...If you make people wade through seven paragraphs of unrelated anecdotes before you get to what you're really trying to say, you've lost.

my, oh my, i am so totally screwed!

Lori,

Having taught freshman English for many years (as well as high school English and 7 & 8 grade English), I'd say this post is right on the money. It should be read by writers (in college or not).

Thank you several times over. I know I can edit a piece several times and still find something that can be sharper. Walking away or sleeping on it if you can, is probably the best advice I've ever been given. Mistakes really jump out then.

This was awesome, awesome, awesome.

Thanks for the pointers lori. Being a porn writer I have realized that nothing puts the fire out faster than a spelling or a grammatical mistake.

Excellent post - it has been cross-posted to Desicritics.org, for greater appreciation and adulation - check there too for comments.

I haven't read the original so if I mention something that was in the original article then my bad.

I wholeheartedly agree with your points and have an additional observation/piece of advice for aspiring amateur writers.

The goal of writing is to have somebody read your stuff. To make it easier on your reader, you will want to pay attention to the aesthetic of your writing, how it looks and flows.

The easiest way to do that is to keep your paragraphs in small, bitesize chunks and avoid superparagraphs as much as possible. This makes the writing less intimidating at first glance.

You will also want to speed up your sentences as much as possible. Keep your commas to a minimum if you can and above all else, omit needless words.

Interesting post, and thanks for pointing me to the other resource by Scalzi. Definitely food for thought!

IMO, the best advice for improving your writing and punctuation is to read lots (of well written and punctuated prose), not to learn rules. That's the natural way; that's how you learn language in the first place.

Ham. Johnnie Walker. That was a very helpful article.

Strange. Your Comment policy says that Personal attacks are not allowed.

Yet, that is exactly what you seem to have indulged in, with this post.

Let me clarify at the outset that nothing, absolutely nothing, is wrong with your post. It makes perfect sense. But personally, I feel, you may have gone a little overboard with your critique on Scalzi. I have read the post before you wrote about it and i found it pretty good for non-writer...

Come to think about it, hasn't Scalzi mentioned right at the outset that the post is for non-writers? Why the venom, fella?

I had my eyebrows up in anticipation of using a semicolon when I read Mr. Scalzi's article as well. While I am not a very refined writer, I did recall the rules for the semicolons from the little time that I paid attention in High School English.

Nice article, and thanks for the clarifications.

I agree with the grammar aspects of this post; I really do. ;)

But with the "What he forgets" section, I disagree. A blog should not be altered to make it sound more dramatic or memorable. I think a blog should give the facts, as opposed to using catchy words or phrases to make the blog sound more interesting than it actually is.

I'd say there are really only two rules, and Scalzi gets them in numbers 7 and 8:

1. Treat every time you write anything--email, notes in class, anything--as a chance to improve your writing skills. (And of course, write a lot.)

2. Read good writers. All the time. Pay attention to how they use the written word, what elements stand out, how they structure sentences, everything. It doesn't matter if you're reading fiction and writing nonfiction; studying effective prose gives you a chance not just to learn "rules", but to understand why to follow them (or not).

Great piece, and good takeoff on Scalzi's post.

I think Scalzi was doing a somewhat tongue in cheek, quick and dirty post aimed at "non-writers" who don't want to look totally foolish in their day to day writing. But I feel that even those who have no aspirations for being a noted author would find your piece and his to be useful.

When I see even a comment or e-mail that is carelessly thought out with gross mispellings, many times I find it hard to take the writer all that seriously. That goes double for those who sometimes make me scratch my head because I can't even figure out what side of the fence they're sitting on, because they don't make it clear except in their own head. Seems to me it's a good idea for any writer in any medium to try and get some of the basic rules nailed down--and to PROOFREAD before hitting "send."

I do think that if one is a voracious reader, it is possible to learn most of the "rules" intuitively by observing others. And I also think if one aspires to be a good writer, or a pro for that matter, reading others' writing is pretty much a prerequisite.

People can also "fall in love" with their own writing and be blind to the fact that it may need editing to make it more readable to others. As a much younger writer, I remember how I used to try to load my prose with big words and long ponderous sentences. This was fine for academic treatises, but not if you want the average person to sit up and pay attention. Knowing "le mot juste," however, can be very valuable as long as it's used judiciously.

Thanks for the great post.

It seems to be there are two camps of writers.

Those who write literature, and/or those who get books published, non-fiction or fiction.

And those who talk about writing.

Now Scalzi might not be the best candidate as the example of an author, but he's the best I got. His rules aren't flawless by any means, but they're certainly a lot easier to swallow than your nearly flaming piece here.

His rules are great, even if flawed, if only because the give you the best advice you can get. He tells you to read great writers, and to pretty much do as you please within reason. Anyone who has written fiction knows that pin-point precision to the rules is pointless. Your speaking voice isn't anywhere near grammatically correct. I don't think your writing voice should be either. But, again, within reason.

English is a constantly evolving language, and in no place has this been more apparent than in literature. Every author writes differently. They have their own rules. Some comma splice it up; some never use quotation marks when writing their dialog; some just slaughter the language with run on sentences that are all commas. (Was that proper usage of a semi-colon? I don't know, but it felt right.)

I'm deviating from my point, though I did front-load it.

There are those who talk about writing, they might teach it even. They're bogged down in the science of the language. They write stodgy papers full of rules, dos and don'ts about writing. They live a life almost completely devoid of creativity, and if they do write something in the realm of fiction, it's generally boring and stale. I hate to insult all English teachers in the world, but I find this holds true almost all the time.

The people who write, however, will more often than not tell you that writing is nothing more than doing what you feel is right. If you're a terrible writer, then don't write. If you're a great writer, well, there you go.

No amount of rules, hints, tips, guidelines, or inside out knowledge of sentence structure is going to make you a good writer.

... Course, if you're a terrible writer with a desire to dissect the language until you remove nearly all the joy out of it, then maybe you should look into writing guides on how to write properly.

Oh, and, by the way, your advice to have a writer show someone else their work is the worst advice you can give anyone. At least you should specify that you should show someone when you are DONE with what you are working on.

Showing someone a work in progress is generally the greatest murderer of creativity. It depends on the writer, of course, and what you're writing. I'm talking mostly about fiction here. Every time I have shown a WIP to someone, I haven't been able to continue it.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone, and thanks for all the additional suggestions for people who want to improve their writing.

A couple of replies:

#11 Shrikant Joshi: I'm not a fella. 8-) But that's neither here nor there. Scalzi says he's responding to a query specifically about people who "aren't aspiring professionals but who would like to write better," not nonwriters. They're clearly writers, but they're not writing professionally. Also, Scalzi adds this nota bene: "These [the ten tips] work pretty well for people who do want to be pro writers, too."

Also, Shrikant, I've made no personal attacks against Scalzi. I critiqued his writing advice, and that's it. In that critique, I also said he offered some good tips.

Re: #16 and 17, Brad Root: I'm so sorry to have hurt your feelings by critiquing "the best guy you've got." Go ahead, insinuate all you want that I'm not really a writer myself if it makes you feel bigger. You make good points about the difference between fiction and nonfiction writing, but your approach makes anything you have to say pretty much disposable.

Also, I noticed you posted comment #16 on your own blog, but that you don't seem to allow others to comment there. (At least I couldn't find a link.) I'd like to note for the record that I never said, "Don't listen to John Scalzi." I said, "Don't listen to everything John Scalzi says." If you're going to quote me, please do so accurately.

Actually, I need to quote myself accurately. I said, "Don't do everything John Scalzi says."

tanks; now i can reely rite good!

Interesting and well-written post Lori, but I would point out that you may be reading a bit too literally on the comma and breathing section. It is fairly clear from Scalzi's post that he is not suggesting you place a comma in your work everytime you breathe. He is suggesting that, if you were to read the sentence aloud, as though someone were speaking it, the comma would be placed at the pause points for the breath.

In the context of how he presents it, it is not a bad rule of thumb. Obviously it is not consistent or correct at all times or in all places, but it can give a non-professional writer a good take on when and where the usage of a comma may be called for, without consulting a grammar nazi for advice.

Otherwise I thought both Lori and Scalzi have provided some excellent advice.

Relax, folks -- she's not attacking me personally, she's merely disagreeing with some advice I gave.

Now, I do believe Ms. Mortimer misinterpreted the primary audience for the piece. In fact I did aim it at non-writers, which is why the title of the piece is "Writing Tips for Non-Writers Who Don't Want to Work at Writing" -- non-writers in this case being people who don't write for a living or as part of their living (filing reports, etc). I think the advice is applicable for pro writers and non-pros who write in the course of their work, but clearly one's mileage may vary. I also think that in her response to my advice she's neglecting a salient point, which is that my advice is aimed toward people who don't actually want to *work* at writing better, while hers clearly is.

I would also respectfully disagree that my punctuation and grammar advice will cause chaos (chaos!). They work just dandy for me, and I've been supporting myself as a writer for 15 years. I cop to being occasionally chaotic on a personal basis, but my writing usually works out just fine. I wouldn't tell non-writers to do something I wouldn't do, writing-wise; that would seem kind of mean.

Having said that, I find her advice here to be generally good and sensible, so if you *do* wish to work on your writing -- which, to be clear, I think would be a good thing -- then you should listen up to what she says. If you just want to give the *appearance* of working on your writing, then I expect my advice will do well enough... although again, your mileage may vary.

Good to see you around, Scalzi!

It should be noted that John Scalzi is responsible for article #1 on this site: a review of an album by a band called Dorman.

Nice work, Lori. It's refreshing to come across proof that there are still some people who care about proper grammar, punctuation, and the like. Bravo!

You can also find a review of his book Old Man's War at http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/11/06/231914.php.

Ugh, I didn't even think to link to Scalzi's books at the end of my post. Thanks for the comment that brought it to my attention, Deano. I sent a message to EO asking him to add a couple.

And who knew (besides Phillip) that Mr. Scalzi authored the very first BC post? (Only to be nitpicked to death a few years later by another BC.)

Sir John, thanks for commenting. I appreciate your feedback, courtesy, and sense of humor.

[I also like your bald head. But that doesn't seem relevant to the discussion.]

After reading a couple of comments here, I admit that I did wonder if I'd flamed you personally, but I'm glad that you don't think so because that certainly wasn't my intent.

My mileage on the grammar/punctuation rules definitely differs from yours, but I certainly respect you for not wanting to be mean. I'm generally not that considerate. 8-)

Again, I'm not a grammar Nazi, just someone who thinks that we shouldn't be afraid to tell people to hit the books first and then worry about nuance later. Some people can learn grammar and punctuation incidentally by reading, but experience shows me that most people can't.

Thanks again for dropping in.

Lori:

"And who knew (besides Phillip) that Mr. Scalzi authored the very first BC post?"

Indeed, and here's another fun little fact: I actually named the joint! In fact, I reserved "Blogcritics.com" for Eric Olsen so no one else would take it from him (but then he went and reserved Blogcritics.org, the silly man. Nevertheless Blogcritics.com still points here). Ah, the early days of teh Intarweebs.

"Again, I'm not a grammar Nazi, just someone who thinks that we shouldn't be afraid to tell people to hit the books first and then worry about nuance later."

Oh, and I agree to that. I was merely working with the constraints imposed by the fellow writing in the request. In a perfect world, people would have grammar/punctuation drilled into their heads whether they liked it or not. I had that as a freshman in highschool, and while I hated it at the time, I'm glad for it now.

Indeed, John Scalzi is a friend of BC from the pre-inception days (back when the rallying cry was "Free CDs for bloggers")! IIRC, the switch from .com to .org came as part of an emergency host switch, when we couldn't get .com redirected in time, but that's no matter now. They both work, indeed!

I don't mean to get us off-track. Lori's got some excellent writing advice up above, so I'll be quiet. :-)

Phew, I'm glad this lady also is my "real world" editor! Good to know I'm under good guidance. :)

But someone named Mary is your copy editor because that job is for grammar Nazis.

;-)

strunk and white: elements of style.

http://www.bartleby.com/141/

These tips are dynamite... yes... wow; come for a writing holiday in France or Spain with www.7daywonder.com

Sleeping on a blog post is one of the most important things I do. I can always make a story better; sometimes it's only a word or two (hey, I like using semicolons).

This is great advice. This article and the one it references is something I will definitely bring to the attention of my students. When reading the original piece, I was also thinking that those punctuation rules were ridiculous, and appreciate that you have taken the time to correct them.

I have occasionally written on this same topic on my blog, but I put most of the blame on poor grammar skills on technology. One hardly needs to learn these things, because a word processor's grammar check will usually catch the errors first. Furthermore, Google has rendered research into a trivial exercise so there is little thinking required when writing any piece of writing now. It's sad really, but I suppose that's the direction we're heading in this brave new world.

This is all good advice. In my opinion, it matters why one is writing as to which tips should be utilized (particularly sleeping on it, consulting others). It depends also on why one is keeping the blog and who is reading it. I began a blog to practice my writing skills, and surprised myself at how much better and faster I got in six months, not only at writing, but at reading, synthesizing information, and thinking in general. Communication is the most important tool we human beings have, so practice--even clumsy practice--never hurts.

You people are nerds.

Seriously! This is a 2000-word post about periods, commas, and semicolons, and people actually seem to be reading it.

Thanks Lori! I write a small column for a local newspaper and I think I do an ok job at it. But sometimes I have problems on commas and semicolons; I am just too lazy to look up the correct way. Little reminders like this blog really helps. //bob

Fantastic post. This is one of the more useful things I've read lately.

brilliant job on this Lori, and we all would do well to take heed and go forth and sucketh no more.

HI John - Looks like you are buzzing along famously - you have a permanent place in the foundation mythos of Blogcritics and shall be remembered ever thus!

You: "Before you publish, try to put your piece down and come back to it a day or two later. You'll end up thinking about the piece while you're away from it, and when you come back, you'll look at it with a fresh eye."

Me: "Before you publish, try to put your piece down and come back to it a day or two later. You'll end up forgetting you wrote it, and when you come across it six months later, you'll be grateful."

Lori.
You sound like a real beyotch.
Relax.
Poorly placed commas and periods are not the end of the world.

Are too.

I don't know how anyone could have missed the passive/active voice rule. Nice catch.

Thank you. I obviously played hooky the day they taught semicolons at school. I was glad to see: "If you're still not sure where semicolons should and shouldn't go, then don't use them. You could live your whole life without using a semicolon, and you'd never be wrong." I feel absolved of years of semicolon sins.

Lori! Please marry me--we could be the team of the future, cause my writing stinks and is so miserable and I know that I am making mistakes--Eric Olsen already taught me to use way less exclaimation points. But: If you are asking me to write a master piece in German--I will write them ALL against the wall.
And one of my close friends who is a successful writer tells me "Anybody can type." And: I just went to a lecture with Paul Haggis and that blew my mind. He was the biggest inspiration to anybody. He was fired many times as a writer from shitty shows in Hollywood--yet he believed in himself and now he did what nobody before him achieved. He won back to back Oscar for best screenplay (Million Dollar Baby & Crash). He was so down to earth and wonderful.
I know I make many typos, but it is the though that counts and it is also the thought that sells!

I'am a high school student trying to write a novel and I hopefully plan to get it published. Do you have to have a college degree or any college education before you try to get one of your novels published?

I sold a short-short (200 word) story some... weeks, I think it was, after I graduated from high school at 17. So really, all you need to be able to do is... write well. Know what the words you're using mean, know how to spell them, make verbs and subjects and tenses agree, and know what you're supposed to do with punctuation.

I will say that college really honed my ability to sit down and write; after grinding through enough papers that I didn't want to write, it was great to be able to write something I liked. Alas, the novel that I wrote after graduating from college is still my Grand Unpublished, but every aspiring author needs one of those, right?

The most important part -- after writing well -- is to follow the rules when you submit your novel to a publisher or agent. It is very easy to look the publisher (or agent) up on the web and find their rules for submissions. Find Them. Pay Attention To Them. I have a part-time job which sometimes involves looking at someone's email to me in teeny-font Arial HTML, and writing back, "I'm sorry, but I cannot consider submissions that do not follow the online guidelines."

If you know what you're doing, you can break the rules of grammar and make it work. (If you don't know what you're doing, breaking the rules of grammar will look ignorant.) But if you want a publisher (or agent) to look favorably upon you, you had better follow all the rules -- and especially the ones which are designed to make your manuscript more readable.

Great article!! I really enjoyed reading every bit!! Great content information, it also gives my readers another opinion on blogging. Thanks again!!