Many pay Social-Security taxes from which they will never benefit. Their disposable income turns over many times to support many local economies. They perform services that most Americans would rather not do at a fair price"


Liberal tripe!

They take low paying jobs that are offered by employers who can pay them low wages because being illegals they have no recourse for fair compensation.

Anyone with half a brain can see this.

What planet have you been on for the past 10 years truths?

I have to support this: employers pay illegals because that way they can pay wages "under the table", without having to file & pay either social security or any other form of benefit taxes. In turn, illegals create a drain on publicly funded resources such as hospitals (especially emergency rooms), low-income or assisted housing, food & medical programs, & the biggie - educating their kids at taxpayer expense. They also create an increase in crime as well as social welfare. On the whole, they are far more of a burden than they are a necessity to our economy.

...this change of topic is a farce...? I call it trying to get back to the business of taking care of the country. Ask the people of Texas, Arizona and California who is bearing most of the burden for the illegals. Health care, welfare, education, drug trafficing - all being paid for by a few states and they are fed up with it. It's time the feds did something about it. It has been a problem for years and has nothing to do with Iraq.

Sonny...I disagree. I dont want to pay more taxes to support this problem...it isnt solving anything. we need 1,000 mile electric "bug zapper" fences. that will solve all of our issues

Nancy the ACLU is on their way to your house!How dare you suggest that just because the are "aliens" that they would engage in criminal activities! This is a liberal website in case you havent noticed. Sonny be careful many Texans who participated in the Revolution had a last name that ended in a vowel or a "Z"(i.e. rodriguez, flores,cantu.) You Libs are walking a very fine line.

So wait: the 9/11 hijackers who crossed our pourous borders, got Virginia (or wherever) driver's licenses so they could get pilot's licenses to plow airplanes into the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon and kill 3,000 Amnerican--this kind of potential recurring scenario has nothing to do with border security and scrutinizing everyone who tries to the United States illegally? How naive can you be?

Not Naive GoHah, facetious is more the proper term. I believe that entering our country illegally should be, you guessed it "Illegal" and punishable by more than just deportation.

hell, i'll take it to the step it needs to be taken to so that the problem can be solved...

recently the FCC rauised the fine for "obscenity" to over a half million dollars per incident

i propose we fine businesses that hire illegal aliens the same half million per illegal alien

watch how fast they stop hiring folks in the country illegally

as to the whole "they take jobs no one else will"....well, in the past when it was mostly migrqant farm work...i would almost agree

but not in the Present, on construction sites, in restaurant kitchens, hotel staff, landscaping and manufacturing....among others

the net effect not only encourages the behavior by rewarding criminals with a paycheck, but also artificially depresses wages in the industries that are involved....after all, why pay that carpenter $15-20 an hour, when you can hire an illegal to do it for $5-10 as well as not pay payroll taxes, SS or insurance for that worker

cut off the money and you will see the flow shift from illegal immigration to legal rather quickly

now, those businesses that exploit these folks for higher profits won't be happy....but fuck them, they are aiding and abetting the criminals

if needed, a nice double fence the lenght of the border, in between you let roam free a few thousand rabid pit bulls with AIDS to patrol the "no man's land" between the fences

that should do it...put up some cameras and you have a new reality show for cable

your mileage may vary

Excelsior!

Gonzo, for once (and hopefully only once) we agree.

Hell hath frozen.

My mileage certainly does vary, Gonzo.

First off, illegals with real skills like carpenters aren't getting paid anything like $5 an hour - more likely $15 an hour which isn't a bad wage. The only people being paid more are union carpenters and they aren't a big factor in border states which are all 'right to work' states. In those states you don't need to hire an illegal to undercut a union wage, you just hire a non-union carpenter.

The point you and others are missing is that illegals aren't being hired because they work cheaper, they're being hired because they will DO the work in the first place. There aren't enough US citizens who are willing to do a lot of the work that goes to illegals regardless of what kind of wage is being paid - though I guess if you raised the wage high enough you could find someone to do it.

In certain sectors of our economy we have a genuine labor shortage and illegals are the only way to fill that shortage. That's the reason why a guest worker program will work and the reason why the complaints from the left about it are so transparently bogus.

Dave

Mr Nalle sez...
*The point you and others are missing is that illegals aren't being hired because they work cheaper, they're being hired because they will DO the work in the first place.*

and there is the big Lie in a nutshell

as i stated, that may have been true in the days of the 2 dollar an hour migrant worker...but not now..

Logic simply does not bear your point of view out...if all things were equal...why risk hiring the illegal unless you were making more money from doing so?

as far as your bullshit Postulate about any "genuine labor shortage"....again i call bullshit

isn't that part of a "free market"? if there is a shortage, prices go up, then it gets filled

using illegals and offshoring artificially depresses the price of Labor as a commodity for the sole benefit of the employer

as for Justin...damn..i would hope there would be many times when sane people could agree on Issues and not be so blinded by their Idealogies that they toss aside Logic and a desire to achieve the common good....ah well...silly me

nuff said?

Excelsior!

Gonzo, it's not the big lie, it's verifiable truth. You can deny it if you like up there in Maine where there's not an illegal to be seen, but down here in Texas, if you want to hire someone to do certain kinds of work you're not going to find anyone to hire but illegals and the market sets the wages. But yes, the employer does save money, because he pays under the table, pays no taxes, no unemployment, no workers comp, no retirement, no health, etc. He also hires and fires at will and faces few hassles from dissatisfied workers. He still pays about the same wage though.

Your points about a free market are true, up to the point where the price would rise so high that no one would be able to stay in business. If there were no illegals they would have to be paying people who are now doing skilled labor or supervisory work to do unskilled labor or lower level work. The electrician or plumber or carpenter who now supervises a crew of illegals and teenagers and ex-cons would suddenly find himself having to do some of their work and the employer would have to pay more for that work. Houses would go up slower and would cost more, and that would certainly hurt a lot of people, especially entry-level homebuyers.

Remember, we've got 4% unemployment down here, which essentially means no unemployment. There's no one who wants a job who can't get one if they're willing to work for $10 an hour - more if they've got skills.

Dave

ah Mr Nalle...you keep thinking that your nice fenced compound world down in Texas is representative of the entire country

news fer ya....we have plenty of illegals up here...in the hotels, restaurants...not so many in construction

but remember..tho i live up here now..i'm from the Jersey shore...the problem may not be quite what the border states endure...but it IS huge in the NY-NJ-Philly area...i grew up working in kitchens in my teenage years before the service...made good money and learned some good skills

they pay the SAME wages now...30 years later...for those same jobs, as they did back then...why?....because illegals will do them

who does it benefit to have illegal workers? unscrupulous businesses...that's it...it does NO good for Americans in general nor for our economy...and as i have stated, my thinking is that it places an artificial downward pressure on wages in the whol economy

as for your "but then they would go out of business" or the whole prices will rise scenario...i say

let the greedheads go out of business...others will fill the void left, and will be less greedy so they can operate in the black legally

as for prices, such as entry level housing...i call bullshit

again, the market sets the prices, if a builder can't bring in the product for said price, he will fail and another who can do it will make the cash

besides first time buyers don't purchase new homes, far too expensive in many parts of the country...whereas older homes are a damn fine value

obviously we see things differently, and i don't have any problem with that...all i ask is that you take a moment and contemplate that what i am trying to get across may just have some merit

i'm all for legal immigration...my mother's grandparents and my fathers parents all came here via Ellis Island...

but those who come here illegally, i consider to be stealing from Citizens of this Nation...those that hire them, some of the worst scum in our country

nuff said?

Excelsior!

If I read you right here gonzo, you'd like to let a huge section of our economy go belly up, plunge us into depression, and have a European style unemployment crisis just so that you can keep some illegals from earning a living? Did I get that about right?

Dave

nope

what i said was go with the principles of free market capitalism and get rid fo the fascist indentured servant/wage slave/illegal aliens model

then let the market forces operate without the artificial downward pressure engendered by an underclass of illegal workers in the country and instead allow the market to operate to establish the price of Labor just like any other commodity after you have removed the criminal actions...

simple enough?...or are you against the free market and for criminals?

Excelsior!

We should resurect Reagan's STI star wars plan and instead of using it to shoot down incoming Russian nukes we aim it at the Mexican border and start zapping at will.

Gonzo, I'm in favor of a free market without borders. It's not a free market if an element of the potential work force is excluded from it.

Dave

Open borders is a good idea - if they're open both ways. Like a lot of my business friends, I would LOVE to open businesses in Mexico, Guatemala and Costa Rica, but it's just too damn hard to start them and almost impossible to retain ownership if they succeed. By opening businesses in Central America we'd bring needed jobs to the area and relieve immigration pressure. But the governments are SO corrupt that it's impossible. And we've all tried it and gotten stung (one of the big families just steals your business, or you can only startup under very unfavorable contracts, and of course you can't OWN anything even if you bought it). One of my friends even ended up in a Mexican jail when he protested being ripped off.

If GWB is sincere about stopping illegal immigration he'll go after his friend Vicente Fox to reform their corrupt government/business complex, but I think GWB has no courage for a hard job like that. In fact, I think he admires the Mexican system of hereditary family feudalism.

for Mr Nalle in #18

i understand yoru Position...

silly me..i am an American

i WANT to be treated like the big kid in the Playground of our World...i WANT our workers/businesses/Citizens to be the fucking BENEFICIARIES of American policy and trade...

NOT criminal illegals, the criminals that hire them, the multinationals that offshore, ANY coutnry that doesn't offer transparency to their market as they have in ours (try selling fucking rice in Japan...look it up)

we're spending the $$$, we should get to call the Piper's tune

but we can't seem to even balance our National checkbook...we finance our National Mortgage with a daily Interest "credit card"...so hwo can i expect them to handle Trade Agreements to actually benefit Americans?

how can i expect criminals who come here illegally and the even worse criminals that hire them to be actually fucking Prosecuted for what they are doing...if not for the actual Laws they break...

then how about for the fucking HOMELAND SECURITY reasons that are aplenty?

free market...sure...but to work it needs to be fair and follow the Rules

currently it doesn't..on ANY level

nuff said?

Excelsior!

all bush supporters should go to iraq and come back in a sack.....