Two Reasons why Palestine should be left to the wolves

* No oil in Palestine.

* Isn't the first one enough ? Then here are more

Palestine is a mess that the west created itself. Nobody except the Palestinians gain if the problem is solved. It helps deflect attention from tyrannical middle east autocracies such as Saudi Arabia ( Democracy is being supportive of Imperialism & Neo Conservatism, so we have one in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, but none in Iran.)

You're a little confused right from the off - you ask why the "democratic West" should support the Hamas government - but, erm, they've been democratically elected, haven't they? Either you want countries to decide who leads them through democratic means, or you don't. You can't be pro-democracy only when you like the results it gives.

For what it's worth, experience tends to show that the more extreme organisations start to tone down once they're given the chance to work through more formal power structures.

Piss off with your racist bias. You call this news? Try taking a fair and balanced approach next time.

BoP,

Nice article. I could say that the issues are more complicated than you have made them appear. But I'm not going to argue with someone who backs me up.

Your points - that an autonomous Arab state could have developed into a prosperous place briming with energy, trade, business and a future for all are the ones that need to be rubbed into the nose of every backer of dismantling Israel, or constantly blaming Israel for daring to exist.

The Arabs in Judaea and Samaria were sold a dream and lied to - by Al Fateh, and by the fools who put Al Fateh on their necks, the Israeli secularists - who have no conception at all of who they are, or why they are here. So out of disillusionment, they jumped from the flaming fry pan of Al Fateh into the fire of Hamas.

Thanks again for the article.

And this for Jim:

At the top of the article, it says OPINION - not news. BoP did not pretend to present a balanced account of anything. He said right up front that what you read were his views.

You don't like them? Find a counter argument. Can't think of one - move on.

if your enemy is democratically elected does that make him less your enemy - ?

'democracies are unlikely to attack their neighbors' = (ironic) axiom of US foreign policy propaganda and justification for 'occupations' and 'nation building'

I guess it will be a while before the speech writers cycle this one through what with Hamas and Iran in the news

Ruvy - what do you see as the final solution to 'the Palestinian question' - ? (short of divine intervention)

BoP - why did fellow Arabs leave 'the Palestinians' in desperate straights in the camps all those years other than to encourage the development of radical thought and action - ?

troll

Troll,

The present situation is untenable. Left as is, it will deteriorate ino chaos and violence. This could lead to several scenarios to change it.

1. The EU/NATO comes in to "restore order" in Judea Samaria and Gaza - and BTW impose its diktat on Israel for a peace, since they are in the neighborhood. Most of my scenarios lead to this resolution, in one form or the other.

This is not a solution, but that is besides the point. The power holders in Bruxelles and Washington don't give a tinker's dam whether we live or die.

In essence, the area would be under foreign occupation with puppet governments to make it look like sovereignty was maintained and the "will of the people" had triumphed.

The divine intervention is what comes in to overthrow this solution. That is what the Books of Zechariah, Daniel, and Ezekiel and the prophecies therein are all about.

2. A revolution throws out the Israeli government and a religious based regime offers to negotiate with Moslem clerics to solve the issue. This does have a slim chance of occurring, and is the one I've been pushing all along in these comment columns. This would be a solution, as it would deal with improving the lives of the Arabs here, as well as providing peace for all of the Children of Abraham.

Those pushing this solution would have to be porepared to fight outsiders - the EU/NATO - to make it work.

Ruvy - what would a solution based on 2. above 'look like' - ?

something of a 'one state' or federation idea - with some kind of 'jobs program' and economic aid (improved economic trade) - ?

troll

I'd just like to add a little bit of comparison and contrast observation I have made regarding the cultures of Israel and of the Palestinians.

When Ariel Sharon recently had his stroke there were smiling Palestinains cheering in the streets and hoping for his death.

When Yassar Arafat died I did not see any cheering, jubilant, Jews cheering in the streets.


NOw maybe the news coverage was biased and all of the cheering Jews were not covered and only the handful of Plaestianins were actually cheering and they got covered. Could be. But I'd say more than likely this is not the case.

I would just like to hear what others have to say about this.

Troll,

The money making angle - and yes there is at least one money making proposition buried in this - is something I'd rather not talk about for what should be obvious reasons.

You've seen all the rest outlined before in other comments elsewhere.

In short, the Moslems have to recognize our right to be here based on their Qur'an - and have to end their opposition to our presence. This means dealing with the Wahhabis.

On our side, we have to actually act like Jews and not lust after western culture.

We would be asking them - as a matter of fulfilling their faith - to accept us and assist us in building the land. In many cases, this would involve abandoning holings that are hundreds of years old. In return, we have to behave honestly as Jews AND see to it that they have decent livings - and help them establish a truly independent Arab state. The money making propositions come in here.

This proposal is revolutionary - which is why it would be so hard to pull off. I doubt that any of the so-called "right wing" here, or even the "religious" parties have the guts to suggest something as far reaching.

Territorially, there would be a Jewish entity from the Jordan to the sea - and an Arab entity stretching eastward to Persia as far as its military could manage. The Shia and Kurds would have to have autonomy, if not independence in order to make this work. Otherwise the Arab state would be unstable.

The Jewish entity would be a kingdom with regency council. The Arabs would have to decide for themselves the best structure to govern themselves in a stable fashion. For outsiders to attempt to dictate solutions would be an exercise in futility.

Yassar Arafat - Never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

The Palestinians - Driven by false hopes, peddled by self-serving, corrupt leaders.

Arab nations - suppressing dissent by creating external threats and hate.

The Rest of the world - inviting terrorism by rewarding Yassar Arafat with speeches at the UN

Israel - determined to protect it's children by ANY means (wouldn't you)

Saudi Arabia - stocking the fires of Muslim self-defeating, outrage with fundamentalist Wahabi theology

Future scenario - the war has started but is a long way from finished

its very easy for the west to say leave palestine and the third world to the wolves. then a whole can of worms will be opened in terms of more terrorism. if only the western nations will take a few moments to see past their noses they will come to the full realisation that the enemies out there are mostly a figment of the imagination and nothing more. we all admire the western nations a look to them as our beacons of hope.
the west has more blood on its hands than all the terroists combined and it is mostly inflicted on the smaller impoverished nations, by supporting brutal dictators whom lived in the laps of luxury while the populace in squalor. ask mr. kissinger about this.
the big stick method days are certainly over, and the oppressed is now striking back, with the likes of chavez, castro, bin laden, hamas, mugabe.

AC - IMO Israelis are far too cynical for that...the days of jubilant folk dancing on the kibbutz are long gone along with the early dreams of social justice

people tell me that a common response there is to grit teeth and spit on the ground at the mention of Arafat

less public but equally spiteful

perhaps Ruvy can fill us in

Ruvy - despite being rationally an agnostic and emotionally an atheist I admire your plan as being the most positive that I've heard for the area

troll

Nicholas,

I hear what you are saying. In its colonialist practices and dictatorships, the west has more blood on its hands that it is willing to realize. Yet with its technology, it provides a beacon of hope to someone who could badly use 3,000 calories of decent food a day and literacy.

Admiring western technology and importing it is one thing. When looking towards it as a beacon of hope, you should consider carefully. Do you want to import America's ghetto scene and hateful racism? Do you want to create yet another situation where an underclass does the work for an élite as occurs in Europe?

American and European political or cultural paradigms will not solve problems in the Middle East or South Asia. The solutions must come from within. We have the brainpower to help ourselves...

Present Israeli society has nearly abandoned its Jewish roots for a badly smudged copy of Euro-American drugs, sex and rock-n-roll. Having been brought up in America, this is something I can easily see. Our society will kill itself if not brought back from its derelect ways.

On the other hand, our technology and science is hard to beat in lots of areas. So walking away from Euro-American culture is a solution to a lot of our problems, while maintaining those ties necessary to keep our science and technology top notch.

Analogous solution hold true for the other folks in our "neighborhood".

Troll,

Thank you for the kind words. In all truth, a decade ago I would have laughed at these ideas as ridiculous. But the secular régime has had its shot and failed miserably.

AC, look at my piece here to understand why Israeli kids say "mavet l'aravím" (death to the Arabs) as a matter of course. If they scream this out loud at demonstrations, they will be arrested for incitement. In Israel, Arabs can sceam "mawt al yahúd" (death to the Jews) with impunity.

I have observed 2 things since 9/11.

1. The look on Arafat's face after the event. He was in shock... the press was with him, the world was giving him two thumbs up. Then Bin Laden strikes and all bets are off... That explains the scriptural definition of the sons of Ishmael (read it yourselves).

2. After Hamas is elected in Palestine the U.S. press (suddenly without warning) discovers what the term Democratic REPUBLIC really means. Up until that point it was always called (by the press) a democracy... I guess they learned that democracy can be a bad thing, if there are no guidelines for a democracy to operate within.

Hmmmm.

While I'm at it, let me share what two "laws" will always be present in the world.

1. Risk mitigation.
2. Economic theory.

Get used to it.

Should we pull the plug... I'll put it this way, Woodrow Wilson (and Balfour) didn't do anyone (on both sides of the issue) any favors.

And that's my 2centivos

a Semitic alliance protected by Israel's nuclear shield might be a stable geopolitical entity able to defend itself from the East and the West

troll

Well, it's 7:44 am here in Hawaii. I submitted this post at 11:00 pm last night. Looks like you have all been busy while I was asleep!

As usual I have posted my thoughts in part to generate the sort of comment-response and dialogue that has already begun. I value the comments and they always shape and reshape my thinking.

Ruvy, Your plan for a realignment of relations between Israel & Palestine on positive, mutually supportive terms has been my personal vision for over ten years. Such a benevelent approach by Israel would have gone a long way to win the hearts and minds of at least a majority of the Palestinian people (not to mention world opinion). If Israel had helped to build power plants, shared irrigation rights, promoted educational exchanges and enabled friendships between mothers and women IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE 1972 WAR then there might have been some hope of success with this approach.

Having responded only with the fist and with settlement politics for so long anything like this approach would now appear as weakness rather than strength and would be scoffed at and rejected outright by even the most moderate Palestinians.

I do, however, believe that there is some small shred of hope in conversation between religious Jews and traditional Muslim leaders. There is much in common that could be used to leverage some measure of spiritual understanding, cooperation and even compromise. Again, unfortunately, there are few Muslims left in the West Bank or Gaza who would be open to such dialogue and perhaps even fewer in Israel.

I have always felt that things must get worse before they can get better. I think the present situation for the Palestinians is heading downhill fast. If it were not for the spectre of Iran looming over the equation I would see this as a positive sign for a hopeful future.

By God's grace the continuing implosion in Palestine will begin to pose such a threat to Jordan, Egypt and the surrounding region that Arab leaders will be forced to step in and moderate the situation.

Hey! It could happen!

Actually, BoP, I'm not sure you comprehend my plan at all. It is not a plan that could have been implemented in 1973 or 1974 because the concept of Arab irredentism had to do with Arab nationalism and had no religious base at all at the time.

Nobody really recognized the role of the Wahhabi because they were not yet playing a visible role in international Arab politics.

In addition, in 1973-4, the gap between religious and secular Jews had not yet become the yawning chasm it is now - religious Jews still bought into the army, flag and state, and would not have been willing to countenance such ideas as I propose.

Secular Israelis still do not understand anything I'm talking about.

It is not a generous plan for the "Palestinians" - it is a settlement between Judaism and Islam that involves both undertaking to do what their respective religions call for so that both sides can respect one another and live in peace, and build a military and economic alliance that would work much the way Troll described above.

It involves building upon the original plan between H.E. Feisal, Sherif of Mecca and Medina and Haim Weitzman developed in 1919. And it would be costly for both sides in many ways.

World opinion would swing against this concept because of the degree to which the media is under the control of the American oil and banking establishment. This plan would not benefit them at all, dealing them out of major sources of revenue presently available to them. So, there would much bloodshed in attempting to implement this plan.

Amanda Roraback is right in her criticism of the Palestinians who often shoot themselves in the foot. I agree. I am no fan of Hamas either. But just a minute, Is Israel blameless.Is it whiter than white in all this.
Some quick soundbites (facts):
38 years of harsh military illegal occupation radicalised the people.

Israel, aided and abetted by the US refused to play ball with the secular leadership of the Palestinians.
They undermined the moderate Mahmoud Abbas, the accommodating chief of the PA.
Unilateral actions on the ground marginalised Abbas and boosted Hamas.
The withdrawal from Gaza, was done without agreement, Hamas claimed credit for it.
The Gate-crashing of the Jericho Jail was the last kick in the teeth for Abbas.

Now Israel and the world have to deal with this unattractive bunch.
Having said that Hamas ought to modify its stance and abandon its rigid ideologies and adopt a pragmatic approach and agree to recognize Israel and negotiate in good faith.

Israel must stop dodging, weaving and prevaricating.



nehad ismail
camberley england

the winning of the militant group Hamas was only due to the short sited Israeli policies,they[the israelis] helped in the almost complete radicalization of the Palestinean people by making them feel opressed,helpless and abused...secular palestinians were driven to a corner,their leadership was undermined,refugee issues were ignored ...etc. the expected result was the winning of whatever persons or organizations that are the most radical,fanatic,narrow minded and opressive.On hard times,all what is left for people is their religious faith[the more radical versions],they hope to die as martyrs than live a miserable intolerable life

The palestinians elected there government we are under no obligation to support them. its our money and if we choose not to give them our money we have the right to that coice just like they were free to choose there own government.

My husband is in Palestine right now. HE IS TRYING to Help the people by putting his own hard earned money into making the poor peoples lives a bit better. He is not a rich man, just a man of courage and feeling.
If one person can do this why can't the rest of us?
Don't sit on your asses and making negative comments and doing nothing.
Remember Hamas was voted in because everyone there is desperate and need support.
Many people despite watching the news day after day have no idea where Palestine is, let alone know anything of the relationship it has with Israel.
I saw the damaging of the British club so many times on the news, yet I am sure it was done to make an impact. Always it seems the Palestinians are to blame, yet it is the Israelis who have settled on their land, pulled up their Olive trees (source of income) and destroyed many homes.
The Palestinians end up living next to rich American Jews with swimming pools, whilst they have to fetch water from outside there homes.
The Israelis have weapons and the Palestinians have none, so they use themselves as weapons against Israel. No wonder they feel all that is left is martyrdom...

These comments are interesting from the outside looking in. The research I have done(just to find answers) shows the West Bank and Gaza were never palestinian land. Four thousand years ago, it was no man's land until Jews arrived. Only wandering Hitites(persians) occassionally crossed the land. Jews settled the land(as the only ancient building remains show) The Romans occupied the area then the Turks then the British then Jordanians. The Muslim religion didn't exist until three thousand years after Jews arrived there. If the Palestinians really want peace and their own state, they should try to get along and prosper with the Isrealies--who I'm sure would welcome them into the world of prosperity and success. After all, Palestinians and Jews are very closely related---they even name themselves after Jews--Abraham, Moses(MUSA)and Ishmael.

Rozrr,

Madame,

As I pointed out to BoP (the author of the article) in comment #4, issues are a bit more complicated than they appear immediately and at first blush.

To begin with, from the Arabs I've hasd contact with, both Fateh and Hamas were regarded as criminal gangs who stole money. The big differ3nce between Fateh and Hamas was that Hamas had not yet had its full opportunity to do so. Many regareded the elelctions as a joke and blamed Israel for burdening them with these criminal gangs.

Both Hamas and Fateh have pushed suicide bombings. You can't prosecute the suicide bomber. He/she is dead and can be praised as a martyr without worry as to what such a person might reveal under torture.

Arabs tend to be armed. At their weddings, it is very common to hear rifles fired in the air. I hear this in J-lem because I live close to 3 Arab villages.

The majority of Jews who live in Judaea and Samaria are not English speakers.

The conditions of Arabs in Judaea and Samaria is largely their own doing. They have been largely banned from Jewish towns and villages because they have chosen a path of sabotage and terror. This has killed whatever camaraderie that used to exist between the Jewish and Arab residents of Judaea and Samaria.

Why they have chosen this path is not as important as the fact that before the intifadas, and particularly before the Oslo Accords, there was a level of prosperity among Arabs in Judaea and Samaria. Thius prosperity no longer exists. Between the thievery of Al Fateh and the closures due to the terror they have sponsored, Arabs in Judaea and Samaria have become impoverished.

I'm sorry to say this, but this is the truth - not spoken in hatred but in regret.

Considering that once upon a time the Christians, Jews and Muslims all lived in that region peacefully until Zionist forces uprooted Muslims and Christians from their homes, taking over their towns and destroying their land....I don't think anyone should be left to the wolves. I can understand the frustration of those people. I'd want to vote for whomever I felt was doing something about it. I don't agree with what Hamas is doing, but at least they're doing something and that very well could be the only hope some people have.

Where can I start?-your statements are so blatantly biased that it is difficult to begin.However let's start with the corruption of former anti semite Arthur Balfour(pro Zionist after his meeting with Rothschild-rien ca change)-then lets proceed to the betrayal of the arabs after their efforts in getting the ottoman empire pushed back to Turkey.What about Sykes - Picot? For those who have driven from Eilat to the Lebanese border there is clearly plenty of land for all.The UK and French and ,of course the Yanks gave away land which was not theirs to give but it appeased them for their lack of action against German Attrocities in Europe. That is where the problem should have stayed.The aquisition of Israel was a long term strategy by Theo Herzl and his cronies against a small nation which was basically still in the middle ages -some still are.There is plenty of land for all in occupied Palestine-go take a look!So don't let's have this crap about the fight of Palestinians against a mighty occupier shored up by the might of a lunatic USA.

"Four thousand years ago, it was no man's land until Jews arrived."

Doesn't the Bible (which many Jews regard as history) say there were Canaanites living there until driven out by the Hebrews, because God told them to?

Have you taken a look at the Oslo agreement and the Paris Accords regarding Gaza's trade?

They can only go through Israel, and not Egypt!

Which... considering now that Israel has closed the gates in/out of Gaza... trade and commerce has ceased to exist.

Was Hamas prepared for that eventuality?

Or, will Hamas leverage the two agreements as further proof of the worlds intent to kill off Palastine?

Should the U.S. aid the Palstinians? Or, how would we and still circumvent Hamas? Through the PLO? Would Israel be party to that?

How about killing the Oslo and Paris agreements and trade through Egypt regardless.

There is the question of humanity to those people who are not part of the political process. Hamas may be a huge roadblock to success in the region, but subjecting the population to the horrors of poverty on a national level is NOT nation building.

What would Israel do?

Was Hamas started in Alexandria by the Mossad to work against the spectre of the PLO?

jes jeff
israel indeed supported HAMAS in the early 70's to work against the PLO, not politically and diplomatically but violently i suppose. just like the USA and Britain supported the Bin Laden, Pinochet, The Shah of Iran, Forbes Burnham, and other dictatorships. You see, back then the bullshit talk of democracy was not too important. But now that the violence has turned against them and causing lots of sleepless nights it is all wrong. Whwn in the name of GOD will these morons and idiots who make life and death decisions really learn the laws of physics about every action. When we encourage and support violence it will eventually turn and consumes us.

Joe Kelsall in #27 nails it!

Chest bump, high 5!!!

Read it, understand it... it's a documented fact... Jack!

And we're all sucked into the scheme vortex of almost 100 years ago!

Sharon: From Zionist to Traitor

Ariel Sharon sold out to foreign interests and brutally betrayed those who brought him to power. Ariel Sharon knew exactly how the Ishmaelites would act once they took over the homes and property of the 10,000 Jews violently expelled, rewarding terrorism.

Israel, Iran, and Purim

Death threats against Jews ultimately backfire as Purim teaches. Iran and their "Palestinians" allies would do well to heed or suffer the consequences. The election of Hamas shows the true colors of such people: Jewish blood red.

The only reason hamas was elected is: israel wanted it to happen. Israel could have deemed the hamas an illeagle enity. duh.
Israel doesn't want a responsible party to deal with So they can continue with impunity. It was arafat the whipping boy of the world, and now it will be hamas. You don't think the massad didn't know how the election would come out. duh
What will the final question of Palestine be solved? Don't they bleed when struck. Don't they cry when sad, Don't they laugh when happy.......Oh sorry that was the other guys

I do not agree . That would be a wonderfull victory for hamas. Actually just a few days ago the palestinian authority closed the Gaza Crossings , did let the bakeries run out of floor to boos a PR campaign against israel pretending they were the victims of the Evil Zionist Military Machine.

The Israel army did even theaten the palestinians to make food enter by force in Gaza in order to avoid hunger.

Arafat: The child who is grasping the stone facing the tank - is it not the greatest message to the world when the hero becomes a shahid?

If Gaza crossings were closed the one million palestinians would be turn into heroes. Into Shaeed. That would be arafat dream come true.
The palestinian question is above all a propaganda, PR war..., and the more the palestinians became victims in the eyes of the world the worst israel.
Give palestinian Pizzas but dont let they have hunger.
If that happens Israel will be in big trouble.

#35 state is not based on fact. The facts are: The israelis have closed the gaza crossing for security reasons. Halting trade and rotting vegetables leaving gaza and wheat not arriving in gaza are only secondary

The hamas flag is green and white.
I have a question? Please think before you speak. this doesn't apply to a specific country............what would you do if your house was bulldozed and your daugter, son, was shot by a soldier and the government acted with impunity?

When it all comes down to it the Palestinians are living under military occupation in their own country.Never mind the nonsense from Balfour about the Jews having a religious right to Israel. That right is based on the Old Testament which, if we are to believe it,says the world is only 6000 years old.This is absolute unadulterated bunkum as well they know it! In 1897 when Theo Herzl established Zionism he knew that sophisicated jewish professionals could run rings around the Palestinians.Thus his saying "buy their land-let them think they are cheating you on the price ,but buy it - we will never sell it back" When the Palestinians recognised what was being done to them land sales ceased and that is why with the help of the USA Israel has gradually eroded the rights and land of the indigenous Palestinian population by force and coercion.Now that Israel is the fourth largest military power in the world with a massive nuclear capability their arrogance will be increasingly difficult to control.As for human rights their own citizen Mordechai Vanunu, a christian convert, has to live in the sanctuary of St George's Cathedral in Jerusalem.His crime? Alerting the world to Israel's mighty nuclear arsenal.!

Joe,

I tell you what. All of us Israelis will move to Long Island, NY and New Jersey, kick out everybody else, and we'll have our own country there. YOU and yours, and all your ilk are welcome to live under the Arabs here.

If you live, you'll come crawling back to us on your hands and knees and beg us to take our land back.

PS Either way, we keep the nukes.

So, Joe? Whattya say?

"I tell you what. All of us Israelis will move to Long Island, NY and New Jersey'

Not a bad idea.

That is not an argument my friend!Now if you'd like to go back to Abraham,there was a meshugener. If he could have kept control of his wife Sarah all of this could have been avoided.As it was he threw poor Hagar out with little Ismael and thus created the first jewish domestic!Rudyard Kipling puts it far more eloquently in poetry, perhaps you'd like to look it up.As for you guys moving to Long Island that is really too much.There are plenty of apartments in Brooklyn judging by the number of Williamburg accents I heard in Palestine.They must be leaving New York in droves.Perhaps if you could get YAHWEH to open the Atlantic you could walk there, you know, just like the Red Sea! Now let's talk of your 'saviour' Athur Balfour- well as you probably know he introduced the 1905 Aliens Bill to keep jews out of Britain. He then met the world's richest man and became a 'born again' Zionist. Now there's a miracle don't you think. Now if I was a Palestinian who had to suffer the degradation of having my freedom decided by the whims of an Israeli soldier it would really piss me off. If I lived in Bethlehem'where many Christians live in harmony with Arabs, I would not like it if I could not travel six miles to worship in Jerusalem.Of course,if I additionally had a relative slaughtered in the camps of Sabra and Chatilla by Phalangists under the direct control of Ariel Sharon I would not be best pleased.Then to be emasculated by not being able to resolve this by ballot or argument in the land of my birth I would perhaps be of a mind to commit suicide.Do you get my drift. There are people in this City of Liverpool who were in Jerusalem when Menachen Begin assassinated 91 people in the British Officer's Club in the King David Hotel.That operation was organised by David Ben Gurion. Some people,myself included, might call that terrorism.Need I go on? The present intafada was caused when Sharon invaded the muslim Haram Al Sharif, an action that Sharon knew would cause a knee jerk reaction by the Palestinians.In fact, was deliberately designed to cause an hiatus in peace proceedings.So whilst you guys control the borders,the freedom of movement,the water supplies and the skies with American weapons perhaps it would help if you all moved to Long Island.If you have been to Palestine you will know that there is land enough for all. The Israelis have 'cherry picked' the best and denied Palestinians the right to march to the beat of their own drum.One day the Arabs will wake up and use the oil weapon to bring the world to its senses. Until then don't expect me respect your presumed right to treat them like recalcitrant schoolboys.There is no greater compulsion than mans' desire to be free.Think about it

joe

Could you summarize your speech in 25 words or less?

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Joe,

I live in Jerusalem. That is what the moniker is all about. Or maybe you think I'm just another kike waving papers around in the air?

Across the valley outside my mirpésset - you can look that up on Babel Fish - I can see at least two mosques not too far away, and another two in the distance. On a clear day, I can see the flat top of the Herodion south of town. How many mosques can you see?

About 100 meters walk from here, at the border of Jerusalem and Jebel Mukabr, on a clear day I can see the mountains of Yehudá, and the mountains of Moáv in Jordan.

Can you?

Now look at my posts on Blog Critics. Look up Ruvy in Jerusalem on the Leader Board. There are about 1,300 posts there at last count.

You will see that in my view (and the view of many like me), G-d gave us this land, not some British dipshit with a title. This land is ours because of our faith, our hard work, and the blood that we shed. The UN only ratified reality; since 1949, it has been trying to enforce delusions.

If we killed 100 Brits to chase them out of here, fine. I don't give a tinker's dam what name you give to the brave kids of the Etze"l who fought for the freedom of this country. What matters is what we do, not what you think. The British deserved to be driven out of here. They broke the promises they made - to everybody - and crapped on the peace that Sherif Feisal and Haim Weitzman reached in 1919. They deserved to lose their empire, and to be driven out of this country.

Jews and Arabs are people, not wogs - and now the British are learning that - painfully.

The day will come when the South Syrian Arabs who live here will come to understand the poison they have been fed by the Moslem Brotherhood, the Wahhabi and others who have manipulated their lives and fates, and who have hijacked the religion of their ancestors. They will truly understand the message of Islam and do their duty to help the Sons of Jacob resettle in this country. The day will come when the sons of Kedar will sacrifice at our Temple in Jerusalem - and there will be peace between the Children of Israel and the Children of Ishmael.

The day will come when you will either recognize how foolishly you write and think, and seek guidance from Jews in following the Seven Laws of Noah - or that G-d will educate you in another, more difficult way.

You are named (ultimately) after one of the wisest men in the Hebrew Bible. Try to live up to your name.

Ruvy,you said it yourself" if we killed 100 "Brits".Well,of course you know you did and its fine that you finally acknowledge that your country was established on "graft" (you know the sort)terrorism and corruption.Whatever you see out of your windows belongs to Palestine.Your people are in illegal occupation of their land.Of course we have mosques in England but the troubles we are inheriting like 9/11 and 7/7 have their roots in the ill treatment of muslims. You are an occupying force,you have no "right" to Palestine except that mythical,laughable Old Testament.Tell it to the marines (in Lebanon) buddy but don't expect rational people to believe your spiel!Shalom.

I was debating with myself whether to give you a peek at the future. It isn't pretty. But I decided to let you find out for yourself.

If you call the Hebrew Bible laughable, than I suppose you would call the Qur'an laughable. In the Qur'an the rights of the Children of Jacob (our moniker in the Qur'an) to this land are confirmed.

Enjoy your laughter, Joe. The future is rushing at you (and your people) and you do not know it. I wouldn't wish that future on my worst enemy.

Ok-I give up , I'll just have to wait for the future but I won't be worried about the Torah,the Q'uran or the Bible.Tragedy is that the injustices in Palestine are threatening world peace. I'll leave you with Kipling's thought on Abraham:
Yet he who bred the unending stife,
And was not brave enough to save,
The bondsmaid from the furious wife,
HE wrought thy woe,Jerusalem.
But Abram said to Sarai"Behold thy maid is in thy hand.Do to her as it pleaseth thee" And when Sarai dealt hardly with her she fled from her face. GenesisXV1.6. Now you guys wrote and believe this 'stuff', so give me a break for bringing it to your attention!By the way I somehow get the feeling that you think I am British?

For,neath the Rabbi's curls and furls,
(or scents and rings of movie kings)
The aloof,unleavened blood of Ur,
Broods steadfast on Jerusalem. ( Need any more?)

Comments editor. Why did you delete my comment #43? Started out agreeing with Ruvy #39 with his comment to Joe. Political correctnes comes to mind. It's a Muslim thing. Let us see no evil, here no evil, speak no evil and keep our asses in the dark like mushrooms when it comes tooooooo the Musssslim thing. For you saying FUCK, SHIT, FAGGET, NIGER AND PISS ETC ETC IS OK. Hey, thats political correctnes at it's best. NY sells magic carpets. Muslims feel free to board. Destination Meca and 70 something virgin attractive camels await your visit. Defeated and Deleted in Seattle.

sr: I found your remarks to be unacceptably offensive. You've been here long enough now to know that we don't censor vocabulary or ideas but we do edit out gratuitous personal attacks. There is no political correctness in respect.

I'm all for censoring any coverage of the country NIGER[sp]. Sorry, sr. You're outvoted.

I feel sorry that you felt it necessary to edit the comments of 'sr'.The very fact that he felt he needed to insult me is a degree of success.His spelling and grammar are a little unorthodox but that's ok I got his message. It's all about communication and having the balls to have your say. There are probably people in Israel who are sick to death of the pious right just as I am with the right wing Christian fundamentalist's of the deep south. You know, if you haven't worked in the deep south you will never fathom the depths of their ignorance. In Alabama Georgia, Mississippi and Louisiana,states of which I have personal knowledge, the poorest, most fascist white man perceives himself as being superior to say- Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Only the statutes have changed,the reality of segregation exists subliminally everywhere. Remind you of anywhere? Isn't it funny how history repeats itself.The day a British mandate came into force in Palestine the Arabs declared a day of mourning throughout the city-that date was September 11th!Now it's time for this old pensioner to take a nap but I'll leave you with a little Kipling:Then they were scattered north and west,While each crusade more certain made,That Hagar's vengeful son possessed, Mohamedan Jerusalem.

Hey Joe, No dought you will find this comment unorthodox. Not sure if indeed I insulted you per-say. I do not keep a record and since I was edited all comments are lost. Not all dem folk in the Southland, that be them their red states are ignorant. Now I remember. Since you worked in the South I think we picked cotton together. Remember old Joe Kelsall was a slow picker. Was that you Joe. Your name sounds French. Is it. Im of French ancestry. For sure I wouldn't brag on that comment. Yes I do live in the South. If you have read most of the comments on BC. Pit Bulls Go on Rampage you will find this kind of mentality I deal with each day. You can smell the ignorance and stupidity a mile away. What the freck. Almost sounds like Im in agreement with you Joe. Not so Joe. Hey, Im an unorthodox kind of guy. What else would you espect big guy. Will also agree that the poorest, and the most fascist white man/women perceives himself/herself as being superior to Dr. King. Thanks Joe for sucking me into the nasty comments headed my way. You little devil you. Of course the truly ignorant blokes cant read anyway. Mr. Dillon#51. You went right for the niger thing. Why? Joe, to be right wing doesn't mean your Christian. To be Christian doesn't mean your right wing, and for sure all right wing Christians are not fundamentalist's living in the South. Reuven is the man with the brains. To bad I cant buy some. Will leave now. Just remember Ruvy has the Nukes. Be glad and feel blessed Joe that I dont.
Shabbat Shalom. PS. My comments were deleted because Ruvy commented about crawling back on hands and knees. I could not resist the temtation. Think about butts, prayers, hands and knees etc. Joe, do you sell magic carpets or do we call them prayer rugs now. Let me know big guy. Always wanted to fly on one of them suckers. G-day.

Ah! You guys are killing me!Funny old thing about the cotton though:All of my life I have worked around cotton.Liverpool was the world's greatest slave trading city(if you can use that adjective about slave trading).Anyhow, I am old enough to remember when Gandhi visited the Liverpool area and was shown all of the 'state of the art' cotton processing machinery.After his visit he was asked what he thought of western civilisation to which he replied "I think it would be a very good idea!"Now that was a pretty brave thing for a pacifist to say which goes to show that you can't equate pacifism to cowardice.Dr King ,of course emulated Gandhi and like Gandhi was shot down by some 'red neck' in Memphis,Tennessee when he was supporting the local refuse collectors.JFK was shot by Oswald .and ,of course, Yigal Amir, another cowardly bastard, shot Rabin. Amir who was descibed as 'as Israeli as hummus pie' was trained by his rabbis and pulled the trigger for them. Poses the question of why the rabbis didn't do their own dirty, work which perhaps brings us back to Caiphus the high priest in Jerusalem when Pilate was forced to take the decision to have Jesus crucified for them! Am I boring you? Now let's come back to the old war horse Sharon.Chaim Herzog claimed that few of his officers had a good word to say about him! Does that mean they had more of a social conscience than Sharon-probably.So 'sr' you can get 'red necks' of all faiths and colours not just the nuts in the Deep South.And it cannot be denied that the many Christian fundamentalists in the Deep South act as Israel's safety belt. They have some peculiar notion that the jews are going to accept Jesus on judgement day.As Churchill said "Some notion-some chance!" So come on you guys,as the English say "Play the whiteman" now if ever there was an oxymoron that is it.Finally,it is unlikely that you ever picked cotton with me-though I have picked cotton with my daughter for fun.However, Ruvy may have passed me in Jerusalem.I used to stay at the Pilgrim's Place Hotel but now I prefer to stay within the city walls.I usually take breakfast near to Damascus gate and dinner at al Quds chicken barbecue shop.Suppose that will have to change with the bird flu thing!

sr,

Looks like there is more than one Joe Kelsall in the world, eh?

Good thing that Chris Rose is from Britain. Otherwise he might delete Liverpudlian (as in puddle of liver) as a personal attack. It isn't. It harks back to the ancient Roman name of the colonia (what the Romans called outposts) on the island's western coast. From all that I can gather, the good Mr. Kelsall has spent some time in Liverpool.

I have some errands to run, or I'd spend more time going after the good Mr. Kelsall and the fictions he peddles (or puddles). Don't think I'll be passing by the Old City walls today though.

A shame. It's been a while since I've been to the Western Wall to pray.

By the way, I personally don't have the nukes - wish I did.

No fiction Ruvy-it's all documented! As they say,bible and verse.I'll tell you what else is documented-the fact that Yehudi Menhuin called the Israelis 'the new Nazis' and that Einstein would not take leadership of Israel because of the inequitable deal for the Palestinians.They are heroes as is Daniel Barenboim and Rachel Corrie -remember her,murdered by being crushed to death by an IDF bulldozer.America is so free that they have censored a play about her courage citing bad timing as the reason.Running to packed houses in the UK.Another funny thing about the USA-spoke to Robert Fisk in Dublin he told me that in his 31 visits to the USA he has been 'random' strip searched 31 times.Just like in Israel!Thought you might like a bit more of Rudyard Kipling:Where Ishmael bides in his own place,A robber bold,as was foretold,To stand before his brother's face,The wolf without Jerusalem,And Burthened gentiles o'er the main, Must bear the weight of Israel's hate,Because he is not brought again,In triumph to Jerusalem. Pretty perceptive guy don't you think?

By the way Ruvy the Romans never came to Liverpool.Liverpool was established by the English as a port to 'sack' the natural wealth of Ireland in 1207.They wanted the Irish oak for their ships.But even the English have been driven back to the North East Corner from whence they will be dispatched by the natural fecundity of the Irish as they outnumber the English 'planters'. Mark the lesson well!

1001 arabian nights and a threat #57
ludlum innes daniel silva deighton fleming write on character out of grahamgreene like an old disgruntled backdept defense midlevel under appreciated exspook three divorced embittered poseur I could have been somebody -name dropper- self-educated wet dream over john le Carr served but lowly at state or u.n at some point in near distance past mideast room no view ticking off a substandard paycheck from selling soul out of context israel is evil revisionist selling syrianna where are the Hashemite out of proportion obsessed divestment clancy bible and verse life you cant handle the truth1001 arabian nights and a threat. what a treat feat.

A book synopsis a little off topic but it gives me the creeps and has real possibilities. Big smile to you, Joe. Big Smile.
But.. but..graft makes the world go round, the world go round, the world go round.
I mean twenty- three dollars and some beads and trinkets and viola! Manhattan, like, you know, Israel is the only one.
Expect the natural fecundity of the Rattus norvegicus to act as a third party honest broker in a petition of redress to the U.N.
Expect the U.N. to take it seriously. Expect the Islamic Republics to sign on the dotted line forthwith
'Mark the lesson, well'- joe kelsell
I certainly am, I am..... :)

I knew about the twenty three dollars and some beads but I did not know we also gave them a viola!Who would be able to play it? I thought the only stringed instrument the native americans used was a bow- now I get it , they use the bow to play the viola and'voila!'.Dear editor can you not proof read some of this garbage to make it comprehensible? Anyway Gratefulbloomer you're way off track. I move in and out of Israel as I like.Sometimes I take the number 444 bus from Eilat, a nice run with the hills of Jordan to my right and take refreshments on the Dead Sea before we pass Massada. My first experience of Israelis was in 1975. I was in Lebanon during the civil war and I drove south from Beirut along the corniche towards Tyre.There was suddenly a massive boom which I thought was a bomb-but no,it was an Israeli jet breaking the sound barrier over the beach. Now I considered this terrorism because the civil war was nothing to do with Israel.I have since thought that it might have been a sign of support for Elie Hobeika Israel's then friend but subsequently assassinated by an explosion in Beirut just before he was to present evidence against Sharon. Now Gratefulbloomer knows that my friend, Robert Fisk, lives on the Corniche in Beirut;Let's just hope he continues his good work in pursuit of truth.

Ruvy#55. Looks like there is more then one Joe Kelsall in the world, eh? Ruvy, did I miss something here? Was that comment directed at me?
Forgive my ignorance. Please explain. sr.

'How easy it is', said the lazy spider to the now exposed fly.
As Carly Simon's 'You're So Vain' plays softly in the background and violas are taken from their cell packs, roots checked, in preparation for planting as counterpoint to the oft recycled same old, same old ..... whatever .. the original topic.

joe, isn't it past time to drop- prompt prompt- the U.S.S. Liberty into your list?
Just trying to be helpful, wouldn't want you to skip over any of the 10 main talking points.

The USS Liberty is the ultimate oxymoron!!

I had a dream today, oh boy, 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire(John Lennon).Now as you probably know Blackburn is a former cotton town and now houses a huge muslim population. I am sure they could find a similar number of holes in the 'argument' (for want of a better word)of Amanda Roraback's (that surely can't be her real name?) reasons for leaving Palestine to the wolves.(does she mean real estate agents?) Palestine would have been, and still could be, a place for people to live, emigrate and invest except for the 'neighbours from hell!' The kids could be educated if they never had to risk their lives every time they tried to get to school.The most recent publicised account was of a little girl having 17 bullets pumped into her body and the soldier concerned considered to have followed the correct procedure! Scholars and statesmen are beginning to discuss Israel and people are starting to see the lie of Israeli 'victim' propaganda. The Second world war ended over 60 years ago. Young Germans are no longer prepared to be the whipping boys for the Holocaust. The Massive memorial in Berlin is an insult to our German allies. It's over and done with.Get over it!

Joe,

Thank you for the brief lesson in British history. I stand corrected about Liverpool.

I used to live in an Irish neighborhood many years ago and learned an interesting saying there.

"First there are the Irish. Then there are the people who wish they were Irish. And then there are the English, who wish they were people."

I used to have some sympathy for the IRA. After all, a major Irish-American politician helped this country out when it was fighting to become independent. But in the 1970's Muammar Khaddafi bought out the IRA, lock, stock and shillalagh. I wouldn't give a 5 pence for them now.

So that we know where we stand.

You're right about WII. It ended 60 years ago. Adn the Germans who were expelled from Silesia when it did were absorbed in Germany 60 years ago. As were the Poles expelled from the Ukraine and White Russia. As were the Jews expelled from Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe. They moved on. And so have we. Europe is not a fit plce for a Jews to live and the Moslems there are reminding those Jews too stupid to take the hint of a six million person slaughter to get out. And you Europeans, having killed us all so nicely, do not have the moral standing to say anything to any of us.

So, sympathetic fellow that you are, why don't you explain to me why the Arab countries in the Levant get a free pass and not have to absorb their fellow Arabs? Who the hell are they that their shit don't stink and guys like you condemn people like me because ARABS refuse to take care of their own? And why haven't you got the sense to demand that the Lebanese and others treat the South Syrian Arabs like people instead of trash?

Or are you just another no-brain European with no moral standing and no moral compass as well?

Ruvy,Ruvy Ruvy, I am at a bit of a contretemps with your last communication.According to Golda Meir there never were any Arabs to be absorbed! I quote her statement of the 15th June ,1969:"It is not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself a Palestine people, and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them.THEY DID NOT EXIST!" So , where did these fellow Arabs come from? Takes a bit of working out when you contrast it with the words of Rabbi Meir Kahane " The Arabs are a cancer.Let me become defence minister for two months and you will not have a single cockroach around here ,I promise you to clean 'Israel'. Now I presume the cleansing he was alluding to was a sort of genocide of these people he considered to be cockroaches and 'untermenschen'(you'll remember that word well) It therefore seems that the good Rabbi had extermination in mind - you know the sort - mass killings, gas chambers, Cyclon 'B' etc. Rabbi Kahane met his untimely death in 1990- maybe he should have stayed in Brooklyn! Anyway Ruvy it is the birthday of Mohammed(peace be upon him)inshallah, on Tuesday so get down to that wall and say a few words to YAHWEH about bringing sense to you guys. You and I both know there is land enough for all in Palestine.And, of course, Al Q'uds is a universal city. Did you have a bet on the 'Grand National'' the World's greatest steeple chase, In Liverpool last Saturday.Ma'salam JK

PS Ruvy - If I was English I would pretend to be from another country just as all of the Yanks in Europe are suddenly Canadians and have their luggage festooned with maple leaves! As for me I have my national flag on my car, my luggage and my mobile. Always looking for a good argument but the Yanks offer no competition. As Dr. Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel!"

Joe,

You did a merry jig all around my simple question, but you didna answer it! So I'll repeat it for you, this time with the spelling errors removed.

WWII ended 60 years ago. And the Germans who were expelled from Silesia when it did were absorbed in Germany 60 years ago, As were the Poles expelled from the Ukraine and White Russia, as were the Jews expelled from Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe. They moved on. And so have we.

So, sympathetic fellow that you are, why don't you explain to me why the Arab countries in the Levant get a free pass and not have to absorb their fellow Arabs? Who the hell are they that their shit don't stink and guys like you condemn people like me because ARABS refuse to take care of their own? And why haven't you got the sense to demand that the Lebanese and others treat the South Syrian Arabs like people instead of trash?

Ruvy as you know, if the countries around Palestine gave citizenship to the Palestinians then Zionism has won!We all are allocated roles in life by fate or in your case you may believe it's Yahweh.In my case I think that is bullshit, and that it's just the way the cards are dealt. Now let's take Zionism, I believe that the jews are playing the role,and indeed, have persuaded fools like Balfour to believe their claim on Palestine.But then again in your heart you know that Balfour was an historical rabid anti semite. So what went on in his meeting with Rothschild that changed his mind? Each man has his price.Now, in their own country,Palestinians have masters over them, abetted by the USA, but they have never submitted, nor are they likely to.I am sure they feel a degree of shame ,fury even that their children go hungry and thirsty whilst yours have the luxury of swimmimg pools using their water.Try walking in their shoes for a day Ruvy and see how you would like it! The Arabs need a leader with vision and prophecy and the gift of fiery speech to mobilise their muslim brethren. There are 1.4 billion muslims in the world and they still slumber. Their brothers walk in fear of your bombs, your lawyers and your jailers with their writs and handcuffs.Beware of that which is coming Ruvy - beware of the risen people who will one day take what you are unwilling to concede.Bullies, tyrants, hypocrites and liars always get their come-uppance. As you get old you see that history repeats itself and your turn will come again. Just think, if the OPEC countries turned off the oil the USA might discontinue your USA agency in the Middle East. As for your mention of treating people like trash, your own nation has an hierarchy of jews depending on the colour of their skin.I've seen it Rudy,remember. Now could you explain why those Jews in Meir Sharim,you know the smelly ones with the wringlets, don't do their service in the IDF. I somehow think that its a 'cop out'. Who the hell needs to study the Torah all day? Also Ruvy why do their wives' shave their heads? Is it true that they don't immerse their bodies in water unless they should be considered baptised? By the way, you didn't say whether you had a bet on the Grand National.

Ruvy, Your following comment needs some sunlight.

"WWII ended 60 years ago... the Germans who were expelled from Silesia when it did were absorbed in Germany... why don't you explain to me why the Arab countries in the Levant get a free pass and not have to absorb their fellow Arabs?

The answer is the world changed after WWII.

The United States along with most of the world, agreed that that the types of aggression leading up to WWII would be criminalized.

So, what has taken place since WWII is under international law that proscribes invading, taking, and holding the land of others through aggression.

(Religious beliefs notwithstanding).

International law says nothing about requiring the absorption of those whose land is under illegal occupation.

Sam, This might come as a complete surprise for you but history always repeats itself. "O yes. Freck international law and the great paper tiger called the UN.

Sam,

The world has not changed except to clothe murder in nicer clothing, in the shirt and tie of respectability. We have all sorts of pleasant words for it today that we didn't have 60 years ago - ethnic cleansing, friendly fire, collateral damage, abortion on demand, wars of liberation.

The world has not changed in the last 60 years except to get colder and meaner and less civilized. There are plenty of refugees and homeless people today, and those who have homes have even less sympathy for the homeless than they did then. America is filled with internal refugees. I was one of them once - I know. Africa is filled with refugees and homeless people, as is India and Brazil, and even Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

International law measns exactly the same thing today as it meant in 1936. Nothing.

If it meant anything, there never would have been an oil boycott in 1973, there would have been peace imposed on this region in 1949, thre would be no American soldiers in Iraq, no slavery in Arabia, not rape and rampages in Darfur or south Sudan, no genocide in Cambodia.

International law means jack shit, as does most law. All that counts is if you have weapons and enough force to suppress the enemy and kill him. Just like 60 years ago.

I'm not impatient with such a world, merely contemptuous of its many hypocrites, like the jig dancing Joe Kelsall above.

The world has not given up its Jew hatred nor its hypocrisies, nor its viciousness. It clings to these even more strongly than it did 60 years ago, and the defenders of all these things are lionized and praised.

Ruvy-the world is waking up to the fact that Palestine was ethnically cleansed to make room for Europe's jews.Now as we know Israel pays scant regard to the UN.(except when it decides in its favour) The USA always vetoes any criticism of the Israelis. American politicians are emasculated eunuchs except for Bush who appears to have undergone a cerebral lobotomy. Must be all that military action the 'Commander in Chief' experienced. And I am sure Blair is being 'fisted' by Bush. The UK has a jewish lord as its envoy to the Middle East (how bizarre is that)Lord Levy who was recruited to seek out dodgy loans for Blair. Some people will do anything for money. Still if it's a matter of suspicious usuary he got the right guy! Now you may also remember our greasy prime minister D'Israeli who gave up Judaism to reach his goal. How very altruistic of him (Oh yeah) So it seems our political Schmucks are no better than the Yanks.By the way Rudy, don't forget - tomorrow is Mohammed's birthday(peace be upon him).Ma'salam.

The following essay was written by Dr. Eugene Narrett, a professor of English literature and commentator on events in this neck of the woods. It is intended for all those who have trouble swallowing my contentions that America (and Europe) are the primary enemies of Israel and the Jewish people. I'd provide a link, but it came into my e-mail box.

While this deals primaily with events that occurred during WWII, they should be viewed not as a complaint about what has already occurred, but rather as a "dugmá" an example, of how the governments of Britain and America are in
reality hostile to the Jewish people, even though the populations of these nations may not be. The hostility of the British and American governments has continued over the past 60 years since WWII, and has been reflected in a "public" policy of "support" (an attempt to insure military dependency on the United States) coupled with a backstabbing policy out of (or nearly out of) public view.

LIKE EGYPT, THE USA IS A 'WEAK REED THAT PIERCES THE HAND...' : LEAVE TO BE FREE, © 9 April 2006, 12 Nisan 5766, E. Narrett


Many Jews assume that the American government will in someway rescue or help rescue them from the existential predicaments of the "land for [promises of] peace" deals that litter the air since late summer 1967. They should note at least two main points: 1) the various forms of the "peace process" are identical to the Arab demand that became official and explicit no later than during the Peel Commission hearings 1936-7: NO Jewish state of any size is acceptable to them.

Forewarned is forearmed, at least it is for people who want to live. And especially for Jews, there is no life without "being a free people in [their entire] land." Partitioning it, contorting it into switchbacks, doglegs, corridors and bottlenecks is only to make it indefensible. Even if the "wall" were straight, it would be a deterrent mainly to the movements of the IDF attempting to respond to attacks.

Second main point, 2) studying the history of what the British did to the Jews, in Mandatory "palestine" and in Europe from 1920 onward, and what America did in complementary fashion beginning at least with the Evian conference in 1938 demonstrates conclusively that the two greatest western powers, the Anglo-Ameircan alliance committed most to the vague and half-hearted "war on terror" are not the true friends but the betrayers and enemies of Israel and of the Jewish people generally.

One could write many books on this critical topic (one will be appearing this summer); but for now, consider just a few of the material in one of the most central of these texts, David S. Wyman's "America and the Holocaust: the Abandonment of the Jews, 1941-45" (1984, W. W. Norton; 1998 revised with new and fascinating Afterword).

Wyman's text makes plain that the betrayals of the "land for peace" deals since 1968 are a continuation of a malicious, homicidal contempt fully visible during WW II and the shoah.

By June of 1942, members of the Jewish Labor Bund escaped from Poland to Switzerland and German industrialists with dealings in Poland and the Alpine nation had conveyed to London that german extermination of Europe's Jews was progressin. On the morning of August 08, 1942, further confirmation of these reports came to American consulate in Geneva where Vice Consul Howard Elting personally received a briefing stating, in part, that already the Germans had transferred nearly four million Jews to Poland for extermination, "all Jews from Germany and German occupied areas in Europe" were to be murdered. Elting "considered the report fantastic" Wyman writes, "though it did mesh exactly with the recent [and widely publicized] deportations of Jews from Holland, France and elsewhere in western Europe.

On August 11, officials at the State Department in Washington "dismissed Riegner's disclosures as war rumors" even though the head of the Polish Government in exile already had received numerous such reports and publicly called on America and Britain to threaten and bomb the Germans in retaliation. London Foreign Office officials sat on the addtional information for a week.

Later, US Secretary of State, Sumner Welles called Reform Rabbi Stephen Wise (whose "shtadlanut" were considered by Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver to be "weak-kneed and a disaster") to downplay the news. Rabbi Wise, a major booster of FDR, was lulled by Welles' insistence that the additional eyewitness stories, if true at all, probably only reflected "the Nazi government's intention to use Jews for labor..." precisely the official German story.

That's the "help" of the US state department even faced with abundant evidence. Not very different from today when first the PLO - Fatah and now Hamas have become the interlocutors with whom Israel is put in virtual moral equivalence and to whom (and also to al Qaida, this is hardly classified information) it is commanded to yield ancient Jewish land.

But there's more details filling this pattern, much much more of which here just a tiny bit. Keep in mind Secy of State Welles' brutally cavalier remarks in light of the fact that the Polish government exile in London was receiving daily coded cablegrams from Bern (Switzerland) and frequent diplomatic couriers which brought information on German war and extermination plans from eastern Europe to New York and London from early 1942 onward.

One of the 'more sensitive' Roosevelt administraton officials proposed allowing a "temporary safe haven" in the Virgin Islands to "perhaps 2000 refugee Jews." Roosevelt turned it down. So also with a request to funnel $12,000 / month through Portugal for food aid to the four million and more Jews in Poland. Dean Acheson killed this "relief" effort.

It's instructive in discerning the genuine agenda of our ruling elites to contrast the official attitudes and proposals today to amnesty and/or naturalize eleven million illegal immigrants (with countless more in future) many of whom make no secret of their hatred of or hostile designs toward America and its sovereignty. What kind of people do America's ruling elites welcome, fund and apologize for and whom did and do they keep out?

In that September 1942, a Swedish businessman who had recently traveled throughout Poland provided detailed information on the mass separation of families and gassing to death of thousands of Jews each day from the ghettos in Warsaw, Lodz, Krakow and Lvov. That same month, the State Department received photostats of semi-coded letters smuggled out of the Warsaw ghetto which spoke of the activities of "Mr. Jagr" ("hunter," -- the Germans), and troubles of "uncle Achenu" ("our brothers" -- the Jews) and the increasing work of "Uncle Gerush" ("deportation," whose grandchildren recently are active in Israel). Secretary Welles declined to share them with the press.

Let's end this sad and urgently instructive overview with a summary of the agenda of the Bermuda Conference that the British Churchill and FDR Administrations finally were pressed into calling to quiet down the steadily building demand that something be done (for example, purchase from Roumani the 70,000 Jews still alive in detention there. Romania had offered them for $50/head). The British were appalled:

"What if Hitler accepted a proposeal to release perhaps millions of unwanted person, we might find ourselves in a very difficult position... we should be made to look exceedingly unwise..." A Mr. Peake then added, "many of the refugees are empty mouths [nb. the Germans called them "useless eaters"; apparently the British were comfortable adopting the description] for which Hitler has no use. We would be relieving him of the obligation to care for these useless people..." (pp. 114-15).

This is part of what it means to be slaves and not free; this is part of what it means to cede decisions over Jewish land and sovereignty to the mighty powers of the West...

"Approaches to the Axis satellite countries" that already were signalling their willingness to release their Jewish populations, "were not discussed at all" by the Anglo-American teams at Bermuda. The British demanded, successfully, that their policy of restricting (essentially banning) jewish immigraion into the Jewish National Home "would not be discussed at the conference."

In sum, the agenda would be that, 1) "no approach be made to Hitler for release of potential [Jewish] refugees; 2) discuss the possiblility of obtaining neutral shipping [almost nothing was done here though the resources were large; 3) a "request that the British "consider" admitting Jews to Cyrenica [Libyan coast] would be considered" [it came to nothing]; 4) "discuss suggestions for removing [the 3500] Jewish refugees already in Spain; 5) a potential "joint Allied declaration on postwar repatriation of refugees" [i.e. anyhwere but the Jewish National Home].

I refer readers of Wyman's 1998 edition (strongly preferred) to the last chapter there, "Responsibility" whose discussion of the treatment of the 1000 [!] Jewish refugees from Europe (many of them with American children in America, including in the armed services) that FDR allowed into America, to Camp Oswego on Lake Ontario in December 1945 for further evidence on the place of Jews in the post war World envisioned by America's foreign policy establishment.

It's time for Pesach, the foundational festival of the Jewish nation, faith, practice, and journey to freedom in its Promised Land. Get a copy of Wyman to study during Chol HaMoed or after the holiday and ponder the connection of freedom / sovereignty to life and of slavery to death. It's a lesson, the lesson for our time: b'yamim haheim, bazman hazeh......


Dr. Eugene E. Narrett

Ruvy,I don't have a lot of time but I suggest you read the letter of Dec.4th 1948 by New Yorks eminent jews,including Albert Einstein, deploring the forthcoming visit of your old war criminal Menachen Begin to the USA. Inshallah you will understand the terrible terrorism visited on Arabs and Jews by Menachen's 'heroes'. You see Rudy its a matter of applied mathematics. If Begin Killed hundreds of British troops and thousands of native Palestinians and if his successors continue that death toll unto this day - how can you complain about the holocaust? As a famous,no THE most famous Jew once said " Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" Don't think I need to explain.Ma'salam.Inshallah bukra Al Quds!

firstly, regardless of the so called 'facts' which by the way you obviously need to read up on more and make judgments based on the history and not just what you have heard, no one should ever turn their backs on other people who are suffering!

I strongly advise you to look at how this conflict started! It dates back to almost 90 years ago with the Balfour declaration where America AND Britain decided to play a disgusting game of scrabble with the Middle East. It was Britain and America which decided to split up 'rule' the Middle East and this is what has caused the conflict! It is America and Britain that need to work and I mean properly work with the Arab nations to formulate effective peace. When i say work i mean not force or provide sanctions for! They need to take responsibilty for the mess they have created!

You referred to suicide bombings in your article. Firstly, people like us can not sit bone-idle in our comfy chairs and condemn suicide bombings in the Middle East without looking at the cause or WHY it is happening! When you have seen (again i can only imagine) your parents, your children, your family blown up into worthless pieces and you know that you may be next and you have nothing to protect yourself or retaliate with but yourself, the thought of being a suicide bomber can be understood in this context, the psychological trauma is only what we can only imagine. it just reflects the desperate situation it has turned into and the more Israel attack the more suicide bombers they are breeding by the minute as lets face it, the Palestinians have nothing to fight with but themselves! Palestinians make their own weapons; they are not funded by USA with missionary weapons and aid! However, I am not saying that suicide bombing killing innocent lives is commendable, in fact far from it. I do not support the people who carried out 7/7 hurting innocent lives when they are not a threat to you. I am simply saying that one should look into the reason of why these things happen...men who are suicide bombers and blow themselves up in a place like America and Britain because they do not agree with foreign policy need to revise their motives and intentions especially when Palestinians' themselves who don't have power in comparison are getting involved politically instead of killing themselves, they understand that once you're dead, ur dead so what use are you to do good, what power can you have...it should make us think of how lucky we are to live in a country where we can get involved politically and with it have some sort of power and greater influence than that of the palestinians to try and help places like palestine and expand to places like siera leone which homes the disgusting blood diamond trade which suprise suprise, is for the big strong economies like America and Britian and some Arab states.

This is indeed a complex situation but like i said if you want to be balanced in your opinion then READ THE HISTORY! this is one of the reasons why people keep making the same mistakes where history repeats itself because we don't LEARN from history, most of us are ignorant and are closed minded because we don't care to educate ourselves before we make such swooping statements!.....i have read the history and i have seen how much of a bloody conflict it is and based on the FACTS, the Palestinians are not as much at fault as the big spoilt kids of America, Israel and britian!..Palestine are not the ones we should turn our back on!