Al,Where do the "Rastafarians" place on
your lists of Mainstream VS Illegitimate
Religions? Curious.

The Mormons rate with the Scientologists
in my book, but I live within spitting
distance of Utah.I have been overexposed
to their doctrine, so it's a kinda sorta
personal thang.

How is Wicca not a mainstream religion? It's recognized for tax exemption by the IRS. What other qualification is there in the US? Plus I daresay there are more Wiccans than there are members of many Christian sects.

As for this judge, he's obviously very confused. If both parents are Wiccans and presumably one of them has custody of the child, why are the religious preferences of the school even relevant? If the parochial school doesn't like the child being a Wiccan they can expel him. There are other private schools - even parochial schools - which won't care.

Dave

I definitely give Mormons the benefit of the doubt. They're not as old as some of the other groups, but they rate pretty high on the list for working and playing well with others. This definitely distinguishes them from the heavy handed Scientologists.

Rastafarians seem pretty cool, but I've never known any personally, so I have limited basis of knowledge.

Dave, the problem does not appear to be at all with the Catholic school. The board in question is some kind of consultant group to the court.

Al, I would include the current Republican Party, as hijacked by its Evangelical Talibans, under illegitimate belief systems.

To simply lump Islam into the category of "Illegitimate BS" seems remarkably unfair. Certainly there are subgroups of any religion which would fit into that category. These groups, however, are generally in the minority and shouldn't serve to define an entire faith. The Nation of Islam, for example, has very little to do with the actual faith of Islam. Also, let's not forget that for an "illegitamate" belief system, Islam happens to be the world's second largest religion, and some experts predict that if it continues to grow at it's current rate, it will become the largest sometime this century.

good to see big Al showing what acceptance of personal Liberty is about

JuJu,whose feces Fertilize the World, is most Pleased...

http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com

under Construction...but go ahead and say hello....i double dog dare ya!

Excelsior!

Wiccan thread

>>Dave, the problem does not appear to be at all with the Catholic school. The board in question is some kind of consultant group to the court.<<

If the Catholic School didn't bring the issue up, who has standing to even bring this into court? Normally in this kind of idiocy it's the grandparents, but I see no mention of them in the article.

Dave

While I don't personally view Wicca as a real religion, but instead more of a bizarre lifestyle, just who in the hell does this idiot judge think he is?

If I get married, have a kid, and want to instill in him/her the "strongly-held religious belief" that all life came from the Maytag repairman, and that the Universe is only 14 years old, who has the right to say that I can't? Answer: NO ONE!

Yep, idiot judge. Although I'm pleased that Quakers ended up on your 'Mainstream Belief System' list (go Quakers), I'm interested to hear the reasoning behind your placement of Islam on the 'Illegitimate BS' list.

Once again, my work anticipates the news.

I know just how confusing the dichotomy between the Catholicism and Wicca can be :)
That's why I wrote my articles Catholicism vs. Witchcraft Parts I and II.

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/05/03/072724.php

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/05/19/181950.php

Judge Bradford, I dedicate these works to you.

It has to be noted that one person's "Mainstream Belief System" is another's "Illegitimate BS". A belief system is a personal issue and whether you worship the Great Pumpkin, God, Allah, or the stale grilled cheese in your refrigerator, your beliefs are your own and are certainly neither "mainstream" or "illegitimate BS". Once an individual forces or, in this Judge's case, forbids someone from a certain belief system THAT is when the boundaries are crossed. Faith is a personal issue and should not be the responsibility of anyone except the individual. I question the motives of your decision to put Islam into your "Illegitimate BS" category, as it is one of the world's major religions. The Koran is quite an interesting and poetic read. I suggest you read it if you have not already. Fanaticism is prevalent in all belief systems and if you are basing your decision to include it on the "BS" list, then I would also include Christianity, Judaism and the like as they all include their own versions of fanatical nutcases.

Now Adam, that's just silly. Even your hardcore James Dobson is no kind of Taliban. You may thoroughly disagree with the political agenda of some of these people, but they are not theocratic. They are not really that harsh. There's just no legitimate comparison between Pat Robertson and Iranian mullahs.

Fred Phelps would rate ranking in the illegitimate BS column with his God Hates Fags website and such, but he has no access or influence within the Christian community or with Republican leaders.

Islam made the illegitimate BS list on the basis of not working and playing well with others. This is not necessarily a knock on the Quran. Further, someone more knowledgeable might break out some specific sects of Islam that are more sociable.

Bastarda, note that there are some Christian sects on the BS list. At that though, no Christian sect today is in a league with some of the Muslims for violent, anti-social foolishness. I'm putting the Jehovah's Witnesses in the BS list, but they're merely annoying. They're not commiting, funding, or tacitly supporting violence against non-believers.

I enjoy lots of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. They always have really pretty pictures in the Watchtower of life after God pulls the curtain on it all -- happy smiley people hugging tigers.

Well, perhaps I was being a little harsh in placing Jehovah's Witnesses on the BS list.

Al:

I've met a few JWs, and while they tend to be annoying in their proselytizing, and are usually irrational peaceniks, they don't seem to do any real harm.

JW's remind me why I'm glad I have a security gate.

Dave

What about having NO belief system: a nonbelief system? What category does that fall under?

Gee, I wonder what the self-appointed gods and godesses of Domestic Relations would do with us and our seven kids should we ever have the distinct misfortunue to fall under their radar.

Hmm.

On the upside, I supposed, we don't "confuse" our kids anymore, like all those years we spent attending Catholic Church (they wouldn't marry us) one week and the Moravian Church (they did marry us) the next (another BS you failed to categorize, along with Hinduism).

Hey, I thought letting kids see separate views was healthy. Isn't that what they call "balance?" To deny children balance should be what judges call into question; to deny balance is called indoctrination.

I'd say the Wiccan, Catholic & Unitarian combo was fine if they parents were okay with it. Yup. Choosing a child's religion isn't up to a judge, but there are certainly lots of people who do think it's up to them.

Try adoption caseworkers and employees of any department of CPS (Child Protective Services), for starters.

Oh yeah, and putting Islam under "Illegitimate BS?" I agree with those waiting to hear your reasoning on that one. Now, that just smacks of personal prejudice, to me.

Other religions to add to your list: Ba'Hai (not sure of spelling); Bretheran in Christ; Mennonite; Pagan; Branch Davidian, Moravian, Eastern Orthodox, Hinduism, and tens of dozens more around the world.

Mennonite?..hey, leave the Amish alone, they don't bother anyone

neither do most Pagan's or Hindu's

but then again, there is room for All under the shade of JuJu's, may his acreage of flesh be free form the mites of Intolerance, ears...

nuff said?

Excelsior1

Ok I am going to just put this out there. My grammer is worse than a B-rated horror flick but who cares as long as I say what I want. First you make the comment that there are christianity religions listed in your illegitimate list. I was rasied a southern baptist and not one of those religions is considered christian.

Second, if you want to break down to two lists of religions still practiced today where are the following: Methodist, Luthern, Protestant, Celtic, Odinists, Voodoo, Satianists, Holy rollers, and many more religions that even I don't know or recall off the top of my head.

I think that if you want to go as far to seperate the religions for legitimate to illegitimate or non-pagan vs. pagan than you really need to do two things. 1. review your list of mainstream religions because at least five of them are considered pagan. 2. You really need to include all practiced religions not just what you can remember.

Growing up I have always heard one thing about wits and battles. I refuse to have a battles of wits with an unarmed person. I think you need to retract you statement and collect all your ammunition before you start firing the gun of mainstream vs. non-mainstream religions.

"Second, if you want to break down to two lists of religions still practiced today where are the following: Methodist, Luthern, Protestant, Celtic, Odinists, Voodoo, Satianists, Holy rollers, and many more religions that even I don't know or recall off the top of my head."

I'm not a religious expert, but aren't all Christian faiths that AREN'T Catholic or EASTERN ORTHODOX considered Protestant?

Or, in the case of Scientology, a cult?

Al:

Islam made the list for not working and playing well with others?!?!?! If that be your reasoning, Christianity needs to be moved over there. Need I remind you of the Crusades, the thousand years of Pogroms and "ethnic cleansing" the Catholic Church instilled upon those who would not fold into its masses? NO religion works or plays well with others as they are constantly playing the timeless sandbox game of "My god can beat up your god".
As far as no Christian sects being involved in violent anti-social foolishness one can look to people like David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, Randall Terry and the countless "bombers for god" who like to light up Planned Parenthoods in the name of good ol' Christianity. Using these examples, does Christianity also not fall into the "does not play well with others category?"
BUT!!! You cannot blame the actions of lunatics and their misguided faith on their religion as a whole. If you are condemning Islam based on those few who do not "play well with others", then you should also condemn those listed in the "Mainstream" category as well, as they harbor individuals with the same characteristics.

But most Christians publicly and privately deplore the actions of people who, for example, bomb abortion clinics.

Muslims, however, seem to have a very difficult time denouncing attacks on America, Israel, Christians, Jews, Hindus, gays, and non-virgin women...

Bastarda, you're all over the place here. McVeigh was not religious. David Koresh was not violent. The feds ran in on him all crazy with little or no provocation. Nor do I see countless "bombers for god" coming from the Christian side. It's more like a couple of lone losers, with no significant support network. They're rare, and heartily condemned by 99.9% of Christians.

Yes, the Catholic church has definitely had historic periods of not working and playing well with others. Far be it from me to whitewash the sins of cat lickers. However, post enlightenment influence has largely housetrained Christians sufficient to be accepted in civil society over the last few hundred years.

In practice and fairness, I'm judging the religions primarily by the practices of those adherents now living. Whatever historical ill behavior you may wish to emphasize by the Catholic church does not change the fact that the lion's share of pure wicked terrorist violence in the world today comes from Islamic extremists.

This does not mean that all Muslims or every sect is bad, but the whole worldwide terror and hatred reflect badly on all Muslims. Stuff like these stupid deadly Korangate riots looks bad on the family. It just does- whether that suits your political predispositions or not.

All of this in the name of religion? The judge legislated from the bench but the fundies will say that he was righteous in his decision. That a bunch of hooey.

Dobson has more in common with the Taliban than a preacher like Billy Graham. We're so busy fighting off the fire and brimstone that we've forgotten how to live in peaceful coexistence.

In fairness Silas, I have not heard even one Christian come to this judge's defense.

Al:

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree in this matter, although your "cat licker" comment had me laughing so that I spewed my coffee all over the place. Though I agree that there are overtly visible terrorists activities carried out in the name of Islam, I cannot ignore the guerilla tactics our current White House administration has been using in the name of Chirstianity. Sometimes a legislative "bomb" is far worse than a real one exploding. The faith based legislation being discussed and passed in this country, to me, is a form of violent terrorism that affects the rights of the individual and can be much more destructive on a whole society. I need more coffee.

Terrible ruling from the court and you should add Islam to the "mainstream" list of religious beliefs.

If you want to put Wahabi Islam into the BS category, I would agree, but Islam is a major world religion and so, even if you disagree with it, deserves to be labelled "mainstream" (whatever that means. :-)

David

David Koresh was not violent. The feds ran in on him all crazy with little or no provocation.

With all those guns he had, the dude seemed to be prepared for a pretty violent response.

hey, what about the Church of John Coltrane and the Church of the Subgenius?

Mark,
The Church Of The Sub Genius,since you
mentioned them, set up a pumpkin patch
for selling Jack O Lantern pumpkins on
a street not far from me last Halloween
season.I live out in Vegas and I do not
know more than 3 or 4 people that are
hip to their "thing". It was a very,very
strange thing and the guy running it was
a normal looking middle aged man and he
didn't say much about T.C.O.T.S.G other
than he found them interesting and funny
as hell.He would not say it came about
that they were sponsoring the pumpkin
sale or anything. I didn't press him as
I thought it was funny and better left
as a practical joke and/or total enigma.

PS: Is the Coltrane Church still open?
Last time I was in S.F they were located
on Divisadero St. I believe. I'd forgot
all about them.At least as legit as the
Scientologists and a lot hipper!!!

Now Bastarda, don't you think this is a little bit WAY too much?

"The faith based legislation being discussed and passed in this country, to me, is a form of violent terrorism that affects the rights of the individual and can be much more destructive on a whole society."

The faith based initiatives amount to letting some private church groups get in on some of the money for running soup kitchens and such, along with all the completely secular groups. I can see why you might find this questionable, but it hardly constitutes "violent terrorism."

No JR, Koresh was not acting in a violent manner. Merely possessing firearms does not constitute intent to be violent. Our house has more weapons per capita than the Branch Davidian compound did. Koresh was not planning violence, nor acting in any belligerant manner. Then one day the army showed up at his door, tanks and all.

I think the faith based legislation Bastarda was talking about may have been things like banning stem cell research and forcing prayer on schools and the like, rather than the more innocuous idea of farming out some social sevice jobs to private charities.

Dave

Dave:

Exactly right. My qualms with faith based legislation have nothing to do with said private charities and soup kitchens. I was speaking more of the issues that are thinning the line between church and state at an alarming rate.

bah..

i don't wanna see any "church" get one single dime of taxpayer money , from federal, state or town..

until..

they pay their fucking taxes!!!

besides the whole "seperation of church and state" issue...i don't feel sorry for some of the richest organizations in the world who say they need cash but don't pay into the tax base

nuff said?

Excelsior!

Al:

No, I don't think it was WAY too much. Terrorism can be defined as a "system of government that seeks to rule by intimidation". A government that pushes the religious convictions of those that hold positions of power in said government into its legislation can be seen as a means of terrorism. By instilling these faith based legislative acts, those who oppose them, in many cases, do not receive funding and/or government backing, and are being forced to conform through financial intimidation (i.e. funding of stem cell research, abortion privacies and disclosures, prayer in schools, evolution/creationism debate in schools, et al.)

In any event, we all came to this article from some sort of link which may mean we have a few common ideals and interests. I came upon this link from an Atheist newsgroup. I'm curious to know where everyone else is from as I am enjoying this discussion with all of you very much. It's quite refreshing to come upon intellectual conversation on an internet saturated with "U suk" and "Metallica ROX!" chat rooms. (On a side note, I'm not criticizing Metallica as I personally think they do "rock"; I was just trying to make a point).

It's disturbing that a judge would try and dictate what parents may or may not teach children. What about the "religious" folk who hand their children "God Hates Fags" banners at anti-gay rallies? Where are the judges then?

Anyway, I believe Al's just trying to stir the pot with his BS v. non-BS section.

And that said, I'd like to add one glaring omission:

Star Trek

Live long & prosper, all!

Coffee sounds good about now ....

I don't know if this was supposed to be funny or whatever, but making a list of "Illegitimate BS" is wrong. I would like to see this author go up to a Muslim or Jehovah's Witness and tell them their religion is wrong. That's just bigotry.

But even more interesting, notice how this author never went into how he decided which religions went into each category, and if he did have some logic behind it, no doubt he would have oustanding, incorrect concepts.

Again, if this was supposed to be funny, well, whatever, but this guy sounds serious. He's calling the judge an idiot when he's making a list of "Illegitimate BS" religions? Please.

I do agree this judge is a moron. I always find it funny, however, that we, the people, or at least the ones in that district, elect these people as our officials. Think about it, we elected this stupid judge! He should be put under review for this ruling, which was very disgusting.

Why are you trying to split religions into those groups, it's absurd, how can a belief be illegitimate? By definition a belief doesn't have to be true, so how you judge it's legitimacy? It's just god damn fucking stupid of you to say that, it's like grabbing handfulls of inanimate objects, and then seperating them into two seperate piles, one for animate, and one for inanimate, but wait! the inanimate objects in the animate pile are in fact inanimate, how did you ever manage to put it in that pile?

Wicca's not dangerous, unless you're a dietician ... it's the life-calling and deep spiritual meaning of fat hippie chicks everywhere who don't believe in deodorant, personal grooming, or shaving body hair.

That is all.

Noname isn't reading very close, as I did list some criteria for my sorting, most significantly my estimation of how well the religion's adherents work and play with others.

I try to be nice about it, but I'll gladly tell anyone their beliefs are wrong if we get to talking. If you pretty much keep your beliefs to yourself, then indulge your fantasies freely. If you come proselytizing, that's cool too, but then you're inviting my opinions in return.

Taking a low opinion of somebody's BS does not make you a bigot. It is exactly the intolerance of bigotry that's the top thing getting religions on my "illegitimate BS" list, notably the Scientologists and the Muslims. Yes, yes, only SOME of them.

Plus, as Warren Oates as Sgt Hulka put it, "Lighten up, Francis." MY lists are only for amusement, as I would not presume to give them the force of law.

And if you happen to be involved with one of my listed BS groups, maybe you could take it as something to think about as to WHY someone else would put you on the shit list.

From the Indy Star:
August 18, 2005 - An Indianapolis father can share his Wiccan beliefs and rituals with his 10-year-old son, a state appeals court ruled Wednesday in a unanimous decision upholding parents' rights to share their religion with their children.

The court declared that a Marion County judge erred in approving a divorce decree last year that also directed the man and his ex-wife to shelter their son from "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

As suggested above, this is pretty much the only way the appeals court could have ruled, without scrapping that pesky First Amendment.

Senator, tell me my beliefs are wrong.

I dare you.

That is all.

I have a new strain of right and wrong for any takers. I'm sure we've all heard by now about the state of texas kidnapping over 400 children from the FLDS at elderado going in mind you on a fake report with swat,guns and taking all women and children away like criminals then telling the mothers that they can go back to the ranch OR work to get their kids back. and at one point the cops and cps(child protective services) told the lawyers the could NOT see and confer with their clients. now the kids are scatterd all over texas trying to deal with culture shoke and wondering what they did that they are in trouble for and where are mommy and daddy. the state of texas said in a statement that they had been watching the ranch from the moment it was perchesd in 2003 before anyone moved in. does this sound like case of had it in for them from the start? the FLDS had no weapons to speak of and no intintion of using them. and to top it off the person who called was a black woman from colorado springs with no connection to the FLDS what so ever. CAN ANYONE SAY SET UP? I say from the get go!!!!!!!