1. MEMRI is not non-partisan - it is associated with the neocons, with a Likud inclination - so in no way neutral, buta propagand a machine. look at people in the about page

2. The cartoons are anti-zionist, not anti-semitic. The reason is israel's "Occupation" of Palestine, the forced displacement of palestinians, some into 50 year old camps!
Resolve that issue and many of these problems will disappear. this in no way equates with Der Sturmer propaganda, where the discrimination was against the jews, here the oppressed are the palestinians.

3. The Danish cartoons were about muhammad. the adversarial opposite of this are not the cartoons which 'ridicule' jews - but Moses, or Jesus. You will, of course, not find these because muslims revere jesus or moses and the rest of the prophets starting with adam, with special preference for muhammad as the final prophet. so anti-israel or anti-jewish cartoons are not the same as anti-muhammad ones.

4. the cartoon issue is not a freedom of speech issue - its been made out to be one - its an editorial policy issue, in the Danish domestic political environment where the right wing parties have been generating hate against foreigners. That's the real issue not the freedom to express or not express or think or not think.



best

1. MEMRI is not non-partisan - it is associated with the neocons, with a Likud inclination - so in no way neutral, buta propagand a machine. look at people in the about page

I knew this was coming. Next we'll have people claiming that since the sources for the cartoons are Jewish groups the cartoons are forgeries made by jews to discredit the arab media.

2. The cartoons are anti-zionist, not anti-semitic.

Wrong. The subject-matter may be anti-zionist, but the stereotypical negative depiction of jews is clearly anti-semitic in the most classic sense.

The reason is israel's "Occupation" of Palestine, the forced displacement of palestinians, some into 50 year old camps!

Did you even look at the cartoons? Most of them had nothing to do with the Palestinian issue.

3. The Danish cartoons were about muhammad. the adversarial opposite of this are not the cartoons which 'ridicule' jews - but Moses, or Jesus. You will, of course, not find these because muslims revere jesus or moses and the rest of the prophets starting with adam, with special preference for muhammad as the final prophet. so anti-israel or anti-jewish cartoons are not the same as anti-muhammad ones.

Cartoons about Jesus would not be equivalent because the US and the various European nations are not 'Christian' nations. Mohammed was both a religious and a political figure and these cartoons target his political role, so cartoons with negative depictions of jews in general or Uncle Sam are exactly equivalent.

4. the cartoon issue is not a freedom of speech issue - its been made out to be one - its an editorial policy issue, in the Danish domestic political environment where the right wing parties have been generating hate against foreigners. That's the real issue not the freedom to express or not express or think or not think.

The right to set your own editorial policy IS freedom of speech.

Dave

Dave:
Magnificently put.

Gazelle:
Passsover is one of the most revered Jewish holidays. To assert that Jews drink the blood of children during Passover is a direct affront to the religion of Judaism.

What does denying the Holocaust have to do with Israel? That is an egregious lie and a slap in the face to the MILLIONS of Jews and non-Jews who perished during this shameful time.

The cartoon debacle goes way beyond being a religious issue, particularly at this point. Extremist groups have fanned the flames for their own political ends. In any case, there is no excuse for the mass rioting, arson, and even deaths which have become a consequence of this unholy mess.

The cartoons and videos cited are clearly anti-Semitic, vile, and inaccurate, to say the least.

sorry for asking all to look at the same website maybe the news of the world should be paying me to do this :

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/armyvideo.shtml

p.s. dont watch this video of troops beating Iraqi kids to a pulp if ure eating it may put u off ure food.

Imran:
Unless it is my computer, that had to be the worst quality video I've ever seen. I did not see what you claim is there.

The voiceover sounded totally phony as well.

Isn't the News of the World considered the National Inquirer of the UK?

Yep ure right aint nothing happening over in Iraq except Iraqi's killing US marines ( oh sorry am i allowed to say that) and soldiers handing out sweets to kids in order to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

Elvira (what a great name) we dont have a paper that claims UFO sightings and shows men with two heads etc etc etc over here what we have are some papers which show pics of semi naked woman that a section of the population find offensive.

And thats all it is a paper that has a large sports section a couple of pics of semi-naked ladies and are normally 100% pro British.


How did u not see what i said was there?

im gonna go watch it again

P.s. if its the quality of the video that is now under scrutiny is it not about time that the beheadings in Iraq be looked into again?
Cuz believe me i didnt watch them too closely but they were more backstreet in Baghdad then Hollywood and i didnt here anyone rubbishing them!

(actually i couldnt watch them at all as i was ashamed of what these people were doing in the name of the religion i follow)

But Hitler killed Jews!

What does this have to do with the post?

things like this is what enrages muslims but nothing is done about it Hitler did kill Jews and i appreciate the fact that that was one of the biggest crimes is recent history, but the crime being commited today under our very noses and in our name as the civilized people of the west is what i am talking about

we cant do anything about Hitler now apart from remind our children never to allow anything like that to happen again, but we must take a step back as we are in danger missing the fact that similar acts( if not too a much smaller extent) are happening today and they are happening in the name of Justice and Peace when infact they are happening in order to fill the pockets of already rich beyond belief individuals.

Imran:

I appreciate your comments, but as Matthew points out, the war in Iraq is a whole 'nother cup of meat.

Many Americans are against, or ambivalent, about the war in Iraq. My focus here is specifically on anti-Semistism in the Muslim world.

I have never seen the videos of beheadings because I could not stomach them. It's like blood-porn. But I'll bet the video quality was superb for that, no? Or at least better than the clip you provided.

Hi
my other comments are adequate, except the main one. Dave Said:

The right to set your own editorial policy IS freedom of speech.

Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006
From: Louise Moana Kolff
Subject: Re: publication of "Jyllands-Posten" cartoons is not "freedom of thepress"

Logically I can follow both points of view, and agree "freedom of the press" is an
important and interesting discussion.

Subjectively, however, as a Dane I cannot help feel that the publication of the
cartoons was wrong. In this discussion it is important to not only look at whether
or not the press has the "right" to publish the cartoons, but to also understand
what lead to the publication, and what is going on in the Danish society at the
moment. The whole debate was originally fuelled by the fact that the Danish prime
minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, in October refused to meet with 11 muslim
ambassadors to even discuss the issue of the cartoons. A decision to dismiss any
form of debate, that angered and disappointed the Danish muslim community. A
symptom of the political climate currently existing in Denmark.

I have not been living in Denmark for the last 7 years, and am shocked every 6
months when I visit. The political climate, and the mentality of the people and
the press has changed so extremely over the years, that I wonder what happened to
the Denmark and the Danes I thought I knew. When returning with the train during
the last elections, my first impression after crossing the border was a row of
posters along the platform with the slogan "A fresh breath of air over the
country". This was part of the campaign for the very right wing nationalistic
party "Dansk Folkeparti" (Danish People's Party), which is now part of the
government coalition. Parliament members of this party have publicly come with
statements, which would be completely unacceptable and often illegal coming from
members of a government party in most other EU countries.

A few examples: Pia Kj=E6rsgaard (the party leader) 2005:

"They would never have been able to imagine (in 1900), that large parts of
Copenhagen and other cities in 2005 would be populated by people of a lower level
of civilization. Bringing with them primitive and terrible customs like honour
killing, forced marriage, halal butchery and blood revenge. That's exactly what's
happening."

Jesper Langballe (said in parliament) 2002: "... we have said that Islam must be
fought against, because of course it must be, just like nazism and communism was
fought against... This means fighting a religion, that with the expression of
Harvig Frisch, is a pest over Europe"

This is the tone the debate has been allowed to take. And when it has become
acceptable and legal to use such language by members of the government, then the
norm of what is morally acceptable to say in the public debate and the press also
shifts.

I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say, that in the press maybe 80% of the news
and discussion is about foreigners, integration, and the government's policy
towards immigrants and refugees (It would be interesting to know whether there are
actually statistics...). Therefore the Danes are constantly bombarded by this
issue, making it into the biggest "problem" of Danish society (though the number
of immigrants and descendants of immigrants is less than 8% of the population).
Many new immigration and integration laws have been passed within the last years
making it extremely difficult for immigrants and foreigners in general. The laws
are some of the toughest in Europe.

So in the light of this political and public climate, the cartoons have less to do
with the freedom of press, and more to do with a continuation of the role the
press has been playing in general in hyping the issue of "the Muslim threat" and
"the foreign invasion" to an all time high. Satire in a balanced public debate is
very different to satire in a country where the government and press have already
identified and promoted the idea of the "scapegoat". It is then not a question of
whether or not the press should have the right to publish the cartoons, but
whether or not the publication will have a positive or negative effect on society.
In this case I would without doubt say the effects have been devastating.

Louise Moana Kolff

wow....

Imran, I would advise against posting the off topic video link to too many threads or an editor is going to start deleting the comments.

As I said on the other one you posted it on, the video is completely impossible to make out and the voice over sounds faked after the fact. There's no discernable violence, just a couple of people being peacefully subdued. Hundreds of Arabs are treated worse than this every day at border crossings in Israel, and it certainly doesn't begin to compare with blowing up women and children as the terrorists do.

Gazelle: I said freedom of speech and beyond it freedom of thought are not at issue, not editorial freedom either. What is at issue definitely is the editorial policy, the editorial judgement.

The Freedom is not being criticised, the judgement is!

It's all part of the same thing. You can't differentiate the two. If you don't like the editorial choices a paper makes, don't buy it. It's a business, so that will ultimately do some harm to them.

Dave

I think the anti-semitism by the muslims may be a reaction to Isreal's policy against the Palestinians and its strong ties with the very powerful big brother USA.
And this is wrong because as all muslims should not be accused of being supporters of suicide bombers all jews should not be blamed for the policy adopted by Isreal.
If we dont agree with Isreal we should do what many muslims have chosen to do with Denmark and stop buying or selling Danish products.
We should go to palestine and help our muslim brothers re-build their lives and stand on there own feet. we cant blame we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves down and start again just as the jews have had to do countless times in history.
I appreciate that i am sitting here in the plush suburbs of middle England (UK) tapping away at my laptop and have never heard a gun go off in my life never mind having lost families or limbs. but this is what i think is the way forward.
This theory would be given a massive boost if one or two prominent jews would come forward and admit that the policies adopted by isreal towards the palestinians are too heavy handed. just as many muslims have come out and repeatedly admitted that suicide bombing is a terrible thing.

They would never have been able to imagine (in 1900), that large parts of Copenhagen and other cities in 2005 would be populated by people of a lower level of civilization. Bringing with them primitive and terrible customs like honour killing, forced marriage, halal butchery and blood revenge. That's exactly what's happening.

They forgot to mention gang rape of white Danish girls. The only fault I can find with your quote is that that these barbaric Muslim animals were dignified as belonging to ANY level of civilization: (from sharia.dk)

Living on the dole: Third-world immigrants - most of them Muslims from countries such as Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq - constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.

Engaging in crime: Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5,4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.

Self-imposed isolation: Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.

Importing unacceptable customs: Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death - are one problem.

Another threat is to kill Muslims who convert out of Islam: One Kurdish convert to Christianity, who went public to explain why she had changed religion, felt the need to hide her face and conceal her identity, fearing for her life.

Fomenting anti-Semitism: Muslim violence threatens Denmark's approximately 6,000 Jews, who increasingly depend on police protection. Jewish parents were told by one school principal that she could not guarantee their children's safety and were advised to attend another institution. Anti-Israel marches have turned into anti-Jewish riots. One organization, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, openly calls on Muslims to "kill all Jews ... wherever you find them."

Seeking Islamic law: Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a not-that remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim.

Thank God the Danes are finally awakening out of their multiculturalist stupor. Hopefully this is not coming too late for them to be able to save their country.

well if islamic law did rule over the Danes, then these rapist would be killed ( stoned to death), these forced marriages will become a thing of the past ( cultural rather then religious), and all this talk of killing the jews would stop cuz aint non of that crap written in the scriptures.
Some of these people that u describe are worse then the cartoonists themselves as what they are doing is muddying the name of Islam from the Inside.
But i feel that a true picture of the muslims from Denmark isnt being portrayed by ureself!
there is a saying here in the Uk which goes
"lies, damn lies and statistics"
Statistics can be twisted and turned to make things appear not exactly how they seem and the addition of one or two exagerated ones can also make the reader believe what is being said.

You must be aware Richard that the same evils that lead innocent men woman and children to commit suicide bombing missions against other innocent men women and children are showing in the tone of ure writing. Be carefull that who u talk to is actually telling u the truth and not just trying to convince u that the Far Right way is the right way...because we dont wanna read in our history books that the muslim holocaust started in Denmark in 2005 with the publications of inflammatory cartoons!!
And i dont wanna stop having Lurpak Butter on my Chuppatis for too long as i did like the taste!

Imran:

"well if islamic law did rule over the Danes, then these rapist would be killed ( stoned to death), ..."

Actually, in Islamic countries the female victim is more likely to be stoned to death under a claim od "adultery".

"....these forced marriages will become a thing of the past ( cultural rather then religious), and all this talk of killing the jews would stop cuz aint non of that crap written in the scriptures."

Even so, muslims are committing these crimes. And they justify these crimes with Islam.

"You must be aware Richard that the same evils that lead innocent men woman and children to commit suicide bombing missions..."

NO homicide bombers are innocent. None.

Richard here is an article for u please follow the link

http://www.counterpunch.org/itani02022006.html

Did u know its illegal to be anti-semitic in alot of european countries?

Bliffle:
there u go, ure comments show the lack of braincells that occupy the space between ure two ears. Go take a nap and when u come back remind ureself that we are talking about what Islam actually teaches and not how it is interpreted as by those who wish to immoralize it. Over a sixth of the worlds population is muslim and many islamic countries had the vote for woman while in the west they were still considered 2nd class so dont gimme the far right crap that has brainwashed ure childish skull!

Imran:

"well if islamic law did rule over the Danes, then these rapist would be killed ( stoned to death), ..."

What we see is that the VICTIM, not the perp is likely to get stoned under a pretext of adultery. Do you have evidence otherwise?

"...You must be aware Richard that the same evils that lead innocent men woman and children to commit suicide bombing missions against other innocent men women and children..."

NO suicide bombers are innocent.

They are innocent in the same way u are innocent. They are sent out there brainwashed by the people that claim to have the answer to the problems they face and u are being brainwashed by radical far right groups that blame other groups of people for taking their jobs, woman etc etc etc

I wouldnt blame u if u hated muslims, i would just think some clever bastards have got in to ure head or he's so thick he thinks his life being crap is a direct result of muslims.

Bliffle:
Evidence to prove that a totally fictional sentence that u just plucked out of thin air is false!

do u have any evidence to disprove that some Icelandic nomads dont roam iceland in miniskirts?

No! how surprising.

the anti-muslim bias is clearly wrong, there are many muslims who have much to contribute to the west. The problem is the choice of immigrants that europe had taken. Europeans had taken a large percentage of the rural muslims most backwards and uneducated. they had taken worthless drags from the villages in tunisia, algeria and morocco instead of taking professionals and the well educated. The solution is simple stop taking trash and concentrate on the worthy urban muslims

Quote from Cherie Blair (prime minister Tony Blairs wife and high court solicitor)

"As long as young people feel they have got no hope but to blow themselves up you are never going to make progress."

Saying in effect that we have to make these young people believe that there is hope.

from the article referenced by Imran: You can curse the Prophet of the Muslims at will and with total impunity. However, approach the holocaust at your own risks and perils if you do not include in your discussion the standard, ritualistic incantations about the six million Jewish victims of the European Nazis. There is a word for this in the English language: hypocrisy.

Well, to be techinically correct it is not "hypocrisy" (look up the definition of that English word - it means professing to be against something that you yourself engage in - and so hypocrisy would consist in professing to be against anti-Semitism while at the same time being anti-Semitic). But it most definitely is "inconsistency".

To make it a consitent policy, however, Freedom of Speech should not be FURTHER constricted by extending the ban on anti-Semitic speech to include Muslims. No. The correct policy is to do away with the anti-FreeSpeech ban against being able to say negative things about Jews.

Freedom of Speech means Freedom of Speech - the freedom to express any opinion, positive or negative, about any political OR RELIGIOUS ideology, movement, doctrine, policy, practice, founder, or leader. Freedom of Speech is the most fundamental of all the freedoms that Western Civilization is based upon.

In this regard, I suppose it occupies the same place for Western, secular societies, that reverence for Mohammed occupies for Islamic societies. Has the West ever tried to intervene in any Muslim country and demand that its citizens give up that which is most precious and important to them, namely their reverence and respect for Mohammed (pbuh)? Of course not, and I'm sure you know that you don't have to worry that the West would ever do that.

So have the decency to reciprocate that courtesy. Do not try to intervene in any Western country, and demand that ITS citizens give up that which is most precious and important to them, namely their reverence and respect for the principle of Freedom of Expression.

And don't just refrain from asking that we GIVE UP that principle. Don't even suggest that we need to modify it a little bit, or make it less absolute - just as we would never suggest that, while we think it's fine for you to revere your Prophet (pbuh), we nevertheless think that you are being a little too strict, and that you should not be quite so all-consumed and intense about it. Because that would be a boorish butting in to your affairs, which you would be perfectly justified in resenting - just as we in the West resent Muslims trying to dictate to us how they think we need to water down our Freedom of Speech.

What it boils down to is mutual civil respect. And that doesn't mean that we have to agree with, and only say positive things about each others' respective political and religious philosophies. I just means that we respect your right to live your lives however you want to in your own countries, and you respect ours.

the problems with muslims is that they are trying to force people to do what they think is right. you can dictate it in lebanon, syria, iran or other places in middle east in the west we care less about your beliefs, just as we should not tell you what to believe. muhammed is not a prophet to us and we should show him no respect unless we wish to do so

Richard:
Why do i picture u in a flood of tears crying while typing ure reply ...hm i dont know.
QUOTE

"......Has the West ever tried to intervene in any Muslim country and demand that its citizens give up that which is most precious and important to them...."

Yes Regime change Regime change Regime change saddam was a secular leader he was no islamist and ure boys game along and turned it in to a Shia state not that there is anything wrong with that but if in twenty years time Iran and Iraq become one and u dont like it...dont u dare go running to the UN to ligitamise a war!!!!

And in Algeria when the islamists took power and now that Hamas has taken power in Palestine ure saying change ure political stance ( although i agree that Hamas should renounce violence the fact that talks can only be held if Hamas changes a key policy even though they were elected by the people for maybe that very policy, so still the palestinians have no voice)

So Imran, you're saying that Saddam was precious to the people of Islam? Despite the fact that he was a socialistic secularist? Come again?

Dave

just to squeeze a word in: excellent article, Elvira, well said. 'Nuff said.

no im saying these are forced changes that have taken place due to the west, and therefore an outsider taking control of someone elses country and changing its politics!
Saddam was a tyrant but we dont know if he would ever have killed the number of people that have died in the war to win the hearts and minds of the iraqi's.
Maybe next time the hearts and minds need to be won semi-depleted uranium should be put on the backburner...it kind of breaks the ice in a way thats rather detrimental to your hosts health!

Imran, are you at all familiar with what has gone on in Iraq? Your last comment would suggest that you aren't. The political change in Iraq has been merely to remove Saddam and then let the Iraqis pick their own government. That's not the same as forcing an unwanted government on them.

Saddam killed an average of 1000 people a month during the course of his regime. Based on that he likely would have killed slightly more than have died as a result of the war in Iraq during the same period - and the people would not be free.

As for the DU issue, it's a non-starter. UN studies have shown that for DU to be dangerous it needs to be directly ingested or injected into the bloodstream. If you're going to eat an artillery shell you've got bigger problems than the DU.

Dave

1000 people a month...dave please ! i aint even gonna entertain that figure which master of spin concocted that figure! if they had said it was 1165 on average would u still have believed them?...did u believe them when they said there were WMD's that could be readied in 45 mins?...did u believe those texans when they saw the space ship with little green men?..did u belive them when they said the world was made in six days?...

Injested well why dont you boys have ureself a party out there and invite some of those good folkes that went out there to kick the terrorists out of Kuwait and see why they are suffering from all the shit there suffering from?

well does getting one of those shells up ure jacksie qualify as injestion or injection its got me stumped.

Hell if Uraniums so safe why cant Iran have it!

over and out!

Imran, you can come up with that figure yourself. Just add up all the people killed by Saddam and divide the total by the number of months he was in power. The number is actually slightly higher than 1000, but I rounded it off. Oh, and it doesn't include casualties directly related to the war with Iran or the first and second Gulf War. It's just civilian casualties.

Dave

Imran: Why do i picture u in a flood of tears crying while typing ure reply ...hm i dont know.

I suggest that you do two things:

1. Take the high road of refraining from making stupid personal innuendos like this.

2. Learn some basic English spellings if you want to participate on an English language discussion board.

a. The word "i" is always capitalized, like this: "I".

b. The second person personal pronoun is spelled "you", not "u".

c. The second person possessive is "your", not "ure".

Now, since you bring up the subject of regime change. I think this was a very mistaken tactic on our part. You are probably right about Iraq eventually voting democracy out, and establishing Sharia law in its place, which will be much worse for them, and for the West, than Saddam Hussein. It will prove to have been a tragic waste of young American lives, even though, as Dave points out, the net loss of Iraqi life from collateral casualities occasioned by our futile attempt to introduce some sanity into the Arab mind, will probably not be much different than the number of lives that would have been lost in the same period of time, if Hussein has been left in power.

Terrorism could be immediately stopped, without any more loss of life on EITHER side, the same way loss of life was avoided during the Cold War. "Freezing" the War on Terror would require the same deterrent that kept the Soviets from thinking about lauching attacks against the United States. I am speaking of course of the policy of "Mutual Assured Destruction."

We must make it absolutely clear to the Muslim mind, that we will not tolerate so much as ONE MORE Islamic terrorist attack on American soil or on the soil of any of our Allies. Otherwise Mecca will be turned into a radioactive sea of glass - followed by city after Arab city as long as such attacks continue.

This will of course be said anticipating that such actions will never be necessary, but with absolute assurance that they will be carried out if we are provoked.

"It's just civilian casualties."

You want to really talk about the civilian casualties? like all those civilians that were VAPORIZED in Japan by the only outlaw nation to ever use an ATOM bomb on NoN-CoMbAtAnTs!

"Otherwise Mecca will be turned into a radioactive sea of glass - followed by city after Arab city"

if that's not terrorism, then what is?

A terrorist is a terrorist,some use shoe-bombs, some use plane-bombs and some use A-bombs. The US gov't is indeed a terrorist nation.

But I've got news for you...........

When you drop your load on Mecca, the Holy birthplace of Muhammad(pbuh)..........ALLAH will drop HIS load on you and you WILL then KNOW the HE IS REAL!!!

That's not a threat.........IT'S A PROMISE!

"It's just civilian casualties."

Whose quote is that?

all those civilians that were VAPORIZED in Japan

The total number of casualites from those explosions was 199,000 (135,000 in Hiroshima and 64,000 in Nagasaki) If those two bombs had not forced the Japanese government to surrender, tens of millions would have been killed in the imminent invasion of the Japanese mainland.

War is hell. But THEY attacked us first, and a couple of hundred thousand VAPORIZED is a lot better than millions dying, many in probably much more painful ways.

So don't give me any nore of your bullshit about America being an "Outlaw Nation" for doing something that saved millions of lives.

The quote is from me, taken out of context and used to express exactly the opposite of what I intended. I'm coming to think that Muhammad Rahim is the arabic spelling of 'troll'.

Dave

"War is hell. But THEY attacked us first, and a couple of hundred thousand VAPORIZED is a lot better than millions dying, many in probably much more painful ways."



terrorist always have a way of justifying their Murder of civilians. Wrong as it was, they attacked the military warships and bases at Pearl Harbor. They didn't VAPORIZE american civilians by the tens of thousands with an ATOM bomb!


saved millions of lives........hahaha. I wonder who's next of the US's list of being saved!

Damn hypocrites!

Just remember what i said in #38...... when you all decide to "SAVE" millions of muslims in Mecca!

That will be one of the biggest mis-calculations in history!

somebody else will be drawing cartoons!

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'd like to once again address the main point of my post here, however--namely, the antisemitic propaganda and cartoons which are widely disseminated in the Arabic world--seemingly with nary a peep of protest or outrage.

I am not out demonstrating, except with my keyboard. I am not calling for a ban on these images. In fact, I would like to see more people SEE these images and videos for themselves, as I don't think they are given much play in the mainstream media.

One of the reasons that unfettered free speech for all is so cherished in the US is because without it, you have the seeds for a dictatorship. If only one version of the "truth" is presented, how can people judge for themselves and debate freely as we are doing here?

As I've mentioned before, our country is deeply divided about our involvement in Iraq. If dissenters were not allowed to divert from the "party line," I shudder to think what would happen to our country.

We have two political parties which are in many ways very much at odds with each other, but we are free to speak our minds no matter which side of the fence we sit on--generally without fearing for our very lives.

We are also a nation of immigrants, and people from all nations and religions have taken advantage of the freedoms and opportunities available to them here. But those who come here cannot expect their adoptive country to obey their religious dictates.

What I see happening in the extremist Muslim world is the same mindset that besets some of our own more fundamentalist citizens here--the desire to impose their religious beliefs on others, and to demonize those who disagree with them.

In Muslim countries, there is no other viewpoint presented. The media are free to print the most outrageous lies; television stations are free to promote anti-Semitic propaganda without a murmur of protest--as those who might protest would fear for their lives.

But I say--show the propaganda and expose it for what it is. To hide one's head in the sand and deny the ugly reality is, to my mind, foolish and perhaps even disastrous.

Since there is separation of church and state in the US, no religious group may impose its dictates on the rest of the country. This is as it should be. I have seen some peaceful protests in front of the UN, but nothing like the chaos and violence that has been spreading like wildfire across the Muslim world.

I am sure that many Muslims deplore this violence, but this is like saying that many Europeans deplored anti-Semitism. By the time the goon squad took over, there was no choice or dissent permitted, and it was too late to do or say anything about it.

I think many young Muslims and even young children are fed the language of hate from birth on and are not given the opportunity to hear any other "truth." Is it any wonder they hate Jews with such a passion? Jews have always been a convenient scapegoat, which is my point here.

Again I'll ask: what did the Jews have to do with the Danish cartoons? And why a Holocaust cartoon contest? Why no furor over the direct affront to the Jewish religion (and to Christianity as well, since the Last Supper was also a Passover seder) when radical Islam declares that Jews drink blood during this sacred and beloved holiday?

Perhaps it is because we are not afraid of free speech, for starters. But I do think this issue is worthy of discussion and dissemination.

It looks like some more feedback has been added since I started this rather long comment, so I'll stop here.

PS to Gordon: Many thanks!

Elvira,
Once again, a great post.

I've read recently that peaceful (for the most part) protests have been staged by Muslims in Denmark. This speaks volumes more to me than any threats the zealots make. Though I strongly side with freedom of the press, I am more willing to respect the concerns of those who would make a stand on peaceful grounds.

KYS: Thank you!
Yes, I don't think chanting "death to X,Y, Z" and setting fires to embassies is really the sane way to go. Freedom of expression cuts both ways, and exercising one's right to protest while threatening those who oppose your views with death doesn't sit too well with me.

Muhammad:
You said:

"somebody else will be drawing cartoons!"

My point is that "somebody else" already is and has been. Did you happen to read the post?

Anti-semetic cartoons are just as wrong as anti-muslim or anti-christian cartoons.

The line that was crossed in this case is WHO the cartoon depicted. I've never seen a cartoon of Jesus sodomizing little boys......like so many catholic priest do! Jesus wasn't an evil sexual pervert so if you're going to draw him as such, it is highly offensive to not only christians, but also muslims. That why so many people are upset about the Muhammad cartoons. They crossed the line! The violence that some muslims have shown in response to this is wrong and unacceptable. It played right into the plot of the people behind the publishing and re-publishing by all the other european countries that did so. What is the motive behind attacking the founding father of ANY religion?

1. An Alternative Interpretation of the Bomber-Head

+ Muhammad Cartoon Interpreted - Satire

2. A Cool and Considered approach to the Cartoon Controversy

+ Passion For Freedom, Or Freedom Of Passion? - an argument

Anti-semetic cartoons are just as wrong as anti-muslim or anti-christian cartoons.

No. Some anti-muslim and anti-christian cartoons are in bad taste. Others serve a perfectly legitimate satirical purpose.

Saying that all cartoons about religions and religious leaders are in the same category, and then labelling that category "wrong", is less than simple-minded. It's just plain infantile.

You of course enjoy the Freedom of Speech on this English language board, to express whatever infantile sentiments you want to. Perhaps you should try and come up with an anti-secular cartoon that lampoons non-religious people, or people who believe in the Freedom to publish cartoons critical of religious figures.

yeah whatever............

but why don't you answer the question?

"What is the motive behind attacking the founding father of ANY religion?"

or is it because the creators of that garbage are the real ones that are "simple-minded"

Muhammad:
Freedom of speech means that "lines" can be "crossed" without resorting to violence and death threats. As I've said before, doesn't the depiction of Jews drinking blood on Passover cross some sort of religious "line?"

If every "offensive" expression of speech were to be thwarted, we would be left with no speech at all. In the case of Muslim extremists, it seems like a very Orwellian scenario--one in which the "truth" is a "lie" and vice versa. Only one version of the "truth"--one full of hatred and vile slander--is permitted. All others, apparently, are banned under threat of death.

Only with free speech can hatred and ignorance be exposed to the light of day and discussed openly. If one bans Nazis from demonstrating in the US, for example, one deprives our citizens of a chance to be aware that such hatred exists and to counter it with counter demonstrations or other direct responses in the press and/or blogosphere. This open exchange of ideas and opinions is as it should be.

Gazelle:
Thanks for the links--I will check out your posts.

Richard:
Well put.

What is the motive behind attacking the founding father of ANY religion?

I know how you like to have one pat answer for everything, but unfortuantely there isn't any ONE motive applicable to all such attackers.

For atheists, the motive if because they think anyone who claimed Gabriel spoke to them is a big fat liar.

For people who belong to some other religion besides the one they are attacking, I imagine there are at least as many different motives as there are possible pairs of religions.

One can only speak for oneself. I come from what I regard as the most benevolent and rational religion in existence, Mormonism. Just like Islam we had a founding Prophet whom I love, but not with the same fanaticism that you love Mohammed (pbuh).

But Joseph Smith did not have the arrogance to set himself up as the "final" prophet. He did not say : "I'm the last prophet. There won't be any other prophets after me." Instead he taught that our Heavenly Father would continue to reveal his will to other successive prophets until the end of the world.

Like Mohammed, he was also a General. But his Nauvoo legion was only for the purpose of defending the Saints against persecution, unlike Mohammed who was an agressive conqueror, subjugator, force-convertor, and edradicator of other nations and cultures.

Joseph taught a polytheism. One of our hymns speaks of Kolob, which he identified as that star in our galaxy around which revolves the celestial planet where Elohim resides, the god who who is over this earth:

If you could get to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward with that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity,
Find out the generation where Gods began to be?

Or see the grand beginning, where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers, "No man has found 'pure space',"
Nor seen the outside curtains, where nothing has a place.

The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter; there is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; there is no end to race.


Mohammed taught of a god who would punish his children , for the crime of not deciding to believe in his portrayal of Him, by causing them to literally burn alive forever, continually supplying them with fresh coats of skin to replace the last one burned off, so that they could be in eternal pain and torment. By contrast, Joseph taught that every person would receive a degree of glory, varying as sun, moon and stars vary in brightness, and that if you could get a glimpse of even the lowest of these kingdoms of glory, you would be tempted to kill yourself just to get there.

It would be unthinkable for Mormonism ever to produce such a monstrosity as a suicide bomber. But I see that phenomenon as a very natural consequence of Islam, considering how in all respects it represents the malevolent antithesis of everything I admire in the teachings of my own Prophet. Hence, I find the bomb-turban cartoon very appropriate, but not nearly as funny as the one about running out of virgins.

Brodie posted:

Like Mohammed, he was also a General. But his Nauvoo legion was only for the purpose of defending the Saints against persecution, unlike Mohammed who was an agressive conqueror, subjugator, force-convertor, and edradicator of other nations and cultures.

Mohammed taught of a god who would punish his children , for the crime of not deciding to believe in his portrayal of Him, by causing them to literally burn alive forever, continually supplying them with fresh coats of skin to replace the last one burned off, so that they could be in eternal pain and torment. By contrast, Joseph taught that every person would receive a degree of glory, varying as sun, moon and stars vary in brightness, and that if you could get a glimpse of even the lowest of these kingdoms of glory, you would be tempted to kill yourself just to get there.

this whole "i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i" response of the "muslim community" vis a vis the cartoon issue shows how intellectually stunted these people are...after all that they have been through, i'll bet the jews are really pissed off now that some muslims with the intellect of plankton are scribbling off some cartoons...what a joke.

Sal, they learned the "i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i" defense from the American left. When you have nothing to stand on in your defense you always accuse the accuser. If you've committed a horendous genocide and someone points it out to you, counter with the fact that Americans killed Indians 130 years ago. It's the playground mentality that two wrongs make a right. Except that the truth is that gouging someone else's eye out doesn't actually make your lost eye grow back.

Dave

Richard and Gazelle:
Not being an expert in comparative religions, I will refrain from commenting on this issue, though the insights were appreciated...

Sal, you said:
" i'll bet the jews are really pissed off now that some muslims with the intellect of plankton are scribbling off some cartoons..."

Disturbing as it is, It's harder to get into as much of a lather about a situation that has been going on for so long...in other words, anti-semitic cartoons from the Muslim world are already legion.

As I also mentioned, I think a bully mentality (or "playground mentality," as Dave puts it) describes it pretty well...

elvira:
my pleasure.

plankton otoh process information intelligently hence evolve unlike other molecules

Adab أدب Humanism & the Renaissance

best

I think the 'Joseph' being referred to is a different Joseph: Mr. Brodie's Joseph is Joseph Smith of Palmyra, NY, born early 1800s; I believe the one Gazelle references is the biblical Joseph who ended up working for Pharoh 'way back when.

Religious takes on various founders are interesting, to say the least. As someone in one of these threads pointed out (not sure where, tho), frequently the person doing the slinging just feels that anyone who claims they talk to God has got to be a liar.

Case in point is Mr. Brodie's Joseph, who was (and to non-Mormons, still is) rather infamous during his lifetime & after for various contretemps with the law. Of course, Mormons see these legal problems from a different point of view than non-Mormons. Whether this stems from ignorance of the truth due to 'spin' practiced by the LDS church, or exaggeration and slander on the part of non-Mormons could be argued, has been, and still is. Anyway, it's an interesting case in religious perception. Islam is the same: from one point of view, Mohammad was a wise, peaceful leader, if taken in the context of his culture & times. Non-muslims have & do take him out of context, however, and charge him with banditry, waging war, etc.

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, Nancy.

I think all religions are wrong. I do believe in a higher power, I just don't try to classify him/her/them/it. I see religion as an organized way to control people and not much more. Sure morality is important, but morality changes from religion to religion so who is to say which one is right. I think we have to create laws that use morality as a tool but are not in themselves "morals." We don't need religion to tell us that killing and steeling is bad.

For society to be as free as possible it must be as secular as possible with as much tolerance as possible. In a secular society you are free to believe it is wrong to drink alcohol for example. That does not give you the right to force that belief on everyone. I see no problem with people drinking alcohol as long as they are not harming others.

Speech has never been completely free. You can't shout "fire" in a crowded building. You cannot print out right lies about someone. And you cannot reprint someone else's copyrighted material without their permission.

The cartoons in question seem to pass all the limits we have on free speech. What should be a great part of western society, but seems to be loosing ground is the fight against the freedom to not be offended. If speech is to be as free as possible I should not be worried about offending people by what I write or draw. The funny thing about the reaction to the cartoons is that the reactions we are seeing are proving the cartoons to hold a good amount of truth.

The concept of freedom of speech is so the opposition cannot be silenced. Also there is the concept that words are just that, words, they cannot hurt you. Action causes hurt, not words. Being offended does not give you the right to take actions that hurt others.

Muslims have every right to be offended by the cartoons. I have every right to be offended when I see some Arab fanatic calling for the killing of American infidels. If I started killing random people of middle-eastern decent because I thought them to be crazy Muslims, I should be sent to jail for a long time.

We as a civilized society should be able to forgive and forget words or images. The thing we cannot do is forgive and forget the riots and damage done by the Muslim fanatics of the world. Actions speak louder then words. And we cannot live in fear that someone could use words or images to justify illegal actions. Another part of the civilized world is dealing with the consequences of our actions. A free world does not have consequences for mere words or images.

Druxxx:
Beautifully, brilliantly put. Thank you.

Muhammad: ".....ALLAH will drop HIS load on you and you WILL then KNOW the HE IS REAL!!!

That's not a threat.........IT'S A PROMISE!"

Are you making threats on gods behalf now? Isn't that a blasphemy? Isn't it a bit arrogant to presume to command god?

Nancy is right, i was thinking of the biblical Joseph - my mistake. Thanks for pointing that out.

Elvira,

You wrote a nice rational post about how Arabs routinely smear our honor.

They will continue to smear our honor so long as we Jews are willing to let them get away with it. This goes for the pagans (nominal Christians) in Europe as well.

Brooklyn boy that I am, I learned a few interesting things from a Brooklyn Rabbi.

"If a man raises his hand to greet you greet him, but if he raises his hand to kill you, kill him first."

In other words, don't waste time talking - act. if you don't want to act, keep quiet and stay out of the way.

I've pointed out elsewhere that if we Jews in Israel reacted as Moslems did to the unceasing insults of a world that wishes we were dead - in spite of all of their fervent denials - no church or foreign embassy would still be standing in Israel, except or that of Nepal, India and Thailand. The mosques of the Circasians would be remain, the worship centers of the Druze, and that of the Baha'i. Everthing else would have been burned to the ground by now.

The time is long past to be reasonable in a world that wants us dead. And, Elvira, don't ever get this wrong. Between the Wahhabi on the one side, and the Vatican on the other, we Jews are in the gunsights.

I don't care how crazy that sounds to you. It's the truth. I don't care what "atheists" who think they know something say either. And Blog Critics is just chock full of them. The world they think is so permanent is on its way out.

That is why I have been silent on this issue.

There are more important things to worry about and pay attention to than cartoons and insults that are as old as Christianity. I've posted on the subjects, too. One dealt with the Iranian nuclear missile threat - the other with bird flu. Go check for comments. Either I'm the most boring writer this side of the Jordan, or the folks in the wide world are just blind.

Ruvy, I was hoping you'd stop by! As usual, you have a unique and interesting take on the topic at hand.

I have to say that I too am infuriated. As a Jew living in NYC, I often find it relatively easy to brush aside the issue of anti-semitism unless it's shoved in my face. And you can't get much more in your face than this whole cartoon debacle.

In a sense, I can understand the anti-Semite's point of view more readily than their apologists'. I see many photos and video clips of children being taught rabid hatred of the West and the Jews from infancy, so they don't even know any other "reality."

But everytime I hear someone say "But you have to understand...this is a terrible affront to Islam, etc etc" I feel like puking. I've always hated it when a "reasonable" "ally" or "observer" tries to be "fair" and "rational" about an obvious injustice to me or mine.

As far as comments--I've quickly discovered that "hot button" topics may generate a bunch of comments, but a certain percentage of the commenters have pre-programmed responses to the general topic, and sometimes make no finer distinctions as to the actual "slant" of the piece at hand. Hence a post that was specifically about virulently anti-Semitic cartoons and propaganda in the Arab world became muddied with bogus looking video links, disussions of "Zionism is not Anti-semitism," anti- American ranting, and various and sundry apologias and subterfuges. But there were some good points and information presented even with these--so I'm not "complaining" exactly either.

Meanwhile many wonderful posts get left by the wayside. I've found this to be the case for me too--less controversial posts can see much fewer or even no comments.

I'll check out the posts you mentioned. I did my own take of sorts on the nuke situation. I think a lot of people are in complete denial about the peril the world is in, and they don't want to be reminded of it.

In any case, the link to the nukish post is here in case anyone is interested.

Elvira,

Nice to see that you are finally sounding pissed off. I looked at your post and left a comment (memento?) there on where the dangers lie for the United States, at least as I understand it. But most Americans are too addicted to the boob tube to think intelligently.

Elvira, I have to tell you that your best bet is to come here - you'll be safer here than in America when the shit hits the fan. Even the shithouse rat will be running for cover - and she won't find it.

It's my duty as a Jew to warn you of real danger to you. That warning has to go out to every other Jew reading Blog Critics. I'm deadly serious about this, even if those I warn laugh or think I'm nuts.

That doesn't matter to me. I have to look myself in the mirror in the mornings, and if I'm silent, I won't be able to. If you want, I'll send you a piece about this off-line. If other Jews reading are concerned, I'll send it to them also.

Ruvy, I hope you're wrong. I'm sorry you're only alerting Jews. Not everyone who's not a Jew is your enemy.

And no, you're not a boring writer, you know you aren't. I read your piece, but ... what is there to say after all that? The awful thing is, that almost directly after you posted your article, I started hearing news stories about someone in London reporting that Israel & the US are making plans to attack Iran, etc. All I can think is, 'oh cripes, here's the shit hitting the fan...'

Nancy, please do not feel offended. The issue is not that everyone who is not Jewish is an enemy. The issue is that this country, Israel, is home for us. As bad as things will get, they will be better for Jews in the homeland.

And thanks for the kind words, Nancy. Shoulda put that first.

Ruvy:
If you have any info that's e-mailable, I'd very much like to peruse it, though I doubt I'll budge from NYC. And even if not, I'd enjoy hearing from you. My e-mail address is listed on my blog. I can't access yours due to limitatioins on my e-mail software.

Nancy:
Thanks so much for the thoughtful comments. I live in the most multicultural city in the world (or so I like to think) and most of the time just view people as people, and throughtly enjoy the diversity. It's just that when issues of anti-Semitism are broached, many folks just don't want to admit it's out there--or sometimes don't really give much of a shit if it is. And that's how evil regimes gain power: when we're--to paraphrase John Lennon-- busy making other plans.

Antisemitism is as rancid as any other unreasoning 'hate' of a group for no reason except they're different, be they Jews, Muslims, Chinese, or gays. Or even fundie Christians. All fundie Christians aren't obnoxious, either, as my neighbors (who are f.c.s) demonstrate amply by being lovely people who live their faith.

What kills me is the outrageousness of some of these anti-Jewish statements, like that thing about Jews using the blood of kids to celebrate some ceremony or other. Anyone who'd give credence to that has to be either so illiterate & ignorant they still use their front legs occasionally, or they're moronic, or they're too gullible to live. It's as stupid as people claiming the muslims want to take over the world. Maybe SOME muslims want to take over the world, but I doubt most do. Pat Robertson wants to take over the world; Dubya and Cheney want to take over the world; but I don't think most of the rest of us are that interested in running other people's lives for them. Well, actually I lie: Bill Gates might also want to take over the world.

This will be a long one, I apologize, but please read the whole thing.
The excerpt below is from a Danish politician, and, I assume, a Moslem, named Naser Khader. Unfortuneately Mr. Khader requires 24 hr protection from Danish police for voicing these opinions.

The ten commandments of Democracy

1. We must all separate politics and religion, and we must never place religion above the laws of democracy.

2. We must all respect that all people have equal rights regardless of sex, ethnicity, sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

3. No person must ever incite to hatred, and we must never allow hatred to enter our hearts.

4. No person must ever use or encourage violence - no matter how frustrated or wronged we feel, or how just our cause.

5. We must all make use of dialogue - always.

6. We must all show respect for the freedom of expression, also of those with whom we disagree the most.

7. No person can claim for themselves or assign to others a place apart, neither as superior persons, as inferior persons or as eternal victims.

8. We must all treat other people's national and religious symbols as we wish them to treat ours - flag-burning and graffiti on churches, mosques and synagogues are insults that hinder dialogue and increase the repression of the other party.

9. We must all mind our manners in public. Public space is not a stage on which to vent one's aggressions or to spread fear and hate, but should be a forum for visions and arguments, where the best must win support.

10. We must all stand up for our opponent if he or she is subjected to spiteful treatment.


The commandments were first voiced in a speech by Naser Khader in 2002.

If we appease the phony 'moderate Muslims', who want to take away our rights 'without violence', the non-Islamist dictatorships win, and we're screwed, and Khander and the Moslems he speaks for are screwed.

If we fail to see there are instigators in our own midsts, and we marginalize Naser Khander, and make Muslims like him appease us, then Hamas/Hezbollah/Salafists win, and we're screwed, and Khander and the Muslims he speaks for are screwed.

If we help Khander and treat him, and Muslims like him, AS EQUALS, and don't lump him in with the defectives because he's a Muslim, it will take a long time, but maybe, just maybe, this situation will improve.

Dave:
Maybe the invasion of Iraq was the best way to help the Khander's of the Muslim world. Then again, maybe it wasn't. Either way, if we decide the extremists have the ear of the Muslim world right now, and that's that, then for sure the war in Iraq was a waste.

Ruvy:
I like you, man, I have since you started posting here. But please read the part about no one being able to claim the mantle of eternal victimhood. Read it over and over till it really sinks in.

Nancy & Elvira:
I sort of assume you'd be in agreement with what Khander is saying. Look at how quickly voices like his on all sides have been silenced in this cartoon 'debate', and notice who screams loudest to drown them out. The Muslims do have more and more prominent examples, but it's not like we're short of instigators and provacatuers over here either.

Everyone who was for the war in Iraq 'because it's the only way to deal with Muslims' or against the war in Iraq 'because the Muslim culture can't handle freedom':
Bullshit.

ss,

I'm not positing the position of the eternal victim. In fact, generally, I feel the opposite. We Jews have to move beyond victimhood. When I talk of a world that wants us dead, I'm reflecting the Tana"kh - particularly the Books of Zecharia, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Joel and last but not least Jeremiah.

In short, these books posit that the world will come up against Jerusalem, even Judah would. Jeruslaem would be like a stone on everyone and armies would invade and gather in the Valley of G-d's Judgment (Emek Yehoshafat).

I happen to live just a few hundred meters from there.

I see these warnings developing in the headlines. Syria has threatened to use its missiles to attack us. These missiles likely have tips with poison gas - the stuff that Saddam Hussein sent out of the country six weeks before the Americans attacked.

Persia calls for our erasure from the map and has the missiles to attack us. Security analysts posit that two atomic bombs would be all it would take to destroy this country. There's more, but it's late and I'm tired and have a heavy day in front of me tomorrow.

To summarize:

G-d's Judgment is coming, and it ain't gonna be fun - not for us or for anyone else. And time's almost up for the world as we know it.

G-d's Judgment is coming, and it ain't gonna be fun - not for us or for anyone else. And time's almost up for the world as we know it.

It doesn't have to be that way. We Americans don't have to sit around doing nothing preemptive, patiently waiting for our country to be suitcase-nuked, one city after another, until we're economically devastated, and half of us dead or dying of blast injuries and radiation poisoning - and the other half slowly starving to death in a nationwide equivalent of the Katrina aftermath multiplied a thousand fold.

Those nations who can make that scenario a reality, and who would like very much for us to allow them to do so, have clearly marked themselves with big, unmistakable red target X's, and I say it's time to make their physical surroundings and population levels appropriate to the their 7th Century ideals and mentalities.

Ruvy:
Alright. I forget sometimes that we have a radically different view of how the world works.
If you really can see the future in those ancient texts, I personally hope your seeing a mirage at the moment and your off be at least a few thousand years.

Ruvy mi Amigo. Glad to know your safe. Your comments speak to my heart. America is a boob tube culture for certain. Twenty 9/11's and America is watching Jerry Springer. Elvira my love. Thought you retired. Ruvy is right. I desire to move to the City of David. Im not a Jew. Im not a Christian. Im a follower of JESHUA. For you muhammad rahim. Your time is limited. Iran you Persian pigs. America the liberal (lack of ball's) will let Israel do the dirty work. Ruvy you are a soldier. Maybe we will meet someday. Elvira, go fishing and sing your song.

Just two notes.

I just glanced at the article about the caricatures and it didn't seem to be about the Muslim world so much as the Arab Muslim world.

I didn't see any reference to Chinese Muslims or Indonesian Muslims.

Second, regarding the Japanese attacking America first. Americans enforced unequal treaties along with other Western nations. The western nations had different rules for their imperialism as opposed to Asian imperialism. America cut off Japan's oil. You can never tell what will happen when you cut off the oil/gas of an industrial nation.

Why did the US open up Japan? Imperialism?

Isreal exists because of European intervention and there isn't exactly freedom of religion there. Most of the surrounding countries, if not all, were colonized by European or Western powers.

When I looked at the Web site, I had to wonder that status of each newspaper that it used as an example. That wasn't clearly explained and this is fault methodology.

A grizzled face that needs a shave blinks tiredly at the screen, shaking wis head in disagreement. Yawnnnn!!!!

ss, Richard,

It's morning in J-lem. The weather men here, like weather men do world wide, are hyping their big news: "Jerusalem bracing for snow!" I'll have to get the Hebrew broadcast for details. I'm supposed to go on a trip to a small village in the mountains not too far from the Jordan to investigate some police problem... We'll see. In the mean time I'll try to explain this concept to you guys. Then I have a whole series of errands to do.

Normative Judaism posits a six thousand year cycle, and this is year 5766 in that cycle. This is the period of time that there is supposed to be the "yetzer hará," the evil inclination. At the end of this cycle, the "yetzer hará" is destroyed. That is what the messiah does, and why there is peace, prosperity etc. in the world. People with no evil inclinations don't do evil.

Now that is 233½ years away, and I shouldn't even be worrying about it, right? But always, there is a fly in the ointment. There is a "medresh" an explanatory story, that says that because the slavery in Egypt lasted 190 years instead of the predicted 400, and there was a 210 year "discount," so to speak, in the early part of the cycle, so correspondingly there will be a 210 year "discount" on the end side of the cycle. That suddenly brings us to the year 5790, which is 23½ years away. This isn't how I was taught bookkeeping, but I didn't write the medresh.

According to our scholars, this is the projected date of the "rising of the dead."

Just a second, while I get my coffee...

The rising of the dead is supposed to occur after the messiah has done his other tasks, like doing in those who curse Jacob and seeing to it that a Temple has been built (or descends from the sky, depending on which rabbi you follow - an argument I won't waste bandwidth on here).

In other words, the hell that is supposed to precede the coming of the messiah will be all done and over with. The wars, the earthquakes, the disasters, the plagues, the whole megilla - finished and done with. All this has to occur within 23½ years.

Then there is this disturbing line in the Zohar - the redemption will occur in the year 66. This is the year 5766.

Bilaam, that evil man with the open eye, prophesied that a fleet of ships from a great distance would attack Assyria - and its other shore. Not now, but from afar, he saw it. That was 3,300 years ago - definitely from afar. How would you characterize the American fleet in ther Gulf? The other shore of Assyria is Persia. Who is allegedly planning a missile strike on Persia? In the prophetic books it says that Damascus will be a heap. If the Syrians do attack us, as they just threatened last week to do with their missiles, Damascus definitely will be a heap.

I may be off by a few years. If the medresh was wrong, maybe 210 years. But that's all.

And Richard - attempts to screw around with G-d's prophecies usually boomerang in your face. Rabbi Michael Weissmandl, a true hero of the Jewish, people tried to do just that in Slovakia 62 years ago. He failed, and suffered terribly all of his life for his failure. He did the right thing! He tried to save thousands of Jews from the hands of the Nazis. But he wasn't meant to succeed.

Also, do understand. The evil to be repaid is not just on the Arabs, who are merely tools of evil who will be reconciled to their cousins in the end. It is also on the American government and particularly the Europeans, who bear far greater guilt and have far more blood on their hands.

Well, it's time for that shave and time to do errands!

Later!

A somewhat awakened Ruvy prepares for another fascinating day in the "neighborhood".

Ruvy, so...I'm confused: does this mean it's all starting now? Or in 23 years?

Interestingly, the Mayan calendar ends in 2012, and if I remember correctly, according to the Fatima secrets, isn't this supposed to be the last pope before the antichrist?

I think it means that Ruvy has more than just coffeee in that cup.

Dave

Ruvy: attempts to screw around with G-d's prophecies usually boomerang in your face.

Well, we shall try very hard not to frustrate that "fleet-of-ships-attacking-the-other-Assyrian-shore" prophecy.

So that I can pass this along to the Defense Department, does this mean that we need to launch our bombing runs from carrier decks, or would the Nautilus, Triton, and Sea Wolf qualify as "ships"?

I knew this would get a few comments, so we'll take them, one by one, the most ridiculous first.

Dave says: I think it means that Ruvy has more than just coffeee in that cup.

As a matter of fact, I did - milk and brown sugar.

Richard says: So that I can pass this along to the Defense Department, does this mean that we need to launch our bombing runs from carrier decks, or would the Nautilus, Triton, and Sea Wolf qualify as "ships"?

Don't waste you time, unless you know some real in-charges there. Bilaam's prophecy meant that ships from many nations shall come from afar. Forces either from the ships or from the nations sending the ships will attack. I guess the further you get from the Hebrew bible, the harder it is to understand prophecy...

Nancy, you are the one making the most sense. First of all, if I understand all this correctly, the End of Days, which is what my explanation is all, about began in 1991, when a fleet from many nations attacked "Assyria" from afar. So it has all begun already. If the Jewish sources I referred to above, the Midrash and the Zohar, are right, it will be over in 23½ years.

Finally - you note correctly that the Mayan calendar ends in 2012, I think in October, but I'm not sure. Prophetic wisdom is not distributed just to us Jews. You're seeing a convergence of sorts here. The Mayans predict an end to their 'Long Cycle' in 2012. The Shia expect their version of the messiah, the Mahdi, to arrive shortly. The Iranian president is acting accordingly. Christian millenarianism would have brught some major change in 2000 - but who knows? Since Jesus was a "nice Jewish boy," maybe it'll be set for his bar mitzva plus 2000. And Benedict - who is most assuredly no blessing - is allegedly the next to the last pope.

Forces either from the ships or from the nations sending the ships will attack.

We're tired of screwing around. Expect the "force" emanating from the "ships" (subs) to be something other than young American bodies this time.

Touche, Rudy. What about Nostradamus?

Uh, that's Ruvy. I've been injesting some herbal supplements and fruit of the vine since all this talk of the Apocalypse has me very agitated.

Shhhh...don't tell my 80-something nice Jewish aunts. Oy, a shanda!

Elvira asks:

What about Nostradamus?

Nu, what about him? I've seen his quatrains taken apart a dozen ways from Sunday. The guy made a couple of good shots - Hister instead of Hitler, Napoleon... The rest is all up for grabs and it's all in midieval French. Sacre bleu, I have enough trouble with modern French, mon cherie.

Well, Ruvy, when I saw that Nostradamus movie with Orson Welles back in the 80s--especially the scene with the guy in the turban obliterating New York--it did give me pause.

Anyway, thought I'd throw him in the mix. Pourquoi pas?

If you're going to toss seers into the mix, there was a fellow who lived in Scotland or northern England who foretold events in his county with astounding accuracy. Thing was, his vision was very local, kind of like someone who could tell you what would happen in Flatbush next year, but didn't have a clue about Coney Island. Also I forgot his name (shame shame).

Ruvy, I'd like to know what's going to happen in Flatbush next year. My prediction: real estate prices will go up (lol).

PS: I had to share this terrifically written editorial concerning Muslim outrage with whomever might be interested.

Elvira,

I went to the blog you recommended and left a memento there.

Ruvy:
That was a great and enlightening comment--wish you'd cut and paste it here just for good measure.

Thanks to everyone for the most recent comments. I've been contemplating responding to some with questions and such, but I keep asking myself, do I want to quibble here? Though I have issue with a few things, I think the larger picture is being portrayed. But I may change my mind later.

Elvira,

If you look up my comments to Blog Critics, you'll see I have been singing this song about the Wahhabi like a broken record - and insisting repeatedly that there is no such thing as an Islamo-fascist - and constantly saying that the terrorist enemyhas an address. I should bang my head against the wall.

"Mr. Insensitive" (David Brown) has posted another article whinig about Islamo-fascism and confusing the issues concerning Islam.

I ran into a very interesting article and an even more interesting comment on it in my e-mail box today. The article, by Victor Davis Hanson, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute asks, in the wake of all these problems with rioting over cartoons, "What Will Europe Do?"

The article seemed innocuous enough. The comment that came with it is what I'd like you folks to consider. It's from Aryeh Zelasko, a fellow who lives in Israel. A thought I had never really considered...

"Whatever Europe will do it will be too little and too late. They are a dead culture and have no children. Unless they are willing to actively revive religion as the central point of European culture, they will never generate the kind of fervor to begin repopulating Europe and creating a cultural identity.

Atheists are inherently cowards and will do anything to preserve their lives. That is, after all, their only value, staying alive. Only someone who truly believes that there is more to existence than this world and its fleeting physical gratifications can make the sacrifices to raise a family, defend their culture and if necessary offer their life for G-D and country. The Arabs have that, the Europeans do not."

In two paragraphs, Mr. Zelasko captured the essence of the crisis gripping Israel today - the chasm between believers in G-d and those who reject Him. In this country, those who reject Him control the government, the army, nearly all of the media, and most of the money. That leaves the rest of us with little but our faith - and the knowledge that what we do will last and that what the non-believers do won't.

oh, fuck... that comment from ruvy's fellow israeli is foolish and will only lead to religious warfare. "defending [your] culture" doesn't have to include self-sacrifice. culture is a moving, vibrant thing, constantly changing (and struggling) to suit all that live in it. even israeli culture changes. even eskimo culture changes. denying this change is the only thing that will kill a culture. european culture is not dead, obviously. the influx of arab influence into europe will cause some growing pains. for the culture of europe (not european culture, but the culture of europe) to survive, native europeans and arab immigrants both need to work together to make sure that immigrants are properly absorbed, adding their culture to the culture that already existed.

what your buddy is saying here is, "in the coming religious war, the arabs will win because the europeans don't have their god backing them up." whatever. just avoid the fucking religious war. europe need not be another middle east.

Well put, zing.
The trend each player needs to address to avoid drifting into the religious war (IMO):

The Europeans need to quit using 'multiculturalism' as a nice progressive sounding mask for their own xenophobia. The ghettos just make all their worst fears about Muslims come true.
The Muslims need to quit feeding their own anti-semitism/antiWest sentiment every time they feel they're treated unfairly. The groups in the Muslim world who benifit most from that just make
thier own worst fears about how they're viewed/treated by the West come true.
America needs to quit using its unprecedented power in the world as a toy for the arm chair generals back home. The (false) credibilty and unending line of recruits this provides guys like Osama just makes our worst fears come true.
The Israelis need to give up their own sense of divine entitlement. The sympathy this generates for the Palestinians lets them get away with way to much they shouldn't, and makes the Israelis worst fears come true

The Israelis have a legitimate gripe when it comes to every government in the world seeing what Israel needs to do but not looking in the mirror and holding up their own end.

Zing, I'm working on the assumption that you are an American. When was the last time Americans burned down foreign buildings, locked up foreigners, etc. over a perceived insult like a cartoon?

If I had been the Danish premier, I'd have pulled out my embassies and ambassadors from any Arab country that even mouthed a threat, cancelled any aid programs to these countries, kicked out the Syrian, Pakistani and Lebanese diplomats, after subjecting them to beatings from my own thugs in the Danish police, frozen Syrian and Lebanese assets in Denmark and expelled ALL Arabs and their families in Danish jails after confiscating their passports and denying them further entry to Denmark.

The bureaucrats in Brussels may have bitched, but I'd be the most popular Danish premier in history. The left wing press would bitch and I'd just smile. Fascism for fascists would be the response. And most of the Danes would eat it up.

That is the kind of guts I imagine Aryeh might have been talking about (though I can't talk for him)...

One has to be willing to fight if someone attacks you. The Danish government was unwilling to take offensive action to clarify to Arab regimes that this behavior (riots, attacks, etc.) would not be tolerated, and that there would be stiff consequences for it.

The reason is that they think like atheists. If you are not willing to defend your own honor, you will be stepped on - again and again.

No offense Ruvy, but you all have won every war you've fought, the Mossad and Shin Bet are the envy of the world intel community and what do you have to show for it?
4.5 million Palestinians who won't move and vote for the more violent of the two terrorist groups that dominate their politics.
It's made Israel the living proof that everything America's going to spend the next fifty years trying turns out to be just as ineffective as peace at any price.
If 'give peace a chance' appeasement is ineffective and 'give total war a chance' is just as ineffective you can keep the cycle going forever or you can try something else.
Or you can believe it's ok when the worst finally happens because it was god's will anyway.

Ruvy:

The comment you left on the post I referenced seemed to clarify certain things for me in a nutshell. Wish you'd repeat it here or let me paste it in?

Again, thanks to everyone for the great comments.

Elvira, here is ther comment I left on the other blog.

Ruvy in Jerusalem said...
Muttawa beat me to the punch. The source of most of this garbage is the hijacking of Islam by the Wahhabi sect of Arabia.

Some American businessmen (including Prescott Bush, Dubya's grampa) helped one of the Wahhabi chieftains attain power in Arabia, a fellow named ibn Saud.

The Bush family has been nothing more than headwaiters for the Saud family ever since.

The Wahhabis are nothing more than camel drivers with a vicious distortion of Isalm for a religion and an ambition to rule the world.

They are behind the Moslem Brotherhood, Al Qaeda and the Taliban, along with all the madrassas world wide that teach only hatred of the non-Moslem. They are a cancer within Islam that, unless checked and destroyed themselves, will destroy Islam entirely.

Now to serious business.

ss;

It is one thing to win a military victory; it is quite another to consolidate it.

Let's look at the Six Day War as an example. In fact it is the basic "dugmá" (framework) for you to understand why we in Israel are in the shit-hole we are.

In early June 1967, the Israeli army sat on the shores of the Suez, the shores of the Jordan, in el Quneitra in the Heights of Golan. Our flag flew on the Temple Mount.

Not only that, the Egyptian airforce was non-existent, its tank forces were obliterated, the Syrians were in disarray, but most important, the Arabs in the territory liberated from Jordan were at the bridges of the Jordan ready to flee.

Moshe Dayan, the Chief of Staff, made two mistakes that have cost us thousands of lives, endless grief and billions of shekels.

First, he allowed the Arabs to to return to their homes, or more precisely, he prevented them from fleeing by blowing up ther bridges on the Jordan.

Second, he handed the keys to the Temple Mount to the Arabs.

Refusing to do either - and annexing the territory liberated from Jordan and Syria immediately - would have consolidated the victory. Everybody would have bitched and moaned and screamed - they hate it when a Jew wins and makes sure that he keeps the spoils - but the issue would have been resolved.

Conslolidating a victory means clearing the potential enemy from YOUR soil. If you can't (or refuse to) do that, you have not won. Period.

So, Moshe Dayan pissed away the victory we won nearly forty years ago in an attempt to look magnanimous.

Screw magnanimity!! See what it has gotten us?

Now look over the events of the last forty years with an eye to an alternative history that would not include Arab control of any part of the Land of Israel, and a synagogue on the Temple Mount.

Would a war have broken out in 1973