Or Television ! Why not Television ? They really started it all as far as the CBGBs scene goes - and they could play their instruments unlike most of the other bands cited. If it's pure musical influence were talking about (not dollars) , Television was way influential. Dee Dee Ramone actually auditioned to be their bass player at one point. David Byrne used to watch them before the Talking Heads ever played a gig. Malcom McLaren took their look ( ripped t-shirts et al, spikey hair ) to England with him and bestowed it upon the Pistols. And then there is that angular guitar sound so often associated with that other art-pop-rock band Gang of Four. Who pioneered it ? Tom Verlaine of course !

I hate the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The idea that Jann Wenner and his cohorts claim to bestow some stamp of greatness on bands is absurd. The idea that James Taylor and Billy Joel are great rock and rollers beggars belief and yet they have been enshrined, while Iggy and the NY DOlls and the MC5 have gotten the shaft.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame resides in the heart of every kid who truly hears the music and loves the music and makes it the organizing principle of his or her life. My hope was that the bands I loved as akid (The Ramones, The Clash, the Pretenders) would recognise this place for the sham that it is and refuse to accept their inductions. So far, I have not been lucky. Hopefully, when his name is called, Johnny Rotten will take a dump on the stage and fling his fecal matter at Jann Wenner.

Great take Marty, thanks! I agree about Iggy, the Dolls, and Television, and how in the name of Lenny Kaye can you keep Patti Smith out?

Television were awesome and highly influential. Not only did the Gang of Four steal those guitar lines, I think the Edge and Bono spent a lot of long nights listening to Marquee Moon.

But I have to stick with my original position that the place is a sham and should not exist. If it was a museum stuffed with artifacts (like the Stax Museum in Memphis) I'd have no real objection, but it has pretensions of grandeur. What are the criteria for inclusion? Who are the nominators? Who are the voters? What were they thinking when they voted for Billy Joel, but not Iggy Pop? What were they thinking when they voted for James Taylor, but not the New York Dolls? How in thename of god does Jackson Browne qualify for any hall of fame?

I hate the very idea of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. It's exactly the opposite of what rock & roll is supposed to be, which is social upheaval and confrontation. A "Hall of Fame" for such a thing is really just a way of de-fanging it.

In addition to my already posted comments, I would like to adopt Michael J. West's comment as my own. He is exactly right.

Russ Van Rooy -- yes, Television did start it all at CBGB, thanks to the late Terry Ork. They are surely deserving. Miles Davis? I wonder who came up with that beauty? No doubt he was a great jazz musician but this is the ROCK 'N' ROLL HALL OF FAME -- not the JAZZ ROCK FUSION HALL OF FAME!

#5 ditto

Christopher Rose & Michael J. West -- I agree that r 'n' roll is about social upheaval and confrontation but it is also about entertainment and information directed to young people. It's supposed to be presented to them in their very own language. Artists suffer a great deal to get to that place of popularity and any recognition is welcomed by them. Unfortunately it becomes a greedy self - serving game by those in the power positions and loses its purity.

Miles Davis? I wonder who came up with that beauty? No doubt he was a great jazz musician but this is the ROCK 'N' ROLL HALL OF FAME -- not the JAZZ ROCK FUSION HALL OF FAME!

MT--While I stand by my distaste for anybody being in the HOF, I'll play devil's advocate and say that Miles has as much place there as anybody does. Fusing jazz with rock opened tremendous new horizons for rock as well as jazz...why shouldn't Miles receive credit for that on both sides of the spectrum?

MT: True, but it's also about being wild and free and not controlled by the man. The RNRHOF is the man!

Michael --an argument can be made for Miles but I think there are so many other rockers that should have been considered before him. Can you cite some examples of the new horizons you believe he opened for rock?

Can you cite some examples of the new horizons you believe he opened for rock?

Sure!

* Jazz-rock itself, of course, making possible the music of Blood Sweat and Tears, Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Steely Dan, among many others continuing all the way up to, for example, Primus.

* Whole avenues of Prog Rock, including sidelong improvisations and use of jazz instruments in rock (ref. Jethro Tull, '70s King Crimson, and at least four Frank Zappa albums)

* Textural approaches to funk that were adapted by Funkadelic, late Sly & the Family Stone, Stevie Wonder, the Meters, and Prince

* Polyrhythmic ideas that form the basis of much hip-hop and electronic dance music

* Areas of the avant-garde that are still being explored: Arto Lindsay, Glenn Branca, Fred Frith, the Residents, etc.

Good examples but I don't know if I would consider Prince, Sly, Stevie Wonder, and Meters rock. I would consider them more influenced by r 'n ' b and blues even though they incorporated some jazz lines in their music. Do polyrhythmic ideas more suited to hip hop and electronic dance music really fall into rock category? You have made a good point, though. It's a good argument.

There are so many deserving bands from so many different eras, that it's impossible to include them all immediately (my understanding is that only a limited number of artists are inducted each year). Inductees need to satisfy a wide range of music fans.

I think the Dolls and the Stooges will make it in, eventually.

I also agree that this is kind of a dubious honor, like other awards such as the Grammys. Anybody remember when the Starland Vocal Band won the Grammy for Best New Artist or when Jethro Tull won a Grammy for best "Metal" album?

The music is what matters the most...

"Hopefully, when his name is called, Johnny Rotten will take a dump on the stage and fling his fecal matter at Jann Wenner."

What's left of my teenage idealism wishes for just that but I doubt Lydon is up to the job. Even RS bestowed positive reviews upon PiL when it counted.

The Rock & Roll hall of Fame and, certainly, Wenner is Stalinist to the rotten core but the sad fact remains: many inductees are at the end of their rope when their moment comes and induction is a grand opportunity to move a greatest hits package.

The day they posthumously induct Terry Knight is the day my manuscript goes into the fireplace. I'm resting easy on that one.

Speaking of flames, Wenner will burn in hell eventually but the Devil won't have eternal Billy Joel albums to use as Wenner's punishment, he'll have to come up with something even more extreme; scary thought, that.

The manner in which induction is being determined is obviously suspect and perhaps even thoughtless but, as unjust and political as it may be, all artists -- and I side on their part -- would want to be included. The reasons why are obvious, aren't they? Wouldn't you want the recognition? The trip to the top is torturous. Someone telling you that you were the greatest is the reward for all the scars you bear. The music biz is a rough, corrupt game. So what else is new? And, Barry, Wenner's punishment will be having to listen to Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits through headphones at top volume 24 hours a day for all eternity.

"The reasons why are obvious, aren't they? Wouldn't you want the recognition?"

In all honesty, the reasons for wanting the recognition of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fmae are not that obvious to me. The place is obviously a joke. Any institution which honors Billy Joel, Jackson Browne, and James Taylor as great rock and rollers obviously has no concept as to what rock and roll is. If James Taylor is an inductee, why shouldn't Barry Manilow be in there? Barry had at least as many hits as James Taylor, and Barry did not have James Taylor's pretensions to artistry. As far as I am concerned, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is indefensible, and a little part of me dies every time one of my music heroes walks on the stage to accept the award.

"'Hopefully, when his name is called, Johnny Rotten will take a dump on the stage and fling his fecal matter at Jann Wenner.'

What's left of my teenage idealism wishes for just that but I doubt Lydon is up to the job. Even RS bestowed positive reviews upon PiL when it counted."

You are right, but let me hold on to my hope for a little while longer.

"If James Taylor is an inductee, why shouldn't Barry Manilow be in there?"

Sean -- because Barry Manilow is not a rock and roll artist. That's why! Manilow is pure corn. Taylor at least connected to kids when he was young his first time around. I'm not defending his inclusion but compared to Manilow he represents rock far beyond what Manilow ever will. No doubt there are many that've been inducted that are a puzzlement but there are also many that deserve the recognition bestoyed upon them. The HOF choices will never satisfy everyone.

"because Barry Manilow is not a rock and roll artist."

Neither is James Taylor. Full stop. Period.

The place is a sham, and the 'recognition' bestowed upon artists is dubious. Did the Clash become a better band when they were inducted? Are the Stooges no good because they have been passed over? I cannot understand why anyone would consider induction into this joke an honor. Like I said before, when someone whose music I love takes the stage and says thanks for the honor, a pice of me dies.

If they are not already eligible, within a few years Black Flag and Minor Threat will be eligible, followed by Fugazi. If they are nominated, I am fairly certain they will say 'piss off' though I doubt Jann will allow them to be nominated.

Marty, you have written that no A&R guy should be over 17 years old (which is a statement I completeky agrre with and which I have shamelessly stolen from you in conversations with friends). Show me a 17 year old who is cool enough to be an A & R guy, and I'll show you an 17 year old who thinks the RNRHOF is full of shit.

And Marty, for the record, let me say that despite our disagreement here, I have nothing but the highest respect for you and your work. It is because of your efforts that a Jersey Kid got to hear Suicide and Richard Hell and the Fleshtones before he crossed the Hudson River for the first time on his own. In fact, should you be inducted to the RNRHOF, I will maintain radio silence on my criticisms of the place.

sorry mt, total respect to your heritage and all, but I'd rather have to listen to Manilow forever than James Taylor for a day.

Sean - James Taylor today is not the same James Taylor of yesteryear. Artists evolve and, as the years set in, some mellow out. Back then he was a serious junkie and symbol of the disenfranchised. You hadda be there to appreciate what he implied back in the day.

Let me ask you this -- have you witnessed any artist turning down induction in the Hall, or afterwards speaking poorly about it? I don't think so. My comments about the HOF have nothing to do with me liking it, or not. I'm simply saying each artist inducted is thrilled and it has nothing to do with making them a better musician.

And, thank you for your kind words. I seriously doubt I will ever be inducted in the HOF but I do want to see the Dolls get in. That would be satisfying to me because of all the b.s.the record biz put us through. That would constitute another last laugh for me. And, should that happen, they would be the 4th artist I worked with that is in the HOF - Ramones, Blondie, Van Morrison are the others -- and I am proud of it.

Christopher -- to each his own. I don't understand how you could feel that way but I respect your opinion. That's what it is all about -- opinion.

Marty: don't get me wrong, I love most of the artists you've personally worked with but the mighty Manilow versus the whingeing James effin Taylor? No contest, man.

Check this:

Her name was Lola, she was a showgirl
With yellow feathers in her hair and a dress cut down to there
She would merengue and do the cha-cha
And while she tried to be a star
Tony always tended bar
Across the crowded floor,
they worked from 8 til 4
They were young and they had each other
Who could ask for more?

[Chorus:]
At the copa (CO!) Copacabana (Copacabana)
The hottest spot north of Havana (here)
At the copa (CO!) Copacabana
Music and passion were always in fashion
At the copa.... they fell in love

His name was Rico
He wore a diamond
He was escorted to his chair, he saw Lola dancing there
And when she finished,he called her over
But Rico went a bit to far
Tony sailed across the bar
And then the punches flew and chairs were smashed in two
There was blood and a single gun shot
But just who shot who?

When you're down and troubled and you need a helping hand
and nothing, whoa, nothing is going right.
Close your eyes and think of me and soon I will be there
to brighten up even your darkest nights.

You just call out my name, and you know where ever I am
I'll come running to see you again.
Winter, spring, summer, or fall, all you have to do is call and I'll be there, yeah, yeah,
you've got a friend.

"Let me ask you this -- have you witnessed any artist turning down induction in the Hall, or afterwards speaking poorly about it?"

No I have not witnessed that and like I said, a little bit of me dies when that does not happen.

Chris -- like I said, to each his own and it is all about opinion.

Incidentally -- a bit of trivia -- I represented and executed Manilow's record deal for him with Bell Records that eventually became Arista. I do appreciate Barry for what he is but I still don't rate him as a rocker and I would think he would concur. He's a pop singer who has evolved, too, but, in my opinion, is still far removed from rock 'n' roll. Just my opinion.

FYI, it was Tony Orlando who discovered Manilow and was the one who brought him to me. (Tony married my cousin Elaine and was best man at my wedding).

At that time, in 1971, Tony was the General Professional Manager at CBS's publishing wing, April-Blackwood Music, and was overseeing Manilow's, Bette Midler's and James Taylor's songs.

Interesting coincidence in light of this conversation, isn't it?

Marty: neither do I see either Barry or James as rockers at all, but one is at least passionate!

Given your family connection to Tony Orlando, I'll say nothing until Dawn! ;-)

Six degrees of separation! I wonder how close we are?

Chris -- we have music in common. All types, all persuasions.

MT

I think we have some people in common too, I worked with or for labels like Rough Trade, Mute and New Rose, amongst others, for a long time back in the day.

I did business with all of them. What years did you work for those companies and what did you do for thrm?

Zero problems with James Taylor getting into the Hall of Fame. During the '70s he was a phenomenon, a rock one, not a pop one. In fact the pop world didn't really embrace the majority of his work. For every "You've Got a Friend" (which is great), there was five other songs succinctly dealing with his drug abuse, his neurosis, etc. In short, no one but Taylor did it as well. At this point, the Hall would be a lesser place if it hadn't recognized James's singular talents...

Hi Marty: I worked at Rough Trade from 79 to 81 doing PR. I was their second ever publicist, following in the footsteps of the late great Scott Piering and backed up by the third, the unique, much-loved and also late Claude Bessey. I like to think we were the greatest publicity team there has been or will ever be!

Daniel Miller is simply one of the great characters of the music industry and it was fantastic watching him grow from promoting his own single to running one of the most exciting record labels in the world. Ditto Derek at One Little Indian.

After Rough Trade I set up my own thing and represented New Rose and many other labels in the UK for a long time amongst other things...

Hi Chris -- Geoff Travis, Daniel Miller and Patrick Mathe -- all passionate music men and true indie pioneers. I remember Travis coming to see me in NY in 1978 to convince me to license my Suicide album to his newly formed Rough Trade company. I remember thinking that this guy was gonna be an important music biz figure -- and he is. I assume he is still at it. Funny thing about the music life -- once it gets in your blood it stays forever.

David Bowie, Joni Mitchell, and Van Morrison didnt show up to their inductions. And they all have a bit more integrity than your Billy Joels and Jackson Brownes (yuck).

Lance -- my Billy Joel and Jackson Browne?
(Yuck you).

I'll defend the inclusion of Taylor and Joel. Rock & Roll isn't just about "social upheaval and confrontation." If that were the case, we'd be looking at a Motley Crue nomination.

I agree Sister Ray. See my #9 post.

mt--i know it was a long time ago--but, if you can't see that prince is a rock musician, then you have never listened to the man. sure, he did do some rather r&bish stuff, but he's done as much, probably more, rock. and he's done jazz, funk, psychedelic, pop, classical, experimental, rap, dance... often on the same album, often during the same song...

i don't particularily like the hall of fame thing... but it's there... when's the last time they inducted someone who was obscure, yet influential? the velvet underground, sure, but they've gained some amount of fame over the years (and lou reed is lou reed)... but what about big star? black flag, the replacements, husker du, sonic youth, the minutemen? the jesus and mary chain? joy division/new order? talk talk? all highly influential... bah...

Zingzing -- I realize Prince rocked but I don't quite rate him as a true rocker, or as someone to be inducted quite so quickly. If it wasn't called the Rock 'N' Roll Hall of Fame and was, instead, simply the Music Hall of Fame I'd vote for Prince in a minute. He is/was great -- no doubt about it -- but there are so many others deserving of recognition that I'd induct before him. Just my opinion.

I don't agree with Sonic Youth, Big Star, Minutemen, Replacements, Black Flag, Talk Talk as future inductees. They were all okay but not top tier in my opinion.

I won't speculate on Joy Division, Husker Du, Jesus & Mary Chain. I love(d) New Order and hope they make it.

Who knows what goes through the minds of those selectors?

MT

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Thank you.


Temple

And hooray, the great Mary posts. Glad to see. It's been a long while (I think, though may have missed something)

Wasn't supposed to reveal that sex change thing was I?

MarTy.

Sorry. - temple

Temple, honey - are you still pissed off at me because I wouldn't let you borrow my red dress?

It's not just that the HOF has ignored influential prepunk / CBGB bands. Or that they skew strongly in the direction of Motown. They've dropped the ball in mainstream "classic" rock too.

Consider three non-inductees: Yes, Rush, and Jethro Tull. I know, you're picturing me with grease under my fingernails and a cigarette hanging out of my mouth. But seriously, think of these bands under the criteria given above: success, skill, influence. Now try to write a history of rock without these bands. What stadium couldn't they fill? Weren't they influential enough? Talented? Long-lived?

I can appreciate the difficulty in selecting bands like MC5 or the NY Dolls who never made much $. But some of the HOF choices, and some of the oversights, are just bizarre.

It's not an exact science -- that's for sure.