I have just as much a problem with this as I do with those suggesting the city of New Orleans (my home) suffered the disaster of Katrina as divine retribution for its support of Mardi Gras and its hedonistic culture in general. Ignorance is worldwide, apparently.

JP,

Some of what I write here may touch sore points, given that New Orleans is your home. Please do not take offense - none is meant.

I'd have you bear in mind that this is a news item rather than an opinion piece. That said, it used to be the norm that when people faced difficult weather or plagues, they turned to G-d for guidance and they repented their sins. You write,

"Ignorance is worldwide, apparently."

The classic argument for ignorance being the cause of turning to G-d in the face of a plague is in the history of the Public Health Service of New York City.

During the 19th (Christian) Century the city of New York faced several bouts of the bubonic plague coming over from Europe, along with typhoid. At the opening of the 19th Century, the mayor called upon the citizenry to pray when the first cases of bubonic plague hit the city. As ther century progressed, the calls to prayer grew fewer and fewer and the measures to improve sanitation, greater and greater. All this coincided with the development of a good public health service, and the introduction of such elementary measures as hand washing and the like. By the time the end of the 19th Century rolled round, a woman who was infected with typhoid was isolated and quarantined - known as "Typhoid Mary." Kids growing up in Brooklyn when I did all knew about Typhoid Mary.

You can bet that plenty of Israelis discussed Hurricane Katrina from the viewpoint of Divine punishment.

The issue was not the hedonistic lifestyle of the city in their eyes - after all, New Orleans had been known as the "Big Easy" for decades. Were it merely an issue of hedonistic lifestyle, Divine punishment would have come far earlier. The issue, as many Israelis saw it, was the coincidence of the expulsion of Jews from Gush Katif.

At about the time that Katrina hit your city, a secular writer here, Barry Chamish, said he saw letters on the wall which seemed to align Gulf (of Mexico) with Gush and Katrina with Katif. He sent out an email, saying "I don't understand this."

Chamish is not a man given to believing in Divine intervention.

The day that Jewish graves were being removed from Gush Katif was the same day that people reported coffins floating in New Orleans - at about the same time of day. It wasn't hard to relate the 10,000 homeless from Gush Katif to the more than 100,000 homeless from your city. The parallels were eerie.

So why the punishment? The United States had pressured Israel to give up land that was part of the country, and there was to be punishment for it to come down upon those who put the squeeze on the Jewish state to pull out.

But even that would not be enough to explain the storm, in my opinion. In my opinion, your country had a blessing from G-d. Its beginning dated from the Battle of New Orleans in 1815 - after the War of 1812 had ended - and extended 190 years to the days that Hurricane Katrina devastated your city. That marked the cancellation of the blessing.

Now to return to the bird flu.

The hatred spewed by the imam in Gaza, in my opinion, will only work against him in the end. The anger vented by Baruch Marzel upon the secular kibbutzniks who are losing millions due to flock culling misses the issue.

The bird flu is world wide. The entire planet has been seeded with H5N1 and its related strains of influenza. If this is the Hand of Providence you see, then this or that particular town will mean little if there are tens or hudreds of millions dead. The issues being raised are far bigger, and extend way beyond the borders of my tiny country.

That is my opinion.

So if Katrina and the bird flu are God's punishment for people having a land dispute, I can only imagine what the dinosaurs must have done.

Interesting thought, Lori. We do not know what the dinosaurs did, other than evolving into all the niches that mammals now occupy.

That might have been problem enough. Who knows?

If the Hand of Divine Providence is to be seen in the bird flu, though, it would far more than a dipute over a few dunams of land. The issues will be much much bigger.

Maybe I'm wrong about that too. Heck, no onoy am I not a prophet, I'm not even a profit...

Ruvy, I'm not qualified to discuss the evacuation plan or Gush Katif, but in what I read from Wikipedia (for general background only) I see the area is disputed, and the coincidences you mention are much more acceptable to me then the general Pat Robertson-esqe nonsense spewed in the States. In fact they're something I'd like to explore further--I give some credence to synchronicity and coincidence, not so much that I automatically assume causal relationship but enough that I should read about it further.

I don't dispute that natural disasters have long been cause for people to turn to God, whether to repent or to blame. Nor do I suggest that New Orleans was a sinless place, by far--however, growing up there, I also recognize that much of the local population is Catholic and reverent of God in its own way. The hedonists are not in the majority, but they get most of the attention. And I consistently point out to the CBN viewer types that if God was acting in retribution for sin, his aim was off--he missed the French Quarter.

Logistically speaking, New Orleans was on a lucky streak in my view since the late 19th century, when the swamps behind the central city were drained and inhabited for the first time. Most of the areas populated in 1880 or so didnt' flood, as an article in the local paper pointed out. The areas built after that did.

Is Divine Hand = Bird Shit?

One further thing--without having explored possible coincidences, and without knowing what may coincide with the potential future "outbreak," it's hard to "blame" bird flu on any specific country, at least in the sense of divine retribution.

Ruvy, thank you for your reply -- you are truly a gentleman.

Unfortunately, I'm not always so polite. :-)

I was being sarcastic about the dinosaurs and god's hand in any form of extinction, pandemic, flood, or other "act of god." I just don't believe in it.

The bird flu is nothing more than a virus. That's it. It's not divine retribution for anything.

When a virus mutates, nobody is responsible. When the bird flu virus mutates so that it can be passed from human to human -- which I believe it will do in the relatively near future -- no country or group of people will have been to blame for that mutation. That's just what viruses do.

And neither would god be to blame. If the judeo-christian god wanted to wipe out a bunch of people for behaving badly, why would he bother with such a slow process? The bird flu has been in the news for something like ten years. It's taken that long for it to become a bigger problem with worldwide implications. God could just smite us all with one fell swoop and dispense with the slow mutations of a virus.

Poor God; S/He/It gets blamed for everything, used as an excuse or justification for everything, the worse the better, by smug & sanctimonious and/or stupid/ignorant people all over. God doesn't have to do anything whatsoever to 'smite' humankind; we'll do it to ourselves long beforehand.

JP,

Just a thought about NO. Feel free to correct me on this if I'm wrong here. From what I understand, the city administration knew how vulnerable the city was to a major storm and had arranged to strengthen the levees - but the money was taken by the Feds and used in Iraq instead. So the city fathers were not really negligient, from that point of view.

In a different comment, I'll forward an e-mail detailing the uh coincidences between events in the expulsion of Jews from Gush Katif, and the awful storm that struck your city.

With respect to the bird flu, one opinion that I've heard consistently over the last year or so comes from Aryeh Gallin of the Root & Branch Assn. Ltd. Had this been an opinion piece, I would have certainly included it in the body of the article.

His view is that it may be very well true that this bird flu is Divine punishment - but on a much larger scale, and for much bigger things than a little land dispute in Israel. He has been following Dr. Henry Niman of Recombinomics, which I have consistently told you folks to refer to in articles about the bird flu.

Aryeh points to Isaiah 66:18.

"For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come that will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory."

Bear in mind that you cannot see G-d and live. Rashi, a Jewish scholar who lived in France about eight hundred years ago, interpreted the part in bold as meaning that G-d would use a plague to judge and to kill. Aryeh Gallin points to this coming pandemic as the plague that he believes will be the instrument of G-d.

Ruvy, no offense, but how is any of what you say different from giving a platform to an Islamist to harangue the West for it's sins and the doom and destruction that surely awaits us due to God's anger? Surely the Throne of Allah shakes as much as that of Jehovah

Lori,

Thank you for your kind words, In your comment you wrote,

"The bird flu is nothing more than a virus. That's it. It's not divine retribution for anything."

There is an old story about a group of scientists who had decided that the human race no longer needed G-d's help; so they went to Mt. Sinai to let Him know and thank Him for His services. G-d appeared in a cloud and listened to the good gentlemen as they explained themselves. He said, "Okay, what you propose sounds reasonable. I just want to run one test to see that you will be alright. I'd like you to create a man."

The scientists conferred among themselves, started to set up a lab, and said, "Sure, we can do that!"

They proceded to pick up some dirt from the ground and G-d stopped them.

"No, gentlemen, you need to use your own dirt."

That's the point, Lori. If G-d exists, then He created the viruses and the rules by which they, and we evolve. They are His viruses, as much as we are His people.

From what we know of how G-d runs the universe, he allows quite a bit of slack, and allows the rules He set in place to operate - thus you get imperfections which He tends to leave alone. But occasionally, He intervenes in some indirect way when things are deviating too much from His plan.

So an asteroid hits the earth and destroys almost all of the life on the planet, particularly the dinosaurs. G-d evidently wanted mammals to evolve further to rule the planet, and dinosaurs were just "in the way".

Did they do anything wrong? No, of course not! They were too stupid to do anything wrong. But they were deviations from the "program" that could not be tolerated. So the remaining dinosaurs evolved into birds. That, evidently, was okay. Tweet tweet. And they are G-d's birds.

So the H5N1 viruses go their merry way, reproducing and mutating happily along, and if we happen to die along the way - a few tens or hundreds of millions of us - it's not the virus's fault. The viruses are just an instrument in the Hand of a Higher Power.

Unlike viruses, songbirds and dinosaurs, we know right and wrong. And we can be called to account for our actions. We have evolved enough to the point that we can see and contemplate the whole planet and beyond. So we are capable of knowing the good and the evil before us. We can't plead ignorance - not to G-d, anyway. So we get called to answer. And it may well be that one of the summonses, so to speak, are the viruses causing the bird flu.

Not everybody is cut out to believe this. But I suggest keeping an open mind.

Just as well that there is still zero evidence to support the god theory then, don't you think?

Aaman,

Looking at this from your point of view, being neither a Jew, nor a Christian nor a Moslem, I could see where it would be somewhat amusing. In three corners of a ring you find people waving books at each other, each forecasting doom and destruction in slightly different ways.

Truth is that none of knows for sure which one of us is right. No matter how strongly we believe, there is always the million to one chance that the other guy could have the answer. Who knows? Maybe your faith has the answer and we don't.

Where Christians Jews and Moslems all do agree is that we are approaching the end game of our respective religions. The Mayan calendar ends in 2012. A number of Native Americans have been predicting all sorts of disasters in the near future. I don't know about Buddhists or Hindus. And when I don't know, I tend to shut up.

Well, the fun in life is finding out who is right - or if none of us are right. And the risk is not surviving to find out.

" So many speaking for G-d. So few listening to Him."

Quoted for Truth

Excelsior!

Gonzo,

Out of all the 60 odd comments on the Ynet story on Baruch Marzel, that was the one that made the most sense. It sounded like a great ending for an essay.

In a sense, it's amusing that Humanity considers itself to be the center of Divine Attention, when you consider it's just as likely that God actually favors beetles or viruses; as Darwin said, S/He made so many of them.

Nancy,

You wrote, "Poor God; S/He/It gets blamed for everything, used as an excuse or justification for everything..."

That is not how I read this - either the news piece or the opinions I gave afterwards. It isn't that G-d gets blamed for disasters. It's that we are supposed to have enough sense to comprehend that G-d might be mad at us for something.

If I really wanted to be small minded, I could expand on ther fact that the Moslem imam kind of ignored that Moslems might have something to answer for because of the bird flu hitting in Gaza a while ago. But I won't.

It seems self evident. Baruch Marzel wasn't blaming G-d for anything. He was saying that the kibbutz residents needed to understand that they were suffering a huge financial loss because of the loss they had caused fellow Jews in their actions last year. They were getting paid back measure for measure. G-d wasn't being blamed. The kibbutzniks were.

Was he right? Maybe.

Consider. In 1991, about 3 dozen Scuds hit this country from Iraq. Nobody was killed. But plenty of damage was done. Among the places wrecked by the Scuds were three separate Super-Pharm stores. One of the papers had an article asking why Saddam Hussein was mad at Super-Pharm.

It turns out that the Super-Pharm chain had decided to open its stores on the Sabbath prior to the war. Was Saddam Hussein mad at Super-Pharm? Of course not! Could Someone Else have been mad at Super-Pharm? Maybe.

The idiots haven't learned though.

"Just as well that there is still zero evidence to support the god theory then, don't you think?"

Amen to that.

"The bird flu is nothing more than a virus. That's it. It's not divine retribution for anything. .. God could just smite us all with one fell swoop and dispense with the slow mutations of a virus."

Brilliant point, Lori. Attributing God's hand to the actions of a virus or a flood implies that a virus or a hurricane is the best God can do.

Surely, like any other parent, if God was giving punishment, he'd make His presence known on his own, no speculating from hateful priests/clerics/rabbis needed?

Maybe I'm just not cut out to believe that the divine force behind the world(if there is one) smites people for political decisions made hundreds of miles away.

If God is truly displeased at the lifestyle in New Orleans, why didn't he make the french quarter his target? If God is furious at our policy in the Middle East, why doesn't he attack Washington?

Or -- here's a thought, maybe go the direct route: A burning bush in the oval office? Or is that beyond his capability?

Merlin

Well, at least you have a bush in the oval office, that's close enough:)

ok...so how many angels can dance on the point of a needle - and what dance might they be doing - ?

troll

I suggest keeping an open mind. It bears repeating, especially for you, Merlin. There is more to the universe than your assumptions. And the majority of your comment is a demonstration of your close-mindedness.

The news piece is about how two individuals - not the first, I'm sure, have invoked G-d in one way or another in the wake of seeing thousands of fowl die and while fearing that millions of humans may die.

There is more to the world than merely appears at first blush - like those four Super-Pharm stores destroyed by the Scud missiles in 1991. lik how coffins floated in New Orleans at the same time that Jews were disinterred from their graves. Thsoe are just two examples of hundreds of events that appear to be coincidences.

When you find a coin in the street, it is a coincidence. When you find two coins in the street, it also is a coincidence. But three coins stacked one upon another? This is no longer coincidence.

And looking at events in the world though cetain lenses demonstrate that their timing are not cincidence either.

But to even see that this is possible, you need an open mind.

Having an open mind does not mean giving equal time to reason and sophistry. Even the bible understood this:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
(I Thessalonians 5:21, AKJV)

Having an open mind is an obligation to seek the truth. It's a call to actually find truth in the place of comforting illusion or appeals to ignorance.

"Well, at least you have a bush in the oval office, that's close enough:)"

lol! good one. :-D

Merlin

I hardly ever, almost never, agree with Nancy but she nailed it this time. God doesn't have to do anything... we'll do it to ourselves.

Aaman - I'd rather keep the bush OUT of the Oval Office, but my side was outvoted. ;)

Whether it be New Orleans or Super-Pharm, some people look at natural disasters, coincidences, and other events as mere chance. Others, like myself, are open to the idea that there might be something more powerful than ourselves at work. The Celestine Prophesy is a good book to read on the subject, attacking this from the "coincidences aren't just mere chance" angle--could they be God's way of communicating with us? People often refer to waiting for God's "calling" to tell them what to do with their lives, but never seem to hear anything. It's not outside the realm of possibility that they're just missing the signals.

Unfortunately you can never prove these conjectures. You can either accept them as a possibility or deny that possibility. I choose to keep an open mind, even when it comes to my hometown. I like to think it's unlikely, and my initial response is usually negative particularly when the Pat Robertsons of the world make such suggestions in a tactless manner, but it's not beyond reason.

"God leveled your house, kiled your neighbours, and reduced you to the mercy of an impotent 'aid' organization because he wanted to send a message.

We aren't sure what the message is, yet. We're not even sure it is from God."

Could you tell me what the tactful way to say that is? Much less the way that doesn't make God look like a mad tyrant - or just a spoiled brat.

Have enough faith to know that if God wanted to send us a message, he'd have the decency to John Handcock it.

Merlin

"Having an open mind is an obligation to seek the truth. It's a call to actually find truth in the place of comforting illusion or appeals to ignorance."

How true.

Also true is this saying. "To a Jew, his calendar is his catechism."

The sources of information I've drawn upon are, unfortunately, beyond the grasp of most of the readers on Blog Critics.

The vast majority of people hitting this site do not understand, for example, how the Hebrew calendar works, or its origins, or its significance in viewing the events occurring around them.

Nor can they be expected to understand that the Torah is not a novel, as some readers here have been so foolish enough to suggest. It is more like a key that ties together many of the pagan histories of the ancient Middle East.

A non-Jew cannot reasonably be expected to look at history through the eyes of the Hebrew calendar. It is enough work to get Jews to do so.

Part of the data I've pulled from are from books that I do not presently have in hand, and which in my opinion have certain difficulties in themselves in terms of some or the data that they present.

In addition, much of the relevant data is in Hebrew - a tongue completely foreign to the vast majority of readers of this site.

A good technical work in English to begin with is The Comprehensive Hebrew Calendar, by Arthur Spier, z"l. The revised and expanded edition I possess covers the dates between 5660 and 5880 - or 1900 to 2100, and allows the reader to correlate Hebrew dates with Christian ones for that period. But that is mainly for such pedestrian purposes as tracing birth dates, dates of death and the like. The important part of the book is its detailed explanation of how the Hebrew calendar functions, and the listing which says which portions of the Torah were/are/will be read on particular Sabbaths over this 200 year period.

Pardon the typing error. The Comprehensive Hebrew Calendar, covers the Hebrew years 5660 to 5860, not 5880.

"Have enough faith to know that if G-d wanted to send us a message, he'd have the decency to John Handcock it."

Indeed when G-d sends a message with His signature on it, it is there to be seen. But you need to scan he event properly to see the signature.

Childish comments like the following:

"If G-d is truly displeased at the lifestyle in New Orleans, why didn't he make the French Quarter his target? If G-d is furious at our policy in the Middle East, why doesn't he attack Washington?

Or -- here's a thought, maybe go the direct route: A burning bush in the oval office? Or is that beyond His capability?"

only obscure meanings that might be derived from events by insisting on narrow interpretations of them and narrow expectations of cause and effect.

Troll, the issue is not how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or what dance they are dancing. The issue is why are they dancing, and who is paying what to the Piper?