In the name of freedom of press can you do whatever you want. In the name of freedom of press can you draw child porno cartoon or can you draw Mr. george bush is fucking the respected Jesus Chriest? should you do that? We should not polarize the community according to religion. We should not find the differences in religion rather find the similarity in religion. In Islam, muslim have to respect jesus and the bible (in quran, God says I sent jesus as your previous messanger). In bible, once jesus told that after me there will be another messanger of God and you will follow him. Who is more pious that will be decided by God (after death), not by us.

Neither side of this debate has a monopoly on virtue. To depict a bomb in the turban of Osama Bin Laden is making a political statement about a group that actually advocates violence. Placing that bomb in the turban of the prophet Muhammad suggests that all Muslims are Osamas waiting to pounce. That said, death threats, harassment and violence are simply unacceptable. Addressing Muslim concerns about discrimination in Europe and Australia becomes difficult when a simple cartoon can spark such extreme intolerance among Muslims.

Extreme Timing: Freedom and extremism in media

article with images

With these kinds of deeds like cartoons What kind of message Europeon countries wants to give the Muslim World??? That Europeon People are Litrate and figting the battle with Muslim World in Educated Manners. dear if they think so they are all wrong because all these Democracies all these Independance of press humanity and Media are the gifts of Islam given to this whole world. So you will see very soon the answer and reaction of this media war very soon.

This article in the Times raises interesting points on the issue

Cynapse:

I think your comment speaks volumes about the real gap that exists, and that needs to be crossed, respectfully, on both/all sides.

I think media should not be punished for this because they have the freedom to express. What's going on when media folks are held captive and beheaded in Iraq? Nothin. So, the world should understand that and this is not offensive.

When a Muslim newspaper prints cartoons mocking Christians or Jews or Hindus or atheists, people in the EU and the US and Israel and India do not go berserk and burn down buildings, issue death threats, kidnap innocent people, or recall their ambassadors.

The current global chaos over these cartoons is entirely the fault of the "offended" Muslims who are presently rampaging through streets all over the world and demanding blood...

RJ Elliot wrote "When a Muslim newspaper prints cartoons mocking Christians or Jews or Hindus or atheists, people in the EU and the US and Israel and India do not go berserk and burn down buildings, issue death threats, kidnap innocent people, or recall their ambassadors."

they instead bomb whole countries without counting the dead, while looking for the mysterious "al-qaeda" instead on false pretences. and bomb al-jazeera, the media channel offices, for reporting on it.
You dont know what a riot is in india.


RJ Elliot wrote:
The current global chaos over these cartoons is entirely the fault of the "offended" Muslims who are presently rampaging through streets all over the world and demanding blood...

Wrong. It is entirely the fault of people, who spread malicious hate, without even knowing that it was their ignorance that caused the offence in the first place. they are not the first. they learn.

Several threads are dealing with this subject. I have never seen so many Muslim bloggers before. They never speak up when terrorists strike. Did they all just buy computers this week? Never heard from them after the London or Spain bombings. What B.S.

I appreciate the fact that Muslims are so outspoken about this issue. It let's us all know just what sort of folks we are dealing with...

i think it is really stupid that people are complaining about this, there are christian comic strips all over that depict jesus and god in all sorts of ways. what is wrong with doing it about the muslim faith? its just another reason for them to belive they are being "persicuted" and kick back over nothing.

Please see my cartoon representing my beliefs about this issue.

I am so sick of hearing about muslims. Denmark should print some more cartoons so we can get all the radical badass muslims out in the street protesting and then drop a couple hundred bunker busters on them.

JP in 2003 was going to publish some drawings of jesus, but the desided not to coz some christians would fell bad! where was the freedom of speech then??
and an store had some shoes on slag that had jesus pichter on...they was removed next morning as well! Danish PR had been getting serious reports when the drawing was released but 3 mounths he did´t take any action! they only intend to take it serious when there boycoted! i´ll say good...u decerve it!

Danish ppl r respectless.........i think only 1% r religious! wat he fuck do they know!
stupid dans!

Quite a tennis match!

Idiots 0
Morons 0

Yes, Christians get outraged, but boycotting is legal and non-violent (i.e. peaceful).

Moreover, the hypocrisy is glaring because the Muslim world shows no sensitivity to Christians or Jews in either their cartoons or their actions.

Muslims print hateful anti-Jewish, anti-American cartoons all the time and I have never heard a single apology. They also burn our flag, which I find highly offensive.

With regard to the Muslims: practice what you preach. Stand against the hatred and bigotry flung from the pulpits of your mosques. The Qu'ran preaches tolerance and compassion toward the People of the Book, i.e. Jews and Christians. SHOW IT.

With regard to the political cartoonists: your behavior via your cartoons is revolting. While there is no excuse for the violence done by those in the Muslim world intent on stirring up trouble - what DID you expect? Do you show Jesus Christ in such a hateful revolting manner because of what HIS followers do - in His name? No. You do not. Have ANY of your read the Qu'ran and are familiar with the life of the Prophet and His Family? What they suffered to bring real civilization to millions of savage people - people who used to bury their daughters ALIVE in the sands of the desert?

Muhammad nor Christ, nor Moses, nor Krishna, nor Buddha are RESPSONSIBLE for the actions of Their followers. Let's get that clear. Let us assign the blame SQUARELY where it belongs so often: the priests, preachers, mullas, "holy men" who are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THEY and THEY ALONE know God's will...

Im muslim. And well, the cartoon obviously touched a very sensitive nerve.

That said,i think the reaction of my fellow muslims to be.........extreme.

But it's hard to practice what you preach, when what we preach is always being attacked.

What about the many islamic demonstrations against terrorism?

Every mosque i have been to almost always runs seminars against terrorism.

In Juma(friday prayer) there are always sermons that are anti-terrorism.



So why are these cartoons so full of malice?

And lets face it, arabian news networks are not the most fair news stations in the protrayal of alot of things.

Hell, MUSLIMS dont take many arabian/muslim news soarces seriosly.

Mohammed married a 6-year-old and deflowered her when she was 9. Imagine what would have happened if a cartoon had referred to these acts by the 'perfect Muslim.'

just get a life...all this religous mess is uncalled for.. just another excuse for the trouble makers in the muslin community to harm their own people, and they wonder why the rest of the world looks down on muslims, its not right but when your people behead, and kill inocent people what to u expect the world to think

Adeel, it's good that your mosque preaches peace.
So you are not the problem. But you must admit, it's not just a few bad apples spoiling Islam's image; it's more like a hundred million bad apples.

Dear There,

I want to clarify that what most terrorists (in the name of Islam) is doing is not considered part of the Islam ideology.
What alqaeda and others terrorist groups is doing is a kind of a radical politics not an Islam. And prophet Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) never considered terrorism when calling for Islam. And Muslims around east-south Asia (more than 500 millions) embarrassed Islam with no war but just because they see something peaceful and merciful in it.
So please respects others and don't make fun of there believes (Muslims, Jewish, Christians, Buddhist,...). Be Tolerant.

if all of you people says that talks about free speech ,

WHY DONT ANY NEWSPAPER TALKS ABOUT SIMETISM ??!!

you dont DARE to talk about anything that will make jewish people angry

ok , what about the HULOCOST ?

and then you say ( F*cking FREE SPEECH )

i never seen a muslim newspaper making fun of other
religion , maybe some "death to israel " or
"death to america " but the newspapers never insult someone else
belief by making some cartoon of their prophet or deity . and miguel dont just write something that
u just heard or read ont the web , u have a brain right? .

Everyone is reacting how the media wants them to. By hurling abuse at each other. What everyone needs to do is stop and realise that there are more important things in this world than a silly made up cartoon by an ignortant person. Remember all the war in the world and all the homeless people. DON'T forget all the sick starving and dieing children in the world. Our anger shouldn't be about religion everyone has there own beliefs. We should be angry at the goverments in the world who are doing nothing to stop all the pain, torture and suffering. This is 2006 not 1806. There should not still be people starving in the world.

Miguel
The prophet married her because he needed to create a female leader for muslim woman. He also wanted someone to chronical his life.

He consumated the marriage after MENSTRATION, which at that time signified adult-hood.
Many christians and jews at that time defined adulthood the same way.

People, the conversation has degenerated once again - leading towards extremism and violence on both sides.

Does anyone have any constructive thoughts, especially those who advocated rioting, burning buildings, etc, or those who suggested cluster bombing, or those who think freedom of expression is the god that knows no bounds - not even when it is clearly leading to hurt and violence.

need to rise above 'blaming the victim' on both sides. why ruin the value of tolerance so thoroughly that coexistence becomes difficult.

what if someone specific is benefiting from this by generating violent public opinion?

[Link]: Extreme Timing: Freedom and extremism in media

i think all this should of never started in the first place the only person to blame is the editer who drew those pics no need to attack anyones religion it just makes a big mess just like this 1 did. oh by the way i live in australia so those people of all religions here we get along real well.but theirs allways 1 idiot that comes and makes a mess

cow tse tung wondered:

Western media "promoting Bin Laden's agenda of extremism"?

The power of nightmares documentary [bbc] in 3 parts - it is long but worth watching on the internet! also, cd available on amazon.

BBC link [menu on right]
Part I: Baby It's Cold Outside
Part II: The Phantom Victory
Part III: The Shadows in the Cave

[Link]: or if you prefer WMV format

best

"oh by the way i live in australia so those people of all religions here we get along real well."

um, Tony--so those riots in Sydney in December were what, exactly? Some brief little good-natured move-along-nothing-to-see-here flurry of activity?

Christians are regularly depicted in MANY ways via editorial cartoons. Some people complain about that, but they sure don't go about rioting in the streets!

The extremes to which some of the Muslim community has gone should be a wake up call to those who are willing to cave in to all their demands. Sorry, but bullying cities and citizens for the opinion of a newspaper or an artist is like napalming an entire neighborhood because one house has cockroaches.

Gordon - Gotta love the new name, man!

about images i don`t have any comments , but is anyone listen before about muslim insult christians or jewish ? i don`t think so about what happened in new york at 11 sep.. all muslims resfus that and there were muslims dead their , and about what happened in spain or in london , all muslims resfus violent and terrors , , but what i`ve now to say is "islam is right and the most pure religion so they attack it "cause they are afraid . yea afraid cause they know they are wrong, they love money joy not prepare themsleves for death.

Shame on Denemark.
thats all I can say.

to all terrorists please let us good guys know who you are by leaving a threatening blog message here:_____________________________________ .......

Let me start by saying, Phil u are [Deleted]

What is Freedom of expresson? is is the right to express your opinion without fear.

The cartoons that were printed are bordering on incitment of hatred, if i was a dumbass i would look at that bomb on the leader of islam and think that all muslims are terrorists and maybe even hate them. Those editors are hiding behind this right to insult muslims.

There is a line that cannot be crosses and they strolled past it.

They werent even funny

If I said you had no sense of humor but what I said wasn't actually funny is that really a fair criticism or am I just picking a fight?


If this is about freedom of expression, how about the newspapers print cartoons offensive to other religions?

Though I am disgraced by this event, I am also ashamed by the reaction of muslims. Isam is not about killing and kidnapping. When something offensice happens, point it out peacefully. Being extreme does not help anything. We just received a bad reputation from the world.

This nonsense about Muhammad having sex with a 6 yr old girl is a common misconception and a grave lie flying around the net...
First of all having premaritual sex is not allowed in Islam. Secondly you cannot marry a girl till she is old enough to bear children. Thirdly a girl has the right to choose or refuse the proposer...the parent cannot force her decision.
At age 6 the girl was called by her parents and marriage proposal was made my them to Muhammed but no marriage took place. Several years later (when he was old enough to bear children) she was called again and she accepted.
This was a norm at that time all over the world including the Christians and the Jews.
For detailed information about this story...please go to www.islamalways.com

Can we all stop and start to fight the alien???

First of all, thanks for handling this touchy subject with your usual decorum, Eric.

That said, the whole issue boils down to "respect" for others' beliefs and feelings. I am a fervent believer in the freedom of speech, but I would have a problem with any newspaper that allowed a pro-Nazi or pro-KKK cartoon to be published. This goes beyond free speech toward racism and I don't think that does the public any good.

Perhaps it seems hypocritical for me to say I believe in freedom of speech but not for these types of things. Yes, cartoons ridiculing Jesus and Catholics have been in plenty of places, but that doesn't make it right.

While the furor and outrage over these cartoons is understandable, the violence that has followed is not. In fact, by embarking on a course of violence these fanatics are making the cartoonist seem right (even though we know it's only a small number of people).

wow, I am very happy to see this kind of response - I agree no one is spotless in this. I think all religions deserve respect for the beliefs of their adhereents, but when that respect is perceived to have been violated perhaps rioting in the streets and threats of violence are not the ideal course of action.

there are some really encouraging signs, though: many clerics have urged calm, Hamas protecting a Christian church in Palestinian territory.

Among the largest issues at play here: Europe is going to have to come to terms with its burgeoning Islamic underclass, and vice versa.

My friend in Denmark told me they are putting the american flag with the denmark flag on the floor outside of the mosque's so people entering and leaving walk all over it as a sign of disrespect. This is bull shit what if we put there koran on the floor of a public washroom so people can walk all over that, how would they feel. Idiots

with all the trouble that's already goin on in the world. people can get upset over a few cartoon's and it's always religon that cause's the biggest stink.
it would be without religon maybe then we can get along.

"I am so sick of hearing about muslims. Denmark should print some more cartoons so we can get all the radical badass muslims out in the street protesting and then drop a couple hundred bunker busters on them."

And your comments don't call for a bomb up your ass?
The reason you hear about so many Muslim terrorists is because that's all they show on American television. Is Bush not a terrorist? Why is he in Iraq again? Killing innocent children and our young men and women from the armed forces isn't terrorism?

I am married to a muslim and since converted from baptist to Islam. I think its unfortunate about the cartoons and I do think it is very disrespectful, but the burning of buildings and hate crimes against the danish isn't going to change things. This is why the world has so many problems, lack of respect for each other. We all have different views and beliefs. Respect and tolerance for each other is the only thing that can cure all of the hate in the world.

For those that are blaming Muslims, start looking at yourselves. Your comments are no better than the acts of the terrorists, who, might I add, are not Muslim if they are killing innocent people.

Is Islam so worried it cant be criticized or have fun poked at it ?

Other religeons coe with it quite well

Shows how insecure these people are

I dont mind any religeon, but DONT shove it down my throat

Now come on, how can these terrorists really beleive that they are going to get 21 virgins when they are dead (has anyone comeback and told them it will happen ?)

can anyone show a religeon that hasnt f**ked up somewhere in the past ?

Living is the only practical way of keeping meat fresh, when you are dead thats it, end of story

If I remember correctly, the bible and the
(Q)Koran were both written years after the actual event, if so, anyone who has played 'chinese whispers' will know that they are both a load of bollocks

"Is Islam so worried it cant be criticized or have fun poked at it ?"

Muslims take their religion very seriously. They live for God and the Prophet. Depictions of the Prophet are not allowed in Islam and the way he was depicted was intolerable.
Poking fun at any religion is not right. Everyone has their own views, like I said before, poking fun and disrespecting a religion is not acceptable. I am not just speaking about the recent cartoons, which were cruel. Do you think its funny to put a bomb on the head of Jesus Christ?
If people had a little bit more respect for each other and accepted difference, most of the problems going on in this world would be non existent.

I believe the cartoons were pointed at specific behaviors contained within the greater religion rather than the religion itself - why is this "intolerable"?

If Mohammad is that good? Why do they have to use violence to confront the cartoon images? Doesn't Qur'an include a verse that might be more forceful than terrorism? We can bear intellectual arguements but not them going around like crazy destroying cars and burning buildings. This is not Islam and these are not muslims. I know quite well this religion and I know that it has much more valuable principles than most of the muslims do exhibit.

Whenever you hear a muslim talking for Isalm, they use the word "bomb" or "kill" somewhere in their passage. GIVEN ALL THIS, WHY CANT ALL THE MUSLIMS GO BACK TO THIER OWN ORIGINIS AND FOLLOW ISLAM THE WAY THEY WANT TO? IF you are in Europe or US, Expect all this. thats the bottomline. Dont bullshit sitting in other countries and bullshitting that own country. go back to pakistan or arabia and have fun there.

"Poking fun at any religion is not right. Everyone has their own views, like I said before, poking fun and disrespecting a religion is not acceptable."

On the contrary. Most religions have such a sanctimonious attitude that they NEED to have fun poked at them. Just like anybody or any institution that gets too self-important.

I think suggesting they asimilate makes more sense than telling them to "go home."

A number of Arab newspapers re-printed a series of cartoons yesterday which has angered moderate black's world wide. The cartoons depict various black leaders and sportsmen in various derogatory situations, calling each one nigger.

One cartoon showed OJ Simpson slashing a woman's throat with the caption "Just doing what niggers do". Another of Martin Luther King getting oral sex, captioned, "The nigger Rev gets a hummer". In all, 12 cartoons were printed each containing the word nigger with typical caricatures of blacks with thick lips, huge nostrils and generally apelike.

These and other cartoons angered World leaders calling them insensitive and inflammatory to blacks everywhere. Reactions from Arab newspapers were muted, stating, "We are just taking advantage of our secular press. If blacks don't like it they don't have to buy our papers."

Reactions from blacks were predictable, thousands rioted in Detroit, burning Mosques and looting Arab shops declaring 'no justice, no peace'. In downtown LA, Jesse Jackson called for a boycott of all things Arab until the newspapers in question apologized.

Asked how this compared to the depiction of the Prophet in the Danish newspapers, a Whitehouse spokesman said: "Look, when we offend Arabs its freedom of speech, when they offend us we bomb the crap out of them"

interesting analogy, but in reality such a thing would simply confirm what the rest of the world already thinks about the Arab press, and as such there would be complaints but no one would really give a shit.

I wrote up my take on this issue, from a media perspective.
I'd be curious to read your response.

Religion has a way of getting people all excited, even in this forum I see people having a hard time keeping the tone civil. It is regretable, for it is at the core of problem. Freedom of speach is a pillar of western civilization and can not be open to discussion (pun intented ;-)

My personal feeling is that since all groupings on this earth have different beliefs about what is acceptable we would limit free expression too much if we were to adhere by all the rules of all these people. Since all people are created equal we can not follow the rules of some (just because they are very loud) and not others. Thus freedom of speech must be absolute.

Should jyllandsposten have posted the cartoons?
The question is irelevant, since they have the right to do so.

Does muslims have the right to be offended?
Yes, they do. But they should engage in dialog not burn down embassies and shout murder in the streets.

Dont they just prove the point made in the cartoon depicting muhammed with a bomb?!

Greetings from denmark

Please all muslims in a non muslim country go and live in a muslim country and leave the rest of the world in peace. I'm sure that if the rest of the world gives all of you arms, you will kill each other and free us all from a cancer. On the other hand maybe nature will kill us all and then the world will finally be a better place for the animals to live and thrive, oh I forgot the benefit to the plantlive. Or God, Budda, Allah or whoever you believe in will send a giant comet and poof we don't need an atom bomb anymore ( not even iran).

You know from what i hear 9/11 was a setup by bush administrative. here is the link.

I think Bush hates islam thats why he goes after islamic countries that can't defend themselves. why doesn't he bomb saudi, oh wait becuz he can't take on them cuz he's afraid they'll kick his ass.

Is this what you hear from the voices in your head?

Dave

" I think Bush hates islam thats why he goes after islamic countries that can't defend themselves. "

Not true. Bush invaded Iraq and freed 25million muslims from the sectarian rule of Saddam. If it had been my choice I would have left them oppressed under Saddam.

this person must hear voices in the head. Pres bush hates muslims,absurd!the idea that we leave Saudia Arabia alone because we fear their military, is also absurd. the U.S is without doubt the most powerful nation in the world.if you dont think so invade us

Basically..... who really cares. Get over it and move on. A cartoon won't destroy islam. Stop being so thin skinned!

I've linked to the actual cartoons in my post on this subject. Go take a look at them. The one with Mohammed with a bomb in his turban is hardly funny, but it's also not terribly offensive, and the other one is actually quite funny and certainly not offensive in any way. It depicts Mohammed in heaven and not doing anything that could be construed as disrespectful. The fact is that just depicting Mohammed is seen as offensive by these extremists.

Dave

Passion For Freedom, Or Freedom Of Passion?

Mohammed's sublime passion stands in sharp contrast to the base passions on display

EO wrote (a while back):

I think suggesting they asimilate makes more sense than telling them to "go home."

I repectfully disagree. The European nations are not built up as lands of opportunity as are America, Canada and Australia. There is no statue in Paris saying "Bienvenue Immigrantes" (pardon my French) as there is in New York Harbor.

If the Europeans are experiencing a labor shortage, they should hop in bed and produce more laborers the traditional way instead of importing labor and depressing wages. If they don't want to, then they are paying the well deserved price for their craven short-sightedness.

Many Moslems have no intent of assimilating, and many Europeans do not want them to. Those who do want to in Europe face barriers far higher than those in America. So, what you suggest is a multi-generational solution that many Europeans and immigrants do not want.

In the final analysis, it is better for many (albeit not all) of the Moslems to "go home," bringing with them the knowledge of how to run a society. This knowledge will be a subversive influence undermining the repressive regimes presently in power who benefit from keeping poverty and class differences.

With time, it could allow Islam to experience a sort of a reformation that would change Arab countries into dynamos of leadership.

hahaha mayb the papers published the cartoons as a free speech test ..mayb the protesters act violently
because they wanna test the european tolerance against violent mob??? LOL

/end stupid joke

look m not attacking anyone here and i dont intend 2 do so. but 1st of all f any 1 looks carefully @ the islam he will find that its a peacefull religion ppl dont u c the islamic hi is "peace be upon you"how could such a religion b violent 2nd of all i want 2 reply 2 mr free world when some 1 puts some flag on ground its ok i dont mind put mine on ground walk on it by ur shoes its ur opinion i dont care but dont compare it 2 the holy quran its like comparing the flag 2 the bible "comaprison cant b done "3rd of all mr.del you said that the only way 2 keep meat fresh is 2 keep it alive and death is the end of story hmmm then tell me who created you the first time its god right so he is able 2 bring you back "logic" isnt it like i made a robot its broken oh i can fix it bring it back 2 work "m the one who made it"so wat m saying here is that god created us n the 1st place so he can bring us back again . according 2 wat muslims do all over the world its a shame but u tell me "can any newspaper talk abt anythin' concernin' jwesh ""no, it cant "& f they did the newspaper may apologize immediately or even may b closed ""all we sick as muslims is apologize ""just apologize is it that hard "

This is why I move that all organized religion is bad.

Yes, the comics were funny. But there is some irony to the situation: The comics portray what we see on the media, the ultra-violent portion of the islamic religion. And as all things of this nature, the muslims played into the hands of the Danes by erupting in such fervor, thereby propogating these caricatures. I had a muslim student in my class that was quite out-spoken on the subject and proposed writing correspondence to the Danish papers over this 'atrocity.' I thanked her for the idea, but declined. This is covered by free speech, although many people don't like it. They, like many, prefer to hide behind free speech when it is in their favour, but cast it down when an 'offensive'work comes there way. But they have find their way to deal with it, and, certainly, violence is not the answer.

If you want something to compare these caricatures to, try contrasting them against the slieu, if not hoards, of anti-catholic comics that came out just as all the allegations of sodomy in the church came out. Where was our outrage? Did we, in our not-so-obvious furor, go cavorting about setting fire to catholic cathedrals? Did we recall our cardinals?

The peaceful muslim communities need to realize that the non-muslim societies are being fed perverted images of their religion, solely-based on the 'terrorist' attitude of the fanatics. But the problem doesn't lie with that population, it lies with our own media: They have to compete for ratings, and higher ratings means more money. So what do they do to get higher ratings? Publish bloodier, gorier stories that slake mankind's natural bloodlust. (If you doubt me, why did the gladiatorial games of the Roman era draw so many people in? I'll stand corrected if someone can give me a valid, credible, and legitimate reason) The media requires a somewhat sensational pizzazz to give them a boost with viewers.

But not all media sources are bad. You just have to know which ones to believe and which ones to take cum grano salis.

This is just craziness. Sure some mosks or whatever the hell they call their "church" is give some face time to the outside world about being anit terorists. That is kind of like the nazis saying that hey you know you realy shouldnt kill jews. The islamist faccists have learned how to play the p.c. game. They say what the media wants to hear while planning to kill us behind our backs. By the way there is a reason they call them Islamic faccists they have more in common with the nazis than they will ever admit. I dont understand how somepeople in this country cant see that we are at war! These people are the enemy and should be treated as such. Now I understand why the internment camps were set up during ww2. We should reinstitute them and intern all [edited] that are here in the U.S. This is a war of freedom vs. religious intolarance and the intolerance isnt from the "religious right". They dont like us they want to kill us so we should kill them before they have the chance this will only be over when the survivors in the middle east are glowing in the dark.

The level of personal attacks that get tolerated on these threads is stunning

No offence, but there's really no way to police threads without having to go through and read every comment which takes an infinite amount of time considering the time it takes to read it vs. the amount of comments posted

I know, to rephrase, the level of personal attacks that gets generated on these threads is stunning.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Yes, it is amazing that mankind can be so callous to each other. But in the end, it means nothing.

LOL, Nidhogg. Good name choice.

Dave

First, they came for the cartoons, and I said nothing.

And I LIVED TO TELL ABOUT IT.

hmmm ... no offence to Danish or anyone else including Muslims

but as I see and believe , I believe Israel have it's receipt in this cocking

and they cock it real good this time.

To tell you the truth, I feel sad for ANY religion that has been mocked especially by the media. I am a believer of free speech, but to what extent does free speech hold? Think about that....

Will there be a time when anyone wants to say anything they want and get away with it? Yes it's funny on the surface but the implications that underlie the "free speech/expression" could bring more harm then good. Look at the big picture for heaven sake! Do you want to live in a world where people can mock you or what you believe in, belittle your family or your friends? Or burn the bible/koran in your face and get away with it? What about mocking your birth country? What if one day some Asian dude comes out to the media and say nasty stuffs about the Europeans that you'd disagree with totally?

Please! Free speech has its limits. Issues that are sensitive should be dealt with in a subtle way. I'm not addressing to the westerners only but to the world, as humans. Is it creative to deal with an issue with mocking ways? Is it more creative to deal with the issue in a more politically/societally correct way? For god sakes that's the reason why Universities around the world offer political science for a degree.

In my honest opinion, I condemn the terrorist attacks done by some of the Muslims. To say that Islam is not the only one with terrorists (compared with KKKs and what nots) is just one bull crap and another reason for them to create violence. But in true nature, I must agree that these actions are undertaken by minorities. These people are mislead to think that "jihad" is to kill. Islam by itself a very humane way of life. One have to understand and know more about a religion to comment.

I'm not very sure about this but I must say that the media is gaining a lot from this she-bang. And it's has really been blown over proportion: 1st by them knowing that it will cause chaos and still going ahead publishing the pictures. 2nd by making lots of fuss and creating much of an issue about it. 3rd Gaining all the credits and your penny worth of self-induced-troubled news which to me is ridiculous. I say its folly.

I'm not all out for full media censorship. But a certain degree of publishing ethics should be imposed.

"Personal attacks are not allowed. Please read our comment policy"..muahhahaha!!...yeah right..and here we are talking bout freedom of speech..if all of u out there are so free to talk..how bout start swearing without the words getting censored..owh we cant do that now can we..y? coz somebody will get offended...but if we constraint ourselves then we arent really free to speak...owh y do we care bout somebody getting offended?...freedom of speech my foot..

Dave- Thanks. Finally someone caught on.

Firdooze- Point taken, but when do we draw the line on what can and cannot be printed? And once the government takes those steps towards publishing ethics, will they continue to choke the free-press until we have something like that of China?

Wanderer- As far as I'm concerned, I'm glad the forbid some words from being posted. Those words should not be used in civilized discourse.

hey wanderer...fuck that..we can use any words we like...

but i digress...

Aleinthos sez...
*Let us assign the blame SQUARELY where it belongs so often: the priests, preachers, mullas, "holy men" who are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THEY and THEY ALONE know God's will...*

Quoted for Truth...

nuff said?

Excelsior!

Amen? So much b/s comes from those who interpret the word of the divinely inspired books. Do yourself a favor, read the Bible/Quran/book of your chosen religion, and interpret it yourself.

I remember Muslims dancing and celebrating in the streets after 9/11. I was told not to be offended, it's not the majority of Muslims that feel that way. This is about cartoon right? All this violence over a cartoon? Uneducated; unsanitary people. Makes me sick. Developed nations should stay out of the Middle East and let the fuckers kill themselves.

wanderer: freedom of speech my foot.

In addition to Freedom of Speech, there is one other Western concept that Islam will never be able to understand, and that is Property Rights, and more specifically the relationship between these two foundational principles.

You are the King on your own property. The owners of a certain property known as blogcritics.org can set whatever rules they damn well please about what kind of speech is going to be allowed. That doesn't have anything to do with what other people are allowed to say on their own property, or on other people's property. Thus it does not nullify the general First Amendment constitutional protections of Free Speech.

So you Muslims have the same rights westerners have to be able to say whatever you want to say on your own properties (your websites, your radio stations, your newspapers, etc.) And if you exercise that right in a civilized manner - not calling for non-Mulsims to be murdered for exercising their Free Speech rights in ways that might offend you - then you can hope to be successful by rational persuasion at influencing us infidels to voluntarily stop being disrespectful towards your religion and Prophet (pbuh).

We will even go so far as to tolerate you criticizing the very Freedom of Speech that allows you to speak your mind. But be careful. For as long as you keep on trying to get our governments to step in and FORCIBLY restrain us from being able to exercise our Free Speech right to criticize and poke fun at you (especially while hypocritically expecting to enjoy the freedom to criticize US), you will get ablsolutely nowhere. In fact you will only alienate yourselves even futher, and provoke even more negative atitudes, because you will be perceived (correctly) as enemies of the very most basic foundations of cherished Western values.

i ask the danish news paper if she really likes
freedom , to attack the JEWS or draw a picture to jesus like thise if it really is a free newspaper , i believe they are just cowards
and can never do , they are just descreminators
rather than any thing else..................

well well, i have now seen the pictures that were published regarding the muslim christ, they are not worse than what the muslim press has previously printed about jesus, budha and krishna, so why don't we tit for tat a little, and torch a few muslim embassys and a few of their religous houses in our christian, hindi and budhist countries. the muslims have a cancer in their midst that they should cut out themselves, called "religous stupidity as well as terrorist leaning", if they don't do it themselves and try to live with the rest of the world, then the rest of the world will eventually be the surgeon and that will not be as pretty as when they do it themselves. educating their masses of poor would be a good start instead of keeping them ignorant, so the can be easily manipulated to become terrorists.

They have a 3% tolerance of christians. They kill the rest of the infidels.

There are no Margarets, and no Matthiews in islamic countries.

why doesn't he bomb saudi, oh wait becuz he can't take on them cuz he's afraid they'll kick his ass.

He's afraid they'll withdraw the millions they invested in his oil company in Texas.

All this violence over a cartoon? Uneducated; unsanitary people. Makes me sick.

If you knew anything about TRUE Muslims, you would know that they are quite sanitary. Try researching before posting.

I spoke to my husband about the riots and burning of buildings over these cartoons. He is MUSLIM and says these are the people that get crazy in the religion. Just like any religion you have extremists.

How did you feel on 9/11? Pissed off and out for revenge. Our military has been there for how long blowing shit up? Killing their women and children? I'd be burning flags too.

Gee, I didn't realize Muslims allowed "foxiness" in their women. Can you actually display that on the street, out in public? Is there a special burkah that is not totally opaque, or do you do it all just with your eyes?

What would Mohammed do if someone made fun of him?

Nidhogg: The extent of censorship has to be dealt with individual countries. Yes its a fine line and its difficult to see the line. But of course not that extreme like China. And I'm not talking about really information supression but ceiving sensitive expressions or express it in a way that would be less likely to cause any uproar.

Allowed? You do realize women and men are equal, right? Oh, and most likely the Muslims you are referring to that don't allow "foxiness" in their women are the ones from the oppressed Muslim Countries, Iraq, Iran......

How about the Americans who oppress their women? That beat their women? That rape your mothers, sisters, daughters? Do you not see that as terrorism? Look at the violence and discrimmination we face in our own country we are by no means a good example and definetly not in the place to judge.

For that last question, if it was directed by me, Mohommed isn't the one you should be worried about, its God/Allah. Oh, and for you uneducated, God and Allah are the same.

jack: he won't do anything. during the period when he was spreading the religion, he went through worse. but he did not do anything in retaliation.

I know its such a contrast in Muslim world now. I think its inivitable that there would be people who would create trouble. And like many muslims would agree, very few people can depict the way Mohammad go about in his way of life.

roxyfoxy: Seriously, I think Islam is the few religion that recognize woman as equal to man. Not entirely but to a certain extent that they can actually be placed almost at the same status as man. But the problem is that the middle easterners have been since eons ago before Islam been harsh to woman. Hard habits are hard to break? But if you look at woman in Islamic world like in Malaysia. Singapore, they receive equal treatment from men.

where can you find a religion that gives the power of the path to heaven to a mother? Or the right to have the husbands will to his wife and not entirely to his sons? The fact that woman are allowed to practice the religion as much as the men could says alot on how the religion is for quality between genders.

firdooze: Malaysia and Singapore are considered moderate because they are far from the core of Islam source land - Saudi Arabia. The closer a country to Saudi Arabia, the crazier it is. In other word, Malaysia and Singapore are still mixed with secular values. The crazyiness of Islam ideology is progressively hijacking the culture of other countries.

As for status of woman in Islam, I like your view towards the status of woman, but is it the view of your Islam?

What religion says "a woman is inferior than a man"?

What religion says "the majority of people is woman."?

What religion allows a man to marry 4 wives and has sex with numerous sex slaves?

What religion is crazy enough to ask a raped woman for 4 witnesses to justify her being raped otherwise she is verdicted committing adultery and stoned to death?

Did someone really just write that Islam is a religion that recognizes women as equal to men?

Holy shit, what a load of camel dung.

While there are certainly lots of enlightened Muslims who may consider women equal to men, or at least pretend, most of the free world doesn't even accept that women are equal to men, so that's a pretty damn funny comment.

Yes, wearing a burka and being thrown in jail for being raped is my idea of equal.

Somehow, I don't remember the Bible saying that men and women were equal and I think the Bible was used to justify the subjugation of women and non-whites in America so I'd actually like to see quotes and the translation listed when discussing Islam.

Although Buddha didn't say that men and women were equal, cultural practices and attitudes in Japan and China made this assertion. I see similar problems in evaluating Islam and Christianity.

There were, after all, European Christian nations that lagged behind Islamic countries in giving women the vote.

In actuality, I only know of one religion that writes men and women are equal, comparing them to two wings of a bird.

The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings . . . become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary

"here can you find a religion that gives the power of the path to heaven to a mother?"

In the Quran it says a mother has one foot inside of heaven. I will find the quote and post it here.

"hat religion allows a man to marry 4 wives and has sex with numerous sex slaves?"

It is true, an islamic man can have 4 wives, provided the first wife agrees to this and the man can provide every wive with the same things.

"he closer a country to Saudi Arabia, the crazier it is. "
Turkey is close to Saudi Arabia, it is probably the freest of the Islamic Countries.

Yes, "that woman" has one foot inside heaven because her husband has a machete poised to smack her down should she step out of line.

Enough with this already, it's a falsehood, even if scripture says it, cultural practice rules the day and gender equality and the Islamic faith are at odds with one another.

Maybe you are kinda stereotyping and you don't know the full practices of Islam. I don't blame you because what people hear and see usually comes from a second hand source (media, heresay, etc) rather than from the Islamic teachers..

Yes a man can marry 4 wives. But for him to marry four wives is a real burden for that man, period. blah blah blah) And that if only the 1st wive agree upon. But I must agree that to a certain extent, these practices might have been misused by men, who "pretends" to interpret the sources correctly and refrain from the MUST which is the obligations that man have to face before they get more than 1 wife. Thus, if really you wanna follow the rules that's laid down for marrying more than 1, it's kinda not feasable.

For a woman wearing a burkah, you are seriously looking at it at a westernized way. look at it in a more conservertive way. It cannot be argued that men are generally lusty. So if you looked at it in that point of view, it is actually protecting the woman rather than troubling them.

Dawn: I must agree with you. At the end of the day, its the culture and the nature of the race and not the religion. The middle easterners have been known to be like that way before Islam or even Christianity.

Now then, do you understand why the Torah, Bible and the Koran are passed to people from middle east decent?

PT, I was not under the impression that Denmark is oppressing anyone

The thing that intrigues me is that a CARTOON caused this ruckus! I'm glad art is so powerful, despite the results. Maybe more folks will got to art school instead of the army; the pen is mightier than the sword.

are the teheran newspapers and the iranian governement to afraid to print cartoons of jesus, budha and also their own idol, and instead use the holocost as an excuse for more violence, as they would then have the whole world against them, are all muslims stupid, or just happy to kill, even their own all the time
to all non muslims: boycott all wares, including oil from the muslim countries all over the world, as mentioned in a prior message tit for tat

hello kareem

shame on all muslims, that is all i have to say

i wonder if the muslim prophet would agree with the way his followers now interpet his teachings, or would he let the medianians catch him, so the world would be a more peaceful place now

"For a woman wearing a burkah, you are seriously looking at it at a westernized way. look at it in a more conservertive way. It cannot be argued that men are generally lusty. So if you looked at it in that point of view, it is actually protecting the woman rather than troubling them."

This is a very good point, but I just want to point out that women are not forced to wear them. It is an option in the Quran. The men and leaders of the oppressed Muslim countries have forced their women to wear them. But, as we all know, the West is more civilized and a lot further along with technology. These people are still living during the old times.

"are the teheran newspapers and the iranian governement to afraid to print cartoons of jesus, budha and also their own idol, and instead use the holocost as an excuse for more violence, as they would then have the whole world against them, are all muslims stupid, or just happy to kill, even their own all the time"

Its so unfortunate that you fail to educate yourself with the religion before posting. It is against islamic law to depict any of the prophets, Jesus Christ included. Look at the Christian churches, they all have some depiction of Jesus, but how do they know what he looks like? And if you haven't educated yourself, you will know that Jesus was from the Middle East, but why is he depicted as a white man with light brown hair? Would it have anything to do with the prejudice that our country was built on against all people who have a different skin tone? Yes, america is now declared "free", but its people like you that still class human beings in a color coded box.

"i wonder if the muslim prophet would agree with the way his followers now interpet his teachings, or would he let the medianians catch him, so the world would be a more peaceful place now"

The muslims who are acting out this way are wrong, we all know that. They are taking the words in the Quran and twisting them around. Do you see Muslims in the US or Canada acting this way? No, because they wanted to get away from the barbaric lands they came from.

Must we not forget that America was a land of barbaric laws and inequality. Did we all forget about slavery? Segregation which only ended in the 60's? Or how about the fact that women couldn't even vote until the 20's? Yes, that may have been a while ago, but it did happen, and women and african americans (moreso than women) are still put in a category and suffer prejudice every day.

I'll say it again, the world is the way it is because of people like you who can't accept difference.

The muslims who are acting out this way are wrong, we all know that.

No. They are the ones who follow what the Koran clearly teaches.

They are taking the words in the Quran and twisting them around.

No. It is you so-called "moderate" Muslims who have "twisted" the Koran's words. "Moderate" is just what the word implies. You have "moderated" (i.e. modified) the plain teachings of the Koran to be palatable to what you call the "more civilized West."

Example:

Surah 9:5--"The Repentance"

Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.

The so-called "extremists" don't try and twist these words around and weasel out from the obvious meaning that it boils down to:

Kill non-muslims.

The moderates, on the other hand will try and explain it away, saying that it only refers to a "spiritual" jihad - that it's only talking about "slaying" one's own inner idolatrous tendencies.

It's pretty obvious who is doing the linguistic twisting, and squirming here. I'm sorry but even Tammy Faye Baker couldn't put enough lipstick on this ideological pig to make it attractive.

All ye artists! Cartoonists! Caricaturists! Lampooners! Rise up! Now's the time to be heard!! Attentions are high and Senses of Humor are at all-time low! draw like the wind!!!

re nr. 9 mohammed: dear mohammed, cutting your own lifeline with a boycott, there are already many that boycott wares from muslim countries including oil, keep it up and you will have more hungry and poor people, unless you can kill all your rich and take their goods, but somehow i feel they wont like that too much

re Nr. 10 michael: arent you a bit radical, the fallout would kill the rest of us in the world, which i personally wouldn't mind so much as long as it is fast and painless, can you guarantee that, no i worry a bit about the animals and flora, but i just heard about all the 100 and more black holes in our part of the universe, maybe the the gods of all religions are merciful and send one closer

re Nr. 15 bangarti: the 3% of danish goods that were exported to the islamic world will hardly slow down the danish economy, or hurt it

now for my part: so many people have written so much rubbish, including myself that i shall sign off and let others write more bad language

to bad that humans just hate hate hate, animals kill and destroy to live, humans kill and destroy out of pleasure

"No. It is you so-called "moderate" Muslims who have "twisted" the Koran's words."

First off, I am a converted muslim who left christianity for the faith. I know both sides of the coin. For that quote you posted, please, quote what was before and after it. I am pretty sure you just went to a webpage, copy and posted what you found. Did you read this by any chance? If you did you would know what it was referring to.


Have you read the bible lately?

Genesis 3
To the woman he said: 'I shall give you intense pain in childbearing,you will give birth to your children in pain. Your yearning will be for
your husband, and he will dominate you.'

Genesis 19
They had not gone to bed when the house was surrounded by the townspeople, the men of Sodom both young and old, all the people without exception. Calling out to Lot they said, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Send them out to us so that we can have intercourse with them.'Lot came out to them at the door and, having shut the door behind him,said,'Please, brothers, do not be wicked. Look, I have two daughters who are virgins. I am ready to send them out to you, for you to treat as you please, but do nothing to these men since they are now under the protection of my roof.'

Deuteronomy 12
You must completely destroy all the places where the nations you dispossess have served their gods, on high mountains, on hills, under any spreading tree;you must tear down their altars, smash their sacred stones, burn their sacred poles, hack to bits the statues of their gods and obliterate their name from that place.

Is the Bible really any different than the Quran? No where in the bible does it say to respect women and the mothers of your children.

Although I don't agree with the last persons views, I do agree with signing off. You people are rediculous.

"With these kinds of deeds like cartoons What kind of message Europeon countries wants to give the Muslim World???"

Uhhh, maybe that we argue with words, not bombs?

So when is an Islamic Christ going to appear on the scene and "do away" with the old law (namely Islam's equivalent of the Old Testament, the Koran) and usher in the new law of Love?

Never. Because Mohammed foreclosed on that possibility by proclaiming that HE was the final prophet. And if Muslims profess with their mouths so much about honoring Jesus, then why do they not profess it with their hearts by practicing his Beatitudes, even if they don't want to accept that he was the only begotten Son of Allah (Elohim) in the flesh?

please, quote what was before and after it.

So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

I'm an unbeliever. Do you believe that Allah is going to bring disgrace to me and all other non-Muslims?

announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

I disbelieve. As a Muslim convert from Christianity, please tell me what kind of a "painful punishment" you think is appropriate for my crime of not deciding to become a Muslim.

surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)

I accept no duty towards Allah. Do you think Allah does not love me? Which brings us to verse five, which I now quote in it's entirety:

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Clearly it is saying that the only way to escape the edge of Islam's bloody sword is to repent (of disbelief) - that is, become a praying Muslim.

And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

Gosh how kind and merciful of Allah. If you are an idolator (non-believer) who at least waves a white flag, you get a chance to escape being slain. You'll be able to receive instruction from the Koran, and the previous verse makes it clear what you will have to do - repent of your disbelief, and convert to Islam - that's your ticket to "attaining your place of safety."

I will spare you continuing on through the rest of the 129 verses. This is plenty of context for any rational person to draw their own accurate conclusions, and my conclusion is the Mohammed was a brilliant military strategist who wrote the Koran for the purpose of terrorizing his followers with threats of Hellfire into being afraid ever to defect from his authority. This Surah in particular has served as a blueprint for the Islamic conquest, subjugation, and annihilation of one culture after another over the course of the last 1400 years. The subjugation of Canaan by the children of Israel in Joshua's time pales to insignificance by comparison. All they wanted was the land of Israel. Islam dreams of subjugating the Earth.

"I'm an unbeliever. Do you believe that Allah is going to bring disgrace to me and all other non-Muslims? "

Nobody knows who is going to heaven or who is going to hell. All you can do is believe in what you believe, do everything for God, and pray that you will go to a good place. Are you saying that you are a non-believer of God or just Islam? Because in the Quran it states that any religion that believes in one God is a believer.

"Is the Bible really any different than the Quran? No where in the bible does it say to respect women and the mothers of your children."

Ephesians 5:25-30.

What have we learn in this case?

One of the biggest gain, I think in this cricis. That we have learn ours self how much, the musli m people are different from muslim to muslim.

That most of the 1.3 milliard muslim in the world just wish to live in peace and harmoni, and dont see any purpose to cast into destruction and violence for just some cartoons.

And a big part of the muslim people in the world is poor, so the can not really boycut the danish industri.

As for the imam, Abu Hamza al-Masri from England, who was trying to convince all muslim, that it is allowed to kill all non muslim. and he was sentence for 7 years in jail for that.

Imamen`s belongs to a dangerous categori. of extremists, that is only using their religion as a weapon to bring had and destruction.

I still think Muslims are wrong in this case , why u want to replace ink with blood ? , and those drawn wont be OFFSENSIVE and Muslims wont be OFFENDED if its not telling the TRUTH

dear #111
roxyfoxy

I wasn't going to place anymore useless words, but i suppose you forced me.

"i wonder if the muslim prophet would agree with the way his followers now interpet his teachings, or would he let the medianians catch him, so the world would be a more peaceful place now"

The muslims who are acting out this way are wrong, we all know that. They are taking the words in the Quran and twisting them around. Do you see Muslims in the US or Canada acting this way? No, because they wanted to get away from the barbaric lands they came from.

come now don't tell me that all muslims can't read the koran, especially if they bury their beards in the book most of the time. it says kill all non believers, that is me and the rest of the world except the muslims, but we are still more than you, so maybe that is why the moslems that left their groovy countries shut up, given a chance, they would try to convert or kill us all so called nonbelievers. someone here said your prophet was a good general, but did he have to close the door to furtherment of the future (you are all living in the past, when the moslems still enriched the earth with wisdom, but those days are centuries gone)
by the way, i'm not an american and live in a different part of the world. i still feel we have the right to defend ouselves. the scientists are looking for an effective cure for cancer and all the other ills in the world, maybe the'll find one against all misguided religions as well, but then all religions are misguided to keep the masses down. one of your comments here:
"I'll say it again, the world is the way it is because of people like you who can't accept difference."
i can accept differences, just not willing murder in the name of religion or politics

have a good life, as long as your religious compatriots let you live (if you live in a western country, be glad you are wrongly protected by our benign laws)

"So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

I'm an unbeliever. Do you believe that Allah is going to bring disgrace to me and all other non-Muslims?

announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

I disbelieve. As a Muslim convert from Christianity, please tell me what kind of a "painful punishment" you think is appropriate for my crime of not deciding to become a Muslim.

surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)

I accept no duty towards Allah. Do you think Allah does not love me? Which brings us to verse five, which I now quote in it's entirety:

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Clearly it is saying that the only way to escape the edge of Islam's bloody sword is to repent (of disbelief) - that is, become a praying Muslim.

And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. "

Seriously, I guess you either no nuts about this verse or you really don't care (with the intention to tarnish the religion).

My dear friend, this verse has nothing to do with non-believers being slayed because they don't believe or killed just for the sake of killing. Its actually a verse relating to a treaty that was made during the time of Mohammad.

The first sentence shows that God is Almighty and even if you don't believe in God, God will not be frustrated or angered.

You obviously ommitted lots of the 2nd sentence which goes, "If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith."

It doesn't mean that you'll be tortured by humans or Muslim or whoever. The punishment refers to works of God not man. Similar to committing a sin.

And for your weak argument : "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. "

This is the part when God is talking about the Pagans whom the Muslims have made a treaty to. At that time, many of them actually broke the treaty, causing a war. This sentence actually shows how mercifull God is. It shows that even if those Pagans break those treaties, if they repent by doing any of those mentioned above (pray or help the poor), the Muslims must spare them from the war.

"And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know."

What this sentence mean is that if any of those Pagans who broke the trust of Muslims during that war, seek help or shelter, the Muslims must shelter them. And in turn, he might hear the word of God.

And for your information, Islam is not a religion that is imposed on someone. Islam believes that if you don't want to believe than its your own decision because God is Almighty. Islam do not impose their religion onto anyone like how I know some religion tries to.

And one last note; many a times, the meaning of the Quran is lost in translation. That is why, the Koran is preserved through time in Arabic, the language that it was first written and told. (now you know why Islam don't regard the modern day Anglicized Bible as a reputable source for reference in Islam as it went through many translations from the original language, Aramaic) There are many Arabic words that the English counterparts don't provide adequately or not of the same meaning. So if you wanna understand the Koran, you got to learn the language first, then decipher for yourself. You don't need to be a Muslim to read the Koran.

Lastly, it is good to really understand the other religion (myself, I was in a christian school since 4yrs till i was 18) not to belittle or put them down (you have the right to your own believe) but to actually understand the people practicing them and in turn will foster more tolerance towards every other religion. Enough said.

Hounddog, when I said the world is the way it is because of people like you, I was referring to all of the people who put Muslims down because of what other "muslims" do. I put muslims in quotes because anybody who is resorting to violence is not amuslim. Islam is a peaceful religion that does not promote violence.

No baptist, no catholic, no protestant, no muslim, nobody regardless of their faith, believer or not, can say who is going to heaven and who is going to hell or what will happen when we get where we are going. All we can do is believe in what we believe and do our best in life to get where we want to go. If you are a nonbeliever, then that is up to you. But I am not God therefore saying you will be tortured or saved is not my call.

Its unfortunate that so many people are so hateful, including in the Islamic world. The good muslims, or TRUE muslims believe that this violent protesting is wrong and useless. Instead of watching TV and reading the newspapers talking about all of the wrong things about Islam, try going to this website: www.fethullahgulen.com

I posted some new news on all of this here.

dear hounddog: comment #122

please show me in the Quran where Allah instructs muslims to kill all "non-believers". That would be pretty dumb since the Prophet's uncle died in old age of natural causes and he was a "non-believer", and not a single person did any harm to him because of his non-belief!

When you all make statements like that.......it's out of ignorance and mis-interprting the context of what you are reading!

One other thing to remember..... the words of the Quran are Allah's words, not Muhammad's. If any punishment is spoken of.... it's from the hands of God, not any man.

dear firdooze:

i'm glad you spoke about the treaty breakers that repatedly broke treaties with the muslims 1400 years ago that those verses are refering to. These enemies were well known for breaking peace treaties with the muslims and attacking them during times of truce, catching them off guard and slaying men, woman and children! Yeah Islam is a religion of peace... but when you break that peace, it also allows the muslims to fight. And so does all the other religions. So lets not pretend that other religions are peaceful all of the time and Islam is the only violent one. No, each one has peace and violence in it history! like yin and yang. But peace is the ultimate objective of all religions, but man is not yet perfected to choose peace over violence. That's why Jesus prayed for "peace-be-with you" and so did Muhammad.... As-Salaam Alaikum (peace be with you). Both of them died knowing that PEACE was a long way off.

the ban on images of M. is political and originates from the radical Islamist movement that spawned al Qaeda. There are examples of his image throughout Muslim history.

Neither should non-Muslims paint all Muslims as Islamist radicals

Dear Muhammad Rahim,

I'm interested to read your comments, since you are not only Muslim, but also write excellent English so I'm able to understand your points pretty well.

I would say that a major part of the problem is universal: as in Christianity, there is a substantial percentage of believing Muslims who "know" the Qu'ran, but don't really understand it, or misinterpret it. Christian fundamentalists in the US (and abroad, I'm sure) do it with the Bible all the time: they're always pronouncing that "God says this" and "God hates that", when even a cursory familiarity with Christian traditions & biblical teaching shows the exact opposite, so that in fact they end up perverting what they wholeheartedly suppose they're defending.

In the US, these mistaken religious fundamentalists also take a lot of criticism & mockery for it in all the branches of the media, and from all parts of the public as well; witness the storm of scorn & mockery heaped on Pat Robertson recently for his various outrageous comments involving religious statements.

From what I've read & heard, this is the same situation in Muslim parts of the world: fervent believers who are misled by leaders who misinterpret the Qu'ran and Islam, either through ignorance or promoting their own agendas. In either case, the unthinking are being led by the unscrupulous &/or erring.

On top of all this, there's also a major disconnect between Western & Muslim attitudes, in that it would seem that Muslims do not understand that non-Muslims in general expect that anyone and or anything is liable to be subjected to mockery, discourtesy, & disrespect ... and while the target of such mockery may resent it, aside from verbal protests (or at the most extreme, filing a lawsuit against the offenders), it is allowed & (in matters of public persons like leaders, including religious leaders or figures in history like the various popes, or even persons such as Jesus or Mohammad) even encouraged as a means of keeping otherwise near-omnipotent institutions which use these persons as their "authority" in their place, so to speak.

Unlike in the asian or middle-eastern countries, western society doesn't really have a concept of "face", which allows opposition parties to maintain their dignity; in the west, it's always been 'winner take all'. I suspect this is another major factor in the current troubles.

Your thoughts on this? Thanks.

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This sentence actually shows how mercifull God is.

No. It shows that Allah is the asshole of the universe - or it would if he existed. But he doesn't. He was a fictional character in Mohammed's novel, the Koran. So what it shows is that Mohammed and his "religion" of Submission (to HIS ideas) was and continues to be the asshole of this earth. There is no point in this Surah, if not to serve as an inspiration to Mohammed's successors to carry out the conquests, forced conversions, and extinguishment of whole cultures - which is what has happened all the way from Morocco to Maylasia over the last 1400 years.

Arabs and Muslims are a minority in Denmark. How they are treated is questionable.

In recent years, Denmark has been lurching rightward and turning increasingly hostile to Islam and Muslims (who now make up about 4% of the population). It is becoming distressingly commonplace to see headlines about prominent Danish figures openly expressing prejudice against Islam, and mainstream parties are working increasingly closely with hardline nationalist (and, of course, Muslim-baiting) parties that were once rightly viewed as beyond the pale. It's gotten so bad in Denmark--and I'm sorry to say so as someone whose maternal side of the family is there and who has long taken pride in Denmark's once enlightened policies--that a prominent pundit in neighboring Sweden declared Denmark the most xenophobic country in Europe. By all accounts, inter-communal relations in Denmark (which for the most part are Muslim/non-Muslim relations) are becoming worryingly strained and beset with prejudice and misunderstandings. This is the essential political and social backdrop to Jyllands-Posten's attacks on the Prophet, and it missing from the Muslim WakeUp piece and so many other discussions.

"He was a fictional character in Mohammed's novel, the Koran. So what it shows is that Mohammed and his "religion" of Submission (to HIS ideas) was and continues to be the asshole of this earth."


Quoted from Arabic Poets (of most who are non-believers) who were living at the time when the Prophet Mohammad recited it for the first time to all of them: "... there's no poem that we've heard that is so beautiful as your Quran ... it can't be the work of Man, surely the work of God ... "
Arabic poets till today still read the Quran as a source of inspiration for them (including the staunch non-believers). Try listening to one of the simplest