Blogcritics Comments on The "Offended" Offenders

Comment by teutates on The "Offended" Offenders

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:57:35 EST

Ruvy, can u hook me up with a sane rabbi?

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 05:06:23 EST

Gazelle, Writing in Hebrew gains you entrée to the majority of the readers here who read English only with difficulty, if at all. Bear in mind that most reading is done for "entertainment," so for an Israeli to struggle with my English is not "entertaining." He'll read the Hebrew instead. My Hebrew isn't yet good enough that I can compose a letter or article with the speed that I'm writing this comment. It took me all of five minutes to type what you see. It would take at least twice that long for me to do so in Hebrew. That's why I'm writing here instead of Walla! or Yediot Ahronot On-line, or trying to get pieces into Makor Rishon or Hamodia. Reuven

Comment by gazelle on The "Offended" Offenders

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 04:32:03 EST

Ruvy: What I say is less than worthless unless it is written in Hebrew Could you elaborate - what does writing in Hebrew mean in today's Israel? g

Comment by Bliffle on The "Offended" Offenders

Sun, 19 Feb 2006 23:08:25 EST

I'm about fed up with muslim extremists. I've had my fill of petulant excesses and childishly unreasonable demands. There are more important things to do. Why shouldn't any reasonable nation simply bar them from immigration and even hesitate to issue visas?

Comment by sr on The "Offended" Offenders

Sun, 19 Feb 2006 22:49:49 EST

Ruvy and Elvira, nice talking to you.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:15:04 EST

Gazelle, I'm telling you this as a Jew who believes in the G-d of Israel and in His prophecies. "Compromises" on the ground will only bring death. They will not happen - not because I agree with them or not. I'm a mere English speaking immigrant in a nation whose government doesn't respect English speaking immigrants, only English speaking non-Jewish officials. What I say is less than worthless unless it is written in Hebrew, and the news cycle is too fast for me to do that. "Compromises" will not occur because the G-d of Israel will step in at a certain point and impose His will on the situation. It is that simple. If I didn't have that faith, I would still be selling whopper sandwiches at a Burger King in Minnesota. So I'm staking my life on my beliefs. In the end, there will be reconciliation between the Children of Israel and the Children of Ishmael. It will not come from the hands of politicians, and there will be a high price paid on both sides. But the reconciliation will come. And when it does, the Land of Israel will stretch according to its Biblical borders, and the Children of Ishmael will bless their cousins in peace. Shavua Tov - have a good week

Comment by gazelle on The "Offended" Offenders

Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:41:37 EST

Ruvy, i wish you a greater israel, but without smoking more than x times 6 million arabs, if you can manage it. I don't want to imagine what you are capable of. On the ground hamas will compromise. in new equations on both sides. so will you. That land should have everyone coexisting jew muslim arab christian askenazi sephardi falasha algerian indian palestinian faithless in one whole - that can be israel, and it will not any more test my tolerance. I find it amusing that you suggest living over dying in the current scenario, although i cant find anymore where you say that. I imagine a wry smile. best

Comment by Elvira Black on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 23:01:43 EST

Well alrighty then. I must admit that my knowlege of the history of the Arab Israeli conflict is woefully inadequate, and for that I am deeply ashamed. However, "reasonable" or not, as an American and a Jew, I support Israel, in part because history has shown that Jews have been persecuted and outsted time after time and thus need a homeland. Since the holy land is sacred to three major religious groups, this makes for an unholy bloody mess. If this makes me a "perpetual victim," so be it. If one goes far back enough in history, one might remember that the Jews were once slaves in Egypt. And the Holocaust is definitely not a myth. During WW II, Jews were turned away from a number of countries where they sought safe haven, which was a veritable death sentence. So I can't really blame Jews for wanting some piece of land they can call their own, without danger of being driven out or persecuted further (fat chance of that). As far as cries of imperialism etc, I think that the struggle over land is virtually hard wired into homo sapiens. If my recollection of history is correct I imagine that, right or wrong, this is how most modern countries came to be. How many nations throughout time have been conquered and their indigenous people slaughtered and/or marginalized? The US is a prime example of this, but this is certainly far from unique--more like a universal "imperative"--fair and right or not. I think that Israel's "ambitions" are considerably more modest than most. Let me cease and desist , since I think this strays from the point of the post... Speaking of which, thanks ss, for the very relevant comment. Recent events in particular seem to demonstrate to me that the Arab world will accept nothing less than complete surrender of the land to them and the ousting of Israel. This does not bode well for any kind of "working out of differences." And frankly, I think that secular Muslims would be scared shitless to say anything even if they disagree with what is happening for fear of reprisal.

Comment by ss on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:16:12 EST

Here's a specific example that acually relates to Elvira's post: I've noticed, in the blogospere anyway, that even Muslims who seem pretty secular and seem to like living in Europe have used this cartoon controversy to vent on their favorite obsession, the 'double standard' the west applies to Israel and the Arabs. We've pushed the Israelis to give up land for 15 yrs now, and still the elements in the Muslim world we should be able to see (more)eye to eye with nuture this obsession, that goes right up to the edge of antisemitism, and sometimes crosses it. (Check out pickledpolitics for a good example of this) This leaves practicly no one in the entire Muslim world to stem the constant flow of outright, virulent antisemitism that's such a constant feature of the Arab media. If we'd push the Israelis a little less on land, (till they get a negotiating partner, at least)and occasionally condemn some of the Israeli tactics, maybe more secular Muslims could drop the obsession with the double standard and concentrate more on what's wrong in their own community. It may not work, but considering the success of 'Valley of the Wolves' in Turkey, if we can't find a way to bring secular Muslims who like the west to the fornt, what we've been doing is just going to put the Islamist who screams 'dirty jew' the loudest into elected office.

Comment by zingzing on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:06:33 EST

ruvy in j-town: "Zing, I'm working on the assumption that you are an American. When was the last time Americans burned down foreign buildings, locked up foreigners, etc. over a perceived insult like a cartoon?" THAT'S THE PROBLEM! arabs are not being assimilated into the culture. if they were an accepted part of danish society (that they aren't is everyone's fault), then these cartoons probably never would have been printed in the first place. if arabs could move to a place and not instantly form ghettos, and if native europeans could recognize their worth to society and not exhibit such racism, then the world would be a much better place. of course, that would mean the world would be free of racism and religious fanaticism, which is just a fucking dream. but your concept of "defend[ing] your own honor" is so horribly dated, i wonder if you need to oil up that crusades-era armor in order to get out of it. got some wd-40? i know you are jewish, but there is a very christian concept, hell, it might be jewish too, called "turn the other cheek." you constantly bash the muslims for their "kill the non-believer" shit, yet you say the same goddamn thing. the religious, tolerant way to think is not "beat them back," it's "embrace your enemy." no one wants to die. martyrdom is a religious concept, and it's been manipulated and perverted by generations of upper-class, hidden leaders that tell the little people (maybe like you) to die for your "honor" or your "religion" or your "god." i wish all the people who want to die for their religion (or some line drawn on a map that can't be seen in the sand), would just go ahead and get it done with, die now. then, the people who want to just try to live, no matter how or where or with whom, could give that a shot. if you want to die, die. if you don't, learn to live in the real world.

Comment by ss on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:53:40 EST

Dave: I was pointing out to Ruvy that no matter how good your military and intelligence apparatus is, you're not going to solve the problem of terrorism relying on soley on your superior force. And I realy don't revile the U.S., Dave. On the whole, I'd say we shoot for the win-win (with possibly us winning a little more) more often than not. The only thing I see really wrong is that we have an 'ends justifies the means' mentality, and when we do abuse our power, we tend to ignore all critism.

Comment by Dave Nalle on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:46:52 EST

No offense Ruvy, but you all have won every war you've fought, the Mossad and Shin Bet are the envy of the world intel community and what do you have to show for it? So let me get this straight, SS. You and the world revile the US for a couple of isolated incidents of torture and a small number of long-term detainees in Guantanamo, but praise Israel for keeping an entire nation of people prisoners in their own land and regularly engaging in torture and state sponsored murder. Come again? Dave

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:25:51 EST

Now to serious business. ss; It is one thing to win a military victory; it is quite another to consolidate it. Let's look at the Six Day War as an example. In fact it is the basic "dugm�" (framework) for you to understand why we in Israel are in the shit-hole we are. In early June 1967, the Israeli army sat on the shores of the Suez, the shores of the Jordan, in el Quneitra in the Heights of Golan. Our flag flew on the Temple Mount. Not only that, the Egyptian airforce was non-existent, its tank forces were obliterated, the Syrians were in disarray, but most important, the Arabs in the territory liberated from Jordan were at the bridges of the Jordan ready to flee. Moshe Dayan, the Chief of Staff, made two mistakes that have cost us thousands of lives, endless grief and billions of shekels. First, he allowed the Arabs to to return to their homes, or more precisely, he prevented them from fleeing by blowing up ther bridges on the Jordan. Second, he handed the keys to the Temple Mount to the Arabs. Refusing to do either - and annexing the territory liberated from Jordan and Syria immediately - would have consolidated the victory. Everybody would have bitched and moaned and screamed - they hate it when a Jew wins and makes sure that he keeps the spoils - but the issue would have been resolved. Conslolidating a victory means clearing the potential enemy from YOUR soil. If you can't (or refuse to) do that, you have not won. Period. So, Moshe Dayan pissed away the victory we won nearly forty years ago in an attempt to look magnanimous. Screw magnanimity!! See what it has gotten us? Now look over the events of the last forty years with an eye to an alternative history that would not include Arab control of any part of the Land of Israel, and a synagogue on the Temple Mount. Would a war have broken out in 1973? Probably. Would it have had the same result? There you see the imponderables involved in how people would relate to their country. Israelis would relate to Shehem differently than they did to Nablus. Would there have been an intifada? NO. Would there be Hamas in Ramallah? No? Would Israelis be condemned as imperialists, Nazis, etc.? Probably. Gazelle would still write, as she did in comment #1 to this post: "The cartoons are anti-zionist, not anti-semitic. The reason is israel's "Occupation" of Palestine, the forced displacement of palestinians, some into 50 year old camps! Resolve that issue and many of these problems will disappear." Would any Israeli give a damn about Gazelle saying things like this? No. To sum up, we did not win all these wars. We prevented a military destruction of our country, but did not consolidate the military victory. This was only done in 1949, when the Arabs living here fled (or were driven out), and those that remained were forced to live under a military government. Now where does G-d come into all of this. Believing Jews are starting to understand that the victory in 1967 was a gift from G-d - a gift that we spurned. The non-believers MAY understand this when their homes and wives are aflame from a massive missile strike that will come out way in the not too distnat future.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:40:39 EST

Elvira, here is ther comment I left on the other blog. Ruvy in Jerusalem said... Muttawa beat me to the punch. The source of most of this garbage is the hijacking of Islam by the Wahhabi sect of Arabia. Some American businessmen (including Prescott Bush, Dubya's grampa) helped one of the Wahhabi chieftains attain power in Arabia, a fellow named ibn Saud. The Bush family has been nothing more than headwaiters for the Saud family ever since. The Wahhabis are nothing more than camel drivers with a vicious distortion of Isalm for a religion and an ambition to rule the world. They are behind the Moslem Brotherhood, Al Qaeda and the Taliban, along with all the madrassas world wide that teach only hatred of the non-Moslem. They are a cancer within Islam that, unless checked and destroyed themselves, will destroy Islam entirely.

Comment by Elvira Black on The "Offended" Offenders

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 04:29:57 EST

Ruvy: The comment you left on the post I referenced seemed to clarify certain things for me in a nutshell. Wish you'd repeat it here or let me paste it in? Again, thanks to everyone for the great comments.

Comment by ss on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:27:30 EST

No offense Ruvy, but you all have won every war you've fought, the Mossad and Shin Bet are the envy of the world intel community and what do you have to show for it? 4.5 million Palestinians who won't move and vote for the more violent of the two terrorist groups that dominate their politics. It's made Israel the living proof that everything America's going to spend the next fifty years trying turns out to be just as ineffective as peace at any price. If 'give peace a chance' appeasement is ineffective and 'give total war a chance' is just as ineffective you can keep the cycle going forever or you can try something else. Or you can believe it's ok when the worst finally happens because it was god's will anyway.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:45:20 EST

Zing, I'm working on the assumption that you are an American. When was the last time Americans burned down foreign buildings, locked up foreigners, etc. over a perceived insult like a cartoon? If I had been the Danish premier, I'd have pulled out my embassies and ambassadors from any Arab country that even mouthed a threat, cancelled any aid programs to these countries, kicked out the Syrian, Pakistani and Lebanese diplomats, after subjecting them to beatings from my own thugs in the Danish police, frozen Syrian and Lebanese assets in Denmark and expelled ALL Arabs and their families in Danish jails after confiscating their passports and denying them further entry to Denmark. The bureaucrats in Brussels may have bitched, but I'd be the most popular Danish premier in history. The left wing press would bitch and I'd just smile. Fascism for fascists would be the response. And most of the Danes would eat it up. That is the kind of guts I imagine Aryeh might have been talking about (though I can't talk for him)... One has to be willing to fight if someone attacks you. The Danish government was unwilling to take offensive action to clarify to Arab regimes that this behavior (riots, attacks, etc.) would not be tolerated, and that there would be stiff consequences for it. The reason is that they think like atheists. If you are not willing to defend your own honor, you will be stepped on - again and again.

Comment by ss on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:31:10 EST

Well put, zing. The trend each player needs to address to avoid drifting into the religious war (IMO): The Europeans need to quit using 'multiculturalism' as a nice progressive sounding mask for their own xenophobia. The ghettos just make all their worst fears about Muslims come true. The Muslims need to quit feeding their own anti-semitism/antiWest sentiment every time they feel they're treated unfairly. The groups in the Muslim world who benifit most from that just make thier own worst fears about how they're viewed/treated by the West come true. America needs to quit using its unprecedented power in the world as a toy for the arm chair generals back home. The (false) credibilty and unending line of recruits this provides guys like Osama just makes our worst fears come true. The Israelis need to give up their own sense of divine entitlement. The sympathy this generates for the Palestinians lets them get away with way to much they shouldn't, and makes the Israelis worst fears come true The Israelis have a legitimate gripe when it comes to every government in the world seeing what Israel needs to do but not looking in the mirror and holding up their own end.

Comment by zingzing on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:21:24 EST

oh, fuck... that comment from ruvy's fellow israeli is foolish and will only lead to religious warfare. "defending [your] culture" doesn't have to include self-sacrifice. culture is a moving, vibrant thing, constantly changing (and struggling) to suit all that live in it. even israeli culture changes. even eskimo culture changes. denying this change is the only thing that will kill a culture. european culture is not dead, obviously. the influx of arab influence into europe will cause some growing pains. for the culture of europe (not european culture, but the culture of europe) to survive, native europeans and arab immigrants both need to work together to make sure that immigrants are properly absorbed, adding their culture to the culture that already existed. what your buddy is saying here is, "in the coming religious war, the arabs will win because the europeans don't have their god backing them up." whatever. just avoid the fucking religious war. europe need not be another middle east.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:47:53 EST

I ran into a very interesting article and an even more interesting comment on it in my e-mail box today. The article, by Victor Davis Hanson, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute asks, in the wake of all these problems with rioting over cartoons, "What Will Europe Do?" The article seemed innocuous enough. The comment that came with it is what I'd like you folks to consider. It's from Aryeh Zelasko, a fellow who lives in Israel. A thought I had never really considered... "Whatever Europe will do it will be too little and too late. They are a dead culture and have no children. Unless they are willing to actively revive religion as the central point of European culture, they will never generate the kind of fervor to begin repopulating Europe and creating a cultural identity. Atheists are inherently cowards and will do anything to preserve their lives. That is, after all, their only value, staying alive. Only someone who truly believes that there is more to existence than this world and its fleeting physical gratifications can make the sacrifices to raise a family, defend their culture and if necessary offer their life for G-D and country. The Arabs have that, the Europeans do not." In two paragraphs, Mr. Zelasko captured the essence of the crisis gripping Israel today - the chasm between believers in G-d and those who reject Him. In this country, those who reject Him control the government, the army, nearly all of the media, and most of the money. That leaves the rest of us with little but our faith - and the knowledge that what we do will last and that what the non-believers do won't.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:41:31 EST

Elvira, If you look up my comments to Blog Critics, you'll see I have been singing this song about the Wahhabi like a broken record - and insisting repeatedly that there is no such thing as an Islamo-fascist - and constantly saying that the terrorist enemyhas an address. I should bang my head against the wall. "Mr. Insensitive" (David Brown) has posted another article whinig about Islamo-fascism and confusing the issues concerning Islam.

Comment by Elvira Black on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 07:09:41 EST

Ruvy: That was a great and enlightening comment--wish you'd cut and paste it here just for good measure. Thanks to everyone for the most recent comments. I've been contemplating responding to some with questions and such, but I keep asking myself, do I want to quibble here? Though I have issue with a few things, I think the larger picture is being portrayed. But I may change my mind later.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 05:22:17 EST

Elvira, I went to the blog you recommended and left a memento there.

Comment by Elvira Black on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:19:19 EST

Ruvy, I'd like to know what's going to happen in Flatbush next year. My prediction: real estate prices will go up (lol). PS: I had to share this terrifically written editorial concerning Muslim outrage with whomever might be interested.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on The "Offended" Offenders

Thu, 16 Feb 2006 02:02:06 EST

If you're going to toss seers into the mix, there was a fellow who lived in Scotland or northern England who foretold events in his county with astounding accuracy. Thing was, his vision was very local, kind of like someone who could tell you what would happen in Flatbush next year, but didn't have a clue about Coney Island. Also I forgot his name (shame shame).