Any insult on Muhammad pbuh is worse than personal insults for Muslims. I wish all Muslims countries do what Saudi Arabia does and teach Denmark a lesson.

Sammur,

The facts in Gaza speak for themselves. The ugly of face of Wahhabi inspired intolerance in Islam is there for anyone who wishes to look. Instead of seeking to live in peace in lands where there is peace, your people seek death, murder, mayhem...

You can't lie your way out of this one with pious words. The rioters in Gaza make the truth all too obvious.

Actually, Islam forbids not only the depiction of Mohammed, but also the depiction, in art, of any human or animal figure. This is because they believe that only Allah can create such things, and for man to try and re-"create" them in drawings or paintings is an insult, not merely to Mohammed, but to Allah himself.

They should be even MORE outraged by the paintings of Rembrandt and the statuary of Michaelangelo, than they are about these cartoons, because those masterpieces, representing the cultural epitome of Western Civilization, are offenses against Allah, which you would think should be regarded as infinitely greater than an offense against Mohammed!

So why are they not calling for Denmark, and other countries with Muslim populations, to close down their museums, and destroy all of these artistic productions that offend Islamic sensibilities?

And for that matter Islam also believes it is wrong for women to be heard speaking in public, and it is considered especially offensive to hear women singing. So while they are at it, perhaps they should be calling for the closing down of all opera houses, along with the destruction of all recordings featuring women's voices.

Really. Why are they being selective here, about which of their beliefs they want to try and impose on the whole rest of the world?

The Danes are learning an important lesson about the high price of having an open and generous immigration poilcy for Muslims:

Groups linked to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah faction issued a statement saying, "We call upon all Danish citizens in [Palestine] to leave immediately." (from the link provided by RJ Elliot)

Perhaps its time for Denmark to "call upon all Muslims in [their country] to leave immediately."

It is a story of respect. Freedom of press is not about insulting the others, it is ridiculs and said that you defend such irresponsible actions.

Freedom of religion is far more important than Freedom of press because religion comes from prophets while press is press. Make fun of taliban, Al-qaeda , Saddam hussain but not our beloved prophet which may hurt our sentiments and our peace of mind. Because just like alot of you we are trying to find spirtuality and a direction in life. By now means we are perfect but dont make matters worse by showing such a vague understanding of a peaceful religion. In case you wanna blame it still than let me tell you muslims have not started a single world war while they are always used as pawns on the world stage. Christians and jews both lived peacefully under our religion in the past as we are asked to by allah. By no means allah wants us to kill anyone let alone an innocent human being, believe me we are not that cool if you can catch the sarcasm.

Interesting that none of the apparent Muslims who wrote comments about this blog answered the question raised about why no outrage over the beheadings and suicide bombings rather than cartoons.

well, we answering your question is like you answering us when we ask about the reason the teenagers in western high schools for committing suicide using guns and only that, but also shooting other teenagers or teachers..! we can't control them and it never happen that we were happy or satisfied with these behaeadings and suicide bombing 'cuz it's in the first place a murder to one's self or others which islam is very restrict about.. we're strongly against it..

and if Denmark has the "freedom of press" then we (not only muslims but all humans) have the "freedom to choice" and we choose to do what you've mentioned above.. it's all about freedom so don't get pissed !

It is very puzzling to ordinary people how faithists, in particular the adherents of the three strains of the "one god" theory, squabble so persistently over which of their credulous creeds is the right one, the one true faith.

All three groups have far too much influence over human society as it is, given that the core belief of all of you is based around a totally unsubstantiated theory, that of the very existence of god.

How odd that you all squabble over who's the most pious, who the most hateful? How interesting that you'll all debate the intoxicating intricate nuances of dogma without ever facing the gaping black hole sucking all the goodness and sanity out of you?

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. A little more humility from the lot of you would be nice though...

Freedom of expression does not mean that one gets absolute right to abuse the other and get away with it.

Freedom of expression means to make a constructive criticism of oneself or other by which the critic is not hurting the other in any manner. This is what ISLAM teaches & this is what is practiced by Moslems worldwide.

But the western methodology of freedom of expression is nothing but sheer blasphemy of religion without ethical & faith boundaries which is totally unacceptable.

So the best way the Moslems worldwide could react was to boycott the Norwegian & Danish produce so that they can feel the pinch of their wrong doings.

For all peoples of the civilised world it is now cristal clear: islam is NOT compatible with western democracy. Islam is a problem, a pain in the ass. Let us get rid of it.

"Freedom of expression does not mean that one gets absolute right to abuse the other and get away with it."

You said it, Mohammed. I couldn't agree more. that's why my blood boils over when I see articles in Egyptian newspapers acusing Jews of blood libel, and all sorts of other things. I mention the Egyptian press only because it comes to mind immediately. Then there are all the speeches from imams calling for our destruction.

Your own religion calls upon you to help us build up this land when we return. Your own religion gives us possession of this land. If I didn't know this, it wouldn't bother me so that children here are taught with money from the UN that my peole have no right to out won land, and in addition, it is martyrdom to kill Jews and die in the process.

Perhaps, you should check out the Wahhabi influence on your own faith and see if that might have anything to do with the cartoons in a Danish paper?

I can understand with the Muslims and Muslim countries outrage over this issue, though not necessarily the actions they've taken.

Richard, I think the point you're making is very interesting. It actually shows the tolerance of Muslims worldwide. They don't say anything against museums and paintings, although they could, but when someone offends the Prophet himself, then they have every right to be offended...

RJ, Islamic countries including the one I live in, repeatedly condemn the suicide bombings that kill civilians....

Islam and Muslims are quite tolerant, it is the fanatical Westerners including media crazies like Jyllands Posten which are the intolerant ones and the proof is in these vicious cartoons it has published. This is an issue of insult and how far can your insults go, it has no connection to free speech or tolerance.

Well , muslims are grateful to west for alot of things specially to countries like Canada who open their doors indiscriminately and promote understanding of cultures and religions. Muslims have always been law abiding citizens and greatly respect alot of western values. As a muslim, I just hope agreement to be found in our conflicts for us to live together peacefully. People like Bryan Adams have taken a great step forward by performing in Pakistan. A crowd of thousands wanted to hug him and were so sad to see him leave. I hope peace finds its way someday. Bryan has played his part while rest of us ponder.

I dare you to question the holocaust, you freedom of speech fanatic!!.. Right a blog and say: yes to the freedom of speech to question it. And have the Danish government come out publicly announce that those who deny it (under the umbrella of freedom of speech) are not breaking any laws.

Do that! But, even then we won't let you insult our Prophet. And besides what is the big fuss about: we boycott you we miss a cheese snack. So back off and protect the freedom of speech for all or we won't eat your cheese..haha :)

the act of danish newspaper is blasphamous to the prophet peace be upon him, and it is an insult to the islamic beliefs, worldwide. Showing prophet Muhammad pbuh in violent images shows ignorance to what he stood for at its best... Had they read his life history, they would have been more understanding to the struggles he went through for raising name of One God, bringing justice to humanity and creating a just society
Before making any statements, please read following:

and this
by Karen Armstrong.

This is not a matter of freedom of expression or intolerance. Rather, its a matter of insult to one's belief (whole 1.3 billion Muslims) and practices with ignorance at its best...

Actually, freedom of expression does mean that you can insult others and their beliefs. Freedom of expression is not polite. It can be messy and ugly and feelings can be hurt and your beliefs can and will be insulted.

In comment #9, Mohammed wrote: "Freedom of expression means to make a constructive criticism of oneself or other by which the critic is not hurting the other in any manner. This is what ISLAM teaches & this is what is practiced by Moslems worldwide."

Sorry, but this is absolutely wrong. I am not muslim, so the teachings of islam are irrelevant to me, particularly when it comes to free speech, a uniquely western concept. As a Christian, I do not believe that Mohammed is God's prophet. He was a man, no different from you or me, who had no special connection to God. If any muslims find that offensive, I say toughen up. That statement is really no different from Muslims and Jews denying the divinity of Jesus Christ. I can handle that, but then again, I enjoy freedom and wish to extend it to others.

Saying that, a boycott, which is at its heart a form of free expression, is an entirely appropriate response to another's free spoeech which you find offensive.

why didn't the Muslim world draw in hugh protest when the Taliban blew up the hugh, ancient, valuable Buddhist statue?
If the Islam world doesn't show respect to the other religion, WHY SHOULD THE WORLD respect theirs?

I think Sean made a good point in #17. Doesn't the Islam world respect the sentiment of Christian when they deny the resurrection of Jesus? Did Mohammed respect the belief of the other people when Mohammed SMASHED the other gods in Kabul?

Mohammed was a sick pedophile who had sexual intercourse with a nine-year old girl named Aisha. This fact can be found in the Koran itself.

If the above factual statement offends some Muslims, tough. What are you gonna do? Boycott me? Or maybe threatening to saw off my head on Aljazeera is more your style...

Muslims don't ask for our respect, they demand our submission. What they can get is a nuke on their heads, and that day is coming near.

You say muslims are intolerating these "goofy cartoons" and making a big deal out of it?

How about the catholics in Italy making a big deal about this goofy ad by Sony and making them pull it?

Plus, doesn't this just fuel hatred in peeople more, if you're an advocate of these drawings you're an advocate of hatred.

Wow RJ Elliot, please stop pulling BS out of your butt. The Prophet (pbuh) was engaged to Aisha when she was 9 but only got married when she was 14 or 14. If you still think that is pedophilic, then I guess you think your ancestors from the middle ages were also pedophiles and I guess you also consider that you come from a line of pedophiles because it was uncommon for a man to marry a woman his own age but it was very common for a man to marry a woman who was 14 or 15 in the middle ages.

Being an advocate of free speech does not make you an advocate of hatred, nor does it make you an advocate of all that is said in the name of free speech. Free speech means tolerating and allowing speech which you may find offensive. Allowing the Nazis to march, or allowing the KKK to have a rally, does not mean you are advocating the positions taken by those groups. Rather it means that you accept that 'bad' things may be said, and it means that you counter the 'bad' speech with free speech of your own, which is what is happening in this thread for the most part.

Parody and humor are esential elements of free speech. When bombs are exploded in the name of Muhammad, a cartoon showing Muhammad with a fuse coming out of his turban is political commentary in the form of humor. I understand that some may not find it humorous, and if they wish to express their displeasure by protesting and boycotting, go for it. Just don't expect free people to silence themselves because your feelings are hurt. And if bombs are exploded and people killed as a result of these cartoons, expect more of the same.

The Muslim reaction to the Danish freedom of expression is understandable. Many muslims dont enjoy freedom of anything, therefore it is conceivable that they would not embrace the expressions of free people as art.
If Conservative Christians responded with violence everytime a liberal chose to offend the law of God, America would make the middle east look like Disneyworld.
As a general rule western values contradict most muslim law. So why do we have so many holier than thou muslims in the West? Have they given up their religion for prosperity?

I haven't seen these cartoons, but how did anyone 'know' the figure in the cartoon was the prophet himself? Was it labeled as such, or was it just a generic 'muslim' male in a robe & turban? And why is everyone boycotting this food company? Did they sponsor the cartoons?

It's all in the interpretation Nancy. It really doesnt matter if the company had anything to do with the cartoons. They are Dutch thats all that matters. Its alright for muslims to boycott a whole nation for one persons cartoon just make sure Americans dont target or boycott muslims in any way for the actions of their followers.

I cannot find a link to them, but if I recall correctly the cartoons were labelled as being Muhammad.

I think the food company is being boycotted simply because it is danish. Guilt by association I guess.

Mohammed contracted the marriage with Aisha when Aisha was only 6. Mohammed then 'consumated' Aisha when Aisha was only 9 and Mohammed was over 50. There are numerous records for proof in Islam document - Al Hadiths (Al Bukahri).

Mohammed also told other people that he dreamt of Aisha many times.

Why would a 50+ old man thirst for sex with a 6 year old girl?

Does this Islam information hate the feelings of the Muslim world?

Why did Mohammed ask his followers to follow his 'sunnah' (deed)? Does it prove the Mohammed was promoting sex education to minor?

Why are Muslims outraged by the cartoon more than the beheadings and suicide bombings? Actually, its a difference on how they react.

For example, in America, when Timothy McVay bombed Oklahoma, did Americans go in the street and mass protest and shout "Down with McVay"? No

But when someone from the Muslim world shouts "Death to America" (such as Ayatullah Khomeini, etc.) Americans get furious and start rioting and protesting. I remember in the 1980's, when "Death to America" was shouted in Iran against America, Americans took to the streets and started beating Iranian-Americans in the streets in revenge.

Its the same thing. Why are you putting fingers at the Muslim-World as if they are any different than how Americans react to different things that insult them?

Americans too get pissed off when their flag is burned, and their country is demonized. The American god is the flag and country, the Muslim god is God, and Muhammad was His Prophet.

To all of you on here bitching about how offensive the cartoons are I have one thing to say to you...........

too fucking bad.......

You guys know what I find offensive?

Muslims terrorists hijacking American planes and flying them into buldings.


Muslims kidnapping reporters and civilians and killing them on videotape.

Muslim governments supporting terrorists.


I know that not every Muslim is a terrorist but the ones who aren't don't exactly condemn the ones who are. So they can go fuck themselves too.


It seems like everywhere Muslims go there's a radical minority of them that have to cause trouble. Wether it's the hate speech being expressed in Britian, the civil unrest and disrespect for traditional culture in France or the terrorists attacks in Spain and America.

I as a westerner am tolerant. You want to practice Islam and worship allah? Fine. Just do it peacefully without conducting terrorism or looking the other way when others conduct terrorism in the name of Islam.

However if you want to fuck with the USA you better believe we're gonna fuck with you back.

Another thing..........


I am so fucking tired of hearing American liberals bitch and moan about Abu Gharib, Guantanamo, and torture. I say if some Al Queda douchebag has even the slightest bit of information that can save American lives we should make him sit in a cell in Gauntanamo while he watches American soldiers wipe thier asses with pages from the Qaran and we torture him until he gives up the information or we kill him trying.

The Saudi is using this event as a test to their influential power on international stage. It's all political. The Muslim should not be entrapped by the Saudi's conspiracy to cause chaos to the world order and mutual understanding of countries.

Hmm...Bing, wow. Every community has it's radical elements, what you should be wondering about is why the media around you is fixating so much on Muslim radicals? And it's a fact that Islamic countries condemn terrorist attacks that kill/injure civilians all the time.

Jack from NOI, I'm not sure why the Taliban did that, but the Buddha would've been pleased. He particularly asked that no idols be used in the name of Buddhism.

Michael, again, wow, that felt pretty racist to me. And I'll bet you'll be among the fallout to those nukes.

I beleive in free speech, and that the cartoonist was exercising his/her. And although i wouldn't have done the same, any muslim country that is doing anything as a reaction to this, is also exercising it's own rights.

Tolerance is over-rated. Tolerance means that you're just bearing with this other person/community/religion. Acceptance is what we need.

Isn't it generally agreed that we needn't all do the exact same thing in order to be succesful in life? In fact we're encouraged to be innovative...then why do we have to 'tolerate' someone else using a different path to the same goal?

Actually, with regard to boycotting the food just because it's 'Dutch', didn't Americans boycott something even dumber: "French" Fries - which weren't even French?! Boycotting American potatoes because of the way they're cooked. Yeah, that's intelligence for ya.

Wow, Jack from NOI

More bullshit to make us muslims look bad

Lets see, getting married to a girl before she has even hit puberty or is mentally ready for sexual relations is illegal in Islam, the prophet taught us this and the quran says this. So you're telling me the prophet broke the rules he himself preached? Let's not mention the fact that Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, asked Muhammed to marry his daughter. The only thing that makes me more sick than your racism is your bullshit head trying to come up with weak insults to undermine our prophet.

Anonymous muslim, so u agree your 50-plus-year-old Mohammed married a 6-year-old Aisha and had sex with her when she was 9?

You also agree to follow the 'sunnah' (deed) of Mohammed?

You will marry a kiddie and have sex with her?

What's the word you describe an old man who wants sex with a kid? No insult. I just want to know the word. I remember it starts with a 'P'. Hm..not 'Prophet'.

Rohan, you missed my point. If the Muslim world doesn't respect the religion of the other, why should the other people respect their religion?

Islam is only part of the problem. Religion SUCKS! I will never follow a path that says killing is O.K. if done for your religion.

some muslims are bad, some christians are bad, some jews are bad. some muslims get insulted, some christians get insulted, some jews get insulted. judge people on an individual basis, not by what they wear or don't wear on their head. shit.

UPDATE

To all of you on here claiming that Islam is no different than any other religion.


Some Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings killing thousands of American civilians.

No christians have done that.

No Jews have done that.

No Buddhists have done that.

Some Muslims attack subways in London.

No christians have done that.

No Jews have done that.

No Buddhists have done that.

Some Muslims blow up trains in spain killing civilians.

No christians have done that.

No Jews have done that.

No Buddhists have done that.

to all of you on here claiming that Islam is no different

I find this whole debate both fascinating and worrying at the same time. Broadly speaking, in the Western world we have access to almost unbounded freedom of speech and association, but how far should we go?

Personally I think that freedom of speech is unlimited so long as it does not preach hatred of other people. In this case, I don't really think it was a hateful cartoon. Insensitive perhaps but as noted by someone else on this board, freedom of speech lets you be rude and as ignorant as you like.

Last year in my country, London was bombed by Islamic extremists. Now, I certainly didn't hear of any violence in the streets or attacks towards Muslims in the immediate aftermath of that attack. I believe that in general, the UK is a tolerant country towards other religions and especially Islam. But my point is that Muslims in the West also need to become far more tolerant towards Western freedoms!

Uncomfortable as it may be for muslims living in the West, you are going to have to get used to this kind of situation. The majority of occidental countries (in fact all of them!) do not have a Muslim majority, so those citizens do not necessarily agree with all of the religious rules and beliefs of Islam.

We in the UK (and I'm guessing the rest of the democratic world) want the right to make fun of who we want! Christain, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist or whatever religion or belief, none should take precedent to that very lucky right that we have; that right to say (or print) what you like.

Great brawl, people - you've demonstrated how low you can get, and believe yourselves too - that you've preserved and delivered these great gems of excresence - here's mine.

Actually they are all pedophiles, they love to slash throats, especially those that don't repeat what they are told to. They love violence, and suicide, even more. They are also perverts, and allow only one expression - come f--- me. Need to know any more? Horror movies and true evil is great isn't it? Especially if you find someone to fit the code, you know what I mean.

the toon is here too

actually there is series ...??

Artistic Expression: why people give a s--- ? because its a matter of 'taste' : they have a right to express their truest feelings about the artists work, (or in case they haven't seen the work then) the subject of the work (even if they overheard about it from their neighborhood training camp)). Great life, Rushdie, I wish I could offend as many people, even if what u wrote was uh nothing special - just east-west-india woven in so people from one of these wouldn't know what the f--- the other two creatures lying in bed were doing!

Goofy Cartoons showing turbans which are actually bombs: i'm sure the sikhs, not so much as the fulani, are just as excited that their true nature is finally being revealed. Its a matter of sticking to your most obvious single identity, in a congealing glob-al sewer that respects only freedom of p-ss--g and s--tt--g. Ahh - modern life! The cartoon does look very South Asian indeed, especially like those orientalist sketches of the natives, em.

Censorship: of the scarf, of speaking one's own language, and the outrage at the lack of censorship of the artist KW - who drew at the insistence of the editor, may or may not have been a rushdie belligerence - but is great publicity for Islam - oh prince of Denmark what have thine eyes seen?

This guy Bing needs to get laid in the worst possible way imaginable. The proverbial foam gathering around the corners of this guy's mouth is even spraying into cyberspace. What a fucking nutjob. His stated "facts" are nothing but regurgitated neocon talking points he heard from watching Fox News or listening to schmuks like Hannity and Rush.

Here's the deal: Islam and Muslims are under attack by the United States/Israel because Islam and Muslims can not and will not submit to the will of the United States/Israel. Nor do Muslims want to live in decadent Western-style capitalism/materialism, so they're hated by the warmaking Oligarchs and Plutocrats who want to exploit their nations and culture.

Secondly, Muslims in Western nations can't be blamed for being there and demanding equal rights. Western nations from Britain, France, Denmark and The Netherlands ARE THE ONES TO BLAME FOR LETTING THE MUSLIMS INTO THEIR COUNTRIES EN MASSE IN THE FIRST PLACE. The MUSLIM IS NOT TO BLAME, IT IS THE WESTERN NATIONS WHO LET THEM IN WHO ARE TO BLAME.

Thirdly, most Americans are woefully ignorant about what Islam teaches. Most Americans are treacherously bigoted towards Muslims.....assigning collective blame for the actions of a very few. It's a sickening disgrace.

Fourth, I don't want Muslims flooding into the West, but I support them 10000% in establishing their own self-determination within their own lands. If they want to live under Sharia, then the West should shut it's mouth and let them be. The Muslim will open his arms to you when you come in peace, but if you come to them with war you will get war. I'm telling you the truth.

God help us all.

Bing, your examples of things muslims have done which no Christians or Jews or Budhists have done, fail miserably because most of those things - except the plane crashing which is just a subset of car bombing but done in the air - have been done by Christians and Jews and even Budhists. Read up on the history of Israel, Ireland and Japan sometime. You'll find all the car bombings, subway bombings, gas attacks building bombings and other acts of terror you care to read about - none of them from Muslims.

Dave

Rohan is the only Muslim on this thread who has had the guts to try and respond to the embarrassing points I raised in post #3. He admits that picturing any human or animal in art is condemned by Islam as a blasphemous affront, not just to Mohammed, but to their god, Allah. He says:

I think the point you're making is very interesting. It actually shows the tolerance of Muslims worldwide. They don't say anything against museums and paintings, although they could, but when someone offends the Prophet himself, then they have every right to be offended...Richard, I think the point you're making is very interesting. It actually shows the tolerance of Muslims worldwide. They don't say anything against museums and paintings, although they could, but when someone offends the Prophet himself, then they have every right to be offended...

With all due respect, this makes no sense at all.

Question: Is Mohammed greater than Allah?

Muslim Answer: No. The Prophet did not create Allah. Allah created Mohammed (pbuh). Allah is so great, in fact, that he can "be in peace" without us having to say "peace be upon Him" every freakin' time we say his name! Therefore Allah is greater than Mohammed (pbuh).

(Are you with me so far?)

Question: Is seeing an affront against Mohammed a greater reason to be outraged than seeing an affront against the very Creator of the Universe?

Muslim answer: Of course not. Being disrepectful to Allah is much more serious than being disrepectful to Mohammed (pbuh), who is merely one of His creations.

Question: OK. So then why are Muslims not infinitely more angry about seeing art produced and put on public display, which Allah has explicitly forbidden - and not just in one little Danish newspaper, but in millions of places all over the world? Why are they only going as far as trying to get the UN to step in and abrogate freedom of expression in the Western World with respect to depictions of Mohammed, and saying nothing about the much more widespread practices about which they should be considerably more outraged? Rather than showing the "tolerance of Muslims worldwide", does this not rather show their cowardice? And if they are so tolerant when it comes to offenses against Allah, why would they not show even greater tolerance for a much less serious offense against Mohammed?

Muslim answer: ???

Dieci anni di passione

In the console wars raging between Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo, taking aim at a competitor not only makes for good gossip and quotes, but also it's expected. No one will blink an eye if Microsoft irks Sony or if Nintendo brushes off Microsoft. But regardless of one's religious preferences, it's probably not a good idea to incense the big man upstairs or the house He built.

An ad campaign from Sony in Italy has done just that. Full-page ads celebrating the PlayStation's 10th anniversary recently ran in the country's newspapers and magazines. They featured a young man smiling sheepishly while wearing a crown of thorns. If that already sounds touchy, it gets worse.

The thorns are contorted into the X's, O's, triangles, and squares--the symbols on the faces of the PlayStation's four main buttons. A phrase at the bottom of the ad reads "Dieci anni di passione," which translates to "Ten years of passion," a possible reference to Mel Gibson's controversial Jesus biopic The Passion of the Christ.

"This time they've gone too far," Antonio Sciortino, editor of the Catholic weekly Famiglia Cristiana (Christian Family), told a local newspaper, according to Reuters. "If this had concerned Islam there would have been a really strong reaction."

Sony has reportedly since apologized and has pulled the advertisement from circulation

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1271.html

Brodies's comments about muslim views on art are mostly false and are written as if they are all united under what brodie has to say. no such thing. There is much diversity of views even about art and iconography. While you might not see pictures of muhammad, like u do of jesus, so that one doesn't get attached to the icon or the messenger (the depiction of the deity is aniconic like yhwh, brahman, allah, or budhhist nothingness) you will find him in paintings such as on this page: Buraq Wikipedia". so there goes your whole Rembrandt argument.

Dante's Freedom of expression

Muslims are attack from Israel and America Tommyd?

Cry me a friggin river.....

It's Muslim terrorists who intentionally seek to kill American and Israeli civilians. When America and Israel defend fight back they don't intentionally target Muslim civilians.

Israel is a tiny nation compared to all the land that Muslims in the middle east inhabit and the muslims still won't leave Israel alone. I don't recall any prominent Israelis publicly stating that any predominately muslim nation should be wiped off the face of the earth. The president of Iran on the other hand, who is muslim and heads a mainly muslim nation has publicly said that Israel should be wiped off the map.

Second Muslims in western antions don't want equal rights they want special rights. In France the government told the muslims there that they would not allow muslim students to wear thier veils in school because it was not part of the culture of France and muslims threatened violence. There are muslims in Britian in America who recieve all the benifits of citizens, some recieving substantial goverment funds and benefits and then they do nothing but bitch about how bad and evil America and Britian are and some of them are terrorists or associate with terrorists.

Third I did not assign blame to all Muslims for what radical Muslims do. I clearly stated that I believe not all Muslims are terrorists so don't put words in my mouth asshole. Also I am ignorant of most of what Islam the religion is about. So what? I'm not muslim. I don't need to know the tenets of Islam. All I need to know is that there is a small group of muslims who want to kill wasterners in the name of islam.

Fourth..... Tommy you implied that I said all Muslims were the same, that they're all terrosists. I did no such thing but you seem to be implying in your posts that all muslims despise the western lifestyle and desire to remain in the middle eats and live under muslim dictatorships. This is bullshit as many muslims have moved to western nations because they sought the western lifestyle. Also many iraqis have said that they are better off now that America has come to iraq.

Don't go using the trite left wing smear tactic of calling me a racists and all that bullshit tommy cause thats what it is... bullshit

I have no problem with any muslim who wants to practice thier religion in a peaceful manner anywhere on this planet but the small group of radical muslims that would use the religion to harm innocent civilians needs to be dealt with. They need to be killed ASAP. If the other muslims don't want to help us they I have no sympathy for them and if you don't like that Tommy well you can go fuck yourself.

I wish you people will stop perpuating the lie that Aisha was marriage when 6 years old. No she was not! In fact she was married more like 18-20, based on rough estimates using key historical events in Islam -- See this webpage for this conculsion was drawn up the author: http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=375

Sure, Danes have free expression. Saudis have their own version of free expression which allows them to boycott products made by racist crackers.

But it's fun to make fun of someone else's religion.

It's fun to have fun.

Boys will be boys.

Saad, knowing your 'P' Mohammed who had sex with a kiddie is painful so you have tried your best to deny it. However, the fact is evidenced by your Islamic source. I'm glad we have FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION to expose the fact.

Here is one of the sources proving Aisha was only 9 when she was 'consumated' by Mohammed.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

There are more:
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310
Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Number Narrated 'Aisha

If the Muslim world doesn't like the above sources, muslims should burn their own books and beat up their imams.

gazelle says:

Brodie's comments about muslim views on art are mostly false ... so there goes your whole Rembrandt argument.

Learn something, gazelle:

(from the USC Compendium of Muslim Texts)

On the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra) it is reported that the Messenger of Allah (saas) said:

And who is more unjust than those who try to create the likeness of My creation?

The most severely punished of people on the Day of Resurrection will be those who try to make the like of Allah's creation.

Every picture maker is in the Fire. A soul will be placed in every picture made by him and it will punish him in the Hell-fire.

I can see that no Muslim here has the courage to give me a straight answer. So I'll just conclude by saying that I hope a movie will be produced about Mohammed similar to the Passion of Christ. It should be called the Poison of Mohammed, depicting what a bloodthirsty pedophile this person was, and what an incredibly malignant blight his religion has been, and continues to be, on this planet.

christianity has been a "malignant blight" on this planet as well, mr. brodie. but, people justifying violence with religion is like a murderer saying "the voices told me to." anyone who murders in the name of religion is just a psychopath, or they want something else, like land or revenge.

Let's distinguish what zealots and fanatics do in the name of religion, and what the religion actually teaches.

And lets stick with the world since WWII, since that was the war that was supposed to get rid of the zealots and fanatics of the world.

Since muslims are so fond of the moon, let's evacuate them to the moon. They will be happy there, and we peoples of the free world can say: "Finally Peace".

Hi...

World religions should be respected. In my opinion posts of this nature attract traffic, if that was your idea, then you are foolish!

True muslims really condemn these suicide bombing and killing innocent people, but do not condemn killing those who kill them and invaide their lands..this is logic! any people in occupied land will resist the invaidors with all means..right?!
about the danish drawings, not they are not free to interfere with others affairs, do all of you like ( in the name of freedome of expression) to come one day and insult your wives or parents in such cartoons to be puplished world wide?!! of course not! so you have to know that Prophet Mohammed is much more important for us than any other one in the world, we love him as no one in the world loved any one..we can not accept any word to be said on him because if you read his history and knew about his morals and mercy all of humanity will respect him even his enemies..

People who wish to keep their religious beliefs free from government interference ought be more circumspect. Keep your religion to yourself: the rest of us don't want to hear about your egregious demands.

Richard Brodie, I'm neither muslim, neither am I an authority on Islam, I took what you said about art being forbidden, as close to, if not the truth , based solely on what you said.

And in my reply, what i really meant was, that all that art is clearly not aimed at the muslims, not aimed at their culture, and so, although they would prefer to be without art, they acknowledge the presence and rights of non-muslims, and do not decry all of that. Whereas, when there's a useage of this freedom of speech that is clearly aimed at their culture, they have have every right to reply as they feel right, obviously i hope that in this reply they are not equally racist, and on thw whole i don't beleive they have been.

I beleive they've clearly chosen to adjust to a world where their laws aren't upheld, but not as an insult to islam, instead, because of the existence of other religions and peoples, of other ideas, and maybe out of ignorance of what's in the Quran. But when something like the cartoons came out, clearly targeting Islam, they no longer are dealing with the existence of other cultures, but a direct insult to their religion.

At first when I heard what some of the Islamic countries did as a reaction to the cartoons, i felt that it was an over-reaction. But seeing this article and some of the comments made here, made me really angry. I wouldn't have done the same thing as the countries did, but recognise their right to do as they feel, and would never make this a reason to call Islam a "Religion of Intolerance".

Brodie:

Abu Hurairah is not equally 'authoritative' to all schools of thought within islam. In fact he in not at all authoritative to some. aska shia and ask a sunni.

so my point stands. you are welcome to quote the worst examples. Yes, there are plenty of those too, as propaganda, among sects and justification for legitimacy of 'muslim' regimes, states and usurpers. Islamic history demonstates that that this is less about religion than politics, in my opinion.

updated site with the 12 toons

Rohan,

These cartoons "clearly targetting Islam" are no different than cartoons portaying Bush as an imbecile, which clearly target neo-conservatives. The fact is that in the civilized world we recognize the right to Freedom of Speech. And this includes being able to ridicule and express our hatred for any public figure and any political OR RELIGIOUS philosophy. Just look at the "hate speech" that has been expressed towards Pope Benedict.

We tolerate the Arab/Muslim world's hate speech toward our sacred ideal of Freedom of Expression, don't we? I don't care how much they rail about it, but I draw the line at the point where they try to intimidate with threats of violence, and seek to get the U.N. to try and nullify our consitutional protections, by having THEIR religion set up as some kind of a special ideological preserve that is off limits to Free Speech.

The best way to get people to see your point of view is to hit them on the head with a 2x4 -- the harder the better.

The real problem is the pathetic mentality of those that follow RELIGION of any sort.
These utterly stupid people are oblivious to the reality of life - there is NO GOD,but there are many humans prepared to kill others in the name of their misguided beliefs.
Currently, the most intolerant of all faiths is Islam, this is probably a reflection of the primitive minds prevalent in those areas of the world where it's practised and where manifold acts of barbarism are regular testimony to it's intolerance and desire to dominate.
Religion is about POWER and nothing else, it trades on the gullibility of masses to exercise influence on their lives.
Rid the world of religion and the human race will embark on the true road to peace.

see the light, looking for some, wrote

"there is NO GOD,"

Alright - you've made your assertions. Now let's see your proofs.

These derogatory cartoons show the depth of hatred and ignorance about Islam and Muslims in the West. It is correct for Muslims to condemn this filth published by the Danish newspaper and to boycott their goods. I have read some comments by people on this board and their knowledge level is zero while their hatred level is very high. Even after destroying Iraq and killing thousands of innocent muslims, the bloodthirsty Americans/Israelis are not satisfied.

Hi Ruvy,
Typically you have missed the point.
It is not incumbent on those who do not believe to prove the non- existance of a God, it is up to those that do, but of course they can't.
If an individual is receptive to idiotic superstition and ready to mentally translate mythology/fantasy into reality, there is little hope for that individual as they are ripe for religious exploitation by those seeking control and power.
Just take a look at human history.

what's all the fuss about?

take a look for yourself


http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/

Aamir, evidencing a "very high level of hatred" towards the West, says:

I have read some comments by people on this board and their knowledge level is zero while their hatred level is very high. Even after destroying Iraq and killing thousands of innocent muslims, the bloodthirsty Americans/Israelis are not satisfied.

Aren't you lucky, Aamir, that America gives you the Freedom of Speech to come onto the American created and American controlled Internet and express how much you HATE what you (erroneously) perceive that America is doing! How does it feel to be able to BENEFIT from our Freedom of Speech to express what you hate about the West, while at the same time CONDEMNING Freedom of Speech because it allows US to express what we hate about your culture and religion (such as the "bloodthirsty Arab/Muslim terrorists", to use your own manner of speaking).

Far from being "zero", our level of knowledge is actually very high. The Arab world's recent childish tantrum over these Danish and Norwegian catoons, and the call by Muslims WORLDWIDE (not just by some fringe extremists) to be granted special exemption from the Freedom of Speech rights which exist in the CIVILIZED portions of this planet, are what cause us to experience the most profound revulsion toward an ideology that belongs back in the DARK AGES, not in the Modern enlightened Free world.

see the light

I kinda suspected you'd try to get out of proving your assertions with that line of BS. Proving a negative is a lot harder than proving a positive, which is why it is intelligent not to make negative assertions.

If you can't prove your assertions, they are just statements of faith, as in "I believe there is no etc."

Makes you no better than me in that department.

Stick with agnosticism. It's a learned way to say "I don't know" - you don't.

Richard, I beleive in Free Speech, and ask all neo-conservatives to boycott goods from whomsoever makes fun of Bush, if that is what they want.

Again I repeat, i wouldn't have done what they did, and even if they have gone to the UN, it's they're right to propose such a resolution, which would then be voted on by the assembly...

And I agree with your reaction to this too, it's your own right. What i didn't agree with was your comment on how ridiculous it was for muslims to be angry with the cartoons, and not the art world.

See the light, there is no God? I don't assert that there is one, but i have to say, where d'you think all this came from? Everything, all of it?
I can at least clearly see where anyone who beleives in God is coming from.

I live in a muslim country, that is, for a fact, safer than most other places in the world, a muslim country that accepts outsiders as long as they're modest.

I don't agree with your statement that Islam is 'primitive...to me it's as primitive as the other 2 big monotheistic religions.....
Some of my good friends are muslim, and I've met many muslims and only some of them i'd consider 'primitive' or 'barbaric', pretty much the same amount as i would of the christians, or hindus that I've met.

Hi there! Today I purchased a lot of DANISH BEER! To support our friends in the north. Islam a religion of peace? Yes, but peace on their terms only, and we in the west nowadays know what that means. The new caliphate, they can stick it up to their... you know what.

stl refers us to:

http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/

Take a look at the last one. It is actually quite complimentary to Mohammed. He is depicted confronting an incensed, sword brandishing mob, and he says:

Easy my friends, when it comes to the point, it is only a drawing made by a non-believing Dane.

Ruvy: "Makes you no better than me in that department.

Stick with agnosticism. It's a learned way to say "I don't know" - you don't."

And, neither do you. Pairing Lights atheism with your faith is a double edged sword: he's no better than a believer and a believer is no better than him, ergo, both should be agnostic. Is that really what you want to say?

My early religious indoctrination was subsquently usurped by a scientific education. The latter required belief to be substantiated by irrevocable evidence, everythibg about our existence can be satisfactorily explained without resorting to superstition or religion etc.
It is usual for some of those indoctrinated with religious beliefs to desire to "convert" or impose their views on others. Often they are dogmatic and will resort to extremes to assert their opinion and throughout history this has been the case. The most appalling deeds against man have been commited in the name of religion and currently we are witnessing how Islam can be used to terrorise, kill and mame innocent people around our planet.

Ruvy, I'm sure you too will eventually come to realise how you have been misled and how a humanist position rather than blindly following a religious doctrine will help make the world a better place for all.

Rohan, I agree, I can see where people with religious views are coming from, I just think it's unfortunate they are not better equipped to assess the evidence (or lack of it).
All religions are based on faith, i.e. belief, not factual evidence. Folklore and historical inaccuracy underpins the "teaching" of all religions and irrefutable scientific evidence is conveniently ignored, because it undermines the credibility of the doctrine.
Rid us of religion and we'll be well on our way to a peaceful planet where human effort and resources can be directed to helping improve the lives of the less fortunate - the job that religions are supposed to do but as we see throughout history have singularly failed to accomplish.
Nothing more to say on this subject, I have seen the light and it's not coming from any GOD.

People should keep their religious belief private, and they should be happy that they can. If their religious belief leads them to be better people and to behave better in society, good. But if they get drunk by the feeling of communal power they become dangerous as they seek to impose their ideas on others.

The problem with people practicing their religion is that most people don't practice their religion.

the illustrations arent a far cry from the truth. the islamic world needs to join the rest of the world in practicing freedom of the press, freedom of religion, expression...etc. FREEDOM IN GENERAL!!! get on with the times and get along with the rest of the world because after 2050...that whole part of the globe will be totally useless when the oil industry dries up. so who will you turn to then?

Another UPDATE on the situation, this one from the BBC...

See the Light

Does the word "obfuscation" mean anything to you? No? No reason, just checking. . .

Your "scientific education" has obviously failed you. Instead of being able to think for yourself, you've eaten up atheism because it has come from the hands of well-educated men and women. To require evidence is intelligent, however, it seems you've assumed we've already learned everything we can about the universe. I, for one, believe that we still have far much more knowledge to gain, and, until the time comes that we understand science in its entirety, for you to say "prove God exists" is intellectually childish. Until we understand science in its absolute whole, God is best left as a philosophical question (and, ultimately, it is much more fulfilling that way). The question evolves into: "How does existence itself exist?"

You are right when you say that many religious people attempt to "convert" others to their particular beliefs, and you are also correct in stating that many dishonorable deeds have been committed in the name of religion. As JC said, "The problem with people practicing their religion is that most people don't practice their religion" (well put, JC). To say that removing religion would make the world a better place is a tad naive. Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, or that Muhammad was Allah's Prophet does not hurt anyone -- if anything, it gives people a sense of hope. It is people who are the problem, who, as part of their nature, seek to impose their ways upon others. You are guilty of the same fault you abhor when you tell Ruvy that:

"I'm sure you too will eventually come to realise how you have been misled and how a humanist position rather than blindly following a religious doctrine will help make the world a better place for all."

In the end, whether public or private, religion is a good thing. Not only does it give people a sense of hope (which, as we've discussed, you are in no intellectual position to refute), but it also gives people a reason to treat each other well. What needs improvement is humanity.

It seems that the Muslim commenters are insulted by the allegedly blasphemous depictions of their prophet, Muhammad.

Free people in a secular society have a right to insult and blaspheme to their heart's content. Blasphemy laws were repealed ages ago.

I have no idea as to the veracity of the pedophilia charges, but let me say that I do not believe that Muhammad was god's prophet. At best, he suffered from delusions; At worst, he was a charlatan and a fraud.

Oh, you don't like hearing that?

Too bad. Grow up and grow a thicker skin.

Thanks, Josh,

I haven't been much in the mood for philosphical discourse lately.

I am a Dane. I am agnogstic. I have a view on religions based on a secular,scientific or complete rational and logical deduction.

I have constitutionally granted right to question and debate any beliefs, political convictions or religions especially those that presents themselves to me in my face.If it wants me to change my society I have the right to object.

Islam is more than a system of religious thinking. It is also a POLITICAL manual for the way society should function. Alas the Sharia the Prophet and the Qouran can be discussed and opposed the way I oppposed communism. It is my right. Like it or not.

The quoran desecretes a lot of my beliefs and a lot of the followers and nations practise a form of Islam that I deplore. The wahhabi the stonings of raped women, adulterous couples, the oppression of gay rights. Only muslim contries like Turkey have laws originating from secular thinking.

Dear and repected muslims writing in here. Please explain to me as a dane why:

The christians cannot wear their crucifix in Saudiarabia and might go to jail.

Why cant they bring their Bibles.

Why is this more tolerant of their christian faith than painting Muhammed...peace be on him...

As, what you call a infidel, person I am interested in history and the religions impact over time. In that capacity I have seen numerous depictins and paintings of the Prophet...PBOH...made by musims......I am aware that the shias have practised it over long periods.......Why do you care what I think or do as a nonbeleaver......the sharia dosent apply to me......And never should.....unless I go to a muslim contry.....which I have done on many occasions......but never again.....I respect peoples traditions and bow to them when i go on visit. But I expect reciprocity.

A last question.....Would the muslim community react the same way if the drawings had not included´the bombhat...Only depicted him as the shepard as one of them did,,,,,,,,,Are you aware that the delegation of danish muslims that brought their complain to the arab goverments had included MANY fake pictures og the Prophet...pboh...Some of them he was mounted by a dog and depicted as a pig........I wonder if it was a muslim that fabricated those images..

I find it offensive to depict religious persons that way....rather any human or non human being...I beleave jews are often portayed that way in Saudi....

Being a critic of institutionalized religion in any form is not racist and can´t ever be.....All colours of people embrace all kinds of religion...

it's pretty simple: Islam needs a Reformation. iam hopeful that the beginnings of one have begun. There isn't much place left in the world for religious outrage

That's kinda funny. I heard about it on the news but wanted to see the cartoons or hear what happened.

I happen to have great respect for the prophet and Islam, and why they go crazy when he is maligned is beyond me. I mean there is no depiction of him. And people make fun of Jesus here like there is no tomorrow.


DID I SEE THE NEXT ATTACK HERE?

I had a dream/vision this morning and in light of what Oh Bin laid on us, I want to share it:

I was with a group of people and we looked up into the sky and a tower (it stood alone with all the other buildings around it much shorter) was clearly on fire.

It had the same black, dark clouds coming out of it and rising to the sky. I think that the building was consummed...it just disappeared in the black smoke...no more building!

Someone in the crowd was saying something about it being their daughter's school.

It could be a building on a college or U campus with a tower standing alone with the other buildings shorter...the only clue about a place seemed to be that it started with M or had M and S in the state or city,...not sure about the location, which is crucial....but hope this vision is wrong...

Anybody else had an warnings????

Heloise

Actually, Eric, what Islam suffered was being hijacked by the Wahhabi. Islam is not the religion of terror it appears to be. The Wahhabi have done one heck of a job in ruining the image of that faith.

speaking as someone who has lived in pakistan for 18 years and was born a muslim(though i dont consider myslef one anymore)
Islam IS a backward religon incompatible with the 21 century. and i personally feel that freedom of speech should prevail and nobody should have to apologise for anything.
however some comments about Islam in previous posts are horribly horribly twisted as are the facts.
live and let live
now lets have a cold one

Anders,
"I have constitutionally granted right to question and debate any beliefs, political convictions or religions especially those that presents themselves to me in my face.If it wants me to change my society I have the right to object."

Questioning a belief or debating is very different from insulting and very different from linking terrorism to an inherit part of Islam and Mohammad.

We have not asked anyone in the world to believe in our beliefs, we just asked not to insult our whole religion in this worst way.

Insult and hate campaign are very different from debating or questioning.
I guess your Danis law has the following:

the Danish Penal Code: Section 266b:
Any person who publicly or with the intention of dissemination to a wide circle of people makes a statement or imparts other information threatening, insulting or degrading a group of persons on account of their race, color, national or ethnic origin, belief or sexual orientation, shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

So, actually, Muslims are asking about their rights only.

Muslims accepted insults and accepted lies and misleading information for many decades. Some of the results I can see it in many discussion groups of the hate tone, most based on lies and misleading facts about Islam.

Anonymous Muslim wrote: "How about the catholics in Italy making a big deal about this goofy ad by Sony and making them pull it?"

At least the catholics handled it in a non-violent way.

Interesting similar example about freedom of Speech from New Jersey:

Type in google rutgers university holocaust and you will find many articles about:

NEW BRUNSWICK, N.J. - Student editors of a campus newspaper at Rutgers University apologized Wednesday for publishing a cartoon that mocked the Holocaust.

Editors of the Medium acknowledged they had hurt the feelings of readers by printing an illustration on the cover of the April 21 edition showing a man throwing a ball at another man sitting on an oven at the campus' spring fair. The text read: "Knock a Jew in the oven! Three throws for one dollar! Really! No, REALLY!"

"It is the responsibility of our staff to ... act with dignity by responding with a due apology," the newspaper said in a statement.

The cartoon sparked strong objections from many students and school officials, including university President Richard L. McCormick. Several national Jewish organizations also condemned the alternative weekly newspaper.

Editors said the drawing was not intended to be anti-Semitic but was "meant to amuse through extraordinary absurdity."

McCormick said he was pleased with the newspaper's apology. "I am hopeful that this apology is a sign of progress toward more responsible editorial judgment and exercise of their First Amendment rights," he said in a statement.

Andres points out:

Islam is more than a system of religious thinking. It is also a POLITICAL manual for the way society should function.

It's more than just a manual of "guidelines". It's the law of the land in many Arab countries. That puts the Koran in the same position as constitutions in the Western World. Thus, criticising Mohammed and Islam falls into the same POLITICAL category as criticising Western political philosophies and leaders such as Marx and Communism, Jefferson and Republicanism, Roosevelt and Socialism, etc. If questioning these things, or even ridiculing and making fun of them, hurts somebody's tender feelings, TOO BAD! We are not going to stifle political discussion just because one primitive political movement wants to try and dress itself up as a religion.

And that is why, waleed, the Danish law about degrading someone because of their beliefs, applies to anti-Jewish defamation, but not to anti-Islamic defamation. Israel has a secular government which does not try to implement barbaric punishments from Old Testament times, the way Arab countries "chop hands off, slit throats, and stone people" - in the approving words of the Ayatollah Khomeni on the occsion of a birthday of Mohammed (pbuh).

The Jews keep their religion a private matter, and don't entertain ambitions of conquering the entire world with their doctrine, the way you guys do. Have you ever heard of such a thing as a Jewish suicide bomber? Of course not! That's because they have a culture that encourages people to live, not one like yours that encourages them to die.

All this having been said, I do not go along with the Danish, anti-hate speech law. These kind of laws are an unfortunate dilution of the Freedom of Speech. The ultimate ideal of true Liberty is to outlaw only those ACTIONS that result in DIRECT physical harm or incursion - murder, physical assault, battery, and tresspassing. You don't legislate about thoughts or emotions - neither attempting to force people to feel and express love, nor forcing them NOT to feel and express hate. I find hate speech law considerably more Orwellian than the government profiling and eavesdropping in order to try and prevevnt terrorism.

Waleed:

I don't get your point. Seems like a normal exercise of free speech on all sides.

Ruvy & Josh,
thanks for your replies but we must agree to disagree - that's the way the way civilised people behave. Unfortunatley there are those who cannot come to terms with an alternative opinion and resort to imposing their views in unacceptable ways. I'm sure that neither of you are in that category and are sincere in your beliefs, I just think you're wrong.
Some "faiths" are particularly intolerant and one in particular is renowned, hence the furore.

May your Gods go with you

In Australia's New South Wales Supreme Court in December 2005, a visiting Pakistani rapist testified that his victims had no right to say no, because they were not wearing a headscarf.

And earlier this year Australians were outraged when Lebanese Sheik Faiz Mohammed gave a lecture in Sydney where he informed his audience that rape victims had no one to blame but themselves. Women, he said, who wore skimpy clothing, invited men to rape them.

A few months earlier, in Copenhagen, Islamic mufti and scholar, Shahid Mehdi created uproar when - like his peer in Australia - he stated that women who did not wear a headscarf were asking to be raped.

see more about everyday islamicfascism on Europeans and Scandinavians here:

Richard,
<>

Very strange interpretations of a law in double standard. However, we got used to double standard in all of our problems when dealing with the west.

I can see that you have a lot of hate towards us based on many propagandas.

But, one thing you need to learn if you are into these debates: to diffrentiate who is who?
"Because people see headlines that they don't like (they will) apply that to a whole religion, a whole faith, a whole region and a whole people?" he asked.

When you talk about Khomani is very different when you talk about Islam is very different when you talk about Muslims is very different when you talk about Arabs is very different when you talk about terrorists. I think you group us all together?

Mohmmad Ali was asked after 911 how he feels that he and Osama Bin Laden belongs to the same religion? He instantly replied, same way you feel that Hitler belongs to your religion.

Terrorists are killing as a matter of retaliation and not because of religion. Their value is: "if they killed our civilians, we will kill their civilians". So, the whole propaganda (including the cartoons)is to convince people that these people kill out of their religion to diverse the issue from the oppression that these people faced over most of the 20 century.

There are different western journalists who used to be strongly anti-islam anti-arabs and when they travelled to Lebanon, Palestine or other places, they changed their opinions and writings 180 degree.

islam is rotten, just look at every islamic land, in iran you are trown into prison if you become a christian

in arabia the bible is forbidden

in morocco and almost every islamic land metal music is forbidden

if it was just a small number of terrorists then there lands wouldn't be so fascist

I am talking about the Danish issue which the law give us protection. And everybody else is talking about hate to Islam.

1. Most of your info guys are wrong or twisted.

2. If you talk about human rights? Then, the biggest number of people died because of insane killing in the last several decades was in Europe. Funny, you killed millions of jews then to solve it, you throw a whole nation out of thier land and send jews there? Why didn't america or anyone in europe give jew peice of land to make it up?

mmmm, was not almost every arab country occupied by a european country in the 20s century? killing millions of innocents there? oppps one more, iraq, US + many european. The reason were lies and mistakes. Oh yes, that was after half million iraqis lost their lives because of a decade of sanction.

No musical instrument is not forbidden in morroco lol or any arab country not at all, but don't you see your you need to re-look into your definition of human rights?

Armed militants angered by a cartoon drawing of the Prophet Muhammad in several European newspapers surrounded the office of the EU Commission in Gaza and searched hotels for foreigners to kidnap in the West Bank!!

WHAT? Does Islam mean 'peace'? Peace in WHAT?

Waleed, the Jew demanded a country on their land. THEIR LAND! Got it?

Now, why don't the Islamic country take back their Arab people from Palestine and gave back the land to the Jew?

Hmm....on the whole it's a fact that today Islamic Radicals are dangerous, but not any more so than christian, hindu, jewish, buddhist radicals were in the past.

Islam is reforming, just because it doesn't happen on american/western terms, doesn't mean it's not happening. Some Countries here in the Arabian Peninsula now allow women to vote, and contest elections, many countires are also forming constituitions and moving towards democracy. Shariah may *seem* brutal, but it's also very effective.

Dutch Viking. I'm disgusted. Bibles are allowed in the country, in fact I have three in my own house and I'm not even Christian. Metal Music is allowed. There's a catholic church, and hindus are allowed to congregate for prayer.

The present backlash of Islamic militants is a consequence of western imposition, extending a long time into past, among other things.

To me all three big monotheistic religions are the same. They say almost the same things in different ways. The history according to them may be different, but they're still saying the same thing.

This is a messed up issue. I am tolerant, I also accept any religion if it is based on peace. I have also gone to a mosque to try to understand the Muslim religion. I was greeted with open arms, and felt very free to ask any question I wanted. In fact, the mosque where I live (In Ontario, Canada) went out of its way to help local people understand the true beauty of their religion.

This is my only experience, first hand, with this religion. Now, I understand that there are radicals in every religion. We've all been pursecuted in some way, heck, every major religion has had its dark days.

The problem is that we don't know what the after life holds, if anything. So, to kill each other in the name of religion does not make sense.

If Muslim people are offended, they should be. I know Christians would be offended by the same depiction.

BUT....in my country, we have to understand that everyone is entitled to their own view whether you like it or not. You may not like it--fine voice your opinion--yell, scream, boycott--but no one, I mean no one has the right to attack another person.

THis type of action will only reaffirm the stereotype that Muslims are violent. It is obviously wrong, but Westerners are new to the Muslim religion and they are very afraid of what they do not understand. So, I can only hope that everyone tries the same thing I did, get involved, go to a mosque, church, or whatever, learn about what is really going on before you pass your final judgement.

Never make assumptions based on no first hand knowledge.

Shariah may *seem* brutal, but it's also very effective.

Can't argue with that. Stoning a woman to death for being raped certainly does protect her against ever being raped again!

How dare America offend Middle Eastern Muslim sensibilities by punishing the rapist instead of the rape-ee. We need to adjust our backward so-called "civilized" conception of law, and instead follow the enlightened example of Islam.

Let's all write to our Congressmen and Congresswomen and demand, in the name of ethnic sensitivity for God's sake, that the death penalty be established for American women who goad Muslim men into rape, by not wearing burkas to cover up their irresistably beautiful and seductive faces.

Waleed,

Unless I am wrong, you and I met on another thread and you live in Saudi Arabia.

I do not hate Islam. I respect Islam. But I know that the Wahhabi were kicked out by the Sunni 200 years ago or more. And if you're living in Saudi Arabia, and you are a Moslem, unless you are a visiting dignitary, you are Wahhabi.

And some of us understand how the system works in your country. Ibn Saud, supplied with money or weapons by the Union Bank, conquered Mecca and Medina and made himself king. He set his princes over the clans and they kind of supervise things.

And some of us understand that while the average Moslem does not really desire to conquer the world, but wants to be respected like anyone else, the Wahhabi have world conquest in mind. And your government, in addition to using the oil revenues you get to buy missiles and airplanes and a health and university system, build roads, etc, etc, also has invested very heavily in buying up the rest of Islam. We all understand the concept. You don't piss on the boss's shoes. And if the boss is a Saudi investor, you do what he says.

So, while out of one side of your mouth, you talk about rights under the Danish Civil Code, out of the other, you talk abut asking Allah to remove the Zionist entity. That is how your imams talk.

YOUR religion, your Qur'an says that when the Jews return to their homes in Israel, you Moslems will stand ready to help us build it. And Sherif Feisal, the man thrown off his throne by ibn Saud with American money, was ready to do just that. He respected his faith.

That is not how you guys talk. Hamas is Wahhabi influenced. They say they will never recognize our right to our own land. You say "you killed millions of Jews then to solve it, you throw a whole nation out of their land and send Jews there?"

That just don't cut the mustard. Your Qur'an recognizes our rights to the Land of Israel. I'm not talking about the Tana"kh.

I'm not talking about Christians. I'm not talking about the United Nations. Your book and mine both give MY people the right to live in Israel.

There is something very sick about the Wahhabi version of Islam. I'm not talking about chopping off hands or repressing women. I'm talking about the fact that you guys do not value life. You're willing to kill off other Moslems who don't agree with you. You're willing to kill off Christians. You are willing to kill off Jews. And remember, any Jew who really comprehends Judaism and believes in G-d understands what a Moslem is - the word mushlám means perfect in Hebrew. Your doctrines are not Islam. This is not perfecting oneself by submitting to Allah. That is just plain old fashioned murder.

That kind of Islam is unfortunately the brand of Islam that is more and more found in Europe and America, thanks to Saudi oil money. So, you guys have really pissed off the Europeans and they are now doing things that are perfectly legal, but which they would not normally do.

Sorry Waleed. Making fun of Mohammed is not a nice thing to do, not a very respectful thing to do. But your brand of Islam has gone against the basic precepts of your faith - to live in peace where there is peace. And now you are reaping the fruit. I will repeat here what I wrote in comment #2. It bears repeating.

The facts in Gaza speak for themselves. The ugly of face of Wahhabi inspired intolerance in Islam is there for anyone who wishes to look. Instead of seeking to live in peace in lands where there is peace, your people seek death, murder, mayhem...

...The rioters in Gaza make the truth all too obvious.

Your book and mine

Ruvy, why isn't your book also their book? Muslims write "pbuh" whenever referring to Abraham or Jesus. So why don't they regard the Old and New Testaments to be scripture on a par with the Koran?

It seems like their exclusive emphasis is on the Koran. Did Mohammed (pbuh) really want his followers to throw out all previous revelation from Elohim (the Hebrew word for Allah)?

I'd like to hear Waleed's answer as well.

Some of you guys needs to meet real muslims instead of imagined ones.

Richard, there is a very strong similarity between Islam and Judaism. What you are looking at in terms of names for the Divinity are the liguistic differences between Hebrew and Arabic. They usd their terms and we use ours.

Qur'an, is related to the Hebrew root for reading or calling.

But their book was written about 1400 years ago or so. Ours was revealed to us 3,300 years ago. The Qur'an includes within it many rabbinic rulings that are not in Torah or Tana"kh. I can't talk about the NT.

Moslems view their Qur'an as final revelation, and claim that we changed it to come up with the Torah.

<>

I read this many times, and i have no clue about its origin. A raped woman is a victim and the rapist is one of worst crimes. Anything other than that is a lie.

In our religion, we believe that a prostitute who had a lot of sins, entered heaven because one time she found a thirsty dog that was about to die from thirst and she had mercy on him and helped him and helped him to drink water. So, god forgave her with that simple thing for all of her sins. There is no limit to god forgiveness, and one good thing can wash out many bad things. But, this will be judged by God.

This why we believe that in our whole life we strive to do good and strive to avoid bad.

Ruvy : no just that it changed over time, the essential message of the revelation to the prophets were the same.

Prophetic fallacy

any way this a good article from the Guardian by
Dr Agnès Callamard is executive director of Article 19, a human rights organisation focusing on the defence and promotion of freedom of expression and freedom of information worldwide.

I read this many times, and i have no clue about its origin. A raped woman is a victim and the rapist is one of worst crimes. Anything other than that is a lie.

Then evidently you didn't follow the links provided by Dutch Viking in post #95, concerning the epidemic plague of Muslim men who are brutally gang raping European women and children, down to as young as 9 year old little girls, all over France, Britain, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Australia.

This practice:

1. is being ingnored or downplayed by the European multiculturalist appeasement establishment (one official in Norway actually suggested that Norwegian women will just have to start covering themselves up more, and not making themselves look so atractive, so they won't unduly stimulate the Mulsim male immigrants!); and

2. is being defended by prominent Muslim scholars and spokesmen.

Read it. It will turn your stomach, and make you wonder why these countries don't have the courage to protect their women by sending every single Muslim immigrant back where they can rape, stone, and honor-kill their own women.

Mr. Waleed, I'm surprised that you don't know about the news. I'm not blaming you because lots of people 'keep only the information they like as the truth'. Here you go...
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17183525%255E32522,00.html

You also miss the point. It's your Islam teachers saying that "a woman should be RAPED because she doesn't hijab."

There are good Christians, there are evil Christians.

There are good Jews, there are evil Jews.

There are good Muslims, there are evil Muslims.

The battle should be between good and evil, not between diverse religions.

Gazelle,

Thanks for the link. It made interesting reading.

Ruvy,

When it comes to the Middle East there are two things that drives the politics: Palestine/Israel issue, and oil. All the media whether when it brings good news or bad news has political agenda behind everything they say.

Yes, I am a Saudi, and Islam is Islam, there is nothing as Wahabbism or other thing. There are Sunni about 80% and Sheie about 20%, there are other small groups here and there but very small. "Wahabbism version of Islam" is an American made label. I grew my whole life till I finished college and nothing was called as "Wahabbism version of Islam".

The whole propaganda came because it happened that Bin Ladin was a Saudi. He fought in Afghanistan during Reagan time against S Union. Same like many are fighting in Iraq today. He took training and had good links to CIA. Reagan used to call "Jihad" as "War for freedom" and supported them to fight S Union. Later on, when they fought the Americans it was called "holy war" and "terrorism".

When Osama commented on 911 in his famous tapes, he mentioned half million kids who died in Iraq, and mentioned Palestine he never mentioned Wahabbism or he hates others for the sake of hating.

Of course, we consider 911 and anything like it as crimes, but we also consider killing our people as crimes as well. We do have one standard in dealing with things.

So, my point, that is the whole propaganda of linking Islam, and Wahabism in Saudi Arabi and Saudi Arabia to terrorism is to divert the public opinions from the main reason of why "America under Attack"

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Wrong.
You must saw it on a distorted version of Quran of one of these internet sites that has many lies about Quran.

gazelle...

Re: Prophetic fallacy quote:

"The right to freedom of opinion and expression is a fundamental right that safeguards the exercise of all other rights and is a critical underpinning of democracy."

The application of this depends on whose ox is being gored.

I just read the story of the Pakistan raped girl. Very sad and bad. However, this story represent nothing of Islam religion. Rapist were Muslims? Yes, but bad ones, criminal ones, who obviously should be punished.

It happened because they were away from Islam. In different similar tribes, there are a lot of ignorance about Islam.

So, this issue should not be labelled as "women in Islam" but "women in Pakistani tribes".

Another UPDATE...

And yet another UPDATE...

Anyone who did not expect this outrage is a fool.

Anyone who causes outrage just to get a laugh is an idiot.

Crying "free speech" is

not a vakid excuse.

sorry, -- valid.

"Anyone who causes outrage just to get a laugh is an idiot."

But why are Muslims so easily outraged? You can call the cartoonist an idiot if you want (I respect your right to free speech!), but what about the lunatics going crazy in Gaza and elsewhere in the Muslim world over a few friggin' drawings?

The West allows "idiots" to make silly, provacative political statements. Good for the West.

The Muslim world responds to such freedoms with death threats and violence. And that ain't good for anybody...

There is no "equal outrage" law.

Outrage is a matter of "choice".

Elliot's latest link contains the following:

Kofi Annan, the United Nations secretary-general, said he believed "freedom of the press should always be exercised in a way that fully respects the religious beliefs and tenets of all religions".

Translated from multiculti doublespeak:

"Freedom of the press should always be exercised in a way that is consistent with DENYING freedom of the press when it comes to religion."

What an asshole this idiot is. If he had his way he would outlaw Free Speech forums like Blogcritics, if they didn't bleep out negative commentary on ANY religious beliefs. And this isn't just a farfetched hypothetical either. Right now he continues to agitate for transferring control of the internet from the United States to the United Nations.

The war is coming. Islam doesn't tolerate any negativity about the faith. There is no freedom of speech in that regard.

But Christianity is not much better, they recommend praying for the death of Supreme Court Justices. Christianity will boycott the advertisers of a show, if they don't approve of it and shut it down. There is