Kudos to you Al for daringly taking on this timely "topic."

Also, my condolences for your e-mail inbox. When you awake tomorrow, you should have more comments posted than Santa gave out gifts.

Re: "more comments" That's why God made Gmail.

I won't mind if some of the younguns give me a good cussing- I deserve a little of that from time to time I reckon. I just wish they'd listen to some Marvin or Boyz II Men first, and THEN tell me I'm wrong.

In 30 years these Pretty Ricky fans are gonna be all crotchety about "kids these days" and their Soylent Green.

P.S., I'm 23 and can't stand the music today. But Styx can still bring the house down, as of Aught Three.

Wow Al, you really are a glutton for punishment. BTW, it takes about a week and a half for the hordes to discover a Pretty Ricky posts, so you still have time to delete this.

Dave

You will be struck down by many bolts of teenage hormonal lightning, then B5, Pretty Ricky and Omarion will dress up in drag and dance over your blog.

Great, great derisive writing - Editor's Pick of the Year, from me, at least

When will you be featured on O'Reilly - both for your acerbity and your insight on 'bad' popular music, one of his pet peeves?

Great stuff, Al, as usual

i, for one, cannot wait to see what happens to this thread in about a week or so

it should be fucking hilarious

big Al, yer a brave...albeit masochistic, fellow

Excelsior!

Thanks Gonzo. I ain't feeling all that especially brave, though. I ain't scared of some herd of illiterate teenagers. What are they going to do, street slang me to death?

when in Doubt, big al..just listen to the Gourds cover of "Gin and Juice" i sent you

that will sustain you!!

best....cover....ever

Excelsior!

Is that supposed to be "oui, oui" instead of wee-wee?

Either way, yuck. Much better naughty French pop out there, such as the original "Lady Marmalade."

FIRST OFF YALL WHITE PEOPLE WRITING SHIT THAT DONT MAKE NO SENSE. PRETTY IS SEXY AND BETTA LOOKING THEN YO FAMILY AND MOMMA CONBINED. DONT EVA SAY SHIT LIKE DAT, THEY HAVE BETTA MONEY THEN YOULL EVER MAKE. THAY LIVE IN THE MIAMI WHERE WE HOT AND READY, WE GOT THE BEST BASKETBALL TEAM IN HISTORY. THEY CD WAS THA BEST BEFORE CHRIS BROWN OR OMARION. THEY BROTHAS AND THAT MAKES THEM FAMOUS!!!!!!!!!!!

And WE don't make sense? How is their money better exactly? Care to elaborate?

they black and we got more money than yall white crusty asses. happy kwanzaa evry one!!!!!!!!!!

so..rather than Talent, Ability, crushing tight rhymes and content that makes you go "aaaaahhh?"

your "god" is the almighty dollar?

i'll take mine, and represent Rage against the Machine, or Public Enemy against all the "pop" goes the weasel bullshit trying to "pass" for being the shit when all it contains is empty hype

knowledge and talent should always be greater than bullshit and hype

nuff said?

Excelsior!

Thats your personal opinion, but i could say that the rock crap that white teens listen to promotes suicide... just listen to Hawthorne Heights Ohio is for lovers. Example:"So cut my wrists and black my eyes,So I can fall asleep tonight, or die." Yeah, thats quality music. Anyway, how is it that some old white man that probably doesn't even listen to rap and r&b is going to comment on it.

Nita you raise some good points

i'll gladly grant you that a lot of what's out there on the airwaves is indeed crap

you see, one the Innovators come and go..the Imitators get signed for the green to cash in and capitalize on unsuspecting young folks

no matter the style or genre, this is a Truth in the business

you want to help fix that...then stay away from the crap, and seek out the real Deal...support Art with yor wallet, and you will get more Art...support empty audio cotton candy, with no substance...and that's what you get..whether you are speaking about Rap, Rock, or Country styles

as for me being able or qualified to "speak on" any of this...let me advise that you don't know me from a can of paint

i was at the Ritz in New York when Public Enemy and Anthrax told us to "Bring the Noise" live on that stage

nuff said?

Excelsior!

Nita, you're at least halfway trying to make a reasonable argument, so I'll give you some credit there. One thing, though, you shouldn't presume too much about what I listen to. I was raised on Johnny Cash and Elvis- but in my father's house there are many mansions. I was going to see Public Enemy and the Digital Underground live before some of y'all were even born.

You perhaps misunderstand me somewhat though with the Hawthorne Heights Ohio thing. I'm not familiar with that specific record, so I can't comment on it. However, I don't put much stock in a lot of these crappy bands. That I don't like crappy r&b doesn't mean that I do like crappy rock.

But that suicide thing misses my point. I'm not stuck on thinking that music has to promote good life values- or I'd be listening to the crappy modern commercial country music that sucks, but mostly does at this point promote good family values. It's just that it isn't good music and makes me want to go get crazy just to get the bland taste out my mouth.

My objection to Pretty Ricky is that it just ain't there for MUSIC lovers. If they had better music, I'd overlook a LOT of nonsense. For comparison, follow the story link out on Snoop to see my recent write-up on one of his albums. I had similar objections to the ridiculously over the top woman hating, but some of that record is pretty good. Make GOOD MUSIC, and I'll give you full credit.

i dont belive wa im readin how can u say that bout pretty ricky..? dey jus a new boy band jus cuz u dont like it dont mean no1 else will i personally think itz really good n i enjoy listenin 2 it no means to say that every1 else will but still w.e

Sorry, I can't pass on my kudos. While I'm sure your review is spot-on, it comes off as just another calculated, cheap stunt to draw attention to yourself like the post about "Imagine" coinciding with the anniversary of Lennon's death. Why else go into the Pretty Ricky thread, taunt the kids and provide them a link?

You're a good writer, but the stench of manipulation from this post is overwhelming.

FUCK EVERY BODY WHO THINK THAT ALBUM IS BAD YALL JUST HATIN

Ciara, I apologize for my ignorance, not being from the street and all- but what would be the difference between a "Pimpette" and a plain old prostitute?

LOOK AL...... PIMPETTE AND PROSTITUTE ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFRENT THINGS PROSTITUTE MEANS TO SELL YOUR BODY AND I MOST DEFFINATELY DONT DO THAT AND PIMPETTE MEANS YOU ARE A FEMALE PIMP A PIMP IS A MALE WHO HAS EVERY WOMAN WANTING HIM................ PIMPETTE IS HAVING EVERY MAN WANTING TO GO WITH YOU AND THATS WHAT I HAVE.... IM A PIMPETTE

AND IM NOT FROM THE STREET I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN THE GHETTO..........THE DIRTY SOUTH

Alright, Ciara. I'm just trying to understand the "Pimpette" thing. I would usually understand the word "pimp" to be a man who markets the services of prostitutes. I was trying to figure backwards from that to suss out your meaning. You're putting a different meaning to the word pimp than I'm used to.

OK, then. What would be the difference then between a "pimpette" and simply a hot chick, or is that just another way of saying the same thing?

I got to tell you guys. There are some great things about living in Israel. There is the kafé hafúkh, falafel, fresh, delicious halvah, great Italian restaurants, pretty girls, shwarma AND... on Kol Yisraél, Galei Tzáhal, and Gal Galátz, the three big radio stations here, I do NOT have to listen to this crappy "music" put out by idiots to pump cash out of ten year old girls.

In addition, as bad as the Hilonim may be here, they are much more decent than the pimpettes and other illiterates who can't even spell, much less put a single sentence together without cuss words thrown in.

Good job, Al. You did a good job tossin' the ninja stars around.

Al you are asking to many questions but the slight deffrince between pimpette and hot chick is pimpette means that the female has the guys tryna get with her hot chick is basicaly the guy tryna get wit the girl because she is popular or would make him look good is that a good enough
explanation for ya Al

al my sister (ciara) said that you are asking her way to many questions and that it is getting annoying

Ah, Mis-Teeq, so Miss Ciara is YOUR sister. No disrespect intended for sis, but I was struck by her pseudonym. She has graciously answered my question, and explained the name.

Thank you, Miss Ciara.

And Mis-Teeq, welcome to the Al's Pretty Ricky discussion.

That's actually a quite insightful distinction - I guess young women ought rather aspire to be pimpettes than hot chicks, since they would hold the controlling reins, as it were. Of course, they could aspire to be Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, or Christine Whitman.

What's the singular of Hilonim? Hilon? Sounds like me, anyways, and no apologies.

FIRST OF ALL PRETTY RICKY BLUESTARS IS NOT THE WORST CD SO PLEASE GET THAT SHIT STRAIGHT. THANK YOU

(COP SIRENS N BACKGROUND)
STILL WAITIN, N.Y.P.D DON'T TAKE THIS LONG.
WAT^ CIARA & FRIENDS.

I think the Worst CD ever was Tubular Bells

wat's good ciara BKA pimpette,4get that nigga trey
he ain't good enuff 4 u.

i have everything u need and more..........

YO ANTHONY,WHO DA HELL U THINK U HOLLARIN AT?
CIARA IZ MY GURL,GO HOOK ^ WIT HALEY OR DAT
STALKIN AZZ BITCH,NOT MY GURL.I DON'T NEED X-TRA HEAT,SO FALLBACK.

X-CUZE ME AL,NO DISRESPECT,BUT CAN STOP HARRASSIN
MY GURL,IT BE MOST APPRECIATED.THANKS.

I thought u was locked ^,it don't matter,cuz i'm still gonna holla at ur gurl.


brooklyn dawg,get at me.

A digression into young romance...

4 DA LAST TIME,U AIN'T GOIN OUT WIT MY GURL.
SHE ALREADY GOT EVRYTHNG SHE NEED + MORE...
AND STOP TRYNA B LIKE ME.

I don't want her anyway,I juss wanted to beat that
azz.she probably ugly,everybody on this blog is
probably ugly.fuck this shit corny shit,Im out.

brooklyn's original gangsta

Anthony, you know the Sopranos don't like young parvenus claiming notoriety

DA ONLY UGLY MUTHAFUCKER ON DIS BLOG IZ U,DATS WHY
U AIN'T GOT NO 1 N UR LONELY LIFE FAGAT ASS QUEER.
AND U AIN'T NO GANGSTA,U A HOMO.

BROOKLYN'S REAL GANGSTA

Isn't that a personal attack?

LMAO...Aaman, you're a Master

thanks, ..:::bows, hand over fist:::..

Namaste'

Excelsior!

THAT AIN'T NO PERSONAL ATTACK,THATS A PERSONAL COMMENT.

[Trey: You and Anthony have the same IP address, which probably means you're one and the same person. Arguing with yourself to try and impress people? Now that's sad. Comments Editor]

sorry to break the news Trey, but insulting folks IS a "personal attack"

the Policy here is to attack Opinions or positions taken, to discuss things from all sides

Trey sez...
*UR LONELY LIFE FAGAT ASS QUEER.*

not only is that poorly spelled, but it IS an attack

if you mouse over the words "comment policy" in red above the comment field, you will find the Rules for the site

i might suggest reading them if you desire to hang around and let your Voice be heard

just a thought

Excelsior!

TREY:
NOBDY ASKED U,BUT OFCOURSE,THERES ALWAYS A BLOG
GEEK.AND IF U WERE ANY SMARTER,U WOULD CONSIDER 2
THINK THAT SLANG IZ'NT ALWAYS SPELLED RITE
(LIK NOW).
SHANIQUA:
WHY IZ U ALL ^ N DA FLAVA,UR FEENIN.THIS IZ SHIT GET STARTED,SOME WIXE AZZ NERD ALWAYZ GOTTA
RUN HIS/HER TRAP AT DA WRONG TIME.
NI-NI:
GONZO MARX,U NEED 2 SPEAK WHEN SPOKEN 2.
NOBDY ASK 4 CORRECTIONS,SO DON'T SHARE DEM,BUT SINCE I CAN'T TELL U WHAT 2 DO,DO ME A FAVOR AND
DO WHAT I TELL U 2 DO.

Tell us why you like the album, if you do - is it because everyone else likes it, or does it appeal to you somehow. Also, did you download it legally?

ummm...not only no

but fuck no

how's that for you?

what you need to do, is turn off your caps lock, and attempt to deal with the Issues raises

but that is beyond what you seem willing to attempt

as for "geek" and so on...realize that you folks don't know shit about me, as i don't know shit about you

all we have are words on a screen for proper communication of our Thoughts and to represent the Time spent in the attempt at communication

your Choice as to how you present yourself, what you say...and to some extent, how you are perceived

you want your Opinions to be taken seriously?

then present them

you want to look the Fool trying to "front" on a blog?

i can enjoy the Laugh

nuff said?

Excelsior!

DON'T GET MAD,IT'S ONLY WORDS.BUT WHAT U NEED 2
GET MAD AT IZ THAT U CAN'T HANDLE MY GHETTO,GANGSTA PERSONALITY,BUT JUST DON'T SAY NUTHIN 2 ME CUZ I WON'T SAY NUTHIN 2 U.I DON'T
FEEL LIK HEADBUTTIN WIT(LET ME KEEP MY COMMENT
2 MYSELF).

EXCELSIOR!?

This.

Will.

Be.

One.

Fucking.

Hilarious.

Thread.

Sir, large popcorn, and a box of Sour Patch Kids, please.

well Trey, about this "gangsta" bit

i'm from the Jersey Shore myself...representing Asbury Park, a "playah" from back in the crack wars of the 80's...got my Respect from all the street, including the 5 percenters who called me "Viking"

so spare me the wanna be little kid shit about "gangsta" cuz my graveyeard is bigger than your 'hood

sho, how about you try not telling folks what to do, you want to express yourself..go for it

but you will go a lot farther if you look at the Topic of the Thread, and state your case for your Position...one way or the other

oh yes, me?...get mad? not hardly, i'm still playing, and being quite nice about it since you all are just kids that don't know any better

so how about we try and discuss what the Thread is about?

i am gathering that you don't agree with big Al about this CD...

so tell us why you think the disk is good, rather than doing the juvvy wanna be bullshit, and we can discuss it on the merits of the material itself

you down with that or scared to do the dozens in the mental Arena on the subject of Music?

(somebody get Suss some munchies, while i school the kiddies)

Excelsior!

Suss, glad to see you hanging out, cuz we're definitely needing all the adult supervision we can get- thank God for Aaman and Gonzo.

yall white nerds need to do sumthang else than bother us teens. WHO THA HELL CARES WHERE U COME FROM. PRETTY'S RICKY ALBUM IS FULL OF GANGSTA LOVIN SONGS LIKE U KNOW. YALL KEEP LISTENING TO YALL HILARY DUFF AND ELVIS SHIT OK. YALL ADULTS NEED TO DO SUMTHANG LIKE GET A JOBBB!

IT ALL BOUT THE 305 MIAMI DADE COUNTY SHIT IN HERE. STOP HATIN ON PR' CUZ THEY FAMOUS KNOW AND NOT U.

*305*

Oh, you such a silly Pooh Bear. Bother u teens? U B IN MY HOUSE HERE, G.

While we be at it, duz u has n-e arguments for why this Pretty Ricky be actual muzic, rather than the incompetent hackwork that I'm hearing?

I think the point gonzo and Aaman are hinting at is that this isn't a chatroom. You guys are welcome to say anything you want here, about the article, or what others say about the article.

It's not supposed to be a place to just hang out forever chatting with your friends about this and that and trying to woo the babes and threatening each other beacause they move in on your personal chat.

Why not use a realtime chatroom for that? Or a site about Pretty Ricky or B5 or whoever we're talking about here? Because this site really isn't designed to be a chatroom; it's more of a bulletin board, in a sense.

You guys would get more out of it, we wouldn't have our forum taken over by "chats", and we all win. You can still post all you want about the post.

I mean, that sounds reasonable doesn't it?

well now, nobody is "hatin" on PR...what is going on is a discussion as to the merits of the album as a musical treatise

unfortunately, so far, none of the folks who seem to enjoy the CD have been able or willing to discuss WHY they like it

whereas big Al has clearly stated the reasoning behind his Opinion of it being poor "music" and bad Rap

that help frame the Debate for you?

now, why not try and explain your reasons for liking this CD and see if you can change some minds by sharing the Knowledge

me...i'm more of a Fishbone, 24/7 spyz, Bad Brains and Body Count type

so, tell me why you think this CD is good, or is it just about liking the look and not about hearing a hook?

Excelsior!

First of all let me say that need to stop hating on Pretty ricky at least they came out with a good album then any of yall' could ever make!

again...no one is "hatin" on them...none of us know them, or even care about them personally

it's the Quality, or lack therof, on the CD we are talking about

if you think it is a good collection of songs....why do you think so?

i think it's bad because the attempt at rhymes are shoddy at best, the beats are cardboard cut outs with no fire in them...lazy at best...simplistic and lacking real drive

the performance has all the personality of a dial tone, and the "wanna be hard", bullshit is wearing thin coming from suburban kids with no Knowledge

now all that would be fine if the rhymes were tight and the beats bumped bigtime..i could even cut slack if there was decent message or content held in the lyrics...instead it's the same old re-tread...Imitators instead of Innovators

my own Opinion is that this album is to Rap what Britney Spears is to...well, any kind of music

so tell me why this shouldn't be tossed into the "pop" goes the weasel kiddie bin?

Excelsior!

The whole cd is good plus it's basically for girls. Not for 40 and 50 year-olds! And the hooks and the beats are great and they don't sound the same either. Critics, well haters like yall' need to be QUIET! Or in other words HUSH!

Miss Ashley, I challenge your statment that the album is "not for 40 and 50 year-olds." Good music is for EVERYONE. The Miracles, for example, were making r&b boy group music for teenage girls before I was born- yet many old 40 and 50 and plus year old men and women are still listening to those records.

The only reason that Pretty Ricky is not for 40 year olds is that we know that this stuff is crap for music.

Again, I'm not a hater, I'm a lover. I LOVE good music. Which is why I take a dim view of Pretty Ricky.

I think the album is good because they have some songs on there for women and some for men. And they ain't tryin to be hard Thank You! And if you don't care about them then why you wasting your time hatin' on them? Don't you got better things to do?

What pre-pubescent teens don't understand -- and probably won't understand the concept until pubic hair starts growing in -- is that just because we don't like a CD doesn't mean we hate anyone, even the artists.

In fact I feel sorry for these tiny performers, because they're corporate pawns.

So anyone whose shift button is stuck down doesn't realize that we -- the adults -- engage in thoughtful conversation rather than take cheap shots at each other, because once you start throwing the insults around like throwin' stars, you waive your right to be made fun of. If you're looking to cause ruckus, get yourself a copy of MIRC and leave us alone.

There are so many people who disagree on so many things: music, TV, sports, politics, yet they don't hate each other. Or hate on each other. Or hate next to each other. Or adjacent to each other. In fact they actually probably get along with each other better. Because we're mature.

So respect everyone here.

Al "1.2 Percent" Barger may be a little out there, he may have sucked on my fiancee's arm, but I nor any other editor will stand for racial potshots.

Got it?

And who the fuck stole my Sour Patch Kids?

When/how did he suck on her arm?

that was almost a coherent Critique of the CD, at least you gave your Opinion that you liked the simplistic beats, and that you find the pedophilic lyrics enjoyable

fair enough

but take a look at the name of the website...

note the word "critics"

the sharing of Opinions, and the discussion of things on their Merits, are what folks do around here

so, if you are going to step up...speak up

but trying to shut folks up just ain't happening

nuff said?

Excelsior!

..:::waves the big bag of Sour Patch kids:::..

looking for these Suss?

i too am interesting in hearing the Story about arm sucking...in that creepy, can't look away from the car wreck , kind of way

nicely done on the explanatory Comment

/golfclap

Excelsior!

Kids, when Sussman teaches class, there's a lesson to be learned. It's like some folks mama's ain't raised them right, and we have to go through all this stuff about basic civil discourse before we can even TRY to discuss MUSIC, which is what I'm all about here.

Jasmine, my point isn't to hate on Pretty Ricky, but to show love for the young folks what are being taken in by their crappy excuse for music. I doubt members of Pretty Ricky will ever read this humble criticism, or that they would care what I think.

Rather, my best hope is that my comparisons and explanations inspire maybe a couple of you to check out some real music, because it will enrich your life in ways that Pretty Ricky will not.

As to Sussman's fiancee, I was not sucking her arm, I was chewing. I sprinkled salt on her arm, and gnawed at it a bit to demonstrate to our Dear Leader's 4 year old how I eat little children for breakfast.

For the record, Cruella's arm is quite tasty.

yall stupid just erase dis stank shit and get it ova wit. damn.pretty ricky's music is basically for teen girls no one else. they from miami so there part of a star studded city. we have TRINA,TRICK DADDY,DADDY YANKEE,SHAQ, DWAYNE WADE AND MUCH MORE TO NAME A FEW BUDDY!!!!!

*305*

so i am to gather that comment #69 is saying is that it's all about local pride for little girls rather than any craft, style or talent in the musical content of the CD?

sounds like a decent and accurate assessment made by the Commentor

yet it still does nto disqualify it as being one of the worst CDs for the year

Excelsior!

I speculate the 305 refers to an area code and is some way of signalling proximity, thereby eliminating a cross-section of geographically distant potential mates.

Very interesting - one rarely sees so much information encoded into such few bits. In fact, it could also be the area code for the band, and thus two layers of information - affiliation to the band, and geographical proximity can be encoded, with an outsider unable to discern the true intent.

Apparently 305 is an area code in Florida

You could never inspire me to do nothing except for being a critic which I personally would never be! And if this ain't real music then what is.

I wouldn't take pride in having the second best basketball team in the east. Don't they have to get through Motown, lyrically and literally?

And didn't the 'Canes fall to THE Ohio State University in the '03 Fiesta Bowl, featuring the best damn band in the land?

While we on Pretty R1cky I wanna give a shout-out to Pleasure! Happy Birthday! Oh and if yall' think Pretty Ricky is the worst album of the year then yall' is "The worst Critics of the Year".

Well, this is a much better review than the one I wrote. Kudos, Al.

Thank you Sterfish. You did pretty good, too. I think maybe you just tried a little too hard to be nice.

Well, Al, Gonzo, Aaman, Matt, uao....

I'm a Brooklyn boy myself, and I've been reading what's coming out of there now. Boy, the place has gone to the downhill...

You can't go home again - nope, you can't, no matter how hard you try.

Oh yeah, Godoggo: the singular of Hiloním is Hiloní. Don't apologize - just don't bring it to Israel.

Al:
I read your article and I have to say that you pose a few good points. I'm glad that you admitted that you were a 43 year old white male and even said "what do I know about what makes a good r&b boy band?" I think that was very humble of you.

I have to say though, I am neutral to what you brought out in your statements. I am a fan of Pretty Ricky although I think that some of thier songs can be offensive. (then why tha heck do I listen to them? i dont know!) I even think that music is deteriorating as I write this message. BUT I think that it's wrong for you to attack a boy band.

I mean, do you really have that much time in the world to listen to a group of 17 year olds sing about sex and then write about how bad of group you think they are? Are you really trying to pull that cheap stunt to draw attention to yourself and create a link for the angry teens to go to? (I hate to feed your ego and reply to what you wrote, but I just couldnt help myself). I think you should just let them be a bad group. (since you think that way). Why does that bother you so much? Why waste your time and get your blood pressure all up just because you dont like a boy band?

I also think that these statements you made: "yunguns who might give you a good cussin" and "I ain't feeling all that especially brave, though. I ain't scared of some herd of illiterate teenagers. What are they going to do, street slang me to death?" were wrong. I am highly offended! I mean, after reading an article that was so well written and argued, I would think you were a much better person than that. Obviously im wrong.

I'm telling you, I'm sevenTEEN years old. And just because I have that "teen" on the end of my age doesn't mean I'm illiterate. Obviously the teens who read your article arent illiterate either if they were able to read your messages and thoughts. Do you feel that I'm "street slanging" you to death? I dont think so. And is that a racist statement? That all these Black teens are just going to "street slang" you until you die? Hmmm... I wonder...

Anyway, I'm glad that you felt (I dont want to say brave, but i will) brave enough to put something like this on the internet and then face the replies people sent you because youre right, it is only so much "illiterate teenagers" can do. We cant do anything to you that will hurt you. All we can do is write to you. I just think that you should've handled the way you worded how you felt differently.

Another thing, I do have to disagree with what you said about good music being for everybody because different music attracts different people. For instance, I like r and b, hip hop, alternative, and country music. I can pretty much listen to anything except for heavy metal. My father, on the other hand (who is like 50 something) HATES almost EVERYTHING I listen to. What I listen to may not be considered good music to him. He likes jazz and oldies. Jazz and oldies may not be "for me". Jazz and oldies may be considered "good music" to my father, but I dont like it all that much. R and b, hip hop, alternative and the other types of music I choose to listen to is considered "good music" to me, but not for my father, you see what I mean?

I understand what you said when you said that you love music and thats why you're saying that you have a dim view of Pretty Ricky because they're a crappy excuse for music. But essentially, is that really your decision to make? They're out now. They're performing songs at concerts and making money. What can you do? AND how can you even say that theyre a crappy excuse for music when you even admitted yourself that you didnt even know what makes a good boy band!?

A lot of the things you said on this blog is really offensive. You may not care, but, I'm still putting my feelings out there because I can. When I read your article I thought you were smarter than some of the replies that you wrote to other peoples comments. I was really suprised. Obviously, I was wrong about my preconcieved thoughts of you. I honestly don't know you and I shouldnt have thought a certain way about you just because of how you wrote the article. I was wrong there. But coming from a writer, next time I think you should think before replying to what people write to you. And really, you shouldnt categorize a certain group of people based on age. *(and i learned that i shouldnt categorize a person based on how well they write or argue a point)* ; )

Thanks for reading my LOOOOONG reply...if you do. (heck, if anybody does! LOL)

"just don't bring it to Israel."

You got yourself a deal.

anthony,if you dont like me then why was you tyna get wit me you dumb idiot and you have nothin that i need why would i wanna be wit a crack head thats out sellin drugs every day because he cant get a job and i might be a lil to old for you anyway im 16 and how old are you



to my boo Trey) smile for me daddy let me see ya grill,love ya sexy



love Ci-Ci aka peaches and cream bka pimpette

Frankly, I thought the blogcritics policy was to abstain from personal attacks, [CoC0, you have confused the comments policy with the editorial policy. Comments Editor] but couldn't this so-called-review itself be thought of as a personal attack?

Yes, Al Barger does review the record in the beginning of the review, but in the end all he does is unamusingly attack people who actually like this record. And he attacks the way Pretty Ricky's fans may speak and uses the word ghetto in a derogatory fashion.

A review is meant to give a judicial and fair evaluation of a work, it it not supposed to be used as a weapon. Nor is it meant to be a vehicle for hatred and pettiness. Perhaps this reader would be less annoyed if Mr. Barger had simply labeled this as an opinion based upon his narrow views of young modern R&B listeners instead of hiding beneath the subterfuge of a review, but this is not so. As a Black American, I am tired of so-called educated people labeling people as ghetto simply because they use slang. It's white america who created the ghetto and caused the cultures to seperate. It's white americans who then chide and insult and even worse, condescend to black americans about the way they speak if they don't speak with the "perfect" english of their white brethren. What gives you the right to pass judgment over another person's culture? Tell me, would you patronize and chide a French person for speaking with an accent? Would you condescend to an English person for saying "chuffed"? Tell me, do you have a problem with everyone different from you or simply those who you can't instantly tell are different from you?

I'm ashamed of you Mr. Barger and I'm ashamed of Blogcritics (the so-called superior institution of bloggers) for allowing this racial invective to even be considered a review. Why should anyone take this site seriously or this reviewer seriously, if hurtful trash such as this is allowed to appear on the site?

Coco, I can understand your concern. But a personal attack is when an individual attacks another individual, or a finite set of individuals in which each person is clearly described.

This did not happen in the review.

Secondly, I don't think see anything that could be racially offensive. Of course, this is coming from a sheltered WASP from Ohio, so that's open to interpretation and us editors acknowledge that.

There may be stereotyping towards a specific group of people, but by no means is it towards black-skinned Americans.

Blackness and whiteness extends beyond skin pigment in our society. It's a way of life. It's a frame of mind. It's when a white girl wears corn rows and a black girl is the U.S. Secretary of State.

Ghetto talk isn't African-Americans talking. Not every fans of this CD has black skin, nor is there any implication in the review of such.

Thirdly, bringing up the fans is very relevant because ol' Al is interested in this record label selling an explicit message to young impressionable girls.

If it's a misleading stereotype to say that Pretty Ricky fans may respond by "conveniently decide to interpret it that I'm a hata," then just count the number of people who have already responded by saying he's hatin' on said band and said fans.

There's no hate. Al doesn't hate. He made a criticism of our young women and how they respond to anything that remotely smells like negative vibes towards their favorite band -- and moreso towards their favorite band member, such as if someone says they will not marry that band member.

And he has a point, especially after one look at the comments on the B5 and Pretty Ricky CD reviews.

"Review" and "opinion" are closely knit, but reviews dwell on a specific product -- book, movie, TV episode, video game, general product, or in this case, album. And an album extends beyond the liner notes and the oval disc in the jewel case. It's a review of how that album has impacted our lives, our society, and our pop culture.

It would be irresponsible as a reviewer to neglect all aspects of that which lies in his stereo or iPod. And Al reviews many a CD, so he knows what he's doing.

Ah now Brie (comment 78), don't be feeling insulted about the "illiterate teens" thing. That's an "if the shoe fits" deal, there.

Obviously that shoe does not fit YOU specifically. You're bothering to write well, and articulate reasonable thoughts. Clearly you're not part of the herd. Talk like a serious human being in a courteous manner as you have, and you'll get nothing but respect from me.

Look back, though, on some of that stuff on Sterfish's thread, and comments 11 and 43 here. You can see what I mean. Really, considering the level that some of these people are working on, I think I'm playing pretty nice.

I totally appreciate the thought and effort you put into that reply. You are rising in a commendable manner to my challenge.

I don't know what to say to all of it, but I do have a couple of things to note. I appreciate the consciousness you exhibit in noticing and being offended by the music, even though you like it. Many people lack the will to even try to parse things out like that. If they like something, they just drink the kool-aid, and their hero can do no wrong. Your willingness to think that out is a sign of budding sophistication.

As to good music being for everyone, I stand by that. People don't always WANT to be open to things outside of their comfort zone, or stuff just doesn't speak to them. That's cool.

I consider it one of the big points of aesthetics and critical judgment to try to parse out my judgment from my taste. Is this record really that good objectively, or am I just a really good audience for such a thing? This record that doesn't do anything for me, is that because there's no quality to it, or is it just not my bag?

Again, my best hope for this column would be to encourage more thoughtful young folks such as yourself to expand their musical horizons. For example, how much Marvin Gaye have you listened to?

Thanks again for your thoughtful remarks, and I would be pleased to hear more from you.

CoCo, come off the race stuff with me. You're WAY pushing the point to try to shoehorn that into this review. I absolutely will not be cowed or intimidated by cheap charges of racism.

Also, why would you speak of me passing judgment on other people's culture? I'm an American, and a longtime fan of popular music- country, soul, r&b. It's MY culture too.

You're particularly wrong and backwards in taking it that I supposedly am hating on Pretty Ricky fans. Quite the opposite. Therefore, I hate to see young people wasting their souls on this crappy music when they've got so many other choices. Also, I especially hate to see young girls (black or white or other) being ground down, debased and dehumanized by the likes of Pretty Ricky or 2Live Crew.

CoCo, do you think I'd be showing more love if I just shut up and said nothing while they're being pulled down into the meat grinder of the popular culture? If I goad a couple of these young sisters to put down this nasty Pretty Ricky stuff for a minute and pick up some Smokey, they'll be a little bit better off.

You can thank me later.

Coco, you are not going to like this, but I'm going to tell you this anyway.

When my parents were alive, my father spoke with the accent of an immigrant. Sometimes he would speak English with the singsong that rabbis used (and sometimes still use) in Yiddish to explain points of law. My mother would get mad at him and yell at him, "stop talking like a mockey!"

What was my mother really saying to my father? She was saying, "speak white!" She wanted my father not to talk like a rabbi explaining points of law in Yiddish, but rather like a white Christian American.

Why?

Because America is a white Christian country. That's why. Whether you like it or not, America is a white Christian country. It doesn't matter how fair or unfair they have been to you in the past, it doesn't matter how much they may or may not discriminate against you now.

America is a white Christian country.

If you want to succeed in America, you will have to "speak white." It is part of the formula for success there, just like coping with Christian holidays stuffed down your throat is part of coping with America for Jews.

You have figured that out pretty well from your writing. Until you had mentioned that you were a black-American, I would never have suspected that you were from one race or another. This is not a patronizing slap on the back. It's not that "you write well for a black person" - you write very well, and very articulately. Period.

So it is not impossible. And that is what you need to tell your brothers and sisters. They need to learn to "speak white," just as my father did, just as my mother did, just as I did.

You make good points about whites patronizing blacks in your country, though I don't think Al Barger was doing that at all. But that is merely my opinion.

However, there is another possibility to consider. Marcus Garvey was the 20th (Christian) century leader of the return to Africa movement. Look at it this way. Why should you deal with "superior," condescending, overbearing white people when you can take the skills, technology and money you have gained here and return "home" so to speak, and build it up. The problems would be daunting - "but if you will it, it is no dream" (Theodre Herzl, the founder of the World Zionist Movement).

Do note, Coco, I'm not writing from Washingon, Chicago, or New York. I'm not some cracker white trash hollering "nigger go home!" - I'm writing from Jerusalem, the eternal capital of the Jewish people. I'm not telling you to do something I wouldn't do. It is something I have done.

Whatever issues of "peace" or war you may have concerning this region, the undeniable fact is that we in Israel have taken a desert and made it bloom, we have brought home 5½ million people and made a country here, with a first class health system, an excellent transportation system and the ability, should we so desire, to cut ourselves off from the world economy and go it alone.

And here, any Jew can talk in the singsong my father did, making jokes or explaining law - or both. And nobody - but nobody - will tell them to "stop talking like a mockey."

Just thought I'd show my face to compensate for all the ugly in here. Carry on.

/It's a diry job, but someone's got to do it

I'm ashamed of Blogcritics (the so-called superior institution of bloggers

Actually, it isn't "superior institution", it's "sinister cabal" which means something entirely different.

But I think CoCo's right about this maybe deserving an "Opinion" banner. But some articles are hard to classify.

Ruv sez:

What was my mother really saying to my father? She was saying, "speak white!" She wanted my father not to talk like a rabbi explaining points of law in Yiddish, but rather like a white Christian American.

Why?

Because America is a white Christian country. That's why. Whether you like it or not, America is a white Christian country.

This is nonsense. The reason why people should learn to speak is not because we are white Christians. Japanese who can't speak proper Japanese aren't offered many jobs in Japan either, and the same goes for any country with a predominant language.

Immigrants to America should make an effort to speak English as well as they can. If they can't learn the language, fine; not everyone is good with languages and as long as you at least made an effort, people will overlook language deficiencies. So accents are fine, nobody cares.

But willful disregard of our common language, and a refusal to understand how words are used to communicate in a multi-cultural society that needs a lingua franca like English only puts those persons at a disadvantage when they have to compete for jobs in this society.

People can speak in dialect; people can use slang; people can intentionally misuse grammar-- all of that is covered by artistic license, which applies to speakers. But one should be aware of how they are misusing grammar and vocabulary; only with that knowledge can your words have power.

But most people don't have respect for people who seem disinclined to make an effort to learn their own native language (English), to which they were born. It's taught at school, after all.

Might there be some racism in the hearts of those who reject persons who speak a certain way? Probably, in some cases. But often, it is just practicality; higher paying jobs, requiring communication, require language skills.

It's economics, not religion.

And you seem a tad patronizing in complimenting CoCo's writing skills, even using "articulate" the word whites always use about a well spoken black.

Then, you suggest she go back to Africa.

And then you get on about Jerusalem being the "eternal" capital, and how Israel makes the desert bloom.

How well have those Jews from Ethipoia and Russia been integrating into Israel's society? Pity about that language thing.

Not quite sure what you're on about. Are you in the right thread?

I can only speak from my own perspective. It would have been nice if it had been all about economics, but it isn't. My dad, the one who spoke like an immigrant - because he was one - was the one putting the money on the table. And he did a good job putting it on the table. There was also the tremendous drive to integrate into American life.

And American Jews have been crucified on the cross of their efforts. But here I digress.

What I saw in St. Paul in the public school my kids went to 30 years later was a rejection of the idea of integrating into American society by American blacks, and the converse drive to do so by Hmong and Somali kids. You can see the results of this rejection of standard English - white English - as whites are the majority in your nation - in some of the posts about 40 or so back.

If you really want to see it, you can look at the other articles on this boy band.

If a Japanese kid refuses to speak standard Japanese, he will not succeed in Japan. But Japan is a far more homogenized country than America ever will be. And I bust my butt to make sure my Hebrew is up to snuff, because the bottom line is that without it, it can be real rough making it HERE. And you hear Hebrew spoken with Ethiopian, Russian, Farsi, French, Spanish, Romanian and American accents in Israel. The kids learn to speak the lingo and the parents struggle. This is true for every immigrant group here.

But American blacks are not an immigrant group. They were brought to America against their own will and made to work for nothing and suffer humiliation for two centuries or more at the hands of the whites.

My point to Coco in mentioning Marcus Garvey is to point out that there is no reason that blacks should tolerate American racism. They have the opportunity to create their own "Israel," if you will. Two African nations, Liberia and Sierra Leone, exist by the efforts of freed slaves. It would be difficult, but an attempt to go back en masse, bringing the benefits of American technology and education to bear on these nations can be made - and those blacks who do, do not have to write, as does Coco, "It's white america who created the ghetto and caused the cultures to seperate. It's white americans who then chide and insult and even worse, condescend to black americans about the way they speak if they don't speak with the 'perfect' english of their white brethren. What gives you the right to pass judgment over another person's culture?"

In their own nation, built by their own hands, they can enjoy their own culture and not give a tinker's dam about what you or I or Al Barger think. And if Pretty Ricky is what the children of THAT country like, who are you or I to care or comment?

"Whoa, baby, I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand"

Now there's some nice music for teen girls.

But American blacks are not an immigrant group. They were brought to America against their own will and made to work for nothing and suffer humiliation for two centuries or more at the hands of the whites.

Every black person in America was born in America. Their great-grandparents were born in America in most cases.

Not including immigrants from places like Nigeria, Senegal, and other African countries, who came here for economic opportunity, not as slaves.

I'm not sure who you're talking about. You're using your father, an immigrant, to make a point about how black people, who are multi-generational native Americans, speak English.

It's your analogy that doesn't work.

I'm aware of slavery, and although my ancestors didn't come to the U.S. until the 1890's, I apologize nonetheless. Slavery is a terrible thing, I wish it never happened.

That said, if you are born in this country, you have an intrisic reason to learn its language. As I mentioned in the last post, it's for economic reasons, not religious or racial. If you want a good job, and you want to make money, you need to know how to communicate effectively with many people.

Or, maybe you can get lucky like Pretty Ricky or B5. But kids, uncle uao is tellin' you straight: most people don't get so lucky. And even their luck is probably going to run out in a year or two.

You do digress when you say 'American Jews have been crucified for their efforts'; I'm not sure what that means or how it's germaine.

You mention how you bust your butt to learn Hebrew to make it in Israel; and how it is hard to make it without the language. So we agree: language is important, and not just for "religious" or "white" reasons.

That was the main point I was objecting to.

As for Liberia and Sierra Leone, I wouldn't wish my worst enemy wander into the middle of those brutal civil wars. Hardly examples of success, and Africa is a foreign continent to American blacks; you yourself know how difficult living in a foreign country is, and all the cultural baggage that goes along with that.

Of course people (of any color, creed, race) don't have to "tolerate racism" I don't think many black people do tolerate it.

But to make this country better, which is native to whites and blacks (and a hundred other shades) is going to require us working together right here.

This is a nation we build with our hands; it's not designed to be built on race or religion. And it won't be anyway; by 2050 whites will be 50% of the population. Good English skills will be even more necessary in the supermulticultural America our grandkids will inherit.

It's a self-respect issue too, I'd think. You do know service to black people suggesting to them it's "white" to be educated and erudite and capable with English. Educated is educated; white or black.

I just think we've gone on a very strange tangent here.

Language is a terrible thing, as India has discovered. In the 1950s/1960s, states were reorganized along linguistic lines to support demands from regional groups. This has not worked very well, and caused much oddness.

The definition of a nation is a grouping with a common language and culture

MY BROTHERS CD AINT THE WORST TRUST ME YALL SHOULD HEAR D4L'S CD IT SUCKS THE ONLY GOOD SONG ON IT IS LAFFY TAFFY

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MARCUS I HOPE U HAVE AS GOOD DAY. AND DONT LET YO BROTHAS SPOIL IT.

Gosh, I was just about to bring up Liberia for the purpose of a smart-ass remark, but I see our friend did it for me.

AL:
As far as the good music thing, i still disagree with you. Pretty Ricky is just not your bag. YOU think that the album has no quality to it...obviously, the angry people who replied to your article do not think so. These are true fans of Pretty Ricky who support them, etc, etc. They feel the album does have quality.

As far as expanding your musical horizon, you must not have read my whole reply. I said that I can listen to all types of music (which I do, some are just not my cup of tea, like heavy metal. Now just because I do not like heavy metal doesn't mean I'm going to label it as crappy, or not quality music because it obviouly appeals to other listeners who may feel that it is quality). So as far as Marvin Gaye goes, I have listened to almost every song he sang. I love Marvin! And I have expanded my musical horizon. And I try to do that more and more every day. (And what the heck is your obsession with Marvin Gaye?)

PS: the illiterate teens thing, I still find offensive. Comments 11 and 43 are not illiterate. They can read what you wrote which disregards them being illiterate. You must have a different definition of illiterate, am I right? Try ignorant. I think that what they said was ignorant because they didn't back up what they said with facts. BUT I do feel that they're a passionate group of people who are advocates of Pretty Ricky. I'm not against them...just indifferent.

pss: are you a cannibal?

Ruvy in Jerusalem:
How do you "speak white"? What does that mean?

Frankly, anyone from St. Paul, including the Swedes, sounds like an immigrant to me. But so do people from Amarillo, Savannah, Saginaw, and Bayonne, or Van Nuys.

I've known some foreign accents I've been quite fond of in my life, too...

How's that shoulder godoggo?

Illiterate may be a stretch, but anyone who discusses music in such a tone is casting a shadow over themselves as one who chooses not to partake in intelligent discourse.

So if it's literate, then literate is not synonymous with intelligent.

Brie,

"Speaking white" is a hard thing to describe. It's a term I use very rarely, and think about rarely. The best I can do for you is to tell you to find a newsreader from the BBC and listen to the news from the UK for a while. Another is to listen to Reuven David Miller on the Kol Israel English news. It doesn't do the job, but it gets you part way there. The examples that would be of most help to you in understanding what "speaking white" is all about are all dead or retired.

Sorry that I can't articulate the idea better.

Aaman wrote, "Language is a terrible thing..."

You are so right. It would be better if we could project our thoughts telepathically. Communication would be clear. Heck, even Pretty Ricky might seem pretty. But it would kill the blog site...

Dr. J. says he's confident the shoulder should heal this time around. He didn't look or sound real confident, but I actually found that kind of refreshing.

Ruvy:

No, you didn't articulate it well at all, I concur. CoCo was more articulate, in the sense that articulate means 'conveys meaning'.

There are 400 million speakers of English as a first language, located in a myriad of countries, worldwide. They got there by various circumstance, but there they are. They have to agree on a communication standard.

NOTE: Not all of them are white. Or Christian. Or American. Or even in "the West".

They are joined by about another 600 million who speak English as a second language, many of who do not live in a predominantly English speaking country, but many of whom who do.

They study the same English anyone else does; a TOEFL English proficiency test for foreigners looks very much like an SAT test.

That is the language we speak. Bring to it any accent, keep your coloqialisms, lord knows a lot of gentiles use Yiddish colloquialisms, after picking them up from their neighbor.

There is no defensible answer to 'what does "talk white" mean?'. Do you mean black Americans need to speak like BBC announcers?

wot rot, luv.

Even Hebrew has grammatical rules, which you are struggling right now to learn, and wouldn't have to struggle with if you had been born there and went to school every day like a good kid.

Our language, "English", same.

What color is the Hebrew you're learning? Because Hebrew speakers are also a rainbow of colors.

It would be better if we could project our thoughts telepathically.

You are wrong again; that would be like if we could just eat meals in pill-form. Language is part of the spice and flavor of life; where would a person be without the sheer joy of using language?

Dullsville, probably. And probably with a dead end job.

godoggo, you're in my New Year's thoughts...

and have a happy, better one ;-)

Well Ruvy,
First of all, your definition of "speaking white" sucks because I'm still confused. It sounds like you dont even know what it means. I think you are just undeducated about how to succeed in the world. You do not have to be able to "speak white". You just have to know basic skills. You can speak ignorant as all get out, but if you know how to cut some hair, you can be a barber. You can think that the sky is purple, but if you can press and curl some hair, you can be a cosmotologist. You can think that hair is made of straw, but if you have the skills to be an electrician, you can do it. People who hire others for jobs look at your basic skills not at how you speak. They're not looking for if you know how to speak white.

While you're telling me to watch BBC or whatever, I think you should watch all 7 of Roots. Then, come holla at me.

You have some legitimate point there about job skills buying you some slack, Miss Brie. However, communication and people skills are a big part of most jobs, and increasingly so over time. If someone insists on being obnoxious and aggressive with the street slang, it WILL hold them back.

There are lots of plumbers that can come fix your sink, and if somebody insists on talking hostile, ignorant street slang, most folks will just go on down the block. Certainly, you can't expect that a professional outfit will hire you to work for them purposely acting all stupid.

But why would you WANT to do that? What is it that you would think you were gaining by purposely acting hostile and putting people off?

That kind of foolishness certainly doesn't seem to be YOUR style, judging from what you're writing here, so why would you think that this would be the thing to do? It's just absolutely self-sabotage, and nothing more.

Also Brie, regarding Marvin Gaye (comment 96): I'm not particularly obsessed with Marvin, but I'm pushing him specifically as an alternative to Pretty Ricky. Just as a simple starting point of contrast to Pretty Ricky, I'm using Smokey and the Miracles as an example of a better "boy group," and Marvin Gaye as an example of a better "loverman" type.

This simplistic equation does neither artist justice, but it's my idea of a starting gate to point young folks in the direction of better music.

I don't claim much knowledge about the authors of comments 11 and 43. #43 dude COULD be a 50 year old Chinese guy with two PhDs- but that seems real unlikely, cause he's talking like an illiterate idiot. If he's not stupid and is acting like this on purpose, then he's even more stupid than he looks at first glance cause he should know better.

If you insist on ACTING like an illiterate idiot, then you have NO justification for being mad when people treat you like one.

Also, I do not disagree with you that the Pretty Ricky advocates really like their music. I'm just saying that they're really, seriously wrong. They are welcome, and indeed encouraged to try to explain to me what they're seeing that I'm missing.

However, it's going to take something considerably better than "PRETTY IS SEXY AND BETTA LOOKING THEN YO FAMILY AND MOMMA CONBINED. DONT EVA SAY SHIT LIKE DAT, THEY HAVE BETTA MONEY THEN YOULL EVER MAKE." to impress me.

Why is it that I should have any respect for people who comes talking this foolish? He might as well be writing "I'M A HOSTILE FOOL WITHOUT A BRAIN IN MY HEAD. PLEASE DISREGARD ANYTHING I SAY, BECAUSE I'M A WINDOW LICKER." Except that this would be too literate and articulate.

Looks to me like some of these folks are bound and determined to act obnoxious and make people disrespect them, so they can have an excuse to be mad and blame the world for their inevitable failure and misery.

Again, YOU seem pretty sharp. Why would you want to defend such idiocy?

Looks like Ruvy bailed on us here.

But Brie sez:

I think you are just undeducated about how to succeed in the world. You do not have to be able to "speak white". You just have to know basic skills. You can speak ignorant as all get out, but if you know how to cut some hair, you can be a barber. You can think that the sky is purple, but if you can press and curl some hair, you can be a cosmotologist. You can think that hair is made of straw, but if you have the skills to be an electrician, you can do it.

You missed the whole point.

You still need to know how to speak if you want to be a barber, electrician, or cosmetologist.

And being a cosmetologist isn't necessarily "being a success". How much scratch does a cosmetologist make? Set your sights a little higher.

It's not a question of "speaking white"; forget Ruvy's bad choice of words, he was misleading you.

But if I own a brabershop, I'm going to hire a barber who speaks well over a barber who can't speak well. Notice I said "well" not "white". Because the customers prefer it.

Brie also sez:

People who hire others for jobs look at your basic skills not at how you speak. They're not looking for if you know how to speak white.

That's if you want a basic job, like data-entry, janitorial work, taxi driving.

If you want a job that isn't demeaning and low-paying, you can bet your last nickel that people do look very closely at how you speak.

But even crappy dead-end jobs like selling cars, customer service, and telemarketing require good verbal skills.

Almost any skilled job, office position, and executive position requires verbal communication skills (also known as "people" skills).

Without them, you don't get hired. Because you can't do the job without the verbal skills.

It isn't a "white" thing to be educated, and anyone who tells you that is a liar and a racist.

It's a smart thing to be educated.

Besides, if you can speak well, you can convince people of anything. That's a useful skill, too, and not just when you're looking for a job.

"Looks like Ruvy bailed on us here."

Ruvy didn't bail. But there are occasional real life issues that need dealing with that require one's physical presence elsewhere.

Also, it is never a good idea to try to answer a question when you are tired. In an unforgiving world, tiredness is never an excuse for lack of articulateness or clarity.

I looked this up on the internet, just to make sure I had my bearings straight. It is part of the introduction to a poem of the same name found at the above site.

"Speak white, it is the language of the White vis-a-vis the Blacks, of the Colonizers vis-a-vis Colonisés, the capitalists vis-a-vis the workmen..."

The other context on the internet where I saw this term used was in Canada, where the anglophones who once dominated Québec, used this precise term to intimidate and bully the French speakers of the province.

"Speak White" is a nasty term. It implies that the person being told to do so is inferior. It was used extensively in Britain's colonial possessions, of which Québec was at one time.

Now in using it, I do not imply that blacks are inferior to whites - remember I used the term to make clear what my mother was telling my father in criticizing him for speaking, what was in her eyes, sub-standard English.

The point was that in order to gain a measure of acceptance in an English speaking white Christian society, one has to use English that the white Christians would respect.

"DA ONLY UGLY MUTHAFUCKER ON DIS BLOG IZ U,DATS WHY
U AIN'T GOT NO 1 N UR LONELY LIFE FAGAT ASS QUEER.
AND U AIN'T NO GANGSTA,U A HOMO.

BROOKLYN'S REAL GANGSTA"

The above is not such an example.

Maybe Condaleezza Rice might use this language in private. I use her merely as an example. I don't know the woman personally. But even if she did, you would not catch her dead using it on a public forum like this blog site.

You wouldn't catch my kids using this kind of language on a blog-site either, though they might say something like it in private (when I don't hear).

Speaking sub-standard Hebrew might get me what I need at an open air market (a shuk), but it would not get me anywhere if I had to deal with a banker.

In short, "speak white" means "speak English as well as I do, you inferior ......"

So much for answering Brie.

BTW, I did watch all of the seven episodes of the late Alex Haley's "Roots" when it aired originally. In fact, it was watching "Roots" that made me pay attention to Marcus Garvey's "Back to Africa" movement of the 1920's. It sounded so much like the Zionist movement of my own people.

Ruvy, I appreciate that you didn't "bail".

But you're missing the point too, the point I originally found offensive, and you're making the same point again, which offends me all over again:

The point was that in order to gain a measure of acceptance in an English speaking white Christian society, one has to use English that the white Christians would respect.

Once again, this is still nonsense. Why do you insist on making this a religious issue? It isn't.

To gain a measure of success (not the same as acceptance, which you can get without language skills), you need to be an effective communicator. That means learn how to use your native language. Grammar, vocabulary, writing, the whole bit.

This is true in any language in any country; there is nothing unique about the U.S. in this regard. My comparison with Japan was valid.

The U.S. is an English speaking country. English is the lingua franca, it is the language of business, sales, customer service, romance, and whatever else goes on in an English speaking country.

If you're born in America, and want to succeed, you need English. Not because of the white Christian devils, but because that's the language we speak.

"Speak White" is a nasty term. It implies that the person being told to do so is inferior.

That's right. Your mother shouldn't have used it, and neither should you. It's offensive and inaccurate.

I couldn't click your link, but you're still talking about Colonists. Forget the colonists, forget slavery. They have nothing to do with speaking English properly (how many times do we have to go over the same point?)

If your point is that the languages on the world are the languages of conquered people, well that may be true. I could say that for a Palestinian to make it in Israel, he had better "talk Jew".

But that would be offensive and stupid. He had better talk Hebrew.

Maybe Condaleezza Rice might use this language in private.

Why? Do you think all black people talk like gangsta rappers, including those who went to college?

Wrong again. Rice speaks well because she is educated. And the post you guote would not be acceptable to a white Christan, a tan Jew, a black Baptist, or an albino Buddhist. Because it is an offensive message written poorly. Period.

Your telling black people that using our mother tongue is "talking white" is a slap in the face of all educated black (and white) people. And your insinuation that Rice may talk properly when Whitey is out of sight is not only racist, it's crackpot, too.

In short, "speak white" means "speak English as well as I do, you inferior ......"

Notice at no time has anyone here on this thread (or any other thread as far as I have seen at BC this year) have used this expression except you, Ruvy, repeatedly, and you keep on trying to defend it. Dude, I just don't get your point here, except that you don't seem to have any other than Americans are white Christian imperialists, blacks sound ignorant, and Jews make the desert bloom.

It would have been better if you had just bailed.

Anyway, it appears that you must still be tired. Hope you get some rest.

SHUT DA HELL UP...UR MOTHER HAS DA WORST COOKIN' OF DA YEAR....AND I BET THEY WOULD HAVE A BETTER CD THEN U WOULD EVEN IF IT WAS UR BEST CD...

TREY SAID HI CI-CI.HE LUV AND MISS U..HE ALSO SAID
THAT U LOOKED GOOD ON DAT VIDEO AND SO DID MY BOO.

TO PLEASURE:MY BOO IS 21 NOW...GOOD 4 U...I HOPE U HAD A GOOD TIME LIKE U DID ON DA GET UP VIDEO CUZ U LOOK LIKE U WAS HAVIN FUN,LUV U.....

TO SPECTACULAR:I LUV U AND MISS U BOO...U LOOKED SO FINE ON DAT VIDEO...BYE BABY.!.!.

I suspect that message was for Al. My mother makes a pretty decent meal, though I wish she wouldn't be so timid with spices.

I'm sure they do have a better CD than I would make; I'll agree with that.

A culinary insult - that's arch criticism - there's hope yet for American youth!

hi shaniqua tell him I said hi and i love him and miss him and ask him why he hasn't been writing me.......im gettin kinda lonely cause nobodys ever on here when Im on here but just let him know I love him

305 In this bitch

uao, Brie, you asked for a definition, and you got one. You don't like it? You don't have to like it. I stand by my views, and I expect you'll stand by yours.

The quality of the English coming out what once my home town has sadly declined. And, like I said a long ways back, none of the radio stations here play this Little Rickie trash that Al Barger has condemned so rightfully. That is one of the nice things about living here. And now, I'm out of here.

Um,it's Pretty Ricky get it straight! And it ain't trash!

Miss Jasmine, please elucidate on Pretty Ricky. What is it that you're hearing that I'm missing?

AL:
(comment 106)
Did I ever say that I WANTED to act that way? NO!
Its some people who just can't help it. When you look at a lot of older African Americans, some of them do not "speak white" (whatever the heck that means). But, they were able to get a job with the skills they have.

You do make a good point about people skills, etc. But you do not have to "speak white" in order to have good people skills. Some people may not be able to speak proper English, but they can be down to earth and easy to get along with. BUT you are right about people INSISTING on talking hostile, ignorant street slang, and acting stupid. The people who insist on doing that are just stupid. But when you said insisting on speaking hostile, etc, I dont think you understand what I mean. Some people are just uneducated and that's not by choice. Although uneducated, they may still have the proper skills to be a plumber, cosmotologist, electricitan, barber, etc. So its not that they are speaking hostile, its just that they're uneducated, you see what I mean?

AL:
(comment 107)
To be honest, the only reason why I'm backing him/her up is because he/she is my age. I'm a teen. We have to have each others back. If we dont have each others back, who will? Everyone else thinks we teens are crazy and stupid and wild.
ps: are you a cannibal?

UAO:
(comment 108)
Cosmotologists make a great deal of money (which equals success, right?) I pay $50 to get my hair done. Say my beautician does 10 heads per day...thats...$500 in one day. And if she works 5 days a week...thats...$2500 per week. So, for the whole month...thats...$50,000. I think that's a pretty nice paycheck...(maybe its just me).

When you said that if you own a barber shop, you would hire the person who can speak better than the other person. If that was me, I would hire a person who could cut hair better because the way a persons hair looks doesnt depend on how well the barber speaks. It depends on how well they cut hair, you know?

But you are right when you say that some jobs require good verbal skills, especially a sales job. And it is a good, useful skill. I'm just advocating the uneducated ones...the people who are uneducated NOT by choice, you see what I mean? The people who were unable to go to school. Not the people who were able to go to school and didnt take thier education seriously, you know? do ya feel me?

Ruvy:
(comment 110)
I honestly think you are an ignorant person. I think that way because speaking proper English is not "speaking white". Point blank.

Hey Brie I know what you mean (comment107) People are saying that teens are wild and crazy which I really hate. Oh, and Al what I was sayin what I was commenting on what that man Ruvy was sayin' "None of the radio stations here play that Little Rickie trash". I was letting him know that it's Pretty Ricky not Little Rickie and that it wasn't trash. Okay.

Brie, yes, I do feel you, and I do see your point.

You are right, and I am with you.

I just wanted to make sure that Ruvy didn't unwittingly encourage the ones who might not learn by choice.

And my issue wasn't even really with them, I just needed to reply to the words Ruvy was saying, if you feel me. Because I thought they weren't right.

As a disclaimer, in real life I am an English teacher, so I care about this issue.

I also care about careless and wrongful assumptions from any race toward any race, because that just sets us all back when time is running out.

I hope we're cool, I meant nothing disrespectful.

And I hear what you're saying, Ruvy. And you've been a good guy to try to explain it. No harm meant; it just seemed an issue worth hashing out. You've got your point too, I respect that.

Miss Jasmine- Obviously you have a legitimate point that Ruvy got the name of the group wrong. Fair enough.

However, I'm not saying that "teens are wild and crazy." First off, I'm not saying anything in a blanket manner about a group of people, but only specific individuals as it applies.

More specifically though, the charge is not "wild and crazy," which would be endearing. Being enthusiastic and spirited regarding your favorite band is totally cool. I get all militant over the White Stripes, for one.

Some folk, however, particularly in the Sterfish review thread and maybe just one or two here, have gone out of their way to talk dumb, and also to speak in a vulgar and hostile manner. That's not wild and crazy, it's more like dumb and hateful.

Miss Brie- I appreciate some of your sensitivities here, and I apologize if I'm not clear enough in expressing myself. I do not mean to disrespect people who are struggling a bit with the language. I have no desire to harsh on old folks who perhaps haven't had the educational opportunities that others have had. That was not at all my idea.

What I'm talking about is the kind of PURPOSEFUL and AGGRESSIVELY bad speech. A comments thread on a pop music review isn't a job application, so I don't object to speaking informally or using a bit of slang. I do a certain amount of that myself.

But it is something else when someone jumps in TRYING to sound uneducated and hostile. What SHOULD I think when I see stuff like "yall stupid just erase dis stank shit and get it ova wit"? Should I regard this person's opinion as equally valid to mine?

I am going to go grab a cup of coffee, and then just keep hitting refresh. I love this shiznit.

Outstanding, Matt. Glad that we're providing you with good entertainment value.

I, too, am pretty pleased with this thread. For a story about a cheesy boy band, this discussion has so far been mostly fairly thoughtful, particularly compared to some of the other Pretty Ricky threads.

"Whoa, baby, I'm a back door man
The men don't know
But the little girls understand"

Hey, is that a lyric from Du Jour?

Dave

"I have no desire to harsh on old folks who perhaps haven't had the educational opportunities that others have had. That was not at all my idea.

What I'm talking about is the kind of PURPOSEFUL and AGGRESSIVELY bad speech. A comments thread on a pop music review isn't a job application, so I don't object to speaking informally or using a bit of slang. I do a certain amount of that myself.

But it is something else when someone jumps in TRYING to sound uneducated and hostile. What SHOULD I think when I see stuff like "yall stupid just erase dis stank shit and get it ova wit"? Should I regard this person's opinion as equally valid to mine?"

Al said it very well.

When I lived in St. Paul working with an anti-poverty agency there, I had many opportunities to speak with and listen to many elderly black people who didn't have decent educational opportunities, and who shook their heads in disappointment at the way the youth in their community were rejecting the educational opportunities that they themselves had fought for in THEIR youth. Had I not heard what they had said, I would not have opened my mouth about bad English on the comments section here.

"PURPOSEFUL and AGGRESSIVELY bad speech." Purposeful and agressive rejection or the society and its values. One black kid I was supervising told me how proud he was of getting drunk and beating up a drunken white man. A decade later I met him - a young man grateful for the fact that I never gave him the "guilty white" act or kow-towed to his trash.

"PURPOSEFUL and AGGRESSIVELY bad speech."

That is what I saw in American black kids in St. Paul, and that is what I see on this site, and in other sites commenting on Pretty Ricky.

And now, I'm back out of here.

Dave, "Back Door Man" is an old blues song, covered by the Doors.

Why do guys manage to talk about certain celebrity's? I mean seems like you are always talking about Pretty Ricky but why don't you ever talk about some other people like Bow wow or Omarion but I'm not telling to do that because those two guys have millions of fans and they may start a little feud on your website. But I'm just saying that you can talk about some other people for a change.

Ashley, I've been beggin' people to talk about someone else for a change; even the names Pretty Ricky and B5 are getting pretty tired, after months and months and months. It sure would be nice to see some real topics on the "most commented" board in the music section for a change.

At least this thread got into some useful side issues, though.

dey haters dey tryna bring Pretty Ricky n dey fans down but it only makin us n dem stronger wen new ppl come in da rap game dey always expect less 4rm dem but PR gonna n is gettin better n better so take b****es(da haters)

dude, nobody here is a hater. Did you read any of the conversation? You might actually learn something from it.

If you not a hater then what are you then? Oh critic? Well to me a critic is just a hater in book. OH and just for the record I did learn something from the article I learned that critics don't got nothing better to do.