Well done, everyone. Particularly you, Brewster. You have exposed what I always expected was true: I am the low-rent member of the Mondo world. Fuck.

Fine. You all win. I suck. Bring me some Hungarian comedies.

You know, out here in Hebrew land, the subtitles are usually in Hebrew. So I watch films in English and read the subtitles in Hebrew as I listen to the characters talk. All I can say is that no matter how you try and translate a film into a foreign language - be it dubbing or subtitles, it loses an awful lot. Any positive comment in Rnglish - and there are lots of ways to indicate assent in English - becomes "b'séder" (alright) in Hebrew.

If English loses all that much in Hebrew subtitles, imagine how much the Latin and Aramaic (can you guess the film?) lose in English subtitles?

Don't worry, DJ, the rest of us have known you were low rent for a few months now.

Subtitles make you become a more active viewer, and I do understand the need to sometimes be completely passive when watching a film.

Truth be told, there are tons of really great English language flicks out there to watch. I'll give you a few years to catch up on those before I start throwing Godard at you!

Ruvy my wife is always complaining about the same thing. The subtitles to French films are often completely out of whack.

As a side effect of my cinephilia, everyone I know eventually starts watching subtitled movies. I've watched enough foreign films that I don't miss any visuals -- my eye is practiced enough that I can devour the subtitles whilst still studying the frame for neat visual details. Maybe that's all it takes... practice.

Honestly, how many times do we miss some of the visuals in English language pictures? Whether its leaning over to pick up the soda underneath our chair, or glaring at the idiot on his cell phone in the third row, there are often distractions that keep our eyes off the screen.

Using that as an excuse not to watch a film is pretty lame.

Exceptional work, Sir Brewster. And DJ, i dunno how you have the time to watch the trailers, let alone the flick, with the ammount o' work you got goin on.

the thing about subtitles bein highly unreliable is a good point, also. often times i'll excuse shitty dialogue in, say, a Korean flick that i wouldn't let the inevitable hollywood remake off with. simply because i dunno if it's truly bad dialogue, or just crappy translation.

same troubles when reading foreign books translated into english, in fact. is this prose really this bad, or was the translator just a knob?

I love French and Japanese films. So much more satisfying. Sublime and thought provoking. True art.

Hollywood produces mindless junk, which isn't always a bad thing, but if that's all one watches.....

Good work Sir Brewster, good work. And to the rest - I held off reading all the input until now - I liked it.

Sir DJ - I shall keep you company in the low rent district, though I feel as I can barely pay that lately - but its not such a bad place.

DJ, I know you think you're the only uncultured one here, so I'll add to the pile of cultured thought with the transcript of my favorite subtitled scene, the two Jive guys in Airplane!:

Jiveman #1: Sheeeet, man, that honkey mus' be messin' my old lady got to be runnin' col' upsihd down his head! (Golly, that white fellow should stay away from my wife or I will punch him.)

Jiveman #2: Hey Holm, I can dig it! You know he ain't gonna lay no mo' big rap upon you man! (Yes, he is wrong for doing that.)

Jiveman #1: I say hey sky, s'other say I won say I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. (I knew a man in a similar predicament, and he ended up being sorry.)

Jiveman #2: Knock yourself a pro slick. Gray matter back got perform' us' down I take TCBin, man'. (Don't be naive Arthur. Each of us faces a clear moral choice.)

Jiveman #1: You know wha' they say: See a broad to get that bodiac lay'er down an' smack 'em yack 'em. (Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise.)

Together: Col' got to be! Yo! (How true!)

Together: Sheeeeyit! (Golly!)

Sometimes you can actually learn something watching foreign films. First one I ever saw was "Babette's Feast". Not only did I love the movie, I picked up enough Danish to find out that the subtitles weren't half of the actual dialogue, which was (from what I could work out) much funnier. Also 'discovered' Isaak Dinesen aka Karen Blixen, and thru that a whole bunch of films & books & whatnot. Talk about vastly enriching. Crouching Tiger was another really interesting & exponentially instructive film, as was Eat Drink Man Woman. The Wedding Banquet is another good one to start on, because half of it is in English. To me, what's interesting is the difference between what the subtitles say, and what the actual dialogue says (if you know enough of the language to get the gist of it).

Suss - awesome scene. They've been showing Airplane a few times lately on TV - forget the channel - but I have to stop and watch for a while - Peeeericelss!

ooh, "babette's feast", that was a good one!

It is, and very delicately humorous, too. Love the old guy who keeps exclaiming "Hallelujah!" at inappropriate intervals, and the sweet little old lady who decides she likes wine better than water.

Not sure "The Gods Must Be Crazy" qualifies as foreign language; some if it IS in San. Now, THAT is a cute movie.

Excellent stuff people!

That point about details being lost in the translation is interesting, reminds me especially of Jean-Pierre Jeunet's commentary on the Amelie DVD, where he occasionally mourns the lack of direct translation, highlighting the fallacies in the conversion, but unfortunatly unable to do much more than say "here's a bit that only people who know the French language will fully grasp."

S'pose it's just one of those things that are inevitable when you can't speak the language that the film is in.

you know, i hadn't thought of that when writing up my bit, but the 'untranslatable' issue is one of the reasons i've always thought it was weird to read poetry translated to english.

the original language has its own 'music' that i would imagine is lost.

Wonderful job folks. Great insight about the lame translations that we (must) think are acurate, but as Matthew points out, it just aint so.

I remember watching early Kung Fu flicks and the actor pours out a long paragraph of heated dialog, but the subtitle only says "I hate you, you will die".

I'm thinkin' the actor was flinging fucks and cunts left and right but the translator didn't dare.

Fun topic!

I agree. Films without the whole world of film is just a movie. Where would we be without all the great films mentioned here? The Seven Samurai, The Hidden Fortress, The 400 Blows and a cinema load of other favorite films?

I used to chortle (well, maybe smile) at the people who could not read well enough to enjoy a good film.

Then we moved to Mexico and I began having to read sub-titles in Spanish to those same Japanese, French, Italian and Swedish movies. Hard work! If you read slowly and haltingly much of the fun of the film is lost.

Of course there is also reading the Spanish subtitles to English films. Then you do, indeed, learn how inaccurate the translations are. Sometimes totally reversed, off the wall, or most of the dialog ignored.

But whatever the hassles a great film is still a great film. Nice discussion up above.

My wife always points out the numerous mistranslations in Amelie. There is one so blatant even I laughed with my very limited French.

I watched L'Auberge espagnole from a French DVD a few months back. Talk about confusing. It is in French, Spanish and English. The French had no subtitles so I made out what I could, speaking a very basic form of the language. The spanish had French subtitles and I speak no spanish, but read a little French. The english also had french subtitles but by that point I was so used to struggling with the language I didn't recognize the English being spoken and still tried to translate the French subtitles.

If you don't like reading subtitles, turn them off. Enjoy the language as music, and follow the story by following the expressions and actions of the characters.

If you can't do this, I'm sorry for you.

Mr Low Rent returns... the "I'm sorry for you" crap rings with a kind of superiority and snobbiness that just goes up my ass sideways. That's a lot of bullshit. If someone wants to deny me the title of Movie Buff or Film Aficionado because I thought Hidden Fortress was good but not life changing or because I don't think watching Lithuanian suspense movies or Belgian porn they can be my guest. I am quite certain there are brilliant artists of every sort of nationality and origin the world over and hence great movies have been made in every corner of the world. I am not worried about the possibility I might not see all or even most of them. I'm not arsed. I don't feel deprived. I don't need anyone to be sorry for me. That actually almost offends me. I guess that's on me, but it does.

I guess, too, what should probably be said is that a movie never really changed my life. I like movies. Always have. I've seen a lot of them but I don't consider myself any sort of student of film. Even when I went through my brief period of film study (self-directed, mind) I was always more interested in screenplays and the writing. Working with scripts in English was a little easier because it's the only language I speak.

I think it's great so many of you have found meaning or joy in films from 'round the world in different languages. That's great. I just don't need anyone's scorn or condescension because I haven't.

If someone wants to deny me the title of Movie Buff or Film Aficionado because I thought Hidden Fortress was good but not life changing or because I don't think watching Lithuanian suspense movies or Belgian porn they can be my guest.

Oops, mangled a word in that diatribe:

If someone wants to deny me the title of Movie Buff or Film Aficionado because I thought Hidden Fortress was good but not life changing or because I don't thinklike watching Lithuanian suspense movies or Belgian porn they can be my guest.

I saw a S Korean flick called 'The Presidents Last Bang' a few weeks ago. It was a slapstick take on the 1979 assasination of the President for life.
Compared to Kubrik spoofing on nuclear war right after the Cuban missle crisis I guess that's pretty tame, but there aren't any Kubric's working in English right now, so sometimes I guess you just have to take what you can get, whatever country it comes from.

maybe we should send dj the bc ForeignFilmEnjoymentKit: pipe, slippers, smoking jacket, copy of La Dolce Vita.

Sending me off for re-education, Sir Saleski? I probably need it.

I'm certainly not anti-culture. I think we could all use some of it. I have watched foreign films. I just didn't get a woodrow from it or a strained arm patting myself on the back for my great and marvelous taste.

I just get pissed off when "culture" is used in a weapon-like manner. What pretentious bullshit. Forgive my uncultured tongue: fuck a whole lot of that noise.

All right. I'm done. Seriously. You may return to a more civilized discussion.

yea, i can certainly understand the snobbery aspects of love of stuff like this...i started watching them because i went through a big cult movie watching period, and then foreign film seemed like a natural progression.

i also liked the non-linearlity of the movies, the fact that they don't always resolve in a typical hollywood kinda way.

....that and the smoking jacket is really comfy.

I always wore my Red Sox jacket when I needed to hang a smoke. I always felt comfy in that.

I like non-linear films or strange camera angles or offbeat stories and characters, too.

don't forget the ascot

But does an ascot and a Red Sox jacket really go together?

only if you're sitting on the couch in the middle of the summer with your boxer shorts, electric fan, and can of cheap beer.

that's hot

I can do that.

Snobbery is pretty lame for any cultural art form. You don't like subtitles, fine then don't watch them.

You don't like reggae, fine don't listen to it.

You don't like detective fiction, then don't read it.

Really who cares? DJ you could never watch another movie in your entire life and I could give a crap. Why should I? I guess we might have less to talk about, but we'd still get along making fun of Saleski.

I think you're missing some great films by not watching a lot of foreign language flicks, but it don't bother me none.

You don't like reggae, fine don't listen to it

Well now, that's just silly. Reggae is great - especially with the whole 'smoking' thing - Red Sox jacket is opptional. : )~

Sir Brewster, I hope you understand not one bit of grumpiness expressed by me was aimed anywhere near your direction or even that of Sir Fleming who called me out! =) No, I can appreciate the two of you are fairly serious film people and I didn't think either one of you came off as being anything other than enthusiastic about an artform you care a lot about and a genre you think deserves more attention. There are no hard feelings on my part in any way, shape, or form.

Now... weren't we supposed to be talking about Saleski?

bronson arroyo hits his second home run of the year and somehow i'm in the middle of this. what a world.

If Bronson Arroyo could play 3B, he'd still be wearing a Red Sox jacket like us.

No offense taken. I know you weren't venting on me. I understand the sentiments of your vent. Who gives a flying crap what movies anybody else has watched?

Can't say I'm a big reggae fan, Sir Mary. Sure I dig some Marley, and maybe a little Jimmy Cliff, but most of what I've heard has been more 'meh' then 'woo hoo' Admittedly, I'm not well versed in the genre and I'm sure there is some darn fine tunes to be heard, but I just don't know where it is.

This entire post and comments have been surprisingly devoid of any mention of Bollywood, Satyajit Ray or any real criticism of international film, most of which is light years ahead of Hollywood

Actually it wasn't - it was very interesting, but I just wanted to say that:) Carry on, folks!

Aaman, Bollywood never occurred to us in a discussion of foreign language films because we all speak Hindi fluently.

Also, to DJRadiohead, I'm sorry you couldn't tell my previous comment was a joke. Just turn the subtitles off? You really thought I was serious about that? Yikes!

Hooray for Bollywood!

I have to admit my filmic intake is very much devoid of any bollywood material. Do you have any suggestions on where one might begin?

In all seriousness, I'm also interested in learning more about Bollywood films. The local video rental places don't seem to be good sources for more than a handful of India's vast cinematic output.

Does Netflix have a decent selection of good Bollywood titles? That might be just the thing I need to finally make the leap and sign up with them.

I don't know what qualifies as 'Bollywood' but I really did like Bend it like Beckham.

Sir Matt -
I'm not such an expert on Reggae myself, but I do like it - and its 'cousin' ska -

but(and this is my attempt to segue back to the topic of film) like I said in my entry about comfort 'film' - you have to be in the right mood for things - be it subtitles, or Jim Carey/Jeff Daniels flicks - same goes with tunes.

This is true, Sir Mary. I have a pretty decent movie collection and I often stare at it trying to decide what I'm in the mood for. Sometimes its extreme asian flickery, other times its some arty French flick, or maybe a girly Jane Austen adaptation (ok, its rarely a Jane Austen adaptation, but still...)

I don't think any of us are saying you have to watch snooty foreign flicks all the time. But sometimes its good to open up the borders and take in something different.

Must speak up on behalf of my husband and others, who are dyslexic. Not that this stopped my husband, who had all of Kurosawa's films on video (laboriously taped off various public broadcasting channels and such) when I met him.

But if any in this thread should be in the industry, it turns out that yellow is a good choice for the font color of your subtitles. My husband can read yellow text quite easily. There's an additional advantage for all, as well, because a black or white font in a black and white movie will have obvious difficulties as the background shifts under it.

Mundane thoughts, but the legibility issue has turned us away from a film or two.

Less mundane: do the people who supply the subtitles have honorary screenwriting rights? Could the best of them become artists in the art of translation? I've been reading Alexandrine sonnets in English based on the originals in French and half the art is the poet's decision to discard a French metaphor in favor of a localism that still makes the same emotional point. I suppose your subtext writer can't stray too far from the original, but there's still opportunity for style.

I used to have the pipe and smoking jacket. But the Culture Police stormed my house and took them from me when they found out that I was using them while watching Ebola Syndrome. They said that wasn't the image they wanted to project. I say, "FUCK OFF! EBOLA!"

I don't think any of us are saying you have to watch snooty foreign flicks all the time. But sometimes its good to open up the borders and take in something different.

And I agree whole heartedly. Wow, listen to me throwing words around like 'whole heartedly' is there a hyphen in there?

But that is the bottom line though - to make people realize that there is more worth viewing. Or something.

indubitably!

(ow...that hurt)

Although I am a native speaker of American English, I also speak/read other languages. For this reason, I do watch foreign language films.

However, what made me a good language student was my willingness to listen to things that I might not understand fully.

What made me a better speaker of English, was learning a foreign language.

I'm not such a fan of Kurosawa although I do like the Seven Samurai.

I've also watched a French film with Japanese subtitles and that gave me a headache.

Maybe those thoughts are mundane, Miss Templeton, but they are important ones.

Maybe there should be an oscar category for best subtitles!

Sir Brewster:

There should also be Razzies for the worst.

I will do a beginners guide to Bollywood, drawn from Netflix-available films soon