"I have worked back breaking "menial" labor when I was the only "white" guy on the crew."

Sooo...you mean these AREN'T jobs that only illegals will do? Shocking! :-/

Yea....everyone that claims that illegals only take the jobs that Americans don't want and that lettuce would be $7 a head is just plain wrong.

The fact is that illegal aliens cost this economy far more than anything they may contribute to it.

What do you think would happen tot he cost of healthcare if millions of illegal aliens weren't recieving it for free alethinos?


I particularly liked your remarked about the "gop cultural elite who haven't worked a day in thier lives." I guess we should look to people like John Kerry, Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton who really know what it means to have put in a hard day's work huh.

The fact is that middle class America.........both left and right have just about reached the breaking point with the illegal aliean situation in this country. They are not undocumented workers, they are ILLEGAL ALIENS and they are a drain on our nation's economy and resources and something must be done about them.

First... I was a bit too quick with the cute and paste... I wanted to list the bill: H.R. 4038: Unlawful Employers Accountability Act of 2005. Frist's is almost as bad I feel but the one out of the House is the worst...

To answer your assertion Arch... Illegal aliens do put a drain on the health system. Of course not all 12 million use it without paying something - but it's a bit hard to tell WHAT is being paid since often it's paid in cash...

HOWEVER, you can't possibly suggest (even though it seems you are) that IF it weren't for them ALL would be fine with our health care system?? Because that would just be a ludicrous assumption. If you think a few million Illegals are tough on the system why don't you focus on the 40 MILLION AMERICANS who have NO health insurance whatsoever - and are standing right there in line with the Illegals? Why don't you say something about the other 10 to 20 MILLION that are UNDER insured and cannot pay their bills??

Do you REALLY think it is the Illegals that are the reason my mother's doctor, knowing she can charge Medicare, insists an OFFICE VISIT is over $140 while my office visit to MY doctor and everyone else I know sees charges of HALF that? Where is the Illegal there Arch? Behind the door holding a burrito to the doctor's head?

As far as elites... I didn't say I was a fan of ANY political elite - but the Republicans take the cake... The F***** table it was sitting on and everything else that isn't bolted down.

It is this gross presumption of superiority that we see in all the actions of the current administration and its minions to which I refer. The examples are so overwhelmingly abundant I don't have the time to list them all...

Alethinos

No RJ... Despite the one dimensional portrayal of Mexican workers they aren't ALL picking tomatos... This was a manufacturing job - still the pay was terrible in comparison to other jobs but those were tough times - the unemployment rate was bad and I had kids to feed. As I said - I was the ONLY White person there...

I work in an industry that pays a livable wage but no one is gonna get rich. I can't tell you HOW many White men have turned their noses up at the work, saying, "This is Wetback work!" I had one Mexican on the staff and 12 others. And I have to say the Mexican was one of the BEST workers I had - hands down.

So the attitude that "this" work is BENEATH a White person is VERY MUCH prevalent.

Alethinos

The work isn't beneath whites/Americans, it's just that most US citizens can't afford to work those sorts of jobs since they don't pay a living wage for those permanently stuck in the US. Illegals, on the other hand, usually live a dozen or more to a house (they must sleep in shifts), and hoard every penny, which they send back to their families, and low as the pay is, the living wage in the countries they come from is so low, the menial wages they make here are luxurious in comparison.

However, aside from the inherent crime of illegals being here at all - which is my primary objection to them - in addition they drain the US economy (NOT contribute to it) not only by using up already straitened medical resources for the uninsured, but also by getting their kids in our schools, to be educated at US taxpayer expense. They require increased police & fire/rescue personnel to control the large (& getting larger) criminal element among them, in addition to their own tendency to ignore laws they don't like, just like back home. They require increased public health services, subsidized housing, and they also drain the limited resources of local food banks as well as religious-sponsored resource centers. They cause funds of all levels of public assistance to be diverted by their need for translation services; were illegals not here, those funds could be used to fund direct services like food & medical care. Illegals are the source of the majority of uninsured motorist accidents, and a substantial percentage of overall vehicular accidents, since they are ignorant of traffic laws & can't read the signs.

Frankly, illegals are vermin. Their very presence is an insult to the laws of this country & its legitimate citizens, including those immigrants who have had the patience & law-abiding respect to follow the process to become legal immigrants. They certainly shouldn't be rewarded, pardoned, or catered to, and they most certainly don't have 'rights' to demand anything here in this country. They should be deported without appeal or hearings immediately, and those who harbor, aid, encourage, or hire them should likewise be held criminally responsible. Without exception.

The mistake was waiting this long to do something about it. Now there are so many illegals and sympathizers here that they can throw politicians out of office while we are busy fighting over the war, abortion, and global warming.

The media is slanting it and people are being portrayed as anti-immigrant who approve enforcing laws which is total crap. I'm not anti-immigrant at all I'm against is illegal immigration. (or undocumented workers to the PC propagandizers)

I believe we should allow as many migrants from mexico who can speak english, will pay taxes, and are willing to work as they are willing to send and welcome them with open arms. (they should speak english for their own protection and to better melt into the culture) They earned it.

The Frist bill is what should have been policy 40 years ago, it's too little too late now that 11 million are here. The people, like Frist, who speak on principle will be voted out and those who pander to Mexican nationalism will be in. Viva la reconquista!

Althenios where did you get the idea that I was implying that the American healthcare system would be flawless if it wer not for illegal aliens?

I posted nothing that any resonable peron would conclude this from.

However... if we were to completely eradicate the problem of ILLEGAL ALIENS recieving free healthcare it could only benefit the system. Of course we would still have problems but it would be a great benefit none the less.

Yes there are AMERICAN CITIZENS who cannot afford to pay for thier healthcare but at least they are American citizens on the books therefore providing a means to induce them to pay for thier care.

Even Nancy who I mostly consider a left wing loon realizes the problem that ILLEGAL ALIENS pose to American society Althenios. So get off your high horse and get with the program. ILLEGAL ALIENS are a cancer threatening to destroy the fabric of our unique American society and therefore must be dealt with.

Oh and for anyone who wants to call me a racist or bigot or address me with any other bullshit argument............you can kiss my ass!

The time to act is now!

You go Althinos...For the first time I am on opposite sides with my favorite blogger NANCY..I just feel it is INHUMANE to send these people back to Mexico after they have been here for years working hard probably a lot harder then most who oppose them ...I am thrilled to see them come out in large numbers and march for their cause it's more than I can say for the lazy Americans who did not come out and march for ending the war even though the polls show millions want it to end ..If we can waste all that money on Iraq who I give a shit for than we can also waste it on these poor ppl..I am not for building a china wall or a Berlin wall to keep them out..get real ppl if any of you lived under the conditions they where living in you would do the same damm thing they are doing ..I don't know how to fix the problem but I suspect it starts with Mexico..Maybe we should help that country to become like us instead of that F.......IRAQ....I say have some compassion for these ppl who only want the same chance at life as you do ..it is ironic that most who want to send them back are so called Christians..talk about hypocrisy..LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELVES..

Wow - Archie considers me a left wing loonie, & the left wing loonies think I'm a racist neocon ... I've arrived!

Georgio, we are NOT responsible for the welfare of any other country on this earth, nor are we responsible for the welfare of their dregs. Maybe those who come here illegally are hard-working, but the point (which pro-illegals can't seem to get their brains around) is that they are, first & foremost, ILLEGAL. WHAT PART OF 'ILLEGAL' DOES ANYBODY HERE NOT UNDERSTAND?! Jesus H. Christ on a crutch. ILLEGAL - not legal; against the law. In defiance of the law. Ignoring the law. Scorning the law. And while they're at it, disrespecting the law and those who DO have the couth & honor to respect it. Not sneaking in, jumping the line past those who do have enough respect for this country to follow the rules & the laws. Their living conditions in the pissholes they come from are regrettable, but they are no concern of ours. If those conditions are untenable, these people should be screaming at their corrupt politicians to fix it - NOT sneaking in here, breaking our laws, overburdening our systems which are supposed to provide for OUR citizens (not every wannabe in the friggin' planet). All these sneaking bastards do is bring their bad habits & poverty with them, because their bad habits & their poverty stem from THEMSELVES. Not us. Themselves. Their own proclivities to ignore the laws they don't like, either at home or here. Their own inability to understand WHY 30 people can't live in one house & shit in the yard or pee in public or cook over a fire set on the middle of the kitchen floor. They come looking for a better life, but they bring the fleas & lice of ignorance & lawlessness with them - and then whine & yell & demand that they be welcomed & accorded the same rights as citizens. Well they're NOT citizens, they're not even legal, and as far as I'm concerned, they ought to be deported on sight, and if they persist in sneaking back in, then shot on sight the 2nd time they're caught. I have no sympathy with lawbreakers of any sort, whether they're in congress or sneaking across the border. And I accept no excuses from either.

Georgio,

If the Mexican people are so great, and smart, and law abiding and hard working then why is their own country a complete shithole?

hahahaha Nancy..Now I know how it feels to be on the other side who have to listen to you rant..I love the way you express yourselves and I know I can get passed this because we are on the same mind about everything else ..I know they are breaking the law but how IN HELL else are they going to get here ..your saying they should get in line well I say BULLSHIT when you are desperate you are going to break the law ..those who are waiting to get in here are not desperate and are in no hurry..If the Cubans could swim over here they would be doing the same thing ..Lets look for a way to solve the problem and sending them back I guarantee you won't work THEY ARE HERE TO STAY and no f'......Army will make them go back ....what we ought to do is make Mexico a state if they would have it ..why not..... Florida is practically Cuba or will be in the near future ..

Georgio........being a Christian and showing compassion to others does not mean that you must let others screw you over and laugh about it in your face.

I have no problem with people who want to come here legally, abide by the laws, pay taxes, speak english, and make valid contributions to society.

I do however have a problem with people who come here illegally, pay not taxes, recieve free healthcare, demand that we cater to them in thier native language, evade paying taxes, and generally harm American society more than they contribute to it.

I am so sick of the bullshit rationaliztions put forth by you and your ilf.........

"oh but they pick our lettuce and work on our farms."

"oh but they take care of our kids and work in our restaurants"

"oh but they're so hard working"

"oh but they are the backbone of the economy"




HORSESHIT!!!!!!!!!



They are a plague upon our society and as soon as we get rid of them we should get rid of thier enablers.......peoplelike you Georgio.

Y'may as well listen to me rant as anyone else. At least I've got a pretty wide-ranging vocabulary & can spell better than most.

As to illegals, I don't know how we could physically stop them, except by cutting off their source of supply - employment. Make the stakes for illicit employers too high to be worth the hiring of illegals. Make illegals totally ineligible for benefits of any kind - food, housing, medical, educational - and enforce it. Make deportation automatic & unrelenting, and the price of sneaking back in too high to want to pay - and make it stick. Rescind the privilege of automatic citizenship to anyone born here: if you're born of illegals, you don't get that privilege, it doesn't apply to you; that ensures that if the parents are caught, the kids go, too, since they also have no right to be here - nor should they. As I said, I tolerate no deliberate lawbreaking from myself, or from anyone else, rich or poor. As for those already here, round them up, and deport them. And make it stick. No excuses, no exceptions.

A good deal of the problem is people like W. Bush, whose wealth depends on being able to undercut citizens' rights & wages by destroying unions & bringing in cheap, non-competitive labor to be worked like virtual slaves. He isn't doing the illegals any favors by letting them in to work themselves to death for $5 an hour or less; he's just foisting the true cost of their employment onto the rest of us, just like Walmart with their employees' lack of medical coverage which forces them onto medicaid & other public health care systems paid by the taxpayers. The oligarchy is doing its best to divide & conquer in the name of Holy Profit.

Arch Conservative... spoken like a true right wing Christian [Personal attack deleted]... I wish you [Personal attack deleted] had your own state with Bush as your leader

"I wish you jerks had your own state with Bush as your leader"

We do, it's called the United States of America, you might have heard of it.

And Georgio, since you are in love with the people you might consider moving to Mexico. Their government is to the left of the US.

Nice to see Nancy siding with the most conservative reactionaries in the GOP. She must love the Sensenbrenner immigration bill since it does everything she wants in creating a new Fortress America for white people only.

But let me address at least one major misconception I've seen repeated in the comment stream. As a rule undocumented workers are NOT paid substantially less than 'white' people who do the same jobs, though they - along with a lot of anglo workers who choose it - are likely paid in cash and off the books. One area where a lot of immigrants work is in migrant farm labor harvesting vegetables and the like. That work is already exempted from the federal minimum wage for native and immigrant workers alike. Another area where a lot of them work is construction, where many of the native workers also work off the books for a variety of reasons and take payment in cash. In both of these instances pay levels are about the same for all workers regardless of where they come from and what their status is. I have personal knowledge of the construction industry and I know that illegals get paid a working wage and most are able to save substantial amounts of money by keeping their expenses low. They are then able to send quite a bit back to Mexico.

As for these being jobs Americans don't want, that's not exactly correct. These are jobs that have conditions which most Americans prefer not to work under. If you have any kind of mechanical or clerical skill you can get a job which pays just as well or better where you work indoors, so why do an outdoor job like construction or lawn work or farm work if you don't have to? Mexicans lack the language and computer skills to compete in areas like data processing and phone bank work, which are easy alternatives for native workers. They're still grunt work, but they're indoor grunt work.

Dave

Thanks for the information, Dave. I didn't know that there was any pay parity in construction jobs; just that almost all jobs involving illegals are 'off the books', under the table, and cash only. As for "white only", you keep judiciously ignoring what I say: I welcome LEGAL immigrants of any color or venue; the more the merrier. It's the illegals I despise & reject, because they are ILLEGAL. That should be plain enough for even you to understand.

Nancy, it shouldn't be illegal to seek a better life for yourself and your family. That's inherently inhumane. If a law runs counter to both the welfare of otherwise good people and the best economic interests of the nation, then the law ought to be changed. Are you really a criminal if you're in violation of a bad law? Doesn't it make more sense to change the bad law and give the violator a break?

That's basically what the McCain-Kennedy bill does. It sets up new standards for immigration. Fines the illegals for their 'crimes' and gives them a chance to rehabilitate themselves and eventually earn citizenship. It's the right way to deal with the situation.

And BTW, going back to the 'off the books' issue, you might be surprised at how much of a gray market in labor there is here in the US among native workers. I know of scads of white guys many of whom are ex-cons (usually for drug offenses) who have moved into the underground economy and are basically working on the same basis as Mexicans. They get paid in cash, pay no income tax or social security and keep living expenses low and maintain a pretty low profile. They're a mobile population, but on the whole they live fairly decently. I think most people would be surprised how many of these folks there are in America.

Dave

so rather than hurling resources at the "border problem", why not enforce the legality of workers at the point of hire?

would there be something wrong with requiring that of the hiring entity (farms, etc.)?

Question: what are they proposing to do to prevent future futher illegals? What are they doing to do with those that DO come in illegally anyway, with no intention of becoming citizens or paying taxes, hm? Why should anyone voluntarily pay taxes, learn a foreign language, & obey the laws when they can live comfortably without doing so? They don't, and they won't. It's easier to live in the subculture you talk about. This new law is going to fail, because it's got no teeth.

Dave,

It's not just a short term economic issue. The problem is when you have an entire portion of the country with a different language and culture. That has been tried countless times through history usually ending with tragic results. I'm not sure why you would support letting it happen here.

We must make sure the people we allow in are ready to be assimilate and become Americans, not marching around speaking a foreign language and waving native flags in mass protest.

Red, the McCain-Kennedy immigration bill requires immigrants to learn English and go through an extended residency period before they can enter the process which would eventually earn them citizenship.

The concept has always been that if you give immigrants long enough living here they will eventually absorb enough of the general culture to become americanized.

Dave

Arch Concervative ..Since Dave agrees with me that we should treat them in a humane way would you also say the same things you said to me to Dave ..Like Go live in Mexico..Ha I doubt it.

Georgio I never told you to go live in Mexico so WTF are you talking about?

the only reason to live in mexico is for the cheap beer, servants and whores. immigration let's us bring all those good things here so we can enjoy them right here in the US. sounds like a great idea to me. bring on the peons.

Well, an interesting and by and large despicable display here today. Unfortunately I was away and couldn't chip in. Good thing because it gave me a chance to see the range of replies.

ARCH, I get the impression you are a sophomore at some Ivy League school who has a real chip on his shoulder. Either that or you are a desperate little fellow who fowards all his posting to Rush Limbaugh in the hopes he might read one on the show.

Or you're Cheney's food tester,which would explain how you have so much time on your hands.

RETARD, well, the name says it all...

NANCY, Don't blame an entire race of people because you had a lousy love affair with a short guy from Guadalajara. Never have I read more poorly disguised racist attitudes masquerading as a "reasoned argument".

DAVE, with whom I rarely agree - actually had the most reasoned voice.

GEORGIO, thanks for carrying the torch. Very passionate.

It seems like the issue might be over... Let's hope intelligence and compassion, as well as common sense, prevails.

Alethinos

"If the Mexican people are so great, and smart, and law abiding and hard working then why is their own country a complete shithole?"

THANK YOU for this great line! I love it! :-)

Althenios..........most Americans are against ILLEGAL ALIENS crossing our borders. Maybe you think most Americans are wrong and you'd like to slander them as well as myself, Nancy, and redtard.

You to me sound like the typical young, leftist zealot, believing in your own moral and intellectual superiority because you read the Communist Manifesto and other such nonsense, wearing your tye-dyed or Che Guevera T-shirt, lecturing anyone who is sufficiently passive and ignorant enough to listen to you with any degree of seriousness on the evils of America and capitalism, living in a world of moral relativism where concepts like personal responsibility and accountability, and individual effort do not exist.


It's people like you that believe everyone is entitled to the same lifestyle regardless of the effort or lack there of that they put forth. You're an excuse maker........ a loser enabler.....a joke quite plainly.


The fact that you refuse to condemn ILLEGAL ALIENS who are for the most part a drain economically and socially on American society, all the while attacking so viciously the real American citizens that pay taxes, speak english, and abide by the law who do so proves this point. You have to resort to typical far left tactics such as attacking the individual and not the argument, freely throwing about baseless epitaths such as "racist" toward anyone who doesn't agree with you.


You are the lowest common denominator of American society as are the ILLEGALS ALIENS that you have such compassion for are. My only hope is that America as a whole will not be swayed by your propaganda in the face of the danger that is currently posed by our ILLEGAL ALIEN problem.

I feel strongly that we will not and that when all is said and done members of the lunatic fringe like you who are so ineffectual in the real world wil be left with nothing but your inane ramblings on internet sites.

Alethinos, there is nothing racist about insisting that people who come to this country start by obeying the laws. Plenty of legal immigrants do just that. The point with illegals is, they are selfish & indifferent enough to be scofflaws simply because they 'want', whether it's employment or free public education better than what they can get back home. They can't be bothered to try for it legally; why should they when shitheads like you are prepared to hand it over to them gratis just because they want it & demand it. ALL illegals are scum, whether from Guadalajara, Singapore, London, or Toronto. In fact, the only illegal I ever did know personally was Canadian, and she was the inspiration for my utter disdain & rejection of illegals: she paid no taxes, yet took full advantage of facilities & services provided for US citizens by US citizens who did pay taxes, thereby displacing those rightfully entitled to said facilities & services & draining resources from those rightfully entitled to receive them. I was utterly disgusted when the INS declined to do anything to remove her back to where she belonged, Canada. Had she come here & on deciding she liked it applied for legal status, I would have had no complaint, but she didn't, thereby exhibiting her contempt for US law & US citizens, her indifference to playing by the rules & 'cutting in line' ahead of those who do respect the US enough to do the right & legal thing. If nothing else, those who seek to enter legally deserve better treatment & more respect than to have their law-abidingness kicked in their faces by these arrogant, ignorant, selfish scumbags who see no reason whatsoever to obey any laws or play by any rules they don't like in gratifying their ends.

RJ, as usual, your ignorance is astounding. Mexicans have REPEATEDLY tried, and tried deperately to CHANGE the conditions in their country but the powers that be - with the blind eye of the powers in Washington - brutely put down any real threats of change. Journalists are regularly killed.

This pattern is no different than in any other country where the US has a strategic interest.

We've ALLOWED the "shithole" to fester and will continue to do so because it is in our favor. I guarantee you, if what had happened in Venezuela Washington would be freaking out.

We live in the real world and we are desperate for Mexico's oil. And the cheap labor. In truth a good portion of the "power machine" doesn't like the way things are in Mexico, but it would be insane, in their view, to do anything that might disrupt things and risk OUR interests...

WE are the ones who, to a large degree, make sure the "shithole" continues stinking...

Alethinos

Arch, it is pointless to discuss this with you. You are so blatantly racist that you are incapable of rational thought.

Sorry.

Alethinos

Nancy... Where exactly do you live? I mean, are you under siege? Wait! Are you living at the Alamo??!

I have always lived next to or in large Hispanic populations. I don't see this horrible wave of crime you keep talking about. Sure, there are issue with gangs. Sure their are issues with meth.

But we have these issues with WHITES. Why don't we start by shipping all those WHITES who are BREAKING THE LAWS back to their ancesteral lands?

Your arguments just don't hold water. I live with these people all around me. I have them as customers. I see their children. I don't see an issue.

And another thing... When I have to take my mother to the emergency room - I see an ER overwhelmingly WHITE.

As I said before Nancy... Something terrible must have happened in your life with a Latino...
Your near hysterical attitude toward these people is suspect.

Alethinos

From what I've observed, most of Mexico's problems stem not from the US but from massive internal corruption dating from the Spanish invasion. Cleaning up their act is something only the Mexicans can do; it is not our responsibility or our capability; consider what a cesspool of our own we have to deal with, with congress & the current administration. We have enough on our plate to handle, without having to take on cleaning up Mexico (or anyplace else) as well, and I should think Mexican (or whomever) citizens would be offended & outraged if we did arrogate to ourselves that kind of thing. It's bad enough we're over in Iraq trying to inflict "democracy" on people who didn't really want it, have no tradition for it, and no real interest in it because the tradition of tribal & religious-group interest takes priority every time. Worse, BushCo is trying to insist that they make their democracy a mirror of the corrupted US version of it, complete with electoral college, lobbyists, & all the other charming accoutrements of a democracy that is actually no democracy at all. The point is, Mexico or wherever is not going to prosper by encouraging their excess population of losers to illegally migrate somewhere else; we have no obligation to provide for these losers the services their own government refuses or fails to; and we have no business robbing our own legitimate citizens & legal immigrants in order to accomodate these vermin, wherever they're from, whether it's Salvador, S. Korea, Lebanon, or the former USSR. If they aren't willing to observe the laws first & foremost, they have no business being here, and no rights to do so. Period.

Nancy... Of COURSE the powers-that-be in Mexico are "responsible" for the current conditions. What I am saying is that the US has never lifted a finger to "insist" that Mexico turn things around. It isn't in our interest. Why should we? We're getting the oil we need. We have the cheap labor. Mexican authorities are pretty good at putting down what WE consider "dangerous" elements.

I mean if we were so goddamned worried about real democracy why didn't we invade Mexico instead of Iraq?

Your attitude toward Mexicans in general though smacks of straight our racism. I seriously doubt you ever had anything more than a passing experience with Mexicans - and that must have been a bad one.

Are the illegals a drain on our system? No. Not any more than we are. Our health care system is a MASSIVE drain on OUR economy. It isn't some Mexican father's fault in the ER hoping the doctor can take care of his child's 104f fever.

It is the MASSIVE GREED of INSURANCE COMPANIES, HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS, pharmaceuticals... and the politicians who get rich from bribes... THIS IS THE DRAIN ON THE SYSTEM NANCY!!! Wake up and stop swallowing AM Radio morning shows lock, stock and barrel.

Alethinos

Nancy... Of COURSE the powers-that-be in Mexico are "responsible" for the current conditions. What I am saying is that the US has never lifted a finger to "insist" that Mexico turn things around. It isn't in our interest. Why should we? We're getting the oil we need. We have the cheap labor. Mexican authorities are pretty good at putting down what WE consider "dangerous" elements.

I mean if we were so goddamned worried about real democracy why didn't we invade Mexico instead of Iraq?

Your attitude toward Mexicans in general though smacks of straight our racism. I seriously doubt you ever had anything more than a passing experience with Mexicans - and that must have been a bad one.

Are the illegals a drain on our system? No. Not any more than we are. Our health care system is a MASSIVE drain on OUR economy. It isn't some Mexican father's fault in the ER hoping the doctor can take care of his child's 104f fever.

It is the MASSIVE GREED of INSURANCE COMPANIES, HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS, pharmaceuticals... and the politicians who get rich from bribes... THIS IS THE DRAIN ON THE SYSTEM NANCY!!! Wake up and stop swallowing AM Radio morning shows lock, stock and barrel.

Alethinos

Sorry for the hiccup there... Broadband... It does have it's drawbacks...

Of course I haven't had coffee yet either...

Alethinos

Lol, I wondered if you were really getting worked up there....

I still say we have no right or responsibility to insist that any other government do anything; but I do think you have a point with invasion of Mexico, say, over Iraq. We probably would never consider it because then we'd have to keep it. Actually, I've never met any Mexicans, except in the most superficial way, like frequenting a very good little restaurant nearby & its attached Hispanic groceria. I do know they're legal, since when the paterfamilias got his citizenship the place was lit up like Las Vegas & we all (I mean the customers as well as the family) were very congratulatory & celebration-minded. They're good people, very nice, and I'm glad they're here. But the difference is, they're LEGAL.

Nancy... Well, I figured if I poked you enough I'd get the old Nancy we all know and love...

Of course there are a LOT of problems with the IAs. And they have to be addressed. But these people, by and large ACTUALLY do pay taxes, etc. I can't tell you how many I have known that have told me they were here illegally but they get their paychecks, they pay taxes, they have a drivers license, etc.

And of course criminals come over the border. But Canadian criminals come over our border too. And Asian criminals come here. And terrorists like to vacation here too on during the off-season...

My beef with the types like Arch is this: DON'T BLAME these people, who have the LEAST ability to defend themselves, for what are problems that are actually of AMERICA'S making - health care, etc.

But, yes there is a problem out there. And there is a HUMANE way of dealing with it where it benefits everyone...

Later Nanc... Off to work now...

Alethinos

I can't give you any answers, because I'm not smart enough to solve the world's problems, I know it, & I don't pretend I do - therefore I don't run for congress. I just know that I don't like anyone being here illegally, from anywhere, for any reason. It slaps all of us who are law-abiding right in the face.

HOw typical..........

Althenios called me a racist...

Guess he can't quite muster a valid cogent argument to dispute the points I made.

He goes around callign everyone "racist" and ignorant.

Talk about the pot and the kettle.

"Even Nancy who I mostly consider a left wing loon..."
- Arch Conservative, #7

"Althenios called me a racist...
Guess he can't quite muster a valid cogent argument to dispute the points I made."
- Arch Conservative, #41

Yo Archie, me thinks thou doth whine too much...

You failed to mention that when Althenios called me a racist it was all there was to his post but when I said I consider a leftist loon I actually followed it up by adressing the topic of this thread.

Wah, wah, wah. Archie, you're always calling people names, whether you follow it up with comments on the actual thread subject or not. At least Alth wasn't obscene about it. "Racist" is downright balmy considering some of the slander I've seen on here. Althenos will be back after work & you can have it out with him then. However, you know if you're a racist or not; if you stand on law-&-order, then no, so why worry about it? I do consider Alth to be a little hasty in calling out the ol' "racist" label, but sticks & stones, y'know.

I guess that makes me a linguistic bigot.

If Mexican/South American/central americans would learn and speak ENGLISH I'd have no problem with them in our society. The Germans, the French, the Italians, when they came to our shores, they knew the only way they could fit in was to learn English.

In Arab countries, American women are expected to hide their hair or even wear burkas, and we have to be damned careful to respect their traditions.
Well by DAMN they should be expected to do the same here. That means speaking English-or at least trying to, and not walking around in turbans and dressed like strange nuns, babbling to kids that aren't going to make it here unless they speak english.

I am an American
NOT an Mexican American
NOT an Gay American
NOT an left handed American
NOT an Irish American
NOT an African American
NOT an Italian American
NOT an German American

I am an AMERICAN.

If you wander-or sneak-onto our shores, become one of US-Don't stay one of them, then you won't have any trouble wondering why we won't except you as a neighbor and a friend.

...but that's only my opinion

Do you know why Mexicans like to drive low-riders?

So they can pick lettuce while they drive.

Ha, Ha, I'm funny.

No, you have a good point. If I were to move to France, Germany, wherever, with a view towards living there, I'd be damned sure to learn the language, at least, as well as try to follow the customs. It seems to be only here in the US that foreigners expect us to conform to THEM, by providing services in their languages, etc. One problem, however, is that most illegals are the bottom of the barrel, abysmally ignorant even in their own cultures & countries. I've heard middle class Hispanics complain that they can't even communicate with some of these yahoos from the barrios, they're such bottom-feeders, culturally & intellectually as well as educationally. I've been told by one (1) educated North African I've met that the same applies to these refugees into Europe from around the Mediterranean. So on top of being illegal, they're also hardly inclined or able to learn a whole new culture ... which is not a reason, in my mind, to provide them the means to continue in their old one.

I question those who assert that these people pay taxes. One word: how? How do they file without a legit SSN? They can't. No one who's illegal pays taxes, because there are certain IDs & documents you have to have to file, which apologists obviously are unaware of or they wouldn't make such a ridiculous claim. Sales taxes, maybe. Those don't require any ID; but income taxes, retirement & healthcare taxes, employment taxes, unemployment taxes? Bullshit. And that's where the bulk of the resources drainage comes in. Illegals don't begin to pay their fair share of taxes to contribute to the resources they use, and never will simply by the nature of the beast. But all that begs the issue: they are illegal. That alone bars them from being considered decent, contributing persons. They know the law, they ignore the law, they should be subjected to the fullest penalties of the law. No excuses, no exceptions. And most certainly, no enabling.

OK so now we have high school students in California tearing down the American flag putting the Mexican flag on top of it and inverting it.

I'm sure Althenios will still tell us how much ILLEGALS contribute to our society though.

Nancy, some of the comments you made with regard to illegal imigrants do paint you as a racist. I'm rather surprised and saddened. They may be here illegally but there is no need in refering to ANY human beings as vermin and the like. That's just plain wrong and you can't defend it. It's outstanindgly insulting to group a people and refer to them as vermin and the like.

"Why don't we start by shipping all those WHITES who are BREAKING THE LAWS back to their ancesteral lands?"

If they aren't here legally, we should...

But of course 99.9% of them ARE here legally, usually by birth...so your "argument" is complete horseshit...

there are so many funny points in the article one forgets where to start, one about elites, well clearly democratic elite does not exist all the rich democrats are really oppressed. two, illegal immigrants are doing farm jobs and if one really thinks about it we really do not need actually to grow a lot of produce in this country we can buy it cheaper abroad, also why is the author so proud being a menial worker, its not a big honor it just means he fell on hard times, there is nothing glorious about menial work also about underpaying the workers, the pay is determined by ability and demand for certain skills and digging ditches should not really be paid well after all very little skill is required

Mike, don't tell anyone, because it'd blow my whole reputation here, but I agree with you. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

No RJ... There are no horses around here. The point, I guess I will have to get out the sketch pad, is that your argument hinges on their being MEXICAN. They don't COMMIT a crime BECAUSE they're MEXICAN rj... They commit a crime because they have little or no MORALS. Much like our friends at ENRON who've ripped off more people in California than the gang bangers will for the next 500 years!

Ya twit...

And tell me... Are you able to drive down the street and SPOT an illegal? Can you tell in a crowd of Mexican men which is paying his taxes and which isn't? Because I sure as hell can't.

And to the INANE statement (by Jet) about learning English... A lot of Mexicans - the ones who moved here - struggle mightily to learn the language. Of course if they weren't the SLACKERS that you have them as they would have paid a couple of thousand and gone to Berlitz! That's after they've pulled ANOTHER 12 hour shift.

Good God but you, RJ and Arch are BEYOND White... You're DICK CHENEY WHITE!!

Alethinos

why should this whole immigration issue turn into racism issue, people oppose illegals not because they are mexicans but because they are illegals, and other south american illegals are no different. people oppose illegals of any race, also i think the whole american immigration is lopsided, we do not need low skill workers here, we can buy a lot of what they produce overseas, what us needs are high skill immigrants in large number and low skill immigrants in low numbers

Jeez! I drift a little right of center (just to show I can) and I get called "inane" I drift a little to the left (okay a lot) and I get called that horrible word "Liberal"

Is there any position that's truly safe on this site?????

sheesh!!!!!!!!!!

Mike... You seem like a reasonable guy... Do you know WHY we "import" Indian engineers - some of whom I've met and become friends with? Because they are on "guest worker visas" and they can still be paid next to nothing for doing the same worker their WHITE counterparts do for a helluva good wage. (Yah, yah, so there's a few Persians in there who've become citizens. That's nice)

We can't have all of them coming over because suddenly it WON'T be cheap anymore. It is cheap having them do the work THERE.

Back to the illegals - let's get this STRAIGHT. It isn't as if once the illegals BECOME legal they move into gated communities and start swapping golf stories with Bif and Milly... They still often DO THE SAME FRIGGIN' JOB and often times get the same crappy pay.

And YES Nancy a good number of illegals DO pay taxes and have driver's licenses. HOW? By buying SSN and false ID. Just like WHITE corporate fat cats on the lam do when they skip to some South American country.


Alethinos

Sorry Jet... It's been a long day and the TRUE inanities from Arch and RJ just got me going... Sorry for the Dick Cheney "friendly" fire...

Alethinos

the reason the indian engineers get imported is not just cheaper labor it is also because there is sohrtage of whiteys to do the job, also if the pay would be unreasonably low they would not come to us, yet they do. The pay is lower bu not necessarily low

Mike... I met one guy on the plane that was getting $29K... Which sounds good. And it was good - amazingly good in comparison to India. And not too shabby for here. But his counterparts were making $45+. This guy was sweating (already) if he'd be "re-upped".

It isn't a fair exchange.

But again - here is the pressure. The veggies and fruit you eat - it ain't cheap now - but if all the illegals were shipped home tomorrow... We'd see inflation that hasn't been seen since the Great Depression...

There IS no easy answer here - despite what that fat bastards on the Hill tell ya...

Alethinos

nancy. a legal immigrant is whatever we choose to define as legal. if we say the punishment for crossing the border is a fine and either going back or getting a green card them that's justice. it's more severe than the zero enforcement we're doing now and if we need the workers as much as we seem to then it's a good plan.

And that's fine with me, too, as long as they're obeying the law, & not thumbing their noses at it. And yes - we SHOULD deport whites who are here illegally. You obviously blipped over my comment about the illegal Canadian babe I once knew.

Actually, a LOT of them WOULD sign up for English classes in a heartbeat if there only were any available. Around where I live, any free classes run by social centers, church centers, etc. are packed long in advance.

"Dick Cheney white" ... now, THAT is a gross insult!

I think it's especially important to make them demmed cannucks learn the proper American English.

Dave

It seems as if Althenios is the only poster in this thread who wants to inject race into every post while those he calls racist do not even mention the topic of race in thier posts.

Althenios is the typical race baiter, claiming his own moral superiority and tolerance by screaming racist at others who do not agree with him but have not even mentioned race let alone stated anything that could remotely be construed as racist.


Am I the only one who seees this?

But Dave??? That's what I said in #45, and I got jumped for it!

It seems as if Althenios is the only poster in this thread who wants to inject race into every post while those he calls racist do not even mention the topic of race in thier posts.

Arch conservative is the typical politics baiter, claiming his own moral superiority and tolerance by screaming LIBERAL at others who do not agree with him but have not even mentioned politics let alone stated anything that could remotely be construed as leaning toward the left.


Am I the only one who seeeeees this?

Jet, I think if you were to ask the people I call liberal if they were in fact liberal, they would say that they are.

However, I am not a racist.

Oh, okay...

Dear God!!! I....I....I....I almost agreed with Arch Conservative! Some one feel my forehead qqick!!!

Okay you're not a racist.
You're a "Liberalist"

...but of course that's only my opinion...

Since we're all human, I maintain we're all racists, to one degree or another, since it's human nature to identify with others who look/act/speak/think like yourself over all others and to assert that therefore THOSE are the safe/sane/correct people while all others are suspect ... or at least not quite as good. So the term 'racist' doesn't particularly bother me, since it's a little like screaming "human!" at me. Actually, we tend to judge not by phenotypic race, but by culture, therefore it would be more appropriate & proper to label people "culturists!"

To be more accurate I'm an "anti far leftist."

Race doesn't matter at all to me. I abhor all ultra leftist liberals wether they are white, black, hispanic, asian etc...

I agree with and generally like most conservatives and right of center individuals regardless of thier race.

Although I am not a big fasn of many on the far right either. I think this Phelps guy is disgraceful as is anyone else who would want to harm another solely on the basis of thier sexual orientation or race.

Despite being a Christian I do not believe that my religion should be forced upon everyone in this nation but I do get a wee bit perturbed when censoring Christian expression in the public spehere takes place while the expression of other relions in the public sphere is allowed, quite the double standard. I also get perturbed when leftist revisionists try to deny or hide the fact that this nation was indeed founded by Christians and that the dominant influence on our culture since it's founding has been Judeo Christian principles.

Aw, man, we've been OVER this: the founders mostly held non-Christian "deist" principles, religiously. Gonzo spent WEEKS hashing this out with Nalle & a few others in another thread. Alas, can't remember the title. I agree, NO religion should be expressed in the public sphere: either they all are, or none are.

That is not true. Most of the founders were Chjrsitian with a few diests mixed in.

Forget it Nancy, he must've just come back from watching Pat Robertson, who preaches that the pilgrims coming over on the Mayflower is equal to Moses parting the red sea.

The pilgrims came over here to ESCAPE religious oppression, not to set up a theocracy over here that's trying to do the same thing now that the pilgrims were trying to escape from then.

...but of course that's only my opinion

Actually, the Pilgrims proper came over here because their kids were starting to mesh into the Dutch culture & they were afraid of losing their identity as English nonconformists, so they came here - and promptly got mostly wiped out by famine & disease & the Bostonians up north.

Nancy, the Pilgrims came over here several years before the Dorchester settlement that led to the foundation of Boston. And from their point of view living in religiouslky tolerant Holland WAS religious persecution.

And Jet, the pilgrims came over here 100% to start a religious theocracy. That was their entire idea with their 'City on a Hill', to found a perfect society based on god's law. For 3 generations the primary qualification for voting was to be a member of a church. They actually brought a number of non-puritans with them as employees and servants (including a couple of Jews and Arabs) and they weren't allowed to vote or have full citizenship rights because of their religion.

Now, their experiment turned into an absolute disaster, creating an oppressive oligarchy run by church elders and completely out of step with contemporary culture and inherently opposed to progress. There was such a strong backlash against it by the time of the revolution that many New Englanders had become virtual agnostics, embracing deism and universalism and unitarianism instead.

Dave

I'm sorry, I went to public school, and we were taught that the pilgrims fled the King's religous persecutions.

Hmmmmmmm

Oh WAIT Dave, you've got to be right, after all they were the ones that were later burning witches in Salem!!!!

My bad

How can you people be so ignorant.

The vast majority of the poeple who founded this nation were in fact some form of Protestant..... not deists, not atheists, not muslims, not hindu.....

This is a fact.

Our governement, laws, and culture overtime have been influenced by Judeo Christian values more than any other factor.

This is also a fact.

The founders of this nation never intended to establish a theocracy but they also never intended for expressions of religion by individuals in public to be forbidden either.

If Jet and Nancy desire to remain ignorant and claim that these things are not true that is their perogative.

Arch-just because you SAY it's fact doesn't make it fact

Just because I say it's fact-doesn't make it fact.

I don't claim to be the know all-be all cabala of wisdom and fact like you do.

All this is OPINION, so get your head out of your ass and knock it off with your "facts"

Neither one of us were alive back then, although in your case-I guess it might be a possiblity.

The Old testament was written THOUSANDS of years after the original occurances happened, The new testament happened HUNDREDS of years after it happened, and King James took those and translated them into his own "Version" after that.

Oh yeah that's bound to be accurate!

WILL YOU PLEASE STOP BEATING YOUR BIBLE AND READ IT FOR A CHANGE-"judge not lest you be judged yourself"

That's why I end each comment with...

...but that's only my opinion.

Did I mention th ebible at all in any of my posts Jet?

I don't recall doing so.

I understand you harbor a deep seated hatred for Christianity but tthat does not change the fact that all of the things I said in my last post are true.

1. We were founded by mainly protestants.

2. Nothing has had more influence on the development and culture of this nation than the tenets and values of the Judeo Christian faith.

3. The founders intent was not to expell all religion from public life.

These are not opinions these three things are facts Jet. So please don't go talking about me beating a bible when I never mentioned anything baout he bible or the new testament at all.


Nice biblical quote I bet it's the only one you know because you find it useful to inject in your arguments. To make it look as if you actually know somethign about the bible.


The bible also says "judge rightous judgement."


I'm willing to bet you didn't know that one huh Jet.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-thomas jefferson

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-thomas jefferson

and finally:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-thomas jefferson

What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ."
-
-George Washington May 12, 1779

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

- George Washington

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity...to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

-James Madison 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia

The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity...I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God."

-John Adams June 28, 1813

You wanna play that game Mark?

Seems like you keep quoting the same individual over nad over again whereas I am not doing that.

Ummmm ... Arch, when we talk about "Founders" of this nation with a capital F, we're generally speaking of Jefferson, Madison, Adams, & that crowd ... all of whom were deists. If you're going back to the early settlers, I'll concede they were all mostly some form of Protestant, with the exception of the Marylanders under Lord Calvert.

Ignorant of that sort of stuff, however, we're not, but you do rather tip off your own lack of information.

i'm not playing any sort of game at all.

i'm just pointing out some of the subtleties related to judeo christian values and our history.

what is it with people like you and the need to 'win' these arguments?

Need to win....

I am just stating facts.......

although there were a few diests among our founding fathers, most of them were in fact christian. this is a fact.

you, nancy and jet seem to think that this is not true so i was just providing a little proof...

i can provide much more if need be

AC,

The vast majority of pwople who founded this country were deists strongly influenced by the seven laws of Noah, and the ones who made your country grow were Bible reading Protestants of non-governmental churches. That is wonderful.

That doesn't change the fact that somebody has to pick the lettuce, and if he is actually paid a living wage, lettuce in you country will cost $7.00/head or more.

THANKS RUVY!!! By jinkies I knew someone would have enough sense to get us back on topic.

Let's see how long THAT lasts!

Besides Mark, just because that liberal atheist Thomas Jefferson helped coin the constitution doesn't mean he knows ANYTHING about America. (;)

Be careful Mark, he might start calling you names again! Go stand in the corner, and when he does, that'll give you time to give him a snappy retort, for which he'll call you more names.

Sticks and Stones Arch, Sticks and Stones.
I can take any quote from anyone and turn it around to suit my purposes, so can you, so can anyone.

...but that's only my opinion

PS Arch you need to do something about that stuttering problem in comment 80, relax, read a good book...

That doesn't change the fact that somebody has to pick the lettuce, and if he is actually paid a living wage, lettuce in you country will cost $7.00/head or more.

So, where are the mass graves of these migrant workers who are not currently paid a 'living' wage? Because lettuce around here doesn't cost $7 a head or anything near that.

The fact is that migrant labor proves that the idea of an inflated 'living wage' is an utter myth. By economizing and living collectively migrant workers can live on $3 an hour and send money home to Mexico to boot. They wouldn't be taking the jobs if the result was death from a non-livable wage. And I have to point out that migrant farm workers from Mexico are LEGAL non-resident aliens who come in on special work visas for that express employment.

Dave

Nah Jet I just can't your ignorance and your persistence in telling me how this nation was founded when you obviously know nothing about it.

"Nah Jet I just can't your ignorance"

Arch, Have you considered English Lit classes?

Ignorant, Arch-Ignorant???

A quote from "The Introduction of Colonization of New England"


..."The Pilgrims of 1620 were men of great zeal, but of little knowledge; many of the Puritans of 1630, however, were men of education and fortune, members of Parliament, or clergymen of the most liberal education. Led by such men, the movement created a profound impression in England, and thousands now prepared to cross the western ocean and take up their abode in the forests of New England. More than a thousand came in 1630, and as the policy of the king and Laud became more intolerable, the tide increased in volume. The people came, not singly, nor as families merely, but frequently as congregations, led by their pastor."


Note the phrase
More than a thousand came in 1630, and as the policy of the king and Laud became more intolerable, the tide increased in volume



...but that's only a text book's opinion and will be branded as left wing liberal propoganda...

Oh Archie, any one can google to find "facts" to radify their arguments, regardless what they may be.

For instance...

From the MAKING OF A NEW NATION...

"Under King Henry VIII, the official religion of England was separated from the Roman Catholic Church in 1534. An Anglican Church became the official church of England. Before long, dissident groups arose within the Anglican Church. One group that proposed to purify the church became known as Puritans. Another group, within the Puritans, wanted to separate from the Anglican Church. Some of the "separatists" left England and went to Holland. They were given greater religious freedom there. Ten years later they joined disgruntled congregations from England and left on a pilgrimage to the English-held lands in America. From this pilgrimage aboard a ship named "Mayflower" came the name "Pilgrims". This is the name by which they are best known In November, 1620, the "Mayflower" arrived off Cape Cod*, in present-day Massachusetts. The cost of the voyage was paid for by an English merchant. He hoped to make a profit from their settlement. Aboard the "Mayflower" were fifty men, twenty women, and thirty-four children. Most were Pilgrims, but others belonged to the Anglican Church. Though the Pilgrims wanted religious freedom for themselves, and from the restrictions of government, they often denied it to others. As a result, disputes had arisen between the religious groups. Some way had to be found out of this crisis. While the ship was lying off shore, it was decided to draw up rules for the settlement that was planned. The result was the Mayflower Compact. It was one of the first proposals for rules of self-government in the Americas."


Note...

"Though the Pilgrims wanted religious freedom for themselves, and from the restrictions of government, they often denied it to others."

Sounds like Arch had forebearers on the Mayflower, doesn't it?

...But of course that's only my opinion

...By economizing and living collectively migrant workers can live on $3 an hour...

yes, that's called "four people to an unairconditioned, dirt-floored shack".

But looking at both sides now, there's not a lot of wiggle room. On one hand, paying a decent wage would knock out a lot of farmers, just struggling to stay a float, against foreign crops that'd be overwhelming in price compared to ours.

On the other hand you could say that the wages they get are near slave labor, and the only reason they take it is because their own country's laws create an invironment where they'd actally make more here than there.

...but that's only my opinion

"Ya twit..."

Nice. An undeleted personal attack...

Yah RJ, I thought I'd see if I could get that past the powers-that-be. It sums up a lot of the frustration I've felt over reguritated right-wing AM radio blather that's shown up here. That and the "I'm offended after spewing racist/prejudical posts that someone whould GASP! call me on it!!" BS that keeps showing up here.

The whole point of this post was to point out the stupidity and hypocricy of the House bill that fortunately looks like it won't pass. How the very people that are a'hootin' and a'hollerin' about all these "illegals" are, by and large, people who's CLOSEST approach to them was in squeezing a friggin' cantaloupe at Safeway. These are the same people who WILL scream bloody murder when lettuce DOES cost $7 or $8 a head. When businesses begin leaving their community because they simply cannot compete, when the lawns in your goddamned gated communities go unmowed...

It's about hateful, spiteful people who's only joy comes in whipping up an emotional froth in the uneducated, misinformed...

And it's about a political party, now realizing that Americans are NOT buying the line of crap about Iraq anymore and are desperate to divert their constituency's attention from this - before those folks realize that the last five years have been ALL ABOUT the fat cats getting FATTER at the expense of our young men and women in Iraq...

That's the friggin' INSULT RJ...

Alethinos

PS the DEMOCRATS suck too - gutless f****** bastards.

Gee, Alethinos, and I thought I was pissed off about Israel...

The fact is that migrant labor proves that the idea of an inflated 'living wage' is an utter myth. By economizing and living collectively migrant workers can live on $3 an hour and send money home to Mexico to boot.

Dave,

That is the same kind of mentality that is killing Israel. People don't want to do stoop labor here because they can find an Arab to do for cheap.

You call them migrant workers. We call them Arabs. You talk about economizing but if we hire Arabs for cheap, we're called racists and Zionist exploiters.

But in the meantime, and far more important, the idea that work is honest and doing it is honest gets degraded in both your country and mine.

It may be that lettuce should cost $7.00 a head in your country. And vegetables, dirt cheap here, maybe should be more expensive. A man should be paid a decent wage for his work.

Just thought I'd add this point. I just got back from the store doing Sabbath shopping. Because we're near broke, I had to stretch each shekel (21¼¢)as far as I could. The vegetables I bought cost us NIS 26.75. We didn't buy lettuce, though. I don't like the stuff, unless it folds and says NIS 200 on it. It also bothers my wife, who has a pre-ulcerous condition. And don't even think about it. She had the pre-ulcerous condition long before she met me.

The vegetables should have cost about 5 times what they did to provide a living wage to those who stooped down and picked them. That gives you an idea of how labor and laborers are now exploited in a country that used to be a model of syndicalist socialism.

Tzédek tzedek tirdóf. "Justice, justice shall you pursue." What a f**kin' joke!

Jet....

I wasn't aware that the pilgrims wrote the declaration of independence and constitution.

Seems as if we're arguing about two different sets of people.

If you want to keep insisting that those who wrote these documents weren't predominantly Christian that's fine, but you're wrong.

Arch, the subject was lettuce!

1. The DEBATE was whether or not the pilgrims left Europe for the free world to escape the monarchy's oppression.

2. They wrote the Mayflower Compact, NOT the Constitution

3. You only hear what you WANT to hear, and disregard the rest, and it's sensless to argue with you.

4. The debate was NOT whether the constitution was written by Christians, it was whether the purpose of the constitution was to establish Christianity as the United State's official religion.

INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT-WHY DON'T YOU GO EAT SOME $7 LETTUCE, OR FIRE THE MEXICAN MAID YOU'RE ONLY PAYING $3 AN HOUR!!!!


Jeez

NO.. the debate was wether or not this nation was founded by Christians, which it was.

You're the one always changing the subject.

You attack me as being a bible thumper before I even mentioned the bible and then start quoting from the bible to me in a most condescending way.

I responded with another biblical quote which you are so obviously ignorant of and you just ignore it and start talking about the pilgrims again.


I never claimed that the Constitution's intent was to establish a Christian theocracy. However it is the truth that it was written by Christians who relied on Judeo Christian values in writing it.


Also if you want to discuss the Pilgrims I'd be more than happy to but they are not considered to be our founding fathers. The poeple of the time of Washington, Jefferson, Adams and Madison are, as Nancy pointed out.

AC,

The people who wrote the founding documents of your nation were all nominally Christian, baptized into one church or another. But as to their philosophies, they were primarily deists who admired the Seven Commandments of Noah.

The "Pilgrims" were a whole different set of people who arrived a century or more earlier, dealing with their issues that they had with the Established Church in the mother country. And from what I read, the way they dealt with those issues was through religious intolerance of their own. The founder of Rhode island and Providence Plantations, on the other hand, believed in religious tolerance.

Even I learned this stuff in, what was it, 5th grade?

And all that is wonderful, just wonderful. Really!

But what does all this have to do with stooping down and picking lettuce or yams or potatoes? Or the justice in underpaying those who do the stooping down?

You know, justice and equity as opposed to mere profit?

LETTUCE-LETTUCE My KINGDOM for a head of LETTUCE!

We could come up with any number of logical statementsa about anything, and they'd be completely ignored...

Why bother?

JET... If you're gonna quote the Bard get it right! It's:

Arugula! Arugula! My kingdom for fresh Arugula!

(Richard III,V,iv,7-14, The Snooty Salad Edition, 1612, Oxford)

Alethinos

I humbly stand corrected, sir. I was gonna use that but when I typed it, I couldn't convince myself that it was spelled right.

They have nothing to do with one another Ruvy.

However the idea that if we didn't have illegals performing menial agricultural tasks in America lettuce would be $7 a head is inane.

It's part of the whole bogus "illegal immigrants are the backkbone of the American economy argument."

Don't fret Jet... I have read another translation, one that is clearly attributed to the "true" writer of these plays, yes, I refer to Sir Brussels Sprout, that has it, "My kindom for leafy spinach, finely chopped!" But I have never accepted this...

Good God where the hell is the coffee...

Alethinos

AC, just for the heck of it, I reread tha article written by Alethinos. It is about the crappy treatment that immigrants and non-white individuals in particular who do stoop labor, receive at the hands of the establishment.

It is also about how the "big businessmen" prefer to screw over people whose English is poor, figuring that if they are too stupid to speeka da Ingles, they are also too stupid to multiply - and about how he got fired for doing the just and equitable thing by these workers.

Illegals didn't figure into the article at all, and the founders of the country didn't either.

Speaking as a former manager in a Burger King who interviewed and dealt with many Mexicans and Central American workers, both English speaking and not, I can generalize and state two things. For the most part, they worked damned hard and well and efficiently, and those trusted with working the till could multiply and figure change in their heads - something that the white suburban teenagers we hired could not do - and probably still cannot do.

When high schoolers can't multiply 9x3 without a calculator, there is something very wrong with the educational system in Minnesota.

I've noticed that people from poor countries are usually very good at figuring money. I wonder why? Could it be that they don't have a lot of it?

I now am in much the same position as the Mexicans and other foreigners I used to supervise. I look at bank documents and struggle with trying to get past the first line, let alone figure out the legalese. And mind you, I've worked at learning Hebrew.

I see the exploitation of poor people here, both new immigrants, and those without a university education, and it stinks just as bad as the exploitation of non-English speaking workers did in the States. I see it in the bitterness of those not only who are Arabs, but in the eyes of the Jews here who are treated with contempt by their "betters" - the rich Askenazim who sup contentedly in Tel Aviv restaurants on Friday night, enjoying shrimp cocktails and pouring contempt on their own people, as well as the laws that G-d gave them.

As poor as I am, I should be paying a lot more for the vegetables in the supermarket - and I know it.

I look at the vegetables I buy and wonder how the people who stooped down to pick them were paid. Did their employer try to cheat them because they were Arabs? Did they themselves piss on the vegetables because they knew that they were going to a Jewish supermarket chain? Contempt and evil can go two ways, but it most often starts with a rich man cheating a poor one.

Waitaminnit - ?! You mean where you all live lettuce DOESN'T cost $7 a head?

Dave Nalle says: it shouldn't be illegal to seek a better life for yourself and your family. That's inherently inhumane.

By what principle does your magnanimous charity stop at the southern Mexican border, or the Panama canal, or the Atlantic Ocean for that matter? I don't think you would like your humanitarian concern to be seen as discriminatory in nature. And so I am sure that you would not want to limit access to American opportunity and welfare only to those favored, by a geographical accident of fate, to enjoy an easy commute to our border. I will believe that you are not just a pragmatic hypocrite when I hear you advocating that we allocate a few billion a year to reach out to all the poor "huddle masses" in Central America and South America and Africa and Asia, ferrying them to our shores by the hundreds of millions.

Richard, Nalle's hypocriticalness knows no bounds as he wants to let everyone in, yet expects to receive tax cuts rather than spending that money on the services illegals use. But then from what I've read he doesn't completely think through most of his positions, so it's understandable.

Ohhhh GREAT! I was just getting used to fungible, now I have to deal with "hypocriticalness"????? I'd look it up, but I'm terrified I'd see Arch the con man's face there.

Ignatius, 'hypocriticalness' isn't a word. The word is 'hypocrisy'. And I never said anything about balancing tax cuts against services for illegals. If illegals are legal and taxed then they pay their own way and they don't become a burden on the system. They're only a problem so long as they're illegal and underground and out of the economy and off the tax rolls. Change that and the problem goes away. That's the kind of answer you come up with when you DO think things through.

And Richard, it's not an issue of charity, it's an issue of what we define as a crime and how severe a crime we consider their actions to be. Is crossing the border to earn a good living a crime on the same scale as murder? Is it comparable with rape? What's an appropriate punishment for such a crime? Execution, perhaps? Trying to make crossing the border a felony punishable by an extended stay in prison is disproportionate to the severity of the crime. By an objective standard just moving across an imaginary boundary certainly isn't a crime against any of the basic, fundamental rights we enjoy in this nation. They're universal rights which even Mexicans are entitled to. Crossing the US border without permission is just a violation of an arbitrary administrative statute which exists for practical convenience rather than in service of any great principle. We can afford to be understanding and perhaps help these people out at the same time as we help ourselves rather than overreacting insanely.

Dave

"These are the same people who WILL scream bloody murder when lettuce DOES cost $7 or $8 a head."

That's the problem. Lettuce will NOT cost "$7 or $8 a head" if ACTUAL AMERICANS are doing the picking.

So, your entire premise is horribly flawed. And when this is pointed out to you, your response has been personal attacks.

Calling people "twits" or "racists" isn't an argument; it is, however, pretty much an admission of defeat on any logical grounds...

Good lick finding some actual Americans to pick lettuce at $3 an hour, RJ.

Dave

RJ! I am SO proud of you! You're able to recognize that WORDS, even those such as TWIT, arent' actual "arguments"! You're well on your way to a richer and more fulfilling intellectual world!

No, I'm afraid Americans will NOT be picking lettuce for $3 per hour, or even the federal min., wage of $5.50. Why? Because no one can live on that kind of wage really, and if you're forced to make only that kind of money - well you still don't want to do BACK BREAKING STOOP LABOR when there is other demeaning work that could be done that doesn't require a COSTCO size bottle of Ibuprofen.

Not only that but the prejudicial nature still lingering everywhere keeps a lot of "White" people (who's own pedigree would likely wouldn't cut it at the WESTMINSTER KENNEL DOG SHOW let alone a "Who's Who" list) wouldn't be caught DEAD working along side Mexicans. I know. I've HEARD hundreds of times, "How can you work with them?!" I patiently point out that they're really great folk, polite and loyal and amazingly hard working. Of course there are those that are trouble makers but SHOCK! there are WHITES that are troublemakers too! Let's condemn the whole friggin' WHITE RACE because of a few terrible individuals...

I don't have the time to take you by the hand RJ and SHOW you where the arguments were in all these posts. However, you can pick up a copy of REASONING FOR DUMMIES at Borders for less than $20.

Best of luck. And the words are rarely more than two syllables!

Alethinos

Dave Nalle: What's an appropriate punishment for such a crime? Execution, perhaps?

The crime you are talking about is violating Federal immigration law - trying to cut in ahead of people like my son's wife from the Dominican Republic, who is RESPECTING that immigration law, and having to jump through an incredible maze of regulatory hoops, and climb over incredibly high mountians of bureaucratic paper work, and patiently wait LONG periods of time, to become an American citizen.

The appropriate "punishment" is not execution, not "extended prison time disproportionate to the nature of the offense", it is simply a FREE RIDE back to where they came from and belong, with instructions on how they can apply for American citizenship in accordance with the laws of the United States.

What is most certainly NOT appropriate to the offense would be no consequences whatsoever, thereby REWARDING these law breakers, and betraying all those people like my daughter-in-law who are trying to do it the right way. If SHE were found to be defective in HER compliance with immigration law, in the most obscure little detail, SHE would not be allowed to stay in this country!!!! SHE would be asked to go back where she came from, and they wouldn't care what kind of a hardship it might place on her, just so long as she got OFF of American soil. Are illegals worthy of kinder more accomodating treatment than she is?

And then we read the following ludicrous and credibility self-undermining statement:

Crossing the US border without permission is just a violation of an arbitrary administrative statute which exists for practical convenience rather than in service of any great principle.

Crossing the US border without permission is a violation of a Federal law, established for the great principles and non-arbitrary purposes of:

a. limiting immigration to an accomodatable number so that population growth can be orderly and manageable (with the kind of a completely open and uncontrolled border that you want there would be nothing to prevent hundreds of millions from pouring in)

b. to prevent drug smuggling, and gang/terrorist infiltration, for the protection of American citizens.

"The problem goes away" when the Executive Branch EXECUTES its sworn duty to UPHOLD and enforce the laws of the United States of America.

Well crafted immigration law would also prevent your Dominican friend from having to jump through so many bureaucratic hoops, just as it would prevent the workers who harvest our food from having to risk their lives crossing the trackless wastes of the southwestern deserts.

Unfortunately, there is no corporate sector actively bribing Congresscritters to enact a well crafted immigration law.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Many corporate sectors are quite happy with the hellish state of our current immigration practices, because such a chaotic and dehumanizing situation provides many avenues for the unscrupulous to profit from human misery.

Last night I saw on 20/20 a story of two illegal immigrants who crossed over here 20 yrs ago in Calif..they both got up every night 7 days aweek at 130 am and went out picking garbage cans for cans and bottles ..they had bags tied to the handlebars of their bikes and collected the cans and bottles and made 20 or 40 dollars a day this way..but that is only half of the story ..they raised four kids and put them all through college ..they demanded good grades from them and when one of them got bad grades they took him with them picking the garbage and told him this is what you are going to do if you do not get a good education..the kid got the message and went on to get a masters in engineering and has a job now paying big bucks ..and all the kids are now making big bucks and contributing to the betterment of this country..Now how was this family a drag on our society..
Fifty year ago I worked on the railroad as a fireman I was 20 yrs old and I was making $300 a week for doing nothing but sitting on my ass on a diesel engine ..(that called it featherbedding back then )but they could not get rid of us because we had a powerful union..I was drafted into the Korean war and they had to keep my seniority going so when I got out of the Army I had my featherbedding job and it paid me big bucks because a fireman got the same pay as an engineer with 50 years of service ..I was on a work train outside of Joliet Ill and we where laying track and the Mexicans where doing the labor..that was my first experience with how they had to live because the railroad provided them with living quarters ..A BOXCAR ALONG THE SIDE OF THE TRACK..they worked hard and raised their families ..never once did I see them complain but we the featherbeddings where always complaining about how the Government is trying to take our jobs away..the point is I was born in the right place and they where not ..now some here would say send the VERMIN back to Mexico ..I had nothing but compassion for them ..years later I became a big contractor because my job was so easy on the railroad (making 600 bucks a week in 1960..I now had two jobs making big bucks and I worked along side all these Mexican Illegals doing the drywall work because this was too hard for the whites to do ..they also did not complain and worked very hard ..their workmanship was superior to that of the whites ..oh Blacks where not allowed to do this work either ...the blacks had a hard time breaking into the construction business back then ..The whites kept them out ..isn't this a wonderful democracy...
So Arch and Nancy and a few others learn to have some compassion and be thankful you where born on the right side of the tracks ..You are where you are today not because you are so smart ..You where just born on the right side of the tracks..
Thank you Alethinos for this article and thank you Dave for the knowledge you bring to the debate and also Jet and a few others ..and Ruvy I always enjoy what you have to say

You're welcome Georgio

Beautifully put Georgio... And thanks too to big Vic Plenty!

Alethinos

Great autobiographical insights, Georgio. I think we now know why railroads are dying out in America as well. I can't believe you got paid $300 a week 50 years ago. My dad wasn't making that much working for the State Department with a Masters degree back then.

Dave

Yes Dave it was a blessing and a curse at the same time ..Because I was making so much I said why go to college ..what a mistake ..I could make even more than that because you could work as much you wanted to and we where getting the same pay as an engineer who was there 50 years ..crazy huh..

Very well put, Georgio. And you are welcome.

You can always go back to college later, Georgio. When I was in grad school and then later teaching college I ran into a lot of older students and they seemed to get more out of the actual educational aspects of the experience than the younger ones did. They may not have had as much fun partying, however.

Dave

I don't think at 75 I would enjoy college Dave ..the kids drive me nuts with their cell phones stuck up their asses not to mention the loud music that they dig..I now paint landscapes and was a Charter Captain on Lake Michigan until I got too old for it....But I have not lost my love for what is going on in the world and this site keeps me well informed ..I have learned a lot from you even though we are on opposite sides of the fense I have found you to be pretty even headed and very informative,

I want to remind everyone what this article is about - treating legal immigrants who are already in your country with respect and decency. This doesn't require well crafted immigration law - it requires a better crafted sense of decency and respect.

"That's the kind of answer you come up with when you DO think things through.

Haha, you haven't thought things through at all; you just stopped at a point that works for you, but you don't see the larger picture. The new batch of illegals would just replace the old ones, so you haven't solved anything except the need to remedy the situaion right now.