None of your condemnations of Tookie address the topic of whether the over-all death penalty is a good idea.

"The state does not have the moral authority...to kill," Jackson said, and you rebutt with, "Neither did Tookie, but that didn't stop him from taking down four people did it?"

Do you notice that your statement has no relevance to the point that Jackson is attempting to make?

I don't know how deserving Tookie was of the death penalty, how much more or less deserving he was than anyone else, and I'm not interested in spending a lot of time figuring it out, but what I am interested in is the usefulness of the death penalty over-all.

When someone is the scum of the earth, it does not automatically follow that the government should kill them. You assume that it does, which makes this an article that is relatively strong on how bad Tookie is, but relatively weak on the bit about killing him.

-Sam

"None of your condemnations of Tookie address the topic of whether the over-all death penalty is a good idea."

That's because the author doesn't realize his zeal to kill Tookie makes him no different than Tookie.

Ryan, you forgot to mention one important guest, by the name of Snoop Dogg, who claimed that he was one of the many who Tookie inspired.

Here is an excerpt from a recent son from Tookie influenced rapper who influences millions with his lyrics: (Pay attention to the references to the Crips and him being a Crip)

When the pimp's in the crib ma
Drop it like it's hot
Drop it like it's hot
Drop it like it's hot
When the pigs try to get at ya
Park it like it's hot
Park it like it's hot
Park it like it's hot
And if a nigga get a attitude
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot
Pop it like it's hot
I got the rolly on my arm and I'm pouring Chandon
And I roll the best weed cause I got it going on

[Verse - Pharrell Williams]

(I didn't include this part because Pharrell did not attend the funeral.)


[Chorus]

[Verse - Snoop Dogg]
I'm a GANGSTA, but y'all knew that
Da Big Bo$$ Dogg, yeah I had to do that
I keep a BLUE FLAG hanging out my backside
But only on the left side, yeah that's the CRIP side
Ain't no other way to play the game the way I play
I cut so much you thought I was a DJ
[scratches] "two!" - "one!" - "yep, three!"
S-N double O-P, D-O double G
I can't fake it, just break it, and when I take it
See I specialize in making all the girls get naked
So bring your friends, all of y'all come inside
We got a world premiere right here, now get live!
So don't change the dizzle, turn it up a little
I got a living room full of fine dime brizzles
Waiting on the Pizzle, the Dizzle and the Shizzle
G's to the bizzack, now ladies here we gizzo

[Chorus]

[Verse - Snoop Dogg]
I'm a Bad Boy, wit a lotta ho's
Drive my own cars, and wear my own clothes
I hang out tough, I'm a real Bo$$
Big Snoop Dogg, yeah he's so sharp
On the TV screen and in the magazines
If you play me close, you're on a red beam
Oh you got a gun so you wanna pop back?
AK47 now nigga, stop that!
Cement shoes, now I'm on the move
Your family's crying, now you on the news
They can't find you, and now they miss you
Must I remind you I'm only here to twist you
Pistol whip you, dip you then flip you
Then dance to this motherfucking music we CRIP to
Subscribe nigga, get yo issue
Baby come close, let me see how you get loose!

[Chorus]

[Outro]
Snooooooooooop.
Snooooooooooop..

------------------------

You guys like? And you got to take note that this is a SINGLE for the Radio which means that this song is heard by millions of kids every day.

Ryan and Anthony are two very good examples of why we don't let children run the world. Lords of the Flies indeed...

That is an excellent point Nino. I too learned to wait for the pizzle, the dizzle, and the shizzle from Snoop. He has corrupted my life.

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

[1849*]



We, the people of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings, do establish this Constitution.

Now that we have established that we must research what that means to the death penalty argument.
I suggest Romans chapter 13.

While I agree that the comparison between Tookie Williams and Jesus was absurd and pretty sick, this article is not only far more black-and-white than real life ever was or is, but inherently self-contradictory.

On the one hand it says of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton,

Hi, both of you are a disgrace to Christianity.

Then says of Tookie Williams,

In the end, we all ought to be glad he's dead, but ashamed that we gave this man but a second of our sympathy and the dignity of our consideration.

Jesus would have given this man his sympathy and the dignity of his consideration. Who's the disgrace to Christianity now?

When you grow up, Ryan, you'll learn that the human world is a far more complicated place than what you describe here.

Jesus would in fact have given Tookie pity, but he would not have given him clemency. Jesus could not go against the bible because it is the inherent word of God.

Williams was an accomplished conman. He never repented anything except getting caught.

Tookie will be at my birthday party on the 25th.

To address the death penalty question, Sam Jack, the death penalty is a damn' fine institution; the problem is we have hampered it by allowing scumbags like Williams appeal after appeal after appeal - nothing more than delaying tactics - at the expense of the state, stretching into years. If carried out quickly & inevitably, as in Singapore, it would be terrifically effective, both as punishment & deterrant.

Michael---I'm not religious, so I doubt I'm disgracing a faith I do not necessarily believe it.

My point though, was to ask how too Rev. (people of a high religious position) could sit there and allow such a horrific comparision. Its disgusting and a pretty good indicator on how much they actually care about Christ. Like everything else they do, its just a stepping stone and a means to the limelight.

"My point though, was to ask how too Rev. could sit there and allow such a horrific comparision."

Like many of the popular religious leaders they are charlatans who care more about personal aggrandizement and gaining political power than about their respective religions. They use religion as a tool to secure power over their followers.

This specific group needs African-Americans to remain a victims to secure their power. Tookie was a well known figure who they could use as a martyr to garner more support.

Wow! Redtard I agree with you on that one. Do you think Bush is one of those charlatans who cares more about political power?

Hey redtard, they did the same thing to Chappelle. Now he's a victim and a comedy martyr...damn them, damn them all!!!

are you referring to the chappelle theory?

Nancy, for the record, I believe the death penalty is appropriate for certain cases. But for it to be a credible deterrant, our entire society would have to become hideously draconian.

As for allowing those found guilty to appeal... a number of convicted murderers have been found innocent due to the appeal process allowing reexamination of their cases. I'm talking about forensic science proving conclusively, usually with DNA analysis, that the wrong people have been sitting on death row for years or decades. Or even been already executed.

If the appeals process is "streamlined" in the name of making execution a credible deterrant to murder, inevitably more innocent people are going to be executed. This is an unacceptable tradeoff to me.

Red:"Like many of the popular religious leaders they are charlatans who care more about personal aggrandizement and gaining political power than about their respective religions. They use religion as a tool to secure power over their followers."

Yep. And that includes Billy Graham, too, the charlatan who pulled the wool over GWBs eyes.

"None of your condemnations of Tookie address the topic of whether the over-all death penalty is a good idea."

no where did ryan say he would be addressing that topic nor did he obligate himself to do so with his opening or closing remarks...


"I don't know how deserving Tookie was of the death penalty, how much more or less deserving he was than anyone else, and I'm not interested in spending a lot of time figuring it out, but what I am interested in is the usefulness of the death penalty over-all."

ryan's article did take the time to figure it out, for better or worse...if you're interested in addressing the usefulness of the death penalty then write an article about it or invite someone to do so...it doesn't bring you any closer to resolving the issue of usefulness to comment on how ryan didn't do it for you...

"When someone is the scum of the earth, it does not automatically follow that the government should kill them. You assume that it does, which makes this an article that is relatively strong on how bad Tookie is, but relatively weak on the bit about killing him."

again, for better or worse, ryan did address the issue of killing tookie, citing reasons he thought it was justified...whether one agrees with those reasons or not, the issue was addressed...

"That's because the author doesn't realize his zeal to kill Tookie makes him no different than Tookie."

this is as ridiculous a comparison as farrakhan comparing tookie to christ...ryan is not the one who put tookie to death and is rather expressing his opinion of tookie being put to death...there is a world of difference between word and deed...
for all we know, ryan could not himself have given him the poison that would kill tookie, and perhaps any of us would not have been able to or would have surprised ourselves with the ability to carry out someone else's death...

it's more than a little interesting that farrakhan didn't compare tookie to his own diety...me thinks thou doth think less of the man than one lets on...

"Jesus would have given this man his sympathy and the dignity of his consideration. Who's the disgrace to Christianity now?"

no where does ryan say that he is christian and in a response he says he is not...if you hear a whooshing sound, that would be the crux of that argument going out the window...i can rightfully assert someone's disgrace per their group without being a part of that group myself...even if ryan were christian, his point that farrakhan compared tookie to someone his own religion dismisses should not be taken lightly...

"When you grow up, Ryan, you'll learn that the human world is a far more complicated place than what you describe here."

indeed the world is a complicated place...much of it is relatively simple...luring children into a den of crime and drugs is wrong, always...making a club of it all the more so...tookie's murder convictions aside, the man victimized children and ruined many young lives...that's not complicated...writing books and renouncing one's previous convictions does nothing to assuage the damage already done...again, not complicated...
complicated would be the process of feeding the world's hungry...concluding that tookie used a significant portion of his life to ruin other lives? pretty simple...it's only complicated if you in any way can relate to what he did and feel the need to assuage your own guilt...complicated, yes...an issue for society? no, that would be all yours to sort out...


as a deterrent, the death penalty works in that the dead can no longer commit crimes...clearly it doesn't serve as an example or deterrent for others; if that's the point, then yes it has failed...in my opinion, it's not about other criminals -- who act almost exclusively from internal motivation -- it's about the victims and their families...the death penalty and any other deterrent or punishment for that matter is external such that those who would commit crimes are not going to be deterred...fences don't keep honest people honest; fences keep some honest people honest...
desperation, poverty, an overwhelming sense of not belonging, hunger, etc are all internal motivations for going over that fence -- even if the chance of death awaits...for some, the risk of death is no greater than the reality of their present dilemma...

the death penalty is about revenge, pure and simple...color it any way you want, dress it up in any language you care to, killing someone for something they did is revenge...i don't necessarily think that's a bad thing...the victims and families are the most important and most dismissed element in this equation...if they want someone dead in a state where the death penalty is legal, then i say have at it...
i agree that the appeals process should stay because of the (few, but significant) number of innocents it would spare...ironically though, the appeals process is a respect for life that inevitably ends with a profound lack of respect for life...

what sickens most of those in favor of tookie's death is the way his supporters were consistently mum about what tookie did do...again, the murder convictions aside, the man founded a terrorist organization...he used children's desperation and hopelessness against them...where were tookie's supporters when he was running around on the streets creating all manner of hate and discontent? what are those supporters doing for the children who are presently being recruited into the very organization that tookie founded? his supporters knew there would be children from gangs at that funeral and yet they did not set up a recruiting station of their own to follow the service...they yakked a bit and then got in their cars and left...
how courageous is it really to get behind someone who is behind bars and then is dead? the kids that were at that funeral in gang clothing and who are on the streets now in danger of being recruited -- they are the ones in need of all that courage...where's their celebrity support?

"That's because the author doesn't realize his zeal to kill Tookie makes him no different than Tookie."

i have yet another issue with this comment...
ryan (to our knowledge) has not committed any crime...

what is with this idea of dismissing what the man stanley williams did to the point of comparing him to people who have done nothing wrong?

hell, comparisons aside...what in the hell is with dismissing and minimizing what stanley williams DID do?
is it because he didn't recruit you personally (speaking to no one in particular) or someone you love into a dead end life?
do you not understand the magnitude of the damage that man caused?
he's no hitler only in quantity...in quality, what in the hell's the difference? people who recruit people to kill people and commit other crimes against people are bad people...

those who would pity stanley's "plight" have no grasp of the real tragedy he brought upon others...

by no measure can this man possibly be regarded as some kind of good guy...where the hell's your bottom line? seriously, does victimizing children really come with a friggin' asterisk? it's okay to exploit children as long as you write about it later? what the hell IS that?

wow diana i am blown away with your understanding of my argument and my opinion on the topic. good job, your responses were fantastic.

jesus accepted his fate...nuff said...

Ryan and Anthony are two very good examples of why we don't let children run the world.

And we should let the grownups like Tookie and SnoopDogg run it? Because they ARE running it in the sense that they have a million times more impact than the likes of Ryan and Anthony. So let's glorify all the gangsters and rappers, and put down anyone who dares to say anything negative about them. Yeah, good idea.

Thank you Richard

tookie should be alive

arnold was wrong your write snoop dogg go tookie