>>In the Bush Administration's blind zeal to take out Saddam, they opened up Pandora's Box -- and the evil cannot be put back.<<

Evil exposed is evil that can be fought, Shark.

And contrary to your claims of full-out Civil War, most factual accounts - facts being lacking in your report aside from the body count - indicate that basic civil society in Iraq is functioning better and better with each passing day.

As is the case in Israel, Iraqis have learned to rebuild their society while under constant threat of a low level of terrorism. And everyone should realize that the number of terrorist incidents may seem large when reported here in the US, but is relatively small when taken on a nationwide basis in a country the size of Iraq. If a bomb explodes in a Baghdad neighborhood less than 1/1000th of 1% of the population of the country is likely to be directly aware of it.

BTW, this 'worst day' of terrorist activity Shark cites, is the "Avenging Talafar" campaign, where Al Quaeda is striking back in its final battle named after the city where a huge nest of terrorists was eliminated recently with the help of informants from the local population who turned them in.

Al Quaeda is on its last legs in Iraq, down to almost entirely foreign fighters, reviled by Iraqis who were once at least ideologically sympathetic, and increasingly a force uniting Shia and Sunni together in agreement that foreign meddling in the country from extremist groups has to come to an end. Reports are that the leaders are in a bunker mentality, prepared for mass suicide and that their newer recruits are deserting and turning in their compatriots rather than die in this final battle.

This isn't a civil war, it's the Tet Offensive of the new millenium, where the unwanted invaders of Al Quaeda are making one last attempt to bring Iraq to its knees because their resources and most importantly what little support they had among everyday Iraqis is running out. Like the Tet Offensive it's a last, desperate effort aimed at a political victory which isn't going to come. The Tet Offensive was perfectly timed during an election in the US for maximum political impact. This 'Talafar Vengeance' operation is poorly timed, coming in the midst of the furor over Hurricane Katrina. No one is noticing, so the political impact is lost.

Talafar dealt such a serious blow to the terrorists that after this last suicidal effort it's unlikely they'll be able to continue being a major factor in Iraq.

Dave

EVIL! EVILDOERS BEWARE! Dave Nalle is pissed and he won't take it anymore! He's outraged at your pathetic communism and eating of babies.

I think BlogCritics.com will be responsible for Dave Nalle becoming a member of the GOP within 2 months.

That is all.

Jeez, where does the truth lie.
Shark's making wild eyed claims that Iraq has created millions of terrorists, Dave thinks assuming a mantle of calm reasonablity will dispel the fact that terrorism in Iraq has killed more U.S. soldiers than any foriegn army in thirty years, and that every lull has brought claims that the terrorism is subsiding, but...
When they run out of all of Hussien's bombs that we didn't secure in the invasion, then Iraq will settle down.
It's economy will be, for some time, dominated by 'tribal' systems of patronage, and the graft that goes with them, but maybe, maybe someday...
It's courts will be dominated by practitioners of Sharia, but there will be a democratic solution to that, I guess, though the this Supreme Judicial Council... well hopefully someday, maybe someday...
Even if it all turns out perfectly in Iraq, terrorists like the London bombers will continue to strike. Horrible but true.
On the other hand, the dreaded al-Queda network has had access to hundreds of would be martyrs and a seemingly endless supply of explosives in Iraq for two years, so far they've hit two Western targets, with no evidence that these operations started in or used ordinance smuggled out of Iraq. Luckily, our enemy is incapable of capitalizing on the huge tactical error we made handing them these resources.
Iraq will never be as good as Bushies hope or as bad I and others originally feared, al-Queda and their ilk aren't going away but they aren't even organized enough
to take advantage of the (for the scale they work at) bottomless well of weapons and martyrs in Iraq.
The truth seems to be between the extremes, as usual.
Bush is still an awful President though, Michael Brown?
I mean Jesus f*cking christ...

Dave, I hope you're right. I fear however that as soon as we leave, it's all going to fall apart. (Not that it's all that "together" right now.) Admittedly, there's no easy way out. If Bush could go back in time and undo Iraq -- he probably would, unless of course he's completely insance. Naturally, he can't admit this (i.e, his regret or his insanity) and continue to send people over there. Now Dave, can you please explain the "global strategy" that you're always talking about?

i don't understand why the bush administration continues to believe that occupying iraq will achieve anything. this war is benefiting iran more then it is the US. iraqs current government is not able to challenge religious figures sistani. fatwas rule the day. basra under the tyrant saddam was more democratic then it is currently under the mullahs. American forces have NO CHOICE but to retreat north to Kurdistan where the people regarded them as liberators and they can walk down the street without kevlar suits and M16s. kurds have their own government, they have kirkuk and they have one of the most capable fighting force in the region, the peshmerga. maybe i'm wrong about all of this and we should just continue on our current path.

Dave, you're dreaming and/or in denial -- but your dream is quickly turning into a nightmare.

Let's talk again in six months.

=====

ss: "...al-Queda network has had access to hundreds of would be martyrs and a seemingly endless supply of explosives in Iraq for two years, so far they've hit two Western targets, with no evidence that these operations started in or used ordinance smuggled out of Iraq. Luckily, our enemy is incapable of capitalizing on the huge tactical error we made handing them these resources."

Resources: you mean artillery bombs or human terrorists?

They've got plenty of both. I guess we'll see if you're right; I don't think they'll run out of large [Iraqi] artillery shells in years; as for humans willing to deliver them... how many young males are in Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc etc?

Re. Shark's "...a handful of Islamic terrorists has increased by the thousands -- if not millions..."

--by "millions", I'm saying the number of young Islamic males who might have been 'on the fence' prior to Iraq -- and who are, after ABU GHRAIB, lining up to take on the 'Great Satan'.

I guess we'll see.

Again, ss, let's meet here in six months and find out who is wearing the rose-colored gas mask.

BTW: We lost the 'war' in Iraq AND the 'war on terror' with Abu Ghraib.

They won't forget that for decades.

Abu Ghraib is already forgotten, Shark. The moslems expect it and halfway admire it. The reasonable part of the world understands that these things happen in war. The rest (aka Europeans) are increasingly irrelevant.

And yes, do let's talk in 6 months. I realize that not reading Iraqi newspapers and blogs regularly you don't have the perspective which I do, but eventually even you will come around.

For once SS's post is not too far off the mark. We're not going to get a perfect outcome in Iraq. We never would have. But something better than Saddam and better than the Mullahs in Iran will eventually develop, and it will be Iraqis who make it happen. Already we see the Iraqi military and police taking the lead role in pursuing terrorists. They're depending less and less on US forces, and it's working. Another positive sign for Shark to ignore.

Dave

shark:
Millions of kids in places like Indonesia putting a bin-Ladin poster
on the wall, while not good, and not what we should be shooting for, doesn't actually translate into a network that can do things like hit choke points in the world oil supply while prices are up, or bomb a chemical plant in America when it becomes clear a bunch of political appointees are running FEMA.
I'm not saying things are really going that well, I'm just saying our enemy has not shown an ability to capitalize on our mistakes. Doesn't mean they're going away, just makes them somewhat less dangerous.
All we can do is hope is it stays that way. I suspect it will.

Dave:
On the other hand, that means the only way they can do some day after day damage to us is if we go to them. I can't say, based on who the London bombers were, that I think spreading democracy stops the spread of terrorism, I can't say, comparing Pakistan's culpibility in creating terrorism and spreading WMD tech compared to Iraq's, that we made ourselves vulnerable to these daily attacks for any good strategic reasons, but...
It's already done, so I hope this works as well as it can for the Iraqis. Democracy is strong against dictatorship, but weak against tradition (at least here), and tradition will work against economic growth and personal freedom for everyone, especially women (check out the 2003 est. on female literacy rates in the CIA worldfactbook), in Iraq. Democracy's also not so great against community driven anarchy unless it can buy off the malcontents, at least that's what we ususally resort to in the West, but...
It has to better than Saddam, especially Saddam under the sanctions, especially Saddam under the sanctions in '94; and it almost has to be better than Iran.
Assuming it stays a slow boil civil war, and doesn't turn into a repeat of Lebanon. Which will remain a possibility, though a slim one, for years to come.
Still, skeptical as I am of our strategy, our true motivations, and what we'll be willing to settle for and spin in to victory, I too have been reading Iraqi blogs, and I hope this works as well as it can for those that want freedom and progress.

"...Millions of kids... putting a bin-Ladin poster on the wall... doesn't actually translate into a network that can do things like hit choke points in the world oil supply while prices are up, or bomb a chemical plant in America..."

Um, suffice it to say that I beg to differ.

BTW: one person can bring down a major American building with a rented truck and some fertilizer.

====

Dave, wishful thinking is not necessarily clear and/or realistic thinking.

Please resubmit your rose-colored delusions about the CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ when not under the influence of SOMA.

Thanks,
The Management

PS: Some of those 'new' Iraqi "police" and "military" you and Bush are so proud of are actually ad hoc Shiite execution squads doing a bit of 'freelance' work after hours.

Way ta go, George!

====

Security incidents in Iraq, Sept 15

U.S. and Iraqi forces are battling a Sunni Arab insurgency against the Shi'ite and Kurdish-led government in Baghdad.

BAGHDAD - A suicide bomber killed 15 police commandos and wounded 21 others in the Dora district of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - The bodies of three people shot dead were found in the Shula district of Baghdad, police said.

BAGHDAD - Three more bodies were found in the New Baghdad district. Police said they were also shot dead.

BAGHDAD - Three Shi'ite pilgrims heading to the southern city of Kerbala for a religious event were killed by gunmen in northern Baghdad, police said.

KIRKUK - Two policemen were killed and four were injured when a roadside bomb struck their patrol in Kirkuk, 250 km (150 miles) north of Baghdad, police said.

MOSUL - The preacher at a Shi'ite mosque was killed and three civilians were wounded when a bomb left at the front door of the mosque exploded in Mosul, 390 km (240 miles) north of Baghdad, eyewitnesses said.

BAGHDAD - At least nine policemen were killed and 17 wounded when two cars driven by suicide attackers struck their patrol in the Doura district in Baghdad.

HILLA - Sheikh Mehdi al-Attar, a senior official in the Shi'ite Dawa Party, was killed when gunmen attacked his vehicle near Hilla, 100 km (62 miles) south of Baghdad. A police source said three others were also killed in the attack.

BAQUBA - One policeman was killed when gunmen attacked an elite police unit in Baquba, north of Baghdad, police said.

LATIFIYA - A Shi'ite sheikh was found dead in Latifiya, a small town to the south of Baghdad. He was kidnapped by gunmen two days ago, one of his relatives said.

======

Security incidents in Iraq, Sept 16

U.S. and Iraqi forces are battling a Sunni Arab insurgency against the Shi'ite and Kurdish-led government in Baghdad.

BAGHDAD - Police said two labourers were killed and 12 wounded by gunmen while they were lining up to seek work in the eastern New Baghdad district.

BAGHDAD - A member of Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's office was gunned down by insurgents in Sadr City in northeast Baghdad. A police source said that Fadhil Ali al-Lami was a preacher at Imam Ali mosque. His two brothers were also wounded in the attack.

HASSWA - Three policemen were killed when a car bomb exploded near their patrol in the town of Hasswa, south of Baghdad, a police source said.

RAMADI - A U.S. soldier was killed by an explosion on Thursday in Ramadi, 110 km (70 miles) west of Baghdad, a U.S. military statement said on Friday.

=====

*Tet Offensive indeed.





* a reference to Vietnam!? From Pollyanna Nalle? Oh my...

Nalle: "...I realize that not reading Iraqi newspapers and blogs regularly you don't have the perspective which I do..."

Lord knows blogs are the epitome of truth and accuracy...

BTW: I'm a 5'8" tall, 34 year old blond Danish woman who enjoys fellatio and lavishing hordes of cash on unemployed American male sociopaths.

Please visit my blog.

I am here you are there; Don't try and comment on what you do not know about. Most soldiers are proud to be here protecting your right to have what you have. WMD who cares, More Iraqis have been killed by the terrorist than any WMD could have done. If you ask me the Terrorist are the new WMD. look at the trade centers wiped out by terrorist not WMD. Is that what you want is for us to lose more civilians in the US because we gave up our fight in Iraq? that is what you will get if they get set up here like they did in Afganistan.

=== After I posted comment #10 ===

"BAGHDAD -- (Friday, Sept 16) At least 25 people died, including 13 worshippers fatally injured by a suicide bomber outside a mosque...

Another 28 people were injured by the blast in the town of Tuz Khurmato 50 miles south of Kirkuk... most of the victims were followers of the Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

[for last three days:]

...The death toll stands at well over 200, including 114 day laborers killed by a suicide bomber posing as a potential employer on Wednesday.

Can I ask a hypothetical Reality Check question to the group?

What in the hell are we (the U.S.) going to do if/when full-blown civil war breaks out in Iraq between Sunnis and Shiites?

Are we there now?

If so, what in the hell are we doing about except holding down relatively small areas?

Isn't that what Hussein kinda sorta did, hold down Baghdad and his home Sunni region?

Lots of questions...

I find blogs can be great for asking questions and sharing opinion.

But a place for Truth and Unalterable Facts? Not so much.

MORE BAD NEWS on the ~shhhhhh, it's a civil war:

Abu Musab Zarqawi, the CEO of Al Kayda in Iraq, is now able to attract more Iraqi nationals.

U.S. and Iraqi government leaders are concerned because the Jordanian-born radical's group had been mostly made up of militants from other Arab countries.

But Zarqawi "is bringing more and more Iraqi fighters into his fold," a U.S. official told LA Times, adding that Iraqis accounted for "more than half his organization."

Info on Zarqawi's group were provided by three U.S. officials with access to classified intelligence data, the Times said.

Senior Iraqi officials agreed with the assessment.

=====

BTW: the full article in LA Times is even more grim than I can relate.

And to answer to "ss" -- who questioned my using "millions" to describe potential terrorsists caused in part by our invasion of Iraq;

== from the same LA Times article ===

"The CIA and other agencies have resisted pressure to provide an estimate of the number of insurgents in Iraq, partly out of concern that it would foster the impression that there is a finite population that can be stamped out."

[oy]

"Rather, officials said intelligence analysts had noted that there were about 800,000 to 1 million Iraqi Sunni Arab men of military age who represent the pool of potential insurgents."

Eric, we can barely secure the "Green Zone" in the heart of Baghdad.

Please don't ask about the rest of that country.

You know me, ambitious and all...

PS: Any questions about the Iraqi Disaster directed at DaveNalle automatically instigate flags to sprout out of his ears -- followed by a deluded fantasy accompanied by a J.P. Sousa March.

Everything is fine, according to Dave.

"The CIA and other agencies have resisted pressure to provide an estimate of the number of insurgents in Iraq, partly out of concern that it would foster the impression that there is a finite population that can be stamped out."

I was college/draft age, and many things about Iraq sound very similar to vietnam -- but aside from the number of GIs killed (so far, but the day is young!) Iraq is much worse, imo.

Vietnam just wanted to be left alone to become a little commie backwater; Iraq is a marketing tool for Al Kayda, and a training class for future urban guerrilla terrorists.

They're getting lots of practice driving cars loaded with bombs.

But thank gawd America doesn't have too many cars crammed on the streets of its major cities.

Whew! That was a close one!