So, to sum up, you went to a rallying session where a bunch of political agitators said things which aren't true in order to spread divisiveness and race and class hatred, and used and debased a church in order to do so. And of course they defended having used Coretta Scott King's funeral for equally mercenary purposes.

tragic truth that the war in Iraq is being disproportionately fought by those of meager means

Except that statistical studies of the composition of the armed forces show that the troops are drawn overwhelmingly from the middle-income brackets and that whites are represented out of proportion to their percentage in society, and that the troops are in fact not mostly poor or minorities.

But I guess when you're in church or at a funeral you can lie and get away with it.

Dave

*Except that statistical studies of the composition of the armed forces show that the troops are drawn overwhelmingly from the middle-income brackets and that whites are represented out of proportion to their percentage in society, and that the troops are in fact not mostly poor or minorities.

But I guess when you're in church or at a funeral you can lie and get away with it.*

Dave - that's classic straw man shite...a logical error that you can avoid if you read more carefully and respond to what actually is written

troll

oooohh. political agitators! scary stuff. telling lies, like soldiers signing up for another tour just for the cash, like the fact that the world is unjust and that the hurricane was bad, but the response was terrible? lies, lies, all of the democrat lies!

But I guess when you're on the internet you can bullshit and get away with it.

Troll, I quoted the lie and responded to it. How is that a straw man argument. I think it's a legitimate point that these people think they can get away with anything when cloaked with the sacred cows of church and race and the memory of MLK.

Dave

"... you went to a rallying session where a bunch of political agitators said things which aren't true in order to spread divisiveness and race and class hatred, and used and debased a church in order to do so."

I'd say that's the straw man, or perhaps ad hominem, but in any case, uncharitable. It's a disingenuous characterization of the event that makes it unjustly easy to ridicule. (You're above that Dave.)

I'm curious about the stats. Perhaps Dave can provide a reference and we can all have a look.

Dave - "meager means" = much of the middle class = most US soldiers

the line you quoted said nothing about the 'poor' as your straw man implied

troll

Brian, I'm working on writing up the stats from several sources on this topic as an article. There are two main studies which people reference, one from Heritage (right wing) and one from NPP (left wing). They both start with the same data and make different conclusions, but there are some basic flaws in how NPP breaks down the data which produce rather deceptive results. One thing they do both agree on is that the bulk of the recruits are from the middle income groups, and that the median incomes of the families of recruits are about $7000 higher per year than the medium incomes of families in the general population.

For a good, simple analysis of not only where recruits come from, but how there is a trend since 9/11 for them to come from higher income groups more than before, see this article in Veterans Today.

And troll, to me 'meager means' is the same thing as saying poor. I've never heard it defined as middle class.

Given that 66% of all recruits come from families with incomes of over $35,000 and 45% come from families with incomes over $55,000 (the second highest income group), I'd hardly say that they can be classed as coming from 'meager means'. Of the five income quintiles, the top two are the two highest sources for recruits and the bottom two are the two lowest sources.

Dave

What difference does it make how much money they make, Nalle? The bottom line is, they've got the honor it takes to enlist and fight for their country. [Deleted. Nice try though, MCH, you're defintely trying harder to sing variations!]

*Given that 66% of all recruits come from families with incomes of over $35,000 and 45% come from families with incomes over $55,000 (the second highest income group), I'd hardly say that they can be classed as coming from 'meager means'.*

Dave - if your stats are accurate then I stand corrected

troll

Dave - can you break out what % comes from families that earn more than $100,000 - ?

how about $250,000...

I will be surprised indeed if a significant percentage of our troops are wealthy (arbitrarily defined as those from families making more than $100,000)

troll

Troll, the quintiles for income used by the census stop at $80K and higher for the top quintile. It would require customized research which would probably need to be done by the Pentagon itselt fo get a more detailed breakdown in income. But I think that since these figures include officers there's no reason not to expect there to be some meaningful numbers in the higher income groups. I know that among the officers I know quite a number come from families with incomes well into the 6 digit range.

Just for MCH's benefit, one of those officers is his oft-quoted source General Bill Odom's son Mark, who I've known since he was a kid, and there's no question the Odom family has a nice big income with all of the General's consulting and talking-head work. Anecdotal, but not isolated.

Dave

Thanks for the references Dave. I look forward to your article and analysis.

What I find interesting in the article is the suggestion that private sector jobs are lacking for returning troops. I would add that our troops are returning to a housing market that they will not be able to enter -- at least around my parts in Southern California. But the trend is a national one, where the median income, generally, cannot afford the median home price. This has happened since the troops were deployed, i.e., within the last three years.

So what I think is sad is that our troops, many of whom I assume want to start up families upon their return, are going to have problems getting their own housing.

Of course, the problem is broader in that it applies to kids just getting out of college and / or just entering the workforce. Maybe it's the free room and board that make the military an attractive option?

The housing price issue is a good point, but not all the markets are as hot as some parts of California. I know you can still get a decent starter house in some of our suburban areas around here for $100K even though the prime locations have just about doubled in value in the last 5 years.

As for unemployment, lots of areas of the county have jobs that are sitting unfilled, and soldiers come out of the military with skills and character qualities which make them attractive as employees.

Dave