At the last report, it was actually 5 on the tube and 2 on buses.
I wouldn't be surprised if now, the government expects everyone to fall into line on the issue of ID cards.
If they do, the terrorists have won already

sungoddess,

Stay safe and I hope all your friends and family are safe and sound. My thoughts are with you and your country.

Ron

Prayers are sent your way from here in the Colonies. Stay strong.

I woke up this morning hearing this on the news and I feel as sick as I did on 9/11.

These extremists killing in the name of some god...need to wipe out the bunch of them!

I just listened to Tony Blair a little while ago...at least it sounds like GB won't pull a Spain move and tuck tail and run...but then again...they never have before.

Unbelievable; they haven't even started to count the dead yet and people are lining up to tick off their knee-jerk reactions.

If you can't think of anything to say but to have a go at Spain, at least wait until the literal smoke has cleared, yes?

no

It's because of the reactions to things like this that spain pulled after the Madrid bombings that empowers these assholes to do this kind of thing! It makes them believe it works...and it did in spain

I am live blogging this as best I can. I live in Central London (work at home) but have lots of mates in the City. I was scheduled to attend a meeting tonight which I have been told is still on.

Its very upsetting what has happened...I feel for anyone who has relatives or friends in the City whom they do not know about.

thanks Andrew, please update us here when you can

The police have confirmed it was a terrorist attack and that the bus attack was probably suicide bomber.

Might I suggest you put all the London bombings posts together?

Yeah, we can lose MJ for this. Stay safe, Marty, and I'm praying for you guys over there.

I've just posted this on my blog ...

"Well it is still early days, but monitoring the coverage it seems that there were three bombs on the Tube and one on a bus, which may have been a suicide bombing. The death toll is likely to be at least in the scores, the count of serious injuries similar. The general mood is slight shock, covered by a gritty determination to get on with whatever needs to be done."

As someone who lives in central London, I think it is important not to get too carried away. It was horrific for the people directly affected, but there is no need for anyone else to get hysterical - that's what the attackers want. We all knew that it would happen sooner or later.

Londoners, thank God, have true grit. They've weathered many a storm in their history and this crisis, too, shall pass. In many ways the British people are far more resilient than we Americans. Makes one wonder if we should turn ourselves back over to the Crown. It seems that we've made a mess of things since we declared our independence.

Cripes, Silas, but then we'd be saddled w/fiscal support of Charles & Camilla & the rest of that dysfunctional crew. The Bushes are bad enough!

Yeah, but at least with Chuck and the Pony we get entertainment. What do the DoubleBush Twins have over Andy and Harry? Laura is the stereotypical librarian. Bushie is the stereotypical Texas short changed cowboy. (Short changed = small appendage)

Can we keep the partisan politics off of this thread, please?

Sorry, Phillip. Whether you believe it or not I am very distressed by what's happening in London this day.

I believe it -- I'm pretty sure we're all upset. I'd just like to keep the focus here where it belongs: on the people of London worried about there families and friends.

Thanks.

Yeah well its still a bit chaotic. Not surprisingly the two events I was planning to attend tonight have been cancelled. We shall see how long it will take to get things back to normal.

Andrew, how are things in the financial district? Do you know? We've been trying to phone folks we know over by Queen Victoria Street near Peter's Hill.

Wow. Reminds me of when I was living in London and the IRA hit the BBC Radio tower.

For what it's worth, as someone who's been in London during a terrorist attack, I can assure you that the city and its people are too great and too enduring to be much phazed by this attack.

Dave

Fatalities up to at least 40; 21 died on one tube train alone. They are not sure how many died on the bus yet.

unfortunately for us british citizens, these terrorists have given Blair a double blessing.
Firstly, he now has a "get outta jail free" card for if the G8 summit doesn't achieve anything re: africa, as he can now say "i wasn't there because i came back due to the bombings"
Secondly, he now has a perfect excuse to help push his freedom-quashing waste-of-time-and-money ID cards
Ya gotta love those terrorists...

Yes, but about the latter...I think he will be have to very careful about the timing of his taking advantage of this event. He does it to early there will be a monster backlash.

It was mentioned that today is the opening trial of Abu Hamza, a Muslim cleric wanted in both the UK and the US for ties to terrorists.

I wonder why all the stops hit were on the Yellow line?

Perhaps the yellow line was hit because these terrorists are nothing but yellow cowards who have no idea why they are even fighting their little war.

My first thought this morning, after my stomach had returned from my toes back to its usual position, was that Londoners -- between the Live 8 concert and the Olympics announcement -- were too happy for Al-Qaeda's woeful wankers to stand it. This brings back that sunny morning of Sept. 11 to me: New York is my US hometown; abroad, London is my home city. Man, this hurts. Right now, I am trying to track down one of my best friends. And terrified. And sick. And angry. How many times have I trundled mindlessly along in the tube... walked through a couple of the very stations that were hit. Yeah, they are cowards. Cowards. Goddess bless us all, and particularly those in the UK, those who were family and friends of those killed or wounded. Let peace reign... not retaliation, but peace.

Quoting Dan Fogelberg, "How much blood upon this earth must spill before we lay our weapons down?"

People who set off civilian-killing bombs in London are clueless, terrorist, yellow cowards.

People who blow up civilians in Baghdad by dropping "smart bombs" and cruise missles on them aren't much different.

imagine if there were no more governments or religion~~

nothing to die FOR...

you may say I'm a dreamer ~~

but I'm not the only one......

Valery, your point is well taken. That being said, I wonder if this Administration did us a service by putting this fight into terror's back yard. I never considered this point until today. Had the Bush Administration not gone into Afghanistan and Iraq, how do we know that terrorists would not have brought even more tragedy to our soil? How do we know that the tragedies of Madrid and London would not have happened sooner or have been on a grander scale? By going into Iraq perhaps the West made a strategic move to divert terror away from our land. Is it not possible that placing our military might in the heartland of terror has caused the terror network to weaken? I'm not convinced that the Bush Administration was completely honest with us when it comes to its motivation for invading Iraq. But, somehow, after serious contemplation of today's events, I am not entirely convinced that it was a mistake.

Now, now, that song is overrated...

That song was a cliche from day 1. Lennon was already sliding into bathos at that point.

But, Natalie, All You Need Is Love.

How much blood upon this earth must spill before we lay our weapons down?

What you mean, "we," white man? (to throw out the punchline first...

I'm not sure you understood my point, Silas. Terrorism is a homemade bomb detonated on a bus packed with civilians, or a hightech explosive from a Stealth bomber dropped on a bus packed with civilians.

Spot on, Dr. Pat, but those were Fogelbeg's words. I was going to quote more of the song, but there was a "chickens come to roost" message behind them and I really don't want to go there today. Today, I want to concentrate on finding my friend and comforting others.

Mr. Kain, the song may be cliched, but all the world needs is love. Unfortunately, there is too much hatred from today's murderous crew, from the Bushites, etc., etc., ad nauseum. And as for "Imagine," however overrated and bathetic some may find it, I thoroughly believe in it and its message.

Oh I understand your point quite well, Valery. Terrorism takes on many forms. Again, I pose the question: just how much worse would the terrorist acts have been since September 11 had this Administration not gone into Afghanistan and Iraq? We'll never know for sure but somehow in my heart I believe that things could have been much worse in the West had we sat by and done nothing.

Ms. Davis, I too believe in the somg Imagine. So mich so that I have a picture of the Imagine mosaic from Central Park's Strawberry Fields on my wall. Imagine, for one moment, if everyone just laid their weapons down and gave peace a chance.

Yeah, imagine that. To my mind, that idea is anything but overrated.

>>I wonder why all the stops hit were on the Yellow line?<<

It may or may not be significant, but the Yellow Line is one used by a lot of Muslims who work in central London to get to the neighborhoods where they live. The goal of these attacks may well have been to terrorize moderate muslims.

Dave

All the more reason for moderate Muslims to come forward to assist the rest of the civilized world in the attempt to eradicate this reign of cowardly terror.

My answer your question is...Who knows?

Perhaps we'd begin to understand why innocent people are being killed now if we did a body count, by nationality, starting from 1946.

Join us, Hindus to fight the global war on terror.

Bikram, thank you for mentioning the Hindus. People in America don't realize the terror inflicted upon Hindu women in Pakistan by Islamic fundamentalists. These barbarians thought nothing of raping and terrorizing Hindu women for the sake of sport. Many good Hindu people were subjected to such torture and shame that they felt they had no choice but to convert to Islam just to survive. Hindus are, by nature, a pacifist group. It's sad that the Abrahamic religions have shadowed all the good that exists in Hindu theology. We could learn so much from Hindu teaching.

I think to understand the roots of Islamic terrorism a good starting point might be the 16th century, rather than 1946.

This should be obvious: It started with oppression and violence.

Hindus pacifistic? You may be thinking of Budhits, Silas. Read up on the Kshatriya sometime, or the history of some of the Hindu warrior movements of the past like the Rajputs.

Read this.
http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/castekshatriya.html

I think the British of the 19th century would also agree that Hindus are anything but pacifistic. Some of the most warlike people on earth have been Hindus.

Dave

Dave Nalle, Weren't the "Hashishins" (Assasin being derived originally from the term Hashishin)of Hindu origin as well? Curious and thought you might know.

Actually, Dave, the majority of Hindus are pacifists. Just as with Islamic groups there are sects within Hinduism which are quite violent. But there are groups of Hindus who have been mercilessly persecuted in places like Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Ghandi was .... ? And leader of .... ?

Killed by one ... ?

Quiz Time 4 abbreviated version

Every major world religion teaches peace, yet believers from every religion fail to uphold this teaching of their own faith, becoming thereby far more effective enemies and destroyers of their own religions than any persecutor or crusader could ever hope to be.

Even the Buddhists have fallen into this self-destructive trap from time to time.

Atheism and agnosticism offer no guarantees against this universal human failing of violence.

(To answer Temple, Gandhi was a Hindu, was called "Great Soul" by Hindus and others, and was killed by a Hindu. This shows the Hindu faith has the power to inspire saints, but not the power to render murder impossible. In this it is just like all the other great faiths.)

but Victor...they're not teaching peace...that's the whole problem...they're teaching hate...they're teaching hate the west...and they're teaching die for your cause and you'll be rewarded in the afterlife...that's just sick!

Do not let yourself be fooled, Andy. It is only the terrorists who want to see division between the peace-loving peoples who are the vast majority in both the Islamic world and the Christian world.

Any leader who fails to teach peace, fails to teach Islam.

well apparently there are a lot of failures out there...there seems to be a never ending supply of young people willing to strap a bomb to the ass and die for the cause...

so either there failing to get a message of hope and peace across or they're succeeding in getting a message of enough hate to be willing to die for...

Ian, You make a valid point....

I remember after 9/11, the press and broadcast media were swooning Arafat and denouncing Israeli politics in the Palestine.

Bin Laden sends in the crew and suddenly the whole parlance changes...Immediately.

Arafat looked absolutely awash during a followup press conference. He looked shocked, in disbelief, utterly confused.

Why? Because on 9/10 he was at the top of his political game. He had the press on his side... globally he was self assured of the conscience of the world... 9/11 the whole thing fell along with the WTC.

It was amazing to watch. No coordination between the groups, independent agendas...

In all fairness, Temple, Yitzak Rabin a Jew, killed by a Jew. Anwar Sadat a Muslim Egyptian killed by a Muslim. Ghandi, a Hindu, killed by a Hindu. Rabin and Sadat were men of peace as well as Ghandi.

Back to Comment #31. No one seems to want to tackle what I asked. So, overall, was entering Iraq a mistake? Was it prudent of this Administration to move the focus of the war on terror back into terror's breeding ground so as to divert attacks in the West? Anti Bush people are remarkably quiet on my point. I don't know how I feel just yet but to be honest I am leaning toward the belief that in the end, the Bush Administration was smart in taking this battle to Iraq.

ok Silas, i left it alone because you grouped Afghanistan with Iraq

but now you separate the two..

Afghanistan is where our efforts belong..no other military conflict should have been begun until that one was finished..

what do i mean by finished?..

the last of the Taliban captured/destroyed

bin Laden and al Qaeda captured/destroyed

the country, as a whole, not just the capitol, brought under democratically elected Afghani control, politically

as i have stated in other places here on BS, the timetable for Iraq made NO sense form a military/strategic standpoint, only from a political one

there was NO real excuse to send in a force that was adequate to take the country, but woefully inadequate to hold it...proof of this can be found in all the video footage of the looting that occured agter the fall of Saddam..Rumsfeld's reaction "freedom is messy"

more proof, to this day, they still cannot control the borders of Iraq, not even the road from Bahgdad to the airport is secure...on the bright side, our Troops are getting more of the armor and supplies they require now than they did previously...

my point there is that there was NO reason for them toeven be there without proper equipment, manpower, and supplies...there was NO "clear and present danger" or iminent "threat"..Iraq was contained, and had been since the first Gulf War

part of the reasoning behind Iraq has always been to "keep the terrorists there and not here"...i say to you, did today's events in London, or the Madrid bombings, or other al Qaeda attacks in the last 2 years, prove or disprove that fallacious "theory"?

finish the Task in Afghanistan, destroy the Taliban and al Qaeda, capture bin Laden and Mullah Omar...spend some of those billions (like the 9 billion in cash completely lost ni Iraqm according to the GAO reports) on building up the Afghani's, so their main cash crop doesn't have to be heroin poppies

very difficult to do now, with th econsequences fo this Administrations policies in Iraq

my Question to those that defend those Policies, do you honestly beleive they have worked? do you honestly think that Iraq should have been started before the Task in Afghanistan was completed?

until you have bin Laden and Mullah Omar ( who is in possesion of the "cloak of Mohammed") either captured, or proven dead...then the cells and allies of al Qaeda will continue to grow and pursue their unHoly cause of killing civilians

we must now deal with the two visible fronts of Afghanistan and Iraq..the latter because we "broke" it

it is the "invisible" front that appears to be the most crucial after today's events

just my Opinion , based on the facts at hand...i hope that helps

Excelsior!

Of course, I don't support any violence, but Mr. Marx's position appears to be the most logical for those who do. If one is going to go to the trouble of bombing and attacking Afghanistan and killing Afghanis and attempting to capture bin Laden and members of the Taliban, it is at least illogical to move on to new killing fields before the first job is completed.

>>f one is going to go to the trouble of bombing and attacking Afghanistan and killing Afghanis and attempting to capture bin Laden and members of the Taliban, it is at least illogical to move on to new killing fields before the first job is completed.<<

Any excuse to avoid involvement in and responsibility for Iraq. Any excuse to avoid dealing with the real fact that terrorism is more than just Bin Laden. Any excuse to blame Bush and second guess his policies. Any excuse to minimize America's role and responsibility in the world. Any excuse to find America wrong and condemn and deride.

Dave

and to Mr Nalle...

any excuse to distract from the Administrations mistakes

any excuse to conceal the fact of sending our troops into war inadequately prepared

any excuse to cover and distract from the Fact that bin Laden has yet to be captured

any excuse to distract from the fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11

any excuse to distract from the fact that the theory of keeping the "terrorists over there and not here" just miserably failed with bombs going off in London

any excuse to distract from the fact that resources used in Iraq are NOT bein gused to stop terrorists , including those in London

any excuse for this Administration to not accept Reponsibility for anything they do wrong or make a mistake over...

on and on

rather than bitching, perhpas you migh twant to take your tongue out of the Shrub's ass a second and look at the real picture...yes, we need to deal with Iraq, we broke it, we must now fix it...it is our Responsibility now

but the same is true in Afghanistan...you know, where the Taliban and bin Laden still roam free, the number 1 exporting nation of heroin poppies...the hidin gplace of the leaders that may very well have planned the London bombings, if not directly, then likely trained those who did...

but , instead..you would just have us say "everything is fine" and spend more money

fuck that...i demand that our government do what it is supposed to do, that it takes Responsibility for it's action, that it is accountable..and i , for one, won't be distracted by smoke and mirrors...especially when that smoke comes from cordite, and the mirrors are the glassy eyes of dead civilians

and guess what?.."the buc stops here"

i don't blam ethe Shrub for toda's bombings...what ui blame him for is NOT doing all he can to stop shit like this...and before you try and tell me sdifferently, how many months did he spend travelling to his loyalty oath pledging town halls trying to push his SS package?

on and on

spare me the crying that he has been busy...i thoght we were at fucking WAR here...if so, i would expect no less than 18 hour days , ulcers and the tossing aside of all the petty bullshit to work towards the primary goal

stopping terrorists...catching bin Laden and those others responsible for 9/11

can you honestly sit there and tell me you truly believe the Shrub has been single mindedly obsessed with nothing but this goal?

nope...his own words "I think about it every day"

yeah, well , our soldiers die because of it every day...

may they not do so in vain

Excelsior!

>>can you honestly sit there and tell me you truly believe the Shrub has been single mindedly obsessed with nothing but this goal?<<

He does have other responsibilities, but IMO he has been paying attention to the war on terror quite a bit, with the result of neglecting his other responsibilities. His domestic agenda has been totally neglected because of the aftermath of 9/11, and my biggest regret is that he's made so little progress on the good ideas which got me to vote for him over my usual libertarian third-placer in the first place.

>>but , instead..you would just have us say "everything is fine" and spend more money<<

No, everything is NOT fine, but burying your head in the sand, appeasing the terrorists and blaming Bush isn't going to solve any of the problems. The whole 'blame Bush' movement is a mass effort to evade taking any responsibility or accept the reality of the international situation we're dealing with.

Dave

Some good points in there, Mr. Marx, but to be fair, Mr. Nalle doesn't strike me as being a Bush toady at all. And he certainly can't be characterized as having his tongue in the Shrub's ass.

Gonzo likes his hyperbole. I just ignore it.

As for being Bush's toady, I just identify with him a little bit and think he has been given a raw deal by all of those who condemn him.

But do I love him - hardly. I'd like to see someone in the white house who's a lot more hard nosed and forceful than Bush is. I liked him originally because he was a great deal maker. But he's been thrust into a situation which runs counter to those skills. We need someone more like Andrew Jackson who'll do what needs to be done whatever the cost to his own reputation.

Dave

and where do i speak of appeasement..??

try not to put words in my mouth, i am quite capable of using my own...k?

as for "taking responsibility"...fuck you

i AM taking responsibility, by asking Questions, by making my Thoughts known to my elected respresentatives, but standing against what i think are incorrect and erroneus parts of those Policies...and in genreal, doing what a responisble Citizen should be doing..Questioning...not foloowing blindly...supporting what i think is correct (such as our Troops in the field), and denoucing what i think is incorrect (such as th eUS hiring mercenary soldiers, or shipping people off to Syria for "questioning"..doubt it?..check CBC...the US took one of their citizens last month, and sent him, in chains , to Syria...due process?)
as for "domestic agenda"...isn't "bankruptcy reform", an Rx program that is written to NOT allow the government or it;s agents to negotiate or collective bargain for prices, class action suits being taken out of the state courts and, ou yeah, tax cuts enough?

instead, you Mr Nalle, keep tossing out things like "appeasement" ..please show me where that one comes from on this Thread?

as for evading the international situation..who got us there?

do you seriously think that N Korea or Iran would have their panties in such a tight twist without the whole "axis of evil" speech?

but you go on with your distortions, defense of the Administration, obvious lack of Understanding for military strategy, and apologetics for those Responsible for much of this

me?..i want to see bin Laden's head on a pike

i would like to see our Troops arrive home safely after they receive what they need to get Afghanistan and Iraq on the road to self government

i would like to see it made illegal for the US government to hire mercenaries

i woudl like to see those Responsible for revealing the name of a covert Intelligence Operative to suffer the fullest penalties of the Law

i would like to see some serious, non-partisan , investigations into many of the issues of the last 5 years

i realize much of that will not happen..but i do accept my civic Responsibility to try and make it so...

so, spare me the feeble attempts at buzz words and distractions...eh?

Excelsior!

You mean what you think needs to be done. Personally, I blame Bush for the things for which I believe he is responsible, but much of this mess began long before he was born. Many of the policies put into place during his term in actuality came from others. It would be most unfair to blame Shrubby alone for that. And no, I don't hate the man at all and don't condone hating him.

Gonzo, please don't assume that every single thing I say is about you - that's a bit egotistical.

>>instead, you Mr Nalle, keep tossing out things like "appeasement" ..please show me where that one comes from on this Thread?<<

Appeasment is an issue here, even if you aren't one of the appeasers. If you're going to go against the idea of the war on terror - which I'm not saying is your position - then appeasment is more or less what you're left with.

>>as for evading the international situation..who got us there?<<

Terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and the UN for not effectively dealing wiht Saddam Hussein.

>>do you seriously think that N Korea or Iran would have their panties in such a tight twist without the whole "axis of evil" speech?<<

Absolutely. Probably even more so.

>>but you go on with your distortions, defense of the Administration, obvious lack of Understanding for military strategy, and apologetics for those Responsible for much of this<<

Do please point to some examples of this, because as far as I can recall I've never done any of it.

>>me?..i want to see bin Laden's head on a pike<<

On that we can at least agree.

>>i would like to see our Troops arrive home safely after they receive what they need to get Afghanistan and Iraq on the road to self government<<

Which won't happen with a unilateral withdrawal, which is what you effectively endorse when you join in with those who attack the administration on an emotional and irrational basis.

>>i would like to see it made illegal for the US government to hire mercenaries<<

Why? It's a great way for some of our best ex-soldiers to earn a better living. Don't they deserve to get paid comensurate to their skills?

>>i woudl like to see those Responsible for revealing the name of a covert Intelligence Operative to suffer the fullest penalties of the Law<<

Who would that be, exactly? Valerie Plame wasn't a covert operative.

>>i would like to see some serious, non-partisan , investigations into many of the issues of the last 5 years<<

I'm all for investigations where they are merited, but it seems to me that the 'hate bush' crowd want to investigate everything and don't know where to draw the line. There are issues worth investigating and issues where investigation is pointless and serves no purpose except to advance someone's political career. Most of the proposed investigations fall into the later category. Those that don't probably WILL be investigated.

Dave

i say...
*>>i would like to see our Troops arrive home safely after they receive what they need to get Afghanistan and Iraq on the road to self government<<*

then Mr Nalle sez...
*Which won't happen with a unilateral withdrawal, which is what you effectively endorse when you join in with those who attack the administration on an emotional and irrational basis.*

please point out where i have said anyting about a unilateral withdrawl?...in fact, you can easily find where my position is the opposite, ..i have clearly stated that i think we do not have enough resources to do the Task proerly, and that our Troops are/were endagered by being sent into Iraq on a political timetable, rather than a strategic one


as for 9/11 getting us where we are in the INternational scen..you get partial credit..but when you state drivel such as
*Absolutely. Probably even more so.*

when i am speaking of N Korea and Iran..let me remind you a bit of recent History..up until the "axis of evil" fiasco..there were video monitors and inspectors in the N Korean nuclear facility...those were sent away and turned off in reaction to the "axis of evil" speech....extrapolate from there as you like..but those ARe the Facts...

as for Iran...that is a much more difficult case...but this past weeks election of a very hardline new President , goes against the more progressive gains they had made in recent years...is that the mullah's reacting to current US policies?..perhaps...perhaps not...but the country was much more quiescent and headni gtowards a more open and secular government before the "axis of evil" speech

my whole point in bringing that up was to show a clear example of consequences due to un-neededly heavy rhetoric that served no real diplomatic purpose on the international scene...but did serve a crass domestically political purpose by tossing red meat to the GOP base

as for mercenaries... many better way to make a living than killing for a Corporation...for security/defense is one thing...it's interesting that the story from 2-3 weeks ago, of 9 mercs arrested by the Marines for firing randomly into buildings, and even towards the marine checkpoint, never got much traction...hopefully it was just some kind of mistake

i still say it is ethically wrong for the U.S. to employ corporate mercenaries...that's what we have a military for

as for Valerie Plame...yes, she was a covert operative according to the Record as i understand it, and "outing" her is a federal crime....

on and on

but i see there is no use in attempting discussion on many of these topics

makes me wonder what the fuck i am doing here

Excelsior!

Gonzo, my friend, your presence here is a bright spot in my blogger day. We may not agree on everything but your passion for your beliefs inspires me. While many think I am psychotic for my affection for Ronald Reagan, I immediately point out that the thing I loved about him the most was his consistency. That's what you are, sir. You are consistent. We always know the point of view from which you come. I respect that. It's when opposing views turn to inconsistent behavior that problems begin. Two people can be on opposite sides of an issue but at the end of the day come together for a drink or toke. Again look at Reagan and Tip O'Neil.

Again, Gonzo. When I make a general comment it doesn't mean it's directed at you. You're not the one pushing for appeasement or unilateral withdrawal, but that's what many are pushing for, so they are the ones who need to be addressed.

>>when i am speaking of N Korea and Iran..let me remind you a bit of recent History..up until the "axis of evil" fiasco..there were video monitors and inspectors in the N Korean nuclear facility...those were sent away and turned off in reaction to the "axis of evil" speech....extrapolate from there as you like..but those ARe the Facts...<<

But you can't connect that speech with the increasing difficulties with North Korea. The fact is that the North Korean regime was already unstable and uncooperative and getting moreso, and that's why Bush identified it as a problem.

>>as for Iran...that is a much more difficult case...but this past weeks election of a very hardline new President , goes against the more progressive gains they had made in recent years...is that the mullah's reacting to current US policies?..perhaps...perhaps not...but the country was much more quiescent and headni gtowards a more open and secular government before the "axis of evil" speech<<

Again, all speculation. That one speech isn't going to determine the outcome of Iran's election. And the fact is that Iran IS the real hub of the axis of evil, and remains so, perhaps even more so than it was when Bush said it. Are we supposed to pretend that Iran's not the real problem and hope they'll go away?

>>my whole point in bringing that up was to show a clear example of consequences due to un-neededly heavy rhetoric that served no real diplomatic purpose on the international scene...but did serve a crass domestically political purpose by tossing red meat to the GOP base<<

I believe that sending a clear sign to these terroristic regimes that we're fully aware of what they really are puts them on notice that we're not going to tolerate their behavior. In essence I think that's a good thing. I don't see the value in trying to placate and butter up insane regimes.

>>as for mercenaries... many better way to make a living than killing for a Corporation...for security/defense is one thing...it's interesting that the story from 2-3 weeks ago, of 9 mercs arrested by the Marines for firing randomly into buildings, and even towards the marine checkpoint, never got much traction...hopefully it was just some kind of mistake<<

I may be biased in favor of mercenaries, because I have known several and they were all good people who I have respect for. I'm not as fond of some of the work they were set to doing by the CIA and other groups - especially in association with the War on Drugs. I'm also not sure that all mercenaries are of the same level of quality - I think it depends largely on who they are working for and what their hiring standards are. And BTW, the pay and benefits really are pretty respectable, especially when compared to regular army salaries.

>>i still say it is ethically wrong for the U.S. to employ corporate mercenaries...that's what we have a military for<<

Except that there are things the military can't and won't do, and really shouldn't be expected to do - like attacking drug lords within a sovereign foreign nation with only unofficial acknowledgement from the government there.

>>as for Valerie Plame...yes, she was a covert operative according to the Record as i understand it, and "outing" her is a federal crime....<<

As I read the records on the case she had been a covert operative at one time, but was acting primarily as an analyst at the time she was outed. That's certainly the belief Novak has repeatedly stated he was operating under.

>>but i see there is no use in attempting discussion on many of these topics<<

Not if you keep taking it all so personally rather than trying to work towards the truth by exchanging thoughts reasonably.

Dave

Your post was quoted in my Weekly BlogScan, this week titled "Live from the London Blasts." To read your citation and join in the commentary, please visit BlogCritics.

Rumor has it Osama bin Laden is a Jew! and whole holy war thing is nothing but a plot to make Muslims chattel slavery ...

Terrorism has its root which is bad education in some less developed countries

Wow... I posted this and never looked back. AMAZED at the number of comments.