact: according to US statistics, those that come over here, are poor, and remain so.
-Fact: Those that come over refuse to "integrate", instead feeling that our society should change to convenience them.
-Fact: by granting amnesty to 12 million illegal latinos (most of whom are granted dual-citizenship by Mexico) it would be virtually impossible to pass any further legislation, or quite possible to keep any laws on the books with all the Southwestern states suddenly demographically latino majorities.
What we need to shut down the border, make it a felony to sneak across the border, retroactively apply it, make it a felony to employ illegals, place a 20% tax on all wire-transfers of money leaving the country, and embargo Mexico until they actually help out, or at least cease sending their floatsam and jetsam north. Make no mistake, it'll hurt us economically, but that's only because the morons on both sides of the isle in Washington have been passing the buck for decades.
That's my take.
-WTF

Amen to this article!

Illegal is still illegal. The US is not responsible for birth place. The illegals are smart enough to make low wages to circumvent laws, live in single home/apartments with multiple people, take social services away from LEGAL US citizens, and don't pay social security, or annual taxes. To every illegal of every country: if your country has problems, fix them. My ancestors came from Sweden in the 1800's. They were farmers, unskilled, and managed to learn English. They gave up "their" flag for the American one. They came over LEGALLY. They did not "demand" rights that weren't theirs to get. They earned them, by hard work and obeying OUR laws.

I consider the USA as my house and home. The illegals have invaded my home thru an unlocked door and claim they have "rights". They have "rights" for me to pay for their medical, welfare, and to educate their children at ten thousand a pop. We have taken the pressure off the Mexican government at our expense. Encourage the illegals to rally and march in Mexico City displaying American flags. A solution would be to cut off all benefits in six months. Fine companies that hire illegals. Unfortunately, the term illegal has lost its true meaning.

Logtar,

I soooooo love your article! I actually experienced a bit of deja vu reading it, as I published a blog (quite similar in sentiment) within an hour of yours being published. We should have collaborated ;-)!

I think you hit it right on the head my friend! You actually gave me another perspective on how hypocritical this country has been in its treatment of illegal immigrants. How can we (with a straight face) persecute people who come to this country for a better way of life, but fail to expose and penalize corporations who ship jobs out to other foreigners?

This country has become so hypocritical and bipolar in its values and laws, it makes me want to vomit! I am physically ill over the relentless debate over illegals who work for a fraction of Americans, while MAJOR American corporations ship out jobs without repercussion! I am sickened by the constant bogus platforms built around the topic of all the money and tax dollars the American economy is losing to illegal immigrants! Has anyone done the math on American money lost to international outsourcing????

So here's my idea:
Since American's and the American government are obsessed with deporting illegal immigrants in this country, but seem to care little about the deportation of American jobs, why not keep those jobs on American soil and give them exclusively to immigrants already here? Trust me though, even though non-Americans already fill them, all HELL will break loose if those same jobs were given to foreigners already living in America.

America is dripping with self-indulgent, controlling hypocrites. We say one thing and execute another. We have lost our focus and compassion.

"America is dripping with self-indulgent, controlling hypocrites. We say one thing and execute another. We have lost our focus and compassion."

The world is filled with hypocrites. Just look at the way Americans abroad are routinely abused by foreign governments, which then turn around and demand special treatment for their citizens in the US.

so wat if we are immigrants. you ask we are taking youre jobs?well is a simmple answer we do it because americans aren't and we need the money so why not take it someone has to the job!!!!!

we are not trying to take over america we can if we wanted but we are just trying to be PART of it.if you think we are taking our jobs[americans]then why didn't you do it before we came!!!!!!!!!!this is suppose to be a country of FREEDOM let me tell you americans you have FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!

Lilah, Logtar,

I understand and sympathise with both of you. Believe me I do. But let's have a little lesson in economics.

You work in an insurance firm in Pittsburg, say, just for the sake of discussion that handles vehicular and property insurance claims. Five p.m. rolls around and you are ready to go home after a long day. As you leave, you meet the night shift coming in to work the phones, and process the claims you have been dealing with all day long. Let us say, just for the sake of argument, that you are paid $20/hr, and your night time replacement gets paid $22/hr - your wage plus a 10% night differential. Your firm does all it can to run a 24/7 operation.

Ace Insurance down the road, a competitor, is owned by a guy who was born in Tel Aviv and is trying to eat up some of your market share. He cuts a deal with Avi, his old parachutist buddy in the IDF, to hire a bunch of English speaking people to handle the calls at a call center near Tel Aviv and do the processing. Your night-time replcement costs $22/hr plus another 12% for various costs like unemployment insurance, FICA, etc. for an 8 hour shift. In short, he costs $197 all tolled, without health insurance costs.

Avi pays out NIS 280 a night, NIS 35/hr for each worker - this includes the equivalent taxes like unemployment insurance, health insurance, etc., $61 a night. Ace Insurance pays $90 for the services and cuts its premiums to new customers, and eats into your firm's market share. More and more of the energy of your firm is spent trying to keep customers from transferring to Ace, largely unsuccessfully.

That is how outsourcing works.

Your boss decides to cut a deal with his friend from Bangalore - who hires a series of workers to do the overnight work at your firm, and he winds up paying $85 a night per worker, and your night-time replacement is let go along with lots of other workers. It also cuts premiums to levels similar to those of Ace Insurance. After about a month, Ace Insurance is no longer holding the high cards in the property insurance game.

Is this right? I'll let you think about it. There are lots of Israelis making their living just this way, as are many Indians.

Think about it.

Dear person that wrote this I will like to say that immigrantes come for a better life. Also get your facts strait illegal immigrants do pay taxis.
Every american came illegal because they inveded indian terretory.

If these illegal immigrants want to come over to this country to have a better life then why don't they just act smart and come over here legally so then they won't have to leave. And to the last comment made illegal immigrants don't pay takes because they don't have a social security number.

Wow this article is wrongheaded. I missed it the first time around, but have to make at least one point now.

One -- Send corporate America to rehab so they can get over the need for cheap labor. Not just from illegals, but also outsourcing to other countries. How? Simple. Make fines so steep that the cheap labor would never offset them.

What corporate America does to keep prices low is ultimately done to the benefit of the American consumer. If you want to stop them using illegals and fine them into oblivion, be aware that what you're doing is not harming the corporations, but harming the consumers who buy their products. What you're talking about is creating massive inflation, raising the price of everything and impoverishing ordinary Americans just to stick it to the people you erroneously think of as the bad guys in this situation.

Dave

What corporate America does to keep prices low is ultimately done to the benefit of the American consumer. If you want to stop them using illegals and fine them into oblivion, be aware that what you're doing is not harming the corporations, but harming the consumers who buy their products.

So. If "corporate America" decides that it would "ultimately" be "to the benefit of the American consumer" to "keep prices low" by ignoring various out-of-control requirements of OSHA, Workman's Compensation, etc., then the government should refrain from "fining them into oblivion", because that would be "harming the consumers." Is that what you're saying?

And why are you not concerned about the harm to a certain class of American consumers, known as low-skilled workers, who are harmed by being kicked into the unemployed category as a direct result of being undercut by dirt cheap illegal and outsourced labor?

logtar: "... Economics 101 topic -- Supply and Demand."

Did you actually TAKE Econ101? Or are you speculating? Or are you just summoning an academic cognomen to lend force to your argument?

Yes Bliffle, I did take Econ 101.

Thanks Lilah!

And why are you not concerned about the harm to a certain class of American consumers, known as low-skilled workers, who are harmed by being kicked into the unemployed category as a direct result of being undercut by dirt cheap illegal and outsourced labor?

Because all of the statistics show that it's not happening. The illegals take the menial jobs and force the longer term residents up on the economic scale, into lower management and more skilled jobs. Just being fluent in English makes you more qualified and higher earning than most illegals, so with that skill you can go supervise minimum wage workers instead of being one.

Dave

The illegals take the menial jobs and force the longer term residents up on the economic scale, into lower management and more skilled jobs. Just being fluent in English makes you more qualified and higher earning than most illegals, so with that skill you can go supervise minimum wage workers instead of being one.

First of all, JUST the ability to speak English, doesn't automatically qualify someone to be in a managerial position. "Low-skilled American workers" really does mean LOW-SKILLED AMERICAN WORKERS!

And after all the current crop of 20 or 30 million illegal aliens are made into citizens (which will grow by another 10 or 20 million after just THAT generation of them are through having kids), thus making them eligible to sponsor another 60 million of their relatives, how big will the NEXT wave of cheap illegal labor have to be - 40 or 50 million? I mean the first wave will no longer want to be doing all those "jobs Americans don't want to do" will they, because THEY will then be Americans themselves!

What with approacing half a billion people by mid century, there will be a hell of a lot of lettuce to pick by primitive hand harvesting methods, since the availablity of slave labor for the whole first half of the 21st Century will have spared Big Agra the trouble and expense of adopting modernized automated processes that could have driven down the cost of food instead of merely slowing the increase in prices by using low-paid Mexicans.

Or ... we could STOP the uncontrolled runaway immigration-fueled population explosion that WILL turn America into another Chinese/Indian shithole for our posterity to inherit from us, before it's too late.

Dave - "What corporate America does to keep prices low is ultimately done to the benefit of the American consumer. If you want to stop them using illegals and fine them into oblivion, be aware that what you're doing is not harming the corporations, but harming the consumers who buy their products. What you're talking about is creating massive inflation, raising the price of everything and impoverishing ordinary Americans just to stick it to the people you erroneously think of as the bad guys in this situation."

You have a point here, and I don't agree with the author about fining for outsourcing overseas (I don't know the right solution for that). However, if we do not enforce laws against employers hiring illegals, the immmigration problem won't be solved. To the degree that impacts pricing, that's a cost of security.

I don't think *anything* an employer does to lower prices for consumers is acceptable.

With the high cost of meat these days, if you won't go veg, perhaps you should go cannibal!!!

By only cooking and eating undocumented immigrants, you'll both be doing the enviroment a favor _and_ opening up employment opportunities for literally _millions_ of American Citizens and Permanent Residents!!!

To help you get started, here's a couple of tasty recipes:


Marinated Leg of Person

1 leg, about 3 kilos
6 cups dry cider
1 kilo carrots, sliced thinly
8 medium onions, sliced thinly
16 juniper berries
8 leaves sage, chopped
1/2 cup butter
2 whole nutmegs, grated
salt and pepper to taste

Combine half each of the cider, nutmeg and sage with 2 of the onions, the juniper berries and salt and pepper to taste. Cut the leg into slices about 1 cm. thick and over these pour the marinade. Refrigerate, covered, for 36 - 48 hours, turning the meat occasionally.

Remove the meat from the marinade and dry with toweling. Strain the marinade and to this add the remaining cider.

In a large flameproof casserole melt the butter and, over a high flame, brown the meat slices on both sides. Remove the slices, lower the flame and add the remaining onions and the carrots, cooking until the onions are softened. Pour in the marinade and bring to a boil. Add the remaining seasonings, replace the venison, cover and place in a medium oven for 1 1/2 hours. Serve hot directly from the casserole. Serves 6 - 8.


Person Stew

1 shoulder of person, about 2 1/2 kilo), dressed and cut into serving pieces
1 bottle dry red wine
1 cup olive oil
1/2 cup red wine vinegar
6 Tbsp. each bacon fat and flour
2 large onions, chopped coarsely
1 large carrot, chopped coarsely
3 stalks celery, chopped coarsely
3 cloves garlic, chopped finely
6 shallots, chopped coarsely
12 juniper berries
12 whole peppercorns
2 whole cloves
2 bay leaves, crushed
2 Tbsp. parsley, chopped
1 tsp. salt
1/2 tsp. each thyme, oregano, basil and rosemary
salt, black pepper and cayenne pepper to taste

In a saucepan combine the wine, wine vinegar, olive oil, onions, carrot, shallots, celery, garlic, cloves and all of the herbs and spices. Bring just to a boil, immediately lower the flame and simmer for about 10 - 12 minutes. Remove from the flame and let cool for 1/2 hour.

Put the cup-up shoulder and giblets in a ceramic bowl and pour over the marinade. Marinate, covered, in the refrigerator for 2 - 3 days, turning the meat several times each day.

Remove the meat from the marinade and dry on toweling. Strain and reserve the marinade.

Sprinkle the meat with salt, pepper and cayenne pepper to taste. In a skillet melt the bacon fat and in this brown the meat, slowly on all sides. Sprinkle over with flour, stir and continue to saute until the flour is absorbed and turns light brown. Add the strained marinade and simmer, covered until the meat is tender (45 - 60 minutes). Correct the seasoning, simmer for 5 minutes longer and serve hot. Serves 6.

I think it's dumb to come over here. the only reason is to get our money and jobs.

Nice to see this thread revived. I always wondered why Dave, who always seems to have a comeback for anything negative about the current Mexican Invasion of the United States of America, never answered my last post here (#19) back in May.

Ok in the first place th illegal immigrants come here not to harm anybody they come here to work. And if the jobs were occupied in the first place then they wouldnt be able to get them. i am a U.S. citizen with an illegal parent and let me tell you that i could never be more proud of my parent. so yeah there are alot of unemployed citizens. why? exactly because they really dont want to work. because the illegal immigrants keep finding new jobs every day so if the citizens really wanted that job they would get it because they have a better advantage over us they are legal. so what do you guys have to say about that? exactly nothing because i beleive to have alot of sense and arent taking anybody's side because i acctually do believe that they would have a better life here in the us if they were here legally. but you know what sometimes you just have to do things that are illegal yet they dont really harm anybody.

L.A. it doesn't matter a rat's ass WHY anybody comes here illegally; the point is, THEY ARE ILLEGAL. They're here without permission and in violation of US laws. Reasons have nothing to do with it, and are NO EXCUSE. You have no reason to be proud of your lawbreaking parents, if they're illegal; they're just as much scum as if they were out holding up banks, because they're still STEALING from legit citizens of the US, using publically funded facilities & services, and NOT paying social security, unemployment, or other withholding taxes - for which sales taxes are NOT a substitute. So by being here illegally, they're thieves, lawbreakers - and so are YOU, for that matter, the spawn of a pair of illegals, usurping a place in US public schools & draining US public funding for kids who are here legally, whose parents did care enough for the law & respect for this country to do it the right way. You ought to hang yourself in shame. After shooting them. Hopefully the Minutemen will get you all.

wow people in America say to be educated people no effence but where is you education? people are saying that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes well news falash we do and over 40% of it go to social securuty and medicare. so why dont you get informed i'm sure you guys know how to use the internet i mean since you guys are soo educated.

Each year millions of illegal immigrants have been forcing their selves threw the U.S. knowing the consequences of their actions. The U.S. government has made so many efforts to putting a stop to border jumping, while jobs, public funds, education, and benefits are being taking away from the law abiding citizens of America.

A lot of people are misinformed about the words "illegal immigrants." Coming to America to become a citizen is a right, a right that any one as an immigrant has. Disregarding the law of the land, and taking illegal actions is the issue at hand. If any one is willing to break the law to get here, their most likely willing to break the law to get what they want.

Having a comprehensive program to end illegal immigration is what Americans need. Deterrence, apprehension, and removal are what need to be strengthen by our government. Teddy Roosevelt, a famous president once said "We can have no "50-50" allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all." Who would have ever thought that being "the land of the free," would come with consequences?

Majority of Illegal immigrants that come to America are here for half a year in the United States and home in Mexico living like kings and queens till the season change. To be apart of something means going threw the rules and regulations like any one else. There is no reason to take advantage of something that's not yours to begin with.

ok so i read the blog and i read several comments. I am very opinionated on this topic. Ok if your an illegal immigrant or your parents are, get out of here. You already broke a law by coming here, who's to saw you won't do it again, that you "had" to to survive, to make a better life? Someone said in a commen that they could not have been more proud of her parent even though she is an illegal immigrant. Wait, y are you proud again?

If your going to be an immigrant you have to 1.) learn our language. 2.)do it legally 3.)Pay some gosh darn taxes. I'm annoyed that people come over here and expect to be an american. Just stay in your country, whether your from Mexico or Candiana or anywhere else. Just stay on your side and we'll stay on ours. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you have to do something illegal to change it.

i agree with sara, if your gonna come to my country you have to learn my language. ENGLISH!!! If i moved to ur country i would have to learn your language!!! your gov. wouldn't bend over backwards and write stop in my language cuz i complained that i didn't know what a stop sign meant cuz i couldnt read spanish!!! or like that protesting day when all the illegals came out and didn't go to work and protested that they were illegal!!! wtf is that! if i was ins id have been out there deporting them all, they were all clearly illegals. id hae been walking through the crowd saying "let me see ur green card"!!! if they have such a problem with there country, why don't they fix it. ya it'll take time and effort and itll be harder then sittin on a couch in america collecting welfare but you kno wut, mayb, just maybe there counrty wuldn't be so bad a place and they could stay there and speak there spanish. im lucky i live in a part of the counrtry where there is virtually no diversity and i don't really have to deal with illegals, but i still hate them. if ur illegal get out of my country!!! ull have to sooner or later!!!

1. The comment that everyone came to this country illegally because it was a invation on the indians. North America was not a country then, it was a continant. Did not become a country until 1777. And once it became a solvrine country than those that live within the boarders have the right to say when others may enter.
2. I, as many still believe in the motto, of give us your tired and poor, however when the migration to this country is twelve million strong and climbing, it is no longer migration it is called invasion.
3. The fact is taxes paid by the illegals here does not cover the cost of the social services that the illegals are absorbing.

illegal immigrants should stay wit us...pyche!!

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS SHOULD STAY WITH US WHY ALWAYS PICK ON THE MEXICANS THEY ARE HONEST BUT YOU AMERICANS JUDGE THEM BY THEIR COLOR AND THE WAY THEY LOOK YOU SHOULD LET THEM STAY HERE AND THEY HELPS US WITH ALOT OF THINGS DONT JUDGE THEM BECAUSE THEIR COLOR OR THE WAY THEY LOOK YOU SHOULD GET TO KNOW WAY BETTER IN THE INSIDE SOO YOU SHOULD LET THEM STAY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IF YOU DONT WELL PROBABLY THE MEXICANS WONT LET YOU GO VISIT MEXICO AND I THIUGHT IT WAS A FREEEEEEE COUBTRY TEA RITE

NO we dont pick on the mexicans becuase of their color. that is the most ridicules statement I have ever heard. They have snuk into America and are abusing our systems while at the same time thumbing their noses at us. If you want to live here than do it legally,And stop tring to find loop holes in our goverment to get what you want! And for those of you who dont know a thing about history why not google Feb.2 1848 the guadalupe hildago treaty. you will see that America bought this land from the corrupt mexican goverment. And for those of you that think that you will take this land from Americans "DREAM ON" Keep pushing Americans and we will see how long they will stand for that. Just becuase our govement wont stand up for America doesnt mean that the American people wont.

Give chance and opportunity to these illegal immigrants in this country.

this article is not actually explaining why illegal immigrants come here from other countries the cheap labor is the illegal immigrants doing the work

Considering that most illegals end up working long hard hours at dangerous or hideously horrific work, under the most adverse conditions, and further are subject to criminal depredations by 'coyotes' & rival traffickers in human cargo who hold them for ransom or even put them into virtual slavery as labor or prostitution (which is an increasing danger in the US by various criminal elements), and knowing the generic xenophobia that Americans in general display, I wonder that anyone would be stupid enough to come here illegally.

A previous commenter made a good point: if conditions are bad in your country, skipping out & trying to sneak into another country is not the answer. You need to stay & insist that those in power DO something to fix the problem. Otherwise you merely end up transporting the problem with you, mainly because it's a fact that most illegals are of the least educated, poorest, & most unskilled class, which means that in the new country they'll have exactly the same problems, plus the disadvantage of being illegal, not speaking/reading the language - IF they can read at all, etc. etc. Running away never solves anything, I was told.

This is a super-simplistic view and article. It is not 101 as stated. There are lots of groups that talk about this where you can learn more.

This guy is a programmer. The HB1 visa that is freely given to Indians and other groups has wrecked havoc on our own men and women here who cannot

I agree with comment #33. Americans do not pick on Mexicans for their color or the way they look. We just don't want illegal immigrants here because they are breaking the law. We don't want criminals in our country. Comment #32 says that they thought America was a free country. Well, it is. However, we do have laws here, and we expect every human living here to follow them- even illegal immigrants. That would mean STAY OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE OR COME LEGALLY. If they would like to come to America legally, I definitely believe we should let them pretty much no matter what. But if they choose to sneak pass the borders, KICK THEM OUT. They have the opportunity to become a legal American citizen, why blow that chance and come here illegally? Why risk the chance of being kicked out?

COME TO THE FRONT DOOR DONT SNEEK THROUGHT THE BACK. DIDNT YOUR MOTHERS TEACH YOU THAT

I think that if everyone would look back at where their family members came from. Everyone would see that all of their family members came here illegaly and took over the land the Indians lived in. We have not taken over anyones land, all we are doing is working jobs that Americans do not want to do because they don't like getting paid less then $10 an hour. Well, as for facts the fact are that immigrants do pay taxes,how many Mexicans do you see going bankrupted, there not on welfare because like everyone said they don't have SS cards, Mexicans don't even go to the doctor offices to be seen, how many Mexicans do you see havving their homes forclosed. People need to think of where they came from before they talk.

shoot them as they come over the wall

U know what u all can go to hell u all r jelouse of us Mexican. The only person that is going to get shot is u SDSD

ok i have sat here and read this whole blog, and personaly, i agree with most of you, if people want to be in america, they should do it the right way, and believe me gabby, no one is jelouse of the frikin mexicans come on were americans, we have respect for our selves and wont work for less than 5$ what is there to be jelous of people who have messed up there own country so bad they need to sneek into someone elses, should we be jelous of someone steeling our money and our childrens education, should we americans be jelous of people killing themselves to get away from a mess they created and should we be jelouse that someone is so much better than us that they would undercut them selves, put themselves to shame and embarass there children? this is what we are jelouse of? please tell me because i can feel the jelousy building in me right now of how bad i wish i was a mexican so i could be the one to go and steel from someone else and invade there home and make demands on there country. i think shooting them all as they come over the wall is a pretty good idea, than there would be no reason for illegal immigrants! Mexico would not like it to much if americans were going over and steeling the few jobs they have or taking there money, killing there familys, raping there woman, thats what a majority of them are doing here not to mention the people they are killing becase they cant seem to restrain themselves from a car after getting drunk. If all you want is our money woman and booze go the **** home.i can understand letting a few of them stay if they have a good enough reason, or actually did come over to better themselves, but if thats what they were really intending, than they would have done that legally. they say they just want to be part of american than do it legally, you dont want to be part of america, you want to be part of our money, find a way to make your own money and stop steeling ours, your government has perfectley enough money to support its econamy, go harras them, stop harrasing us for something we dont owe to you!!!!!!!!

You know, i kinda agree. As an immigrant myself from not other than mexico, sometimes i think the best thing for my family to have done was stuck it out over there, if its possible here then its possible there. Its hard making a living here too you know, i see all these immigrant homeless in my neighborhood pissed drunk all day giving my poeple a bad reputation! Its a beautiful idea, that america has work for everyone... but its only a short temp solution, in the long wrong it hust both the country or immigration and the new one to which they immigrate. What i think should happen is that access to america should be denide for a while, then all the people suffering in their native country wont have an escape, and maybe finally they'll do something to solve the problem!! The poor poeple dont even try to fight for improvement you know, i mean, its hard to believe comming from like anyone but ... Ok... i come from a government family in a poor country, i can tell you that there is no unity amongs the people, in a way i think its their fault then suffer so much, they need to be put in a situation where they have to start a revolution or whatever is nessessary to get what they want/need.
wah.. what was i even talking about? oh, i like your post.

As an immigrant i'll say that yes, we do pay taxes!!! I do have a legal social security card, some do some dont. why not come here legally? Because it takes more years than you can count. Imigration serviices cost thousands, i'm talking 30 or something (speaking from personal experience) The process is slow and usually is just there to take a lot of your money, money you dont have, and then deny you, so why bother with it? still some do. My family has been in the process for ... almost 9 years, and nothing. Clean records, ok jobs, been here more that 20 years and still in the end we can be denied. America is our home by the time the sesult are out.
"What corporate America does to keep prices low is ultimately done to the benefit of the American consumer." no, this is wrong, its to the benefit running the company that it help, helps the already rich and hurt the already poor.
to daves "Because all of the statistics show that it's not happening." i dont know what stats your using but you probably should check their sources, there so much bias in most of the article i've read about economics, specially concerning poverty and immigration.
-and lots american dont work because they dont want to again, from experiance
-laws are broken, not all laws are good anyways and some that should exist dont, immigration being illigal i dont think its reason enough to make a big deal about, it has to be more than that
-yes, i'm also surprised about how bad the american aducation is, most people are so ignorant, elementaryto high school education is one of the worse in the world, once you get to college it evens out (more in comparison to eaurope nations)
-"ok so i read the blog and i read several comments. I am very opinionated on this topic. Ok if your an illegal immigrant or your parents are, get out of here. You already broke a law by coming here," ok, your just stupid, its stupid expecting this to happen or making any sense to the immigrants already here. Its like telling african american to go back to africa (yes i still hear that going around, how absurd)
-"i agree with sara, if your gonna come to my country you have to learn my language. ENGLISH!!!" I know my language (spanish and english) and several others, this comes to show how self centered many americans are, should i say it or :S .. ok, here it goes, people who say shit like this are usually red neck racist thinkin they the shit, when they sure as fuck aint
-and why the hell do american make such a big deal about immigration being illegal, it sure as fuck wasnt illegal when they selves came over here taking over the natives homes and resources!
-and dont get back giving me shit about being racist too, i'm too mixed for that, belive it or not, mexico is filled with immigrants from a bunch of other countries too, i concider myself american, i've only lived here 99% percent of my life, being greek, african, spanish and native mexican i think gives one a broader perpective that many full americans dont understand, and therefore care only about themselves as individuals more than they should
-"WHY ALWAYS PICK ON THE MEXICANS THEY ARE HONEST BUT YOU AMERICANS JUDGE THEM BY THEIR COLOR AND THE WAY THEY LOOK" again, this is so true, most mexicans are short, brown and fat. Not. please peole stop stereotyping them like this! I look more white than the mayority of american, and i'm talking russian white, dont judge!!!
-"Americans do not pick on Mexicans for their color or the way they look. We just don't want illegal immigrants" i think they do, for most of my jobs competing with very stereotipical looking immigrant i win
-"people who have messed up there own country" they havent messed up their country, the poeple who run it have messed up the people, its really complicated
-boguscrap, thats just what you are, you've distorted reality to fit your needs far too much "i think shooting them all as they come over the wall is a pretty good idea," yeah, ur mental

overall what i'm hearing is the poor hating on the poor, looool!!!! what needs to be done is both societies need to fix their government, how, its complicated and i'd have to write about 3 times as much as i've got so far.

To you bogusCrap You tell me how many Mexicans are on the news, newspapers, or anything else like this acused of raping someone or murdering someone. Compared to the amount of Americans I say not much. Mexicans do not come into this country the rape your women or hurt your children. I would have to say that there are more Americans who do these type of things. And as for drunks traffic violations ok I hear you. But that still does not give you the right to judge us the way you do. And as for "shot them all" being a good Idea yeah I would have to agree you are mental.

why cant we just give them a licence for here i mean there going to come back agian any way

Fuck you! I mean, im not illigal, but i think its unfair cause of gay ass george bush who fucked you!

we should allow immigrants to our country because they just wanna work like mi primo panchito orale
and they just want a better life for their family. Claro que si !! mexico cabrones// latinos ! echale guey

Logtar you are the one with the half researched argument. Illegal Immigrants do pay taxes including Social Security Taxes, medicare, and others. They are not here to take away anyones job, but to simply earn money for themselves and their family. These are not jobs that are being taken away from Americans, they are jobs that citizens are just to lazy to do.

God!! just to read all these i have a headache!!
First, good job Dave!!
Second: Illegals DO PAY TAXES, i know two wrongs don't make a right, but if you really want everybody to pay taxes, why don't they pass the FAIR TAX PROGRAM?? this would take taxes out of paychecks and put it into the everyday products we buy, that way illegals would also pay taxes, right? since everybody is a consumer. Illegals don't benefit from social Security!! they don't have SS cards!!! duh!!
Millions of illegals have false documents just to get a job, and they are taken taxes out of their checks for services, services that they will never use, because of lack of documents; at the end of the year they are elligible for money back, but they don't get it, the gov't keeps it, but of course, nobody knows of this.
Third: To all these people that say their ancestors came here legally....there was virtually no immigration reforms back then!! you could just pack your stuff, come here, and you became legal as soon as you set foot in this country!
Wake up!! Who said that illegals just have kids to stay here legally??? haha, that's really stupid. so are you saying that illegals don't have the right to have kids??
Immigrants might hurt the economy, but they also help; cheap labor means cheap products, comsumer gets benfited from this...and who's the comsumer?? AMERICANS!!!!

If you were poor, your family hasn't eat in days, you can't find a job...what would you do??...Wouldn't you do anything, even cross a border illegaly risking your life on the way, just to guarantee the welfare of your family??
Think about it...more than illegals, they are Humans!!! just like you. Think about your kids, think about your wife, husband, etc

To BogusCrap:
I think we should just shot you. You should respect those Mexicans...they left everything they know to come here, once here, they take any opportunity they have to work, they start from having zero, and a lot of them get to have much more than you have, not by stealing your jobs, but rather by working hard, by earning everything they own, and i think that what makes you mad. If you're not jealous, why are you talking like that, you're just full of, as you describe yourself, full of CRAP.
Mexicans, and ALL SPANISH, are honest people. there are some that are criminals, like there is black, white, asian criminals. but the majority don't come here to rape as you say...trust me, they didn't risk their lifes to do that.
Educate yourself, don't base your opinion on what you hear, which most of it are bias news paid by racist poeple.
You can use some going to a spanish community, observe them, talk to them (they do try to speak english you moron)commute with them, you'll learn a whole new perspective.

Language: "if your gonna come to my country you have to learn my language. ENGLISH!!! If i moved to ur country i would have to learn your language!!! your gov. wouldn't bend over backwards and write stop in my language cuz i complained that i didn't know what a stop sign meant cuz i couldnt read spanish!!! "

This is bullshit. I've gone to Mexico several times, i love their hospitality. and guess what? they spoke english to me!! There was always somebody who would be happily willing to translate. My hotel had signs in English all over the place!! My husband is working over there right now, and every single document he had to sign or read was in English!!

"im lucky i live in a part of the counrtry where there is virtually no diversity and i don't really have to deal with illegals, but i still hate them. if ur illegal get out of my country!!! ull have to sooner or later!!!" illegal hater

You're racist and you are not afraid to say it...i pitty you. illegals are not sitting on a counch collecting walfare as you say, they are working. You hate them because they are better than you (not you americans, i mean better than the person that said this). Life example: When i was a teenager, i worked in a restaurant, we had 3 Mexicans working there, i was completly sure they were illegals; after 3 years of working there, they never called in sick, always show up on time, and while everybody complained, they just kept working. That's why employers rather hire a low-skilled spanish than a low-skilled american.
please don't hate...sooner or later you will need help from one. Thanks to them the groceries and vegetables you buy are so cheap, thanks to them you're not paying ridiculous prices.

I think illegal immigrants should stay in USA because they are hard workers that just come to live a better life I HOPE they stay in the USA.

Without illegal's who would fold my taco, roll my burrito and grow hot peppers.

Illegal Immigrants are the source for Usa. With out them we wouln't be Usa. If we did not have Illegal Immigrant we would be poor Usa of America. I suggest that Illegal Immigrant should stay in America and have the right to vote,work without the greencard because they are hard workers. They shouln't be deported to their country because they are humans just wanting a better life. They need to be equal as us the white people. I HOPE EVERYTHING STOPS WITH THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND LET THEM STAY IN AMERICA GOD BLESS EVERY SINGLE PERSON LOKING FOR A BETTER JOB OR BETTER DREAMS AND PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

MAN I HOPE ILLGEGAL IMMIGRANT STAY IN THE USA.

MAN I HOPE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS STAY IN THE USA TO.

God Bless the world and that their ain't no racism with the illegal immigrants let them stay in the Usa they are just trying to live their dreams.They don't sell drugs some people are just telling lies about the illegal immigrants.
GOD BLESS THE WORLD!!!

My country was founded on illegal immigrants. Well, to be more precise: illegal in the sense that the British courts thought that what they'd been doing was illegal.

If they hadn't, I might now be a soccer hooligan.

#55:

SR! You're back. How did those crawdads work out for you?

I dunno, Doc.

If you're not hijacking threads, you're stirring up the peasants.

You like making trouble, don't you?

I'm just filling in while moonraven is in flight and thus incommunicado...

And doing a good job, too! :>)

Quote
#9 -- May 4, 2006 @ 14:27PM -- unknown [URL]

so wat if we are immigrants. you ask we are taking youre jobs?well is a simmple answer we do it because americans aren't and we need the money so why not take it someone has to the job!!!!!
#10 -- May 4, 2006 @ 14:34PM -- jenny

we are not trying to take over america we can if we wanted but we are just trying to be PART of it.if you think we are taking our jobs[americans]then why didn't you do it before we came!!!!!!!!!!this is suppose to be a country of FREEDOM let me tell you americans you have FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear person that wrote this I will like to say that immigrantes come for a better life. Also get your facts strait illegal immigrants do pay taxis.
Every american came illegal because they inveded indian terretory.

#34 -- February 4, 2007 @ 11:52AM -- Larry

Give chance and opportunity to these illegal immigrants in this country.

You guys know how stupid you sound? Gtfo. You wanna come to my country? Then pay taxes and learn english.

I like this artical it's great but I say people should come here legal not lllegal...

it doesnt matter what we want. its not goin to stop it

It is a shame to see what his country has turned into. There is more ignorant Americans then immigrants.

I respect the post and the message behind it everyone is entitled to speak there minds its a part of freedom of speech if I recall.

The many definitions of immigrant:
1. a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence
2. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.

ignorant Americans, instead of focusing on Mexicans why not focus on other dangers to American's. If immigrants are such a big deal then you have the power to vote for the right leaders that will do something about it, crying and moaning don't get rid of the millions of immigrant that make up this country and just because Mexico is right next door, doesn't give you the right to generalize every other Hispanic or any other immigrant for that matter. If such a big deal, then stop hiring immigrant at fast for restaurants, cleaning services, landscaping services, and every other crappy job out there that so called Africans aren't willing to do. The same ignorant people saying away with the immigrants are the same people asking immigrants for a good price in the services they may offer or willing to hire them for $6.50 an hour. The only people at fault here are Americans for letting this get out of control. Ever since 9/11 anyone that doesn't have blond hair, blue eyes are being targeted as terrorist, and the only crime immigrant have committed is come here illegally and seeking a life they could only dream of. And as far as not paying tax's, do you not realize how much money immigrant spend on our products for the love of God I have yet to see any onces life change because of Juan and Jose didn't pay tax's for a hot dog. I frown upon what ignorance this country has, you talk about Mexicans bring nothing, but drugs and gangs to the states. How about the millions of dollars in drugs your government brings into the streets each day, and how Americans redeem their selfs? Simply by blaming others for your actions.

To sum up your ignorance, stop paying us for cutting your grass, doing your nails, making your food, and cleaning your homes. If Americans are that worried about immigrant not paying tax's that stop paying us in the 1st place.

P.S. You have a war to win, (or rather oil to collect and excuses to make) Stop judging immigrants for looking for a better way of living, and go invade more country's for there oil, gas, and resources. Hmm jee wouldn't that make our troops immigrants? OH WAIT..we are the world leaders so I guess we can make up rules along the way. I completely forget it is fine to invade other countries kill there people, take there stuff, and use excuse like "we are looking for bombs". Good job America it has been years since 9/11 and how many bombs have you found???

It is a shame to see what his country has turned into. There is more ignorant Americans then immigrants.

I respect the post and the message behind it everyone is entitled to speak there minds its a part of freedom of speech if I recall.

The many definitions of immigrant:
1. a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence
2. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.

ignorant Americans, instead of focusing on Mexicans why not focus on other dangers to American's. If immigrants are such a big deal then you have the power to vote for the right leaders that will do something about it, crying and moaning don't get rid of the millions of immigrant that make up this country and just because Mexico is right next door, doesn't give you the right to generalize every other Hispanic or any other immigrant for that matter. If such a big deal, then stop hiring immigrant at fast for restaurants, cleaning services, landscaping services, and every other crappy job out there that so called Africans aren't willing to do. The same ignorant people saying away with the immigrants are the same people asking immigrants for a good price in the services they may offer or willing to hire them for $6.50 an hour. The only people at fault here are Americans for letting this get out of control. Ever since 9/11 anyone that doesn't have blond hair, blue eyes are being targeted as terrorist, and the only crime immigrant have committed is come here illegally and seeking a life they could only dream of. And as far as not paying tax's, do you not realize how much money immigrant spend on our products for the love of God I have yet to see any onces life change because of Juan and Jose didn't pay tax's for a hot dog. I frown upon what ignorance this country has, you talk about Mexicans bring nothing, but drugs and gangs to the states. How about the millions of dollars in drugs your government brings into the streets each day, and how Americans redeem their selfs? Simply by blaming others for your actions.

To sum up your ignorance, stop paying us for cutting your grass, doing your nails, making your food, and cleaning your homes. If Americans are that worried about immigrant not paying tax's that stop paying us in the 1st place.

P.S. You have a war to win, (or rather oil to collect and excuses to make) Stop judging immigrants for looking for a better way of living, and go invade more country's for there oil, gas, and resources. Hmm jee wouldn't that make our troops immigrants? OH WAIT..we are the world leaders so I guess we can make up rules along the way. I completely forget it is fine to invade other countries kill there people, take there stuff, and use excuse like "we are looking for bombs". Good job America it has been years since 9/11 and how many bombs have you found???

all you little mexicans need to stop tryin to take over america. yall need to learn how to get some money and come here legally. you trying to start crap with us when we didnt do anything and your making us learn spanish when this is freakin america why dont you learn english?? i dont have anything against mexicans but you need to go back to your own country and quit trying to jack on america beacuse you just mad that aint one of us.

NO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT LITTLE MEXCIAN UP THERE THATS SAYING THAT HES GOING TO SHOOT AMERICANS THEN HE BETTER BRING IT. HES JUST HATIN ON US AMERICANS. HE SHOULDNT BE TALKING CUS HES THE ONE COMING IN ILLEGALY SCARED OF BEING SHOT SO HE NEEDS TO STFU ABOUT SHOTTING SOME AMERICANS AND GO BACK TO HIS OWN FREAKIN COUNTRY AND STOP TRYING TO START MESS IN AMERICA CUS YOU KNOW WHAT WE ARE A FREE COUNTRY AND YOUR JUST JEALOUS SO YOU BETTA FALL BACK

to Kendall: you call your self an American? lol. judging by the way carry your self it seems like your the one who needs to take English class, and whats wrong with learning Spanish? live all little, learn something new and adept your self to the people around you. You could benefit from learning Spanish in so many ways, instead showing hate maybe you should focus on the good things "Hispanic's" bring to America. While you take the time to go back to school and grow up a little, take some history classes, and take the time to look at the map of the world, if you notice, there is more then 10 more Spanish speaking countries, so don't label every Hispanic as a Mexican. You wouldn't like others to label Americans as, rednecks or crackers, or people who invade other countries for there resources now would you? Mexicans are just doing to America what Americans have done to other countries in the past. Going to another lands and taking what is not theres. And on a personal note, Hispanics, African's, Asian's, Europeans, and all the other places out there, have to earn there rights in America, and learn the right to become an American, unlike you Kendall, you where born with those rights, so at least they know what it is to become an American and die an American, which is more what I can say for you. So please, go wave your American flag made in china and pick on more "Mexicans" with your childish comments.

I am really angry about Americans flooding into Australia now that the greenback has fallen, in the hope that they can get a better life.

Stay where you are. This is God's Own Country, and we don't need no Yanks messin' the place up.

You come here taking jobs away from decent, hard-working Australians, trying to turn us all into wowsers and God-botherers! Stay in America and try to make a better life for yourselves there!

This is OUR country.

And try to learn Australian before you come (if you must come). As a taxpayer, I'm really angry that every government department both state and federal is now operating in English (as well as Australian) and two dozen other #@$^&^*# languages. I don't want my country to be bilingual (or multi-lingual).

Australian is the language of Australia, not English! Stay in America if you can't be bothered.

It's a joke and I don't see why people like me should pay taxes to support Americans who weren't born here and weren't invited here.

please stop judging mexicans they are more honest then most white people and they work harder too. if america didnt have any immigrants they would be lost, because no american can do the jobs that immigrants can do

I want to know what year/when did illegal immigration began? can someone answer me this question? thank you

Well some of this is true but im hispanic and i know what it feels like to be discriminatd against just because of my race. and the bad thing is that in legal i was BORN HERE!!! and what you said about ignoring all the papers that come from illgal people is HORIBBLE!! you need to think about your going to make people feel when you say these things!

YOU americans live by the government "Deny all government services to anyone who is not in the country legally",from the article above,well aren't you greedy! immigrants come here to work and by the way not only immigrants and people in mexico do drugs that problem is global so shut the ___ up racist.EVERYONE has a mind of there own so dont judge 1 bad influence for all."please stop judging mexicans they are more honest then most white people and they work harder too. if america didnt have any immigrants they would be lost, because no american can do the jobs that immigrants can do"
THANK YOU
"Also get your facts strait illegal immigrants do pay taxis."
THANK YOU, TOO
JAY thank you you are 1 of a million who has common sense i love u man.

u sick freak ur an immmigrant to u know u physco path bitch wtf is wwrong with you dont hate the immigrants. Who first entered the U.S not u or ur race the Native AMericans did which u arent. Stop discriminating immigrants they just want a better life and money to buy food and shelter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

u b**** ur an immmigrant to u know u ugh wtf is wwrong with you dont hate the immigrants. Who first entered the U.S not u or ur race the Native AMericans did which u arent. Stop discriminating immigrants they just want a better life and money to buy food and shelter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I grew up in a small New England town that had many recent immigrants. They came from Greece, Italy, Poland, Austria, France, Holland, Germany, Ireland, and other countries.

They came with different customs and languages. They also came legally.

They were intent on putting aside their former customs and languages and were intent on learning the common language and they did.

Lack of proficiency in the common language doesn't work.

Illegal immigrants do NOT come to this country to "help out." They come here with the intention of committing crimes, marching in our streets with THEIR flags, tearing apart classrooms, and eventually tearing apart our society so they can create their own MECHA society. I'm not fooled by the crap propaganda that "illegal immigrants want to come here to make a better life and educate their kids." That's BS. 2008 will be exciting because the backlash against these CRIMINALS will continue.

All I know is, we don't want no more yanks comin' to Australia as immigrants, especially if they haven't learned Australian. You come over here, speaking English, taking away our jobs - well, stay over there and don't immigrate here ... this is OUR country.

And if you MUST come ... then please learn to speak the language first. There are plenty of Australian as a Second Language options available.

And learn to DRINK PROPER BEER.

fuck all u racists!!!!!!!

u white people dont know why we are here so u should just leave us alone and mind ur own buisness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that all of this crap, Mexicans are the ones that help our economy leap foward now that deportation started our dreams have started to brake down, we to want to go to college and study and get our degree,now alot of mexican, african americans, asians young students that are in high school, elementary, and maybe college are leaving the country of liberty, and freedom because of this crap,I have studied from the year of 2007 the economic process has dropped a lot because a lot of Illegal immigrants that worked in the "united" "States"of america are being deported

"I too have a dream" " that all mexicans, african americans, asians europeans, and more will all live in peace" "with no racism, no discrimination that we are now getting cause we are illegal aliens,but we made what is america now" "like Ghandi, and Martin, Luther, King did, resolve things with no violence, kind negotiation to resolve this dilema" "cause I too Have dream, and it looks like that dream is coming to an end"

WE ARE AMERICANS, WE ARE AMERICA

I don't think the majority of the people that opposes illegal immigration have a problem with people from Mexico or other countries. They oppose to people coming to this country when they don't have any intention to assimilate into the American culture. It is a very natural reaction to defend your country when you notice that many of illegal aliens don't have any intention to assimilate the culture or learn the language. I have personally witness some cases when well intentioned Anglos have tried to do everything to help some Mexicans to learn English and to know more about this country and yet they still refuse.

I think illegal immigrants should stay in USA because they are hard workers that just come to live a better life I HOPE they stay in the USA get your facts right too before you write anything. if you want to go maxico get the language straight if you go to mexico if you want illegal immigrants too get it straight here. I am sure some of you like to go to mexico but you know what if you are racist to bad cause you might as well get kicked OUT!

Stupid Idiots, why the fuck do you say that illigals come here only to take your money and your jobs if you lazy bastards won't even do them yourself, if we have to pay taxes we'll pay them, WE LATINOS do the job you fuckers won't do, because you are all lazy fuckers

The large immigration we have experienced, including those without papers, has culturally enriched this country enormously. They have also strengthened the working class.

The government should stop harassing them and provide work documents for all that are here. No deportations.

Why don't u go to Iran U stupid beach!!!!!!!!!!

Im a Mexican and i think Illegal immigration wouldn't be a problem just because we need money its a problem because you took our states and they are the biggest states in the entire Nation. we need money but we also want our land back and if we dont get it we will continue to come llegaly or illegaly so get used to it you bastard.

Ricky,

"Why don't u go to Iran U stupid beach!!!!!!!!!!"

Well, ...aren't you the rational one.

Les

After living for a while in the U.S. I learned to DESPISE mexicans of all types.They have very high arrogant sense of entitlement.They are the scam of the world.Yuk..

That's the trouble with these anti-immigrationists. They always generalize.

why do you only consider mexicans as Illegal immigrants? what about canadians, europeans, and people from south america? its just not mexicans!

Illegal people come with no intentions of stealing jobs but they come to do jobs that no one else will do. Illegal people are underpaid and work in harsh conditions. If anyone is willing to do their jobs give it a shot but they probably would not last. I am for and against immigration but before you call anyone racist get your facts straight. Learn to spell too. 8 )
Once I get my facts straight, I will comment more because I have much to say on this subject.

Senator John McCain needs immigrants so the US has more fresh bodies to send over to the Middle East meat grinder. It's Max Boot's idea. He's one of Senator John McCain's foreign policy advisers.

My biggest objection to Open Borders immigration isn't so much that I don't want more brown people living in my country. I don't want more brown people dying in Iraq.

Irene, we don't need immigration reform to send brown folks off to war. We've had a policy of accepting Mexicans and other foreign nationals seeking citizenship into the military for years, rewarding them with citizenship for their service. No one is proposing changing that program regardless of what general course we take on immigration.

Dave

"My biggest objection to Open Borders immigration isn't so much that I don't want more brown people living in my country."

Well, of course not.

It was their country first.

RE: Illegal people come with no intentions of stealing jobs but they come to do jobs that no one else will do.

It is might be more accurate to say that "they come to do jobs that no one else will do" at the wages currently paid. But even this is not enough. I know of small restaurants in Southern California that employ illegal immigrants as cooks, busboys, cashiers and receptionists because they can under-pay them and also skimp on employment and worker compensation taxes. These are hardly jobs that no one wants to do.

Illegal immigrants in the construction industry are paid very competitive wages, but still are paid less than legal workers.

RE: It was their country first.

Not even. But if you want to play "who's on first," Mexico should be returned to the Maya, Yucatecos, and other indigenous groups. No one who speaks Spanish, is a Christian, or has a European Y-chromosome could be considered as being automatically entitled to a share of the country.

And the Maya were what color? Blue?

RE: And the Maya were what color? Blue?

What does color have to do with anything? If you want to play who's on first games, Spain and France should be returned to the Basques, who are the same color as, but genetically distinct from the other residents of those countries.

The Maya involved in The Caste War of Yucatán (1847-1901), for example, never particularly considered themselves to be Mexican.

Or any of the other nations.

BTW, "Yucatecos" were a subgroup of the Maya who spoke the Yucatec language. Today, the word refers to anyone who lives in Yucatán, indigenous Maya or European white.

Also, speaking Spanish does not mean that any given Mexican is not a pure blooded indígena; only a few very isolated groups don't speak Spanish these days.

The same goes for being Christian.

Is a full-blooded Cherokee who speaks English and is a also a Baptist or Catholic any less of a Cherokee?

RE: Today, the word refers to anyone who lives in Yucatán, indigenous Maya or European white.

This is not what it means at all to the people I know.

RE: Also, speaking Spanish does not mean that any given Mexican is not a pure blooded indígena; only a few very isolated groups don't speak Spanish these days.

There is no such thing as "pure-blood."

RE: Is a full-blooded Cherokee who speaks English and is a also a Baptist or Catholic any less of a Cherokee?

To some. Of course, we also have the issue of Native Americans disenfranchising tribal members who are of European or African descent, even though they lived as Native Americans for generations.

And one of the most ridiculous things I ever came across on the web was a discussion about "full blooded" Lumbee, even though every reliable source indicates that these people are a mixture of European, African American, and Native American (uber-blonde Heather Locklear is a Lumbee, ironically enough).

So again, "who was here first" games are not especially meaningful, especially with respect to the immigration debate.

Oh yeah, I have never seen that US resident Native Americans are able to freely immigrate to Mexico, which is also particularly hard on illegal immigrants from Guatemala and other countries. Go figure.

I think the idea of a 'pure blood' Cherokee is pretty much of a fictional concept too. The Cherokee practiced adoption and intermarriage with other groups so extensively and for so many years that they run the physical gamut from blond hair and blue eyes to dark skinned negroid, and they mostly have Scotts last names with histories going back 2 centuries or more. If the Cherokee tried to disenfranchise members with European blood they would cease to exist.

Dave

"This is not what it means at all to the people I know."

Be that as it may, it most definitely is what it means to the people who live in the Yucatán (and, for that matter, to the rest of the Mexicans as well). As a Mexican myself, I'm well aware of the contemporary meaning of the word.

"There is no such thing as "pure-blood."

Fine. Parse words to your heart's content, and call it what you like, but it is incontrovertible that a significant portion of the Mexican population is of exclusively indigenous origin, with no European mixed in.

Some, such as certain groups of the Tarahumaras in Northern Mexico have never even seen a Caucasian, let alone interbred with them.

"What does color have to do with anything?"

We were addressing Irene's reference to "brown people", which would include the Maya, as Doc implied.

"Mexico should be returned to the Maya..."

Only a relatively small part of Mexico is inhabited by the Maya. There are far more Maya in Guatemala, including my now-retired secretary, who returned upon retirement.

She, BTW, claims to be "pura Maya" (her words); she certainly looks Mayan, speaks a Mayan dialect, plus Spanish, English, Italian, and French. AND she's a Jehovah's Witness and a US as well as Guatemalan citizen.

So, I guess by your definition, she's not really a Maya, huh?

RE: We were addressing Irene's reference to "brown people", which would include the Maya, as Doc implied.

Actually, we were addressing your ridiculous claim that "brown people" have some special claim to be able to live in the United States because "it was their country first."

RE: Only a relatively small part of Mexico is inhabited by the Maya. There are far more Maya in Guatemala, including my now-retired secretary, who returned upon retirement.

This is irrelevant to the fact that people who want to play "who was here first" games are either inconsistent or ignorant in their considerations of ethnicity and nationhood.

So, for example, by what you admit yourself, Mexico and Guatemala are artificial boundaries which separate the Maya. Shouldn't those nations be abolished and the lands returned to those indigenous peoples?

There are relatively few Native Americans in the United States, but shouldn't all of the country be transferred to them, and shouldn't they then be permitted to decide which "brown people" they will admit as immigrants?

RE: She, BTW, claims to be "pura Maya" (her words); she certainly looks Mayan, speaks a Mayan dialect, plus Spanish, English, Italian, and French. AND she's a Jehovah's Witness and a US as well as Guatemalan citizen.

I have Mexican in-laws who are from Oxaca and whose children certainly appear to have some Indian heritage. And yet their father insists that he and his family tell everyone that they are Spanish.

Relatedly, here in Southern California, there are Native American tribes (casino connected), who are busily re-defining who is a "pure" tribal member, even though their methods and decisions are capricious and largely meaningless.

Self-definition of ethnic purity is absurd.

Responding to this absurdity, this is why I think that if you want to play this game, you give priority to those people who have the least degree of cultural assimilation, and who can demonstrate that they have the least amount of non-indigenous genetic ancestry.

Similarly, shouldn't everyone in the United States who is not indigenous move back to their country of origin? And once there, shouldn't they return to whatever their earliest ancestral homeland was? And shouldn't every country in the world be returned to those who are most closely descended from that region's earliest inhabitants?

Or, should you just retire the nutty idea of "it was theirs first."

According to the dept. of state of Mexico;
75% Mestizo (mixed blood)
12% Ameroindian (indigenous, pure blood)
12% white (European)
1% Afro,Asian,other
Population is around 104,000,000 in Mexico
Illegal immigrants from Mexico in the USA= 13,000,000.(over 10%)
Think about it!

Thanks for all the education!

You're absolutely right, the North American continent no longer belongs to the indigenous peoples, and the USA certainly doesn't belong to the illegals.

Just FYI, my #100 WAS sarcastic, which, clearly, Doc understood.

Just for you, I'll label all my future sarcastic posts so you can see the point, as this is not the only thread in which you missed the humor.

And lighten up; you're much too full of yourself...

RE: Just FYI, my #100 WAS sarcastic, which, clearly, Doc understood.

Most people would simply attempt to clarify the point. Even professional wits.

RE: And lighten up; you're much too full of yourself...

From what I have observed, most of the posters here are full of themselves. Including you. Nor is there anything particularly wrong with it.

Well I read almost the entire comment posting and while some comments were accurate, many weren't. Some illegal aliens do pay SS and income taxes. Usually by using someone else's SS number. The IRS also gives people special id numbers to pay taxes. All illegals pay sales taxes. The problem is that as with most low wage earners, illegals take more out of the system then they contribute. Now take for instance public schooling. American families live one single family to a home, that is the law in most areas. Many times illegals live 3 or more families to a single home. That single home is being taxed (property tax) as if a single family lived there. Thus you have the funds for a single family's children going to the school, with 3 family's worth of children actually attending. Now factor in the English as a second language instruction and the school budget deficit climbs.

Illegals raise the cost of health care and other social services by the same means. They do not pay enough into the system.

Bear Stearns did a research paper in 2005 where they determined the illegal alien population in this country was 20 million or more. The underground cash economy was close to one trillion dollars. The remittances to Mexico is over 20 billion dollars and the second largest revenue stream in Mexico behind oil sales. How is this all possible? They pay few if any taxes as a whole.

Illegals doing the jobs Americans won't do is a catchy phrase that illegal alien supporters, cheap labor advocates and open border ethnocentrists love. That tired worn phrase has been disproved many times over. Americans have always done hard and dirty jobs. They just won't do them for less then a living wage. They won't live in poverty so their employer can get richer. Anyone see the TV show Dirty Jobs?

Not to be forgotten, there is always the "race" card. Why do people normally think of Mexicans when the term illegal alien comes up? That is because over 50% of the illegals in this country are Mexican. Another 25% are from South and Central America. The masses of people are not coming from Canada, Asia or Europe. Besides Hispanic is not a race, neither is Mexican, although there are people that would like them to be so.

Become informed

Damn those low wage earners! While you Americans are at it, you can boot the disabled people, too, and don't forget the elderly. Anyone who can't produce it out, damn it!

To Brad:

Many LEGAL families, take for instance those of the East Indian culture, live multiple families to one home. Asian families do this too. Up in Canada, it's actually normal to see multiple families in one home. Do you propose that Americans simply do not allow multiple families in one home to curb this tax problem? You cannot simply apply one law to illegal immigrants, can you? And wouldn't fixing the system be more important than crucifying one of the many groups responsible for the issues?

"Illegals raise the cost of health care and other social services by the same means. They do not pay enough into the system."

So do disabled people and those on welfare. Most illegals do not use American health care, actually, and they rarely use any social services.

Now, you mention the Bear Stearns study. I happened to have read that and one of the most interesting things that study pointed out was the lineup of companies, big and small, with a HUGE desire to work with illegal immigrants. Car companies want to use the matrícula consular card, which is an identification card used by many illegal immigrants, to help put an illegal immigrant middle class family in a fine new automobile. Big companies surely aren't complaining and they likely pay less taxes than the illegal immigrants do!

Wells Fargo branches in Mexican neighbourhoods are making money hand over fist by working with illegal immigrants. Other companies, like cell phone companies, also accept the matrícula consular cards and work with illegal immigrants openly without taxation. It's like a pipe dream for these companies, really.

So yes, we can say that illegal immigrants put a potentially downward turn on wages in the United States and we can say that they put new demands on schools and other public services. With all of this bad news, it's not hard to treat it like a bit of an invasion. The insanity ensuing from it, while it may seem a little bit funny from way up here in Canada, is actually quite interesting.

But with big consumer companies utilizing illegal immigrants for their own personal growth and ballooning their own overhead as the result of enhanced sales with illegal immigrants, you won't see many corporations complaining (as usual.) Banks, insurers, and other companies are now deciding that the population of millions upon millions of illegals is simply too much to ignore. With the matrícula consular card, illegals are doing business all over the place and companies are lapping it up.

Blue Cross health insurance sells to matrícula consular and Wells Fargo, at last examination, had over half a million matrícula consular-based accounts.

I think it's simply more accurate to look at the combination of things putting a strain on the system and attempt to work within those items. Pointing the finger at one group and claiming to be just is erroneous. Illegal immigration is very clearly a problem, but it's far from the only problem and I'd argue that unregulated spending, unbalanced corporate taxation, the glass ceiling, and various other socio-political issues stand as being far more detrimental on the system than the issue of illegal immigration.

"Most people would simply attempt to clarify the point. Even professional wits."

I prefer not to patronize the audience.

"From what I have observed, most of the posters here are full of themselves. Including you. Nor is there anything particularly wrong with it."

There is when it results in your missing the point.

Clavos - RE: I prefer not to patronize the audience.

If you were a better writer, better informed, and not so insistent about being pointlessly combative, you might begin to understand how wrongheaded your comment here is.

Brad, Jordan Richardson -

I enjoyed reading both your posts. I think that they both speak to the complexity of the issue of illegal immigration.

By the way, here in Southern California, there are examples to be found of American citizens sharing apartments because they cannot handle the high rents by themselves, and cannot afford to buy homes. In some cases, the building managers turn a blind eye to this because otherwise the units would not be rented at all.

But I take your point on the cultural aspects of this as well.

RE: Most illegals do not use American health care, actually, and they rarely use any social services.

I am not certain that this is true, but the point is that those illegal immigrants who DO use the system not only put a strain on it, but also displace citizens and legal residents who must compete for these resources.

There have been recent news stories about Los Angeles County officials floating a plan to close county health clinics. A recent news story noted, "The county clinics and comprehensive health centers get about 400,000 primary visits a year, nearly two-thirds from uninsured patients."

Coverage on this issue can be found here, here and here.

By the way, this dilemma is not just a matter of illegal immigrants over-burdening the system. A bad economy, government budget deficits and a decline in middle class wages makes it harder to sustain the system for anyone's benefit.


[Alec, for everyone's convenience I've turned your references into properly formatted links. It would be helpful if you could also do this in future. If you're not sure how to code HTML links, let us know and we'll point you to a tutorial. (I would link to it here, but we're limited to three links per comment!)

Thanks,
Dr Dreadful
Assistant Comments Editor]

A few interesting things to note.

Illegal immigration's impact on the health care system is no more significant than the impact of the elderly, those with limited income, those on Medicaid, and those with disabilities. At last count, a RAND study demonstrated that about 78% of illegal immigrants have no health care coverage. Of course, these studies are always a little wonky because it's nearly impossible to survey and document all illegal immigrants. I always cringe a little bit when I hear someone using HARD FACTS about illegal immigration seeing as how there's no concrete tracking system, etc. It's with obvious hesitance that I use statistics in my own posts, but sometimes they can be illuminating.

That same RAND study estimated that the cost on the "system" to provide health care to illegal immigrants was around $1.1 billion annually. Immigrants pay a little less than half of that out of pocket, annually. The study also discovered that illegal immigrants tend to visit the hospitals and medical facilities "significantly less" than average legal citizens. This occurs because illegal immigrants tend to be younger and healthier individuals. Older and sicker individuals are less likely to go through the grueling process of crossing the border, etc.

A few qualifiers from the RAND study: children and seniors were not looked at, researchers inflated the cost of services by around 25% to make up for additional costs, researchers found that 22% of workers had insurance which accounted for $362 million of that price tag, 40% of male illegal immigrants had never even had a medical checkup, 23% had never even seen physicians. Among legal citizens, the RAND study found that 21% of male citizens hadn't had a checkup and 10% of male citizens had never seen a physician. The cost on health care is questionable.

The RAND study can be "Googled" for full examination.

I'd like to highlight Alec's last statement in his post and agree with him entirely, by the way. There are multiple issues here and no easy solutions, but there are certain courses of action that can be taken to ensure that the economic strain of illegal immigration can be curbed with a compassionate plan for all human beings.

"If you were a better writer..."

Your failure to understand my meaning reflects more on you than on my writing. Others don't have any trouble understanding what I write.

As for being better informed: you can disagree with my stance on illegal immigration, and that's certainly your right. As a Mexican living in the USA, I KNOW I'm at least as well informed on the issue as you, however, I do have a completely opposite viewpoint to yours.

An opinion is not wrong because you disagree with it, Alec.

BTW, California WAS ours. It was taken from us by force and connivance; but as you look around you, you've probably noticed we're gradually taking it back. Ask Mr. Villaraigosa about that.

One more generation should do it.

By the way, here in Southern California, there are examples to be found of American citizens sharing apartments because they cannot handle the high rents by themselves, and cannot afford to buy homes. In some cases, the building managers turn a blind eye to this because otherwise the units would not be rented at all.

If all this is true, then the glaringly obvious question arises as to why the rents are so damn high in the first place.

Doc,

The most likely answer is that the demand is outstripping the supply.

What's CA's net inmigration (not immigration) rate for the past few years? I suspect it's high; not only because of immigration, but also from folks moving from other states.

Yeah, but if demand is outstripping supply to that degree, why are the apartments not able to be rented except as shares?

Victor, you're lucky! You would have more likely been in technology, industry or manufacturing had you stayed in Northern Italy.

Clavos in #100 This sounds cliche, but not only are some of my friends brow