I hear a constant drumbeat that the patriot act is taking away our liberties. What liberties are they taking away specifically?

Local cities may be protesting the patriot act to distract you from what they themselves are doing. They take away private property and hand it over to political donors. The constantly increase their control through zoning and regulation of property that is lucky enough not to be taken away. They pass laws about how high your grass can be cut and where you can park the car you bought on the land you paid for. They pass little nanny laws about smoking, seatbelts, cell phones, guns, and even our food. They radar your cars without a warrant, with cameras on every corner and at every toll owned by privately held companies that watch your every move.

Our rights and liberties are indeed under attack, but if your foolish enough to think the worst of it is that you can't run out and warn your terrorist friends when you're under investigation then you are sadly mistaken.

Oh, I forgot, that part about warning the terrorists got struck down by the ever vigilant watchdogs. Too bad they missed the part where governments can take any individuals house away, an honest mistake I'm sure.

How about the right to borrow a book from the library without the government secretly gaining access to a record of it? PATRIOT takes that away.

How about the right to there being objective oversight of surveillance against Americans? PATRIOT takes that away by expanding the number of cases that qualify for "no probable cause necessary" under FISA, which makes it even more appalling that the Bush admin chose to circumvent FISA for the NSA program.

I am sorry, but I just don't feel oppressed by the Patriot act. I haven't heard of a single case of abuse. The Clinton's abused privacy rights with the FBI file scandal and they were never punished. It's all about character.

Nixon without Patriot Act = spying on politicl opponents.
Clinton without Patriot Act = spying on political enemies.
Bush WITH the Patriot Act = only terrorists are spied on.

Bush is not a scoundrel so the law is not abused.

At the risk of being self-promotional, to those who don't believe that any rights are being taken away by the PAT Act, why not read my book, AMERICA'S UNPATRIOTIC ACTS--it documents specific cases. Further, let's just pretend that there were no cases, the mere fact that the Act ALLOWS civil liberties to be taken away is enough of a reason to oppose it. But, as I stated, check out the book--also the Bill of Rights Defense Committee, the American Booksellers Association, American Library Association, American Bar Assn.--and dozens of otehr national orgs. have specifics.
wb

Neocondi. Bush may not be abusing the powers inherent in the Patriot act, but what happens when he leaves office and is replaced by someone totally unscrupulous like a John Kerry?

Dave

Neocondi and Dave, even giving Bush the benefit of the doubt, your unquestioning trust in government motives is scary. Even if you trust "Dumbya" I personally find it impossible to believe that Cheney and Karl Rove would be as noble as you imply with such power.

I'm happy YOU are so comfortable with your internet and library records being subject to search, but I plan to vote for someone with more of a concern for protecting our liberties than you're showing here come next election.

Dave, considering what an abysmall failure Kerry's campaign was in 2004 I don't think we ahve to worry about him ever occupying the oval office.

I would think that Congress and the American people would not allow someone to hold our highest office that would abuse the patriot act regardless of which party they belong to.

JP I don't find they're trust in the Patriot act scary at all. We've had it on the books for several years now and the sky hasn't fallen yet. In fact there are no indications that the Patriot Act will cause this to happen in the near future either.

I have to tell you that in my experience I have not had my rights infringed upon by this act and I ahve not heard accounts from anyone I have come into contact with of this happeneing.

Despite the fact that American society has not devolved into a police state there are still many using this issue to play "chicken Little" politics and I think that's wrong.

Arch, how would you define the sky falling? Would you even be aware if it happened? I don't even really know how to continue this conversation, as it's apparent you're ignoring news stories that threaten your worldview.

I find the near pariah status given to dissenters to be de-evolution enough for me. I sincerely question whether you'd be aware if your rights to privacy had been infringed upon, and I question your conclusion given the amount of information that the government has requested from the major search engines (as you may be aware, Yahoo and MSN cooperated, only Google objected at first).

Did you read the recent news release about FBI spying based on a group's political views? Of course, I'm sure you'll write off anything related to the ACLU as "liberal propaganda." That's your choice, clearly, but not one on which I'd agree with you.

neocondie:
"Nixon without Patriot Act = spying on politicl opponents.
Clinton without Patriot Act = spying on political enemies.
Bush WITH the Patriot Act = only terrorists are spied on.
"

How do you know? How CAN we know when the whole operation is so secretive and there is no oversight by FISA?

"Bush is not a scoundrel so the law is not abused."

But Bush is, evidently, a scoundrel.

JP,

I got one better. Two police cruisers were spying on me with fancy electronic detection devices on my way home today, I was also spyed by three red light cams and a toll booth all without warrants.

Every American is under surveillance all the time. So what? Did anyone get arrested or have their rights violated. If they weren't doing anything wrong then that have nothing to worry about just like me with my friendly neighborhood revenue generating cameras.

I don't like being under surveillance one bit. I don't like cameras or mandatory drug tests or radar guns or company email policies. Why am I not on the news? Oh yeah, because I'm not some left wing 'victim' group.

RT, if that's how you look at it, I guess I'm not willing to grant Bush carte blanche access to my personal information because I'm not some right wing fundamentalist freak who loves all things GOP. Apparently we'll be agreeing to disagree.

JP did you even read my comment #5 before responding to it and lumping me in with AC? Or do you just see my name on a comment and assume that you disagree with it without reading it?

The issue has nothing to do with whether or not Bush has or has not abused the powers of the Patriot Act. It has to do with the potential of any administration or just random investigatory agencies of abusing this power for their own purposes.

Dave

JP I would define the sky as falling when I witness widespread incidents of innocent American citizens having thier rights infringed upon. I would define the sky falling as the actual creation of a police state, which many on the far left are telling us we are only two steps away from. Being as that neither of these is currently true I would say the sky isn't even close to falling.

There are different types of dissent JP. There is clear thinking, rational, dissent such as saying "I believe the war in Iraq is wrong because the administration didn't prepare well enough and it could have been handled better." Then there is the dissent of those who scream slogans like "Bush lied, soldiers died," without any credible proof to back up these accusations. There is the dissent of those who claim America is currently seeking to create an empire and cares nothing for the rest of humanity, make nothing but anti-american remarks and so on.... your Cindy Sheehans and Answer types if you will.

So when dissent becomes blatant idiocy it is the dissenter themself who is to blame for their "pariah" status.

You seem to think I never question anything our government does, which is wrong because I do when the it seems prudent to do so. On the other hand you seem like the typee of person who not only questions, but assigns evil ulterior motives to EVERYTHING the government does.

As for the ACLU all I can say is actions speak louder than words and despite thier lip service to the idea that the represent the civil liberties of all Americans equally....well I know better than that.

Dave, I probably would have given you more credit had you refrained from using your statement as a launching pad to attack John Kerry. You could have simply said that future elections might put others of lower ethical standards in office, and the window of opportunity being created here might be opened wider in the future. However, having said that, you are arguing a different point than AC, and I apologize for not stating that more clearly.

AC, if you don't believe that spying on a group for political views is a problem, we're not operating from the same reality. I'd also advise that as we are talking about a program that (by design) is secretive, it is likely that we do not have access to information about all instances of abuse. To me, one or two reports of abuse are therefore a danger sign indicating the significant possibility that more have already taken place. If you care to ignore that possibility, that's your choice.

As for your definitions of dissent: The statement that "the administration didn't prepare well enough and it could have been handled better" is one that would be made for someone who *agrees* with the premise of the war, not one who opposes it. Like many conservatives, you imply that the only acceptable disagreement is about tactics and methods, not purpose. There is no reason the debate should be confined to such a limited set of options.

Your two other examples are distortions as well. "Bush lied, soldiers died" is the argument of people on the far left who are convinced of Bush's deception. There are so many examples of deceptive statements by the administration about weapons of mass destruction, that is not even worth debating any longer. As that was the main reason cited in the beginning for pre-emptive war, it's a legitimate point of contention.

Those arguing that the war concerns oil are simply open to possibilities outside those that our government tells us. If you truly believe terrorists "hate us for our freedom" as Bush has stated in the past, you're naiive. Even reading Osama's letter to Americans from 2002 shows his sincere objection to our presence in Palestine on the side of Israel. It is also foolish to believe that control of oil supply is not a factor in our policy decisions. Protection from terrorists is certainly valid, and I believe that's one of the major reasons; but I also believe it's much more complicated than that. Perhaps you do not.

JP, Kerry was just an example. I'd be just as concerned if it was Rick Santorum, Hillary Clinton or any of the many other ideologically blinded candidates we are likely to be offered in the future. Bush certainly has his shortocmings, but he's pragmatic and not interested in violating peoples rights just to serve some 'higher cause'.

Dave