Blogcritics Comments on AA: Threat or Menace?

Comment by Elvira Black

Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:44:26 EST

batsmore03: Were we at the same meetings? Hey, you never know--lol....congrats on being able to stop without AA--though many of its members would have one believe it's well-nigh impossible to do so. That sucks that you had to go through so much and had to endure such a negative experience with creepy people. I'm assuming someone had mandated you to go, which I think very seldom works. Sounds like your wife has been a very postiive influence and support system for you. I'm so happy to hear it's worked out so well. Ah yes, the smoking...I'm battling that too. Used to be the meeting rooms were as smoky as any bar, but now in NYC you can't light up in either place--just as well, though, right? LOL... Many thanks for your comment!

Comment by batsmore03

Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:16:36 EST

Frankly I agree with you Elvira. Were we in the same meetings? When I went, the people were friendly at first but that didn't last long. I was having to travel 50 miles round trip from our home and they expected me to be there each meeting. I got a life other then spending my time there three to four times each week.Some of the people there were nasty smelling and just grossed my wife & I out. We at the time were trying to raise children and had to find sitters each time we went. We were not about to take them with us to the meetings. I worked as a carpenter and was always to tired to sit thru listening to people say the same thing nite after nite. We were expected to give money each night or we got some evil looks from the other members. Then there were those that wanted rides all the time-usually the smelly ones that acted like they were drunk at the meetings. It was not a good experience for us at all. It just wasn't for us. My wife stayed by my side thru the whole thing and I hated to put her thru that so I stopped going. I would leave the meetings and wanted to go get drunk just from having to go thru the mess. It might be good for others and thats great. If people can get together and talk to total strangers about their bad habits and it help them- thats great. Not for me though. I never went back but did stop on my on and still don't get drunk to this day. That was around 15 years ago. Now I'm working on stopping smoking but will not go to any type of support groups. That experience was my lesson on support groups-they are not for everyone. Specially not me. Even the on line chat rooms that are suppose to help people are ridiculous. They mostly talk crap and I won't go there for help anymore either. I have learned to help myself and have my best friend to support me- my wife.

Comment by Elvira Black

Sun, 29 Jan 2006 03:36:25 EST

Note to Tim: Heard the podcast; read the excerpt from "Half-Empty"--superb! I asked the powers that be to add your book to the other two displayed before the comments, which they have done--and I plan to buy it as well.

Comment by Elvira Black

Sun, 29 Jan 2006 03:35:17 EST

Gypsyman: Thanks for the terrific comment, which to my mind sums it all up beautifully--and from the point of view of someone who's been there, done that, and found his own way--as we all must, I think.

Comment by gypsyman

Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:43:07 EST

Cheers Elvira for an honest assesment of one person's dealing with AA. The part of AA I never could get, and why I never partook, was surrendoring myself to a higher power. That's what I had been doing for the twenty years of substance abuse, surendering myself to something else, why in the hell would I want to continue doing that? Great become addicted to god or whatever spiritual thing they were selling that day, instead of booze and drugs, no thanks. Spirituality helps one overcome addiction if you like the comfort it can provide. But unless you're willing to own up to who you are, and stop surendering, your just trading one crutch for another. I'm no saint or hero because I stopped abusing drugs and booze, it was something I had to do if I was ever wanted to deal with all the shit I was running away from. Nobody, be it a judge or court order or shrink is going to get you to sober up unless you want to... I spent time in a halfway house where everybody but me was taking part in enforced AA meetings. It was amazing how many of them would show up pissed when they returned from day passes, or were smoking pot in the cans... I've got nothing against AA or groups like that, but they are not the only choice. I hope BG can find the demons that drive him and face them down, it sounds like he wants too and knows they are there which is the bravest thing any person can do. Don't let anybody tell him or you otherwise, we all have to move at our own pace, and going into those dark places inside of us is the scaries journey we have to make...good luck to both of you and hold on to your sense of humour, that serves you better than just about anything else. gypsyman

Comment by Elvira Black

Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:30:54 EST

BTW: A BG/Elvira drinking horror story can be found here--though it was swiped from my own blog (lol)...

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:55:45 EST

Roller: Frankly, it amazes me that someone who has read my entire blog would not recognize a new entry (or seven new entries) here. It also astounds me that you would never have posted one comment on either site until now, and that the one you did post seemed only an attempt to belittle and chastize me. I suspect that the only reason you are "apologizing" now is because others brought up the point that double posting at BC is perfectly acceptable. However, if I am wrong in my assumptions, I apologize as well. I'm glad you enjoy my writing, but I also believe that comments are half the point of blogging, and I try to take sufficient time to comment to other's posts and respond to those on mine. I do plan to continue to post new pieces here as well--as many as I can muster.

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:49:53 EST

Tim: Many thanks--I'll check out the link you mentioned, and congrats on your novel as well. Nancy: One of the reasons BG eventually "went out" is because he really began to see AA as a religious cult. Every meeting concludes with the Serenity Prayer which includes the word G-d. Some meetings ended with the Lord's Prayer, which is specific to Christianity, and assumes that the Lord is male (Our Father...). I also have trouble with the concept of being powerless over one's "disease." Some AAs explain their lapses and missteps by saying that "my disease was talking to me." I think the mindset that one cannot conquer an addiction save for a Higher Power takes some of the responsibility away from the individual. Life is full of difficult struggles, and I believe that in most things we do, we get out what we put in. Those who are truly determined to stop drinking can--some with the help of AA, and some by other means, but always by owning up to their personal responsibility in the matter. I also do not think that drinking excuses one from immoral behavior.

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:42:59 EST

Margaret: Thank you for the reality check. Although I've gradually developed some regular readers via my persoal blog, the fact remains that BC gets about three times as many hits each day as I have amassed in 8 or 9 months of blogging. This post was my very first one on Shithouse rat, and thus did not have many readers. In fact, I went out and "pimped" for the few readers I did get by visiting an anti-AA site. Since I love to give and receive comments, it also made sense to me to take advantage of another forum which encourages and values comments, perhaps as much as the posts themselves.

Comment by Roller

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:20:00 EST

My comment came out wrong. I only meant that I have read all the stuff here, and I have read all the stuff on your personal blog. I'm just eager for something new.

Comment by Nancy

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:19:00 EST

One problem/question I always had about AA is that they offer nothing except a religious solution. Not once while I was going w/a family member did I hear anyone mention the very basic biochemical FACT of addictive substances being based in brain production of THIQ (tetra-hydro-io-quinidine sp?) or other biochemical processes as reasons not to drink: i.e. your brain/body is never NOT going to manufacture this stuff when you drink/inhale/mainline/what-have-you, therefore you will never be able to drink/inhale/etc. They always piled on the metaphysical spiritual stuff, but left the hard-nails information out, and when I brought it up, I was regarded with horror, as if I'd proposed some kind of heresy. I should think anything that could shed light on the problem and possibly help give someone a means to get a grip on themselves would be of use, but not AA....

Comment by Tim

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:51:58 EST

Excellent! Thanks for this. I've also been completely disgusted by the maniacs, control freaks and narcissists who comprise most 12-step meetings. My first novel Half Empty deals with this a bit; I've got a short MP3 at www.undiepress.com that describes a typical NYC meeting experience (go to Podcasts then click the entry called "The Meeting"). Good stuff.

Comment by Margaret Romao Toigo

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:41:15 EST

Ms. Black, nevermind those folks who criticize your re-posting articles from your own web here at BC as that is what practically every one else here does, too. I do not know how popular your home site is and I do not think I have ever been there, anyway. Were it not for your re-posting your articles here, I would probably have never even heard of you or your work. Consider the following, which was written by Eric Olsen, publisher of Blogcritics, in an article entitled Are You a Blogcritic?

Are you a blogger? Would you like to increase your visibility and reach a very large and growing audience? Then Blogcritics may be for you.

None of us are required, or even expected, to create original articles for exclusive publication here, although I am sure that any such articles are greatly appreciated.

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:50:40 EST

Dave: The substition of one "addiction" for another is definitely true in some cases. I've witnessed people who just go to meetings all day long, or who say they "needed" a meeting like a crack addict needs the pipe. As far as what they call the "13th step"--getting romantically involved with another AAer or anyone new before a year's sobriety--this was the case with the two ultra pervs we dealt with at BGs Bronx home group. They seemed to be addicted to kinky sex, which was fine, except that they apparently wanted to get BG and I involved, or at the very least tell us every lurid detail. This woman would literally grab me in a headlock and whisper in my ear about all the intimate activities she and Skank Boy had engaged in. I finally had to appeal to one of the old timers to intervene, and she backed off somewhat after that. But this couple managed to spoil every meeting they attended, and it was particularly rough on BG who was taking the whole endeavor super seriously. So there you have it!

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:43:22 EST

John: You bring up a valid point about AA giving members a sense of community. I found that to be the case to a large degree as well. I should explain that I was a fairly heavy drinker for a time around 7 or 8 years ago, and have experienced symptoms of dependency at various times for pot, coke (ancient history) and ups. So I felt that I was "qualified" to be there, despite the (in my opinion) asinine "rule" in some AA groups against discussing substances other than alcohol, which they feel should be reserved for NA. Nonsense! At BG's home group in the Bronx, although there were some wierd birds, I did start to feel a sense of community. At first I said nothing except to mutter: "just listening today." Eventually I would contribute a comment or two, and then more, but still never dreamed I'd be able to "qualify" because of my dread of public speaking. But one day I sat down and thought over the way I'd been using substances on and off since adolescence and saw a history and pattern emerging. Shortly thereafter, I qualified at the Manhattan group, talking about alchool and the other substances I'd abused. Surprisingly, I felt no anxiety doing so at all. I guess I felt that I was part of a group of people who would not ridicule me even if I had flubbed it up. But being in BG's Bronx home group and helping each week with the setup and cleanup and cakes for anniversaries and such did make me feel good, even if there were some sick individuals we had to deal with. So all in all, I'd say AA can be wonderful for some people, and certainly a way to feel less isolated and know that you are not alone in your struggle.

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:32:16 EST

Ruvy et al: I did check with the powers that be, and they also assured me that re-publishing or simultaneously posting your blog stuff here is a-ok. Thanks for reiterating that point!

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:29:29 EST

-E: Yes, my intent is not to knock AA out of hand. I've seen for myself that it has worked beautifully for some as a lifetime solution to drinking miseries. When someone has been sober for 5, 10, 20, even 40 years via AA I guess they must be doing something right. Though BG often wondered why you'd still need to go to a meeting if you'd been sober 40 years--lol--but I can see why you would.

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:23:39 EST

Victor: Thanks! BG used to joke that going to an AA meeting could really make you want to go right out afterwards and head straight to a bar. All those war stories, going into detail about what you drank, how good it felt, etc. etc. Talk about triggers! Yep, it must have felt so liberating to be able to go out and have a few after your theater group. Sadly, alcholics just don't have this option if they're going to stay sober. I've always felt so sorry for BG because of the hangovers he endures as the "price" of partying. But interestingly enough, he seems to have developed a more moderate habit, and of course still alternates sober periods with using periods. As a matter of fact, there was one meeting we went to in Manhattan, and afterwards BG would go to the steam room he had joined nearby. I'd usually kill the time by having dinner, since BGs idea of fine dining is Wendy's. On occasion, I'd have a drink or two with dinner, and always wonder if I'd look up and see someone from the meeting I just went to looking over at me and shaking their head sadly...lol...

Comment by Dave Nalle

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:12:36 EST

There's a reason why AA has only a 5% (being generous) success rate. All it does is substitute addiction to alcohol with addiction to god or to meetings or to codependency or to OCD-like compulsive behavior patterns. And that's if you're lucky. What really scares me is the guys/girls who go to AA to meet future love interests. Dave

Comment by Elvira Black

Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:04:20 EST

Mary K: Thanks! I imagine that all the twelve step spinoffs are similar (OA, AA, NA, etc), but what's also interesting are the Al-Alon groups. I sometimes wonder why the loved ones of alcholics would have to go through the same "initiation" as the alcoholic would; making amends; doing moral inventory, etc. In addition, the loved one is included in the "disease" model, deemed to be "codependent" and enabling. Is this blaming the victim? Yes, I know codependency can be a factor in the perpetuation of alcoholism, but still... One of the problems I have with 12 step groups is that I've never been a "joiner." Since fellowship is based so heavily on steps, rules, and regs--plus a Higher Power to boot--I think you've got a recipe for "creative" interpretations that can be very manipulative. In other words, there are a lot of assholes who will try to tell you you're doing your program wrong, and attempt to "correct" you. Your point about sponsors being iffy rings true. I never had a sponsor (since I wasn't a bona fide alkie) but I witnessed a lot of AAers who seemed to be totally "addicted" to speaking to their sponsor on a daily basis or more--as if they couldn't make a move without the sponsor's approval. The sponsor is just another drunk with more time than you, and though their experience may be valuable, they're only human, y'know? Sheesh...

Comment by John Spivey

Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:32:34 EST

I think the thing that makes AA work (when it does) is the sense of community. Suffering alone is a terrible thing and trying to change all alone is extremely difficult. It's also tough when all of the need for support and encouragement falls on the shoulders of the partner. AAers may stop drinking, but many, in my experience, don't really try to change their personality profile and go for something deeper. FYI, my father was a drunk. He died that way.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:23:45 EST

I wanted to add (for the sake of Roller - wherever he is rolling around) that I think the idea at Blog Critics is to post from the our weblogs - except when there is news. So it should be no surprise to anyone going there that Shithouse Rat holds a lot of the same pieces that Elvira has posted here. Now, I'll own up and tell you all that I only started a weblog in order to post pieces here. Most of my pieces are sitting in my computer and my e-mails. A few have managed to migrate to my own weblog.

Comment by Elvira Black

Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:05:57 EST

Mary, Victor, -E: Many thanks for your comments--I'll return to respond shortly....

Comment by Elvira Black

Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:04:04 EST

Re: my Comment #2 (in reponse to comment number #1): Oh yeah, I forgot to include My Blogging Doppelganger in the list of my new "BC-exclusive" posts. That makes seven out of 15, or almost 50 percent. You, on the other hand, Roller, apparently have 50 percent of zero, which comes to...lessee.....zero? Thank you.

Comment by -E

Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:50:59 EST

I think a lot of if AA will help depends on who you are and what you need to help. There are certainly some areas where their AA groups are a complete joke. There are others where I feel they are a group of people who truly want to help each other become what they see as better people. I can find no fault in that. So AA is creepy and wont work for some, but for others it truly can. As the daughter of an alcoholic/addict I can simply applaud anyone who gets help--be it through AA or any other method. If it works for them, I certainly won't knock it.