In all honesty Randy, I don't know why I bother, but I feel I have to tell you off because you make me sick.

I really find your shit offensive and I would like nothing better than beat some sense into you.

You said earlier that you arn't here to evangelize. Well it sounds to me like your evangleizing. Are you not espousing a moral philosophy and suggesting that God is going to condemn are assess if we don't follow your interpretation of the bible? That is evangelism. You are an evangelist, amoung other things.

Please, just remove your posts and go to some other nether-region of the internet. I'm dieing here reading your shit..

THANK YOU, SYDNEY, for your short but sweet rebuttle... Randy has no idea what he's talking about. He's too clouded by his faith to realize what really holds the world back. Christianity has held the world back for so many centuries... science was unable to progress because the church ruled the people. If Christianity had never got this popular, we would have been more educated sooner... we would have had advanced math sooner and we would have all known about the motion of the Earth and space itself. Currently, Christianity is holding us back with stem cell research... thanks to the Christian overlord Emperor Bush. Idiot.

well, thank you ms. Kitka I don't quite go as far as you, since I am a christian myself. But... I'd like to say, don't let randy represent all Christians. He's a mixed up fellow.

But I have to say,...the Christains here in America seem to be of a different variety than the ones I knew growing up in Canada.

I notice your a ms. I'm a single at the moment..

Wouldn't it be ironic if we hooked up here at Randy's post, and had un-consecrated sex. Where you at? :-)

I'm old and confused.

1. I care about people. Even strangers. Have all my life. Do you?

2. I can't make you do anything or stop doing anything. I'm just one voice in the wilderness. But I feel as though you feel threatened by me. I don't feel threatened by you.

3. I'm not proposing laws, but some might be a good idea. I'm only discussing natural consequences of acts. If you smoke it has consequences. If you drink too much, it has consequences. If you bite your fingernails it has consequences. If you attempt to cross a minefield without map or mine detector, it has consequences. If I was offering you a map to a minefield that you had to cross, would you be offended?

4. You seem to fear me or my ideas. What great and horrible consequence do you foresee if I continue to talk or publish my ideas?

5. Some feel it necessary to insult me or act rudely. Do you believe that this adds to the conversation?

6. Some seem to think that blogcritics is a private club for folks who think a certain way. Is it?

>>6. Some seem to think that blogcritics is a private club for folks who think a certain way. Is it?

About the only consensus I can find among Blogcritics is that we're all against:

1 ) Being judged by self-described experts, especially people who come out of the gate as if their words are ordained by God.

2) Extremism in language and views. (Though people's ideas of extremism vary.)

3) One view of the world being right and the rest wrong.

4) Someone posting too often and dominating the site.

No. 4 is a strong hint. You might take a look around the site and your audience more before feeling shocked and opressed to get a better idea of what to expect. It may improve your writing and your way of discussion (or destroy both LOL )

- Temple, has a role at this site.

Well you got me feeling a little bit sorry for you Randy. I don't mean to brake your spirit completely, but you have to understand how offensive your methods are. Temple Sharks rules really are sound advice for a guy like you. Despite the fact that I've broken rule #4 tonight also...

So I've suspended my anger for a few hours. Going out to get drunk. But really, I don't know to what degree I should feel sorry for a person like yourself... I wish I understood you a little better.

Stark. Stark. Stark :-0

***1. I care about people. Even strangers. Have all my life. Do you?***

Yes, me too. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they don't care for people or are "bad."

One of the things I care about is how much damage is done by telling people there is only one acceptable way to be sexual.

***2. I can't make you do anything or stop doing anything. I'm just one voice in the wilderness. But I feel as though you feel threatened by me. I don't feel threatened by you.***

I'm not threatened -- what I am is annoyed by people spewing illogical beliefs. Any of my friends can tell you that I don't have patience for people who don't make sense.

Every ill that you are ascribing to sex is really having to do with irresponsibity or the abuse of another human being.

You refuse to acknowledge that some people might be able to view porn or have more open sex lives and be happy, well-adjusted and responsible. Instead you chose to base your proof on borderline rapists, porn addicts, and women who were abused.

What you are talking about is akin to putting everyone on a diet 'cause a whole lot of people are fat. But, again, you are more interested in lust than gluttony.

***3. I'm not proposing laws, but some might be a good idea. I'm only discussing natural consequences of acts. If you smoke it has consequences. If you drink too much, it has consequences. If you bite your fingernails it has consequences. If you attempt to cross a minefield without map or mine detector, it has consequences. If I was offering you a map to a minefield that you had to cross, would you be offended?***

Choices do have consequences. Unfortunately your theory of the cause and effect is all out of whack.

You are not offering anyone a map for a minefield...you are offering an opinion. One that has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.

***4. You seem to fear me or my ideas. What great and horrible consequence do you foresee if I continue to talk or publish my ideas?***

You just said that there are natural consequences to acts. There is a natural consequence to posting in a place where many disagree with you.

You either step up your game or learn to ignore.

***5. Some feel it necessary to insult me or act rudely. Do you believe that this adds to the conversation?***

You have felt the need to imply that anyone not taking a vow of chastity or unwilling to have sex according to your guidelines is depraved. Think that adds to the conversation?

***6. Some seem to think that blogcritics is a private club for folks who think a certain way. Is it?***

Have you bothered to read other people's blogs? Often there are controversial opinions and debates. But if you post something absurd and flawed you'll hear it. We are adults here and there are no free rides. You make a statement -- particularly a controversial one -- and you need to be prepared to defend it. And not by quoting yourself.

The years you are focusing on were also the years where a lot happened with civil rights and equal rights for women? Also Roe Vs Wade...any issues there?

Poor spelling...isn't there legislation pending against poor spelling? and using...ellipses?

"I really find your shit offensive and I would like nothing better than beat some sense into you."

How in the hell is this post "offensive"? Why does it warrant an urge for a physical attack?

I do not see anything written here that
would justify any kind of attack.Be that
verbal,physical or otherwise.

Perhaps the authors opinions are rather
provincial.But your attack is really out
of line,Syd. Out of curiousity just what
exactly was said to make you put this
writer on your (s)hit list ? Curious.

If it's because he's espousing religion,
I'll agree there ARE more appropriate
forums for this. But since that does not
seem to be the case, what was it that he
did? I'm not defending Christianity and
would be happy if no religion at all was
discussed here(secular bastard that I am
I am)but I truly feel you over reacted,
Sydney.

Back from youngest son�s baseball practice, so would like to see if I can get to some middle ground with some of you. It is an interesting environment to have multiple positions and attitudes to deal with at one time. I have tried to name the person whose comment I was addressing, but in the last list I didn�t. Therefore may have painted with a wide brush. For that I apologize.

I found Nicolettes response the most well reasoned, so will attempt to shed some light on who I really am by that response.

***Yes, me too. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they don't care for people or are "bad."***

Some of the comments appeared to be insensitive to others in our community who might be harmed by the consequences of inappropriate (you suggest irresponsible or abusive) sex.

***One of the things I care about is how much damage is done by telling people there is only one acceptable way to be sexual.***

There is not, nor have I implied, that there is only one way to be sexual. I don�t even think there is only one way to be sexual that will result in the best possible consequences. I do believe based on solid research from multiple sources, and my own experience in counseling others, that there are many unacceptable ways to be sexual and many sexual activities that result in great damage. Not only to the participants, but to their children, friends, etc.

***I'm not threatened -- what I am is annoyed by people spewing illogical beliefs. Any of my friends can tell you that I don't have patience for people who don't make sense.***

Some seemed threatened. They couldn�t go on with the discussion, felt they needed to hurt me, etc. I admit to be overly patient with people who don�t make sense. However, only rarely in all of this discussion has anyone with any authority been able to give a counter to my arguments using any kind of citations (even remote ones that they can�t give an exact link to.

***Every ill that you are ascribing to sex is really having to do with irresponsibility or the abuse of another human being.***

There are many individuals who are involved in any act dealing with porn. To the extent that anyone purchases porn or is an audience for it, they encourage the production of it. Based on all studies, the individuals who are acting in these are almost always under some kind of duress, have a mental or emotional problem, etc. Thus those who take advantage are exploiting people they don�t even know who very likely are in a great deal of pain.

***You refuse to acknowledge that some people might be able to view porn or have more open sex lives and be happy, well-adjusted and responsible. Instead you chose to base your proof on borderline rapists, porn addicts, and women who were abused.***

I think there are cases when this does happen. I think there are more cases when hubby is putting pressure on his wife to watch or do things she doesn�t want to. I think there are more cases when one partner is very upset or would be if they knew the other was doing porn.

***What you are talking about is akin to putting everyone on a diet 'cause a whole lot of people are fat. But, again, you are more interested in lust than gluttony.***

My mother-in-law just died 6 months ago. She was severely overweight. I made many suggestions with regard to the health consequences. My partner is very overweight. I make many suggestions and encourage him to get the weight down. If you�re happy being overweight, don�t mind the physical stress and strain, the shortened life span, and the appearance issues, then go for it. I will undoubtedly, as lovingly as possible, try to be a nudge.

***Choices do have consequences. Unfortunately your theory of the cause and effect is all out of whack.***

Be specific

***You are not offering anyone a map for a minefield...you are offering an opinion. One that has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese.***

27 sexually transmitted diseases, many of which are not even remotely discouraged by condoms (HPV, etc.) with sterility, warts, horrible itching, death as possibilities. That is a minefield. My map is only have sex with one partner after marriage. (I didn�t succeed at this, by the way, and regret it.)

Randy 4. You seem to fear me or my ideas. What great and horrible consequence do you foresee if I continue to talk or publish my ideas?***

Nicolette You just said that there are natural consequences to acts. There is a natural consequence to posting in a place where many disagree with you.

You either step up your game or learn to ignore.

I�m not thin skinned at all. I have done hundreds of radio interviews on secular radio, hosted my own talk show for 3 years, and appeared on the old Geraldo show regarding bisexuality I have been insulted and yelled at on many a show. However, some of the comments said that they feared where my ideas would lead.


***You have felt the need to imply that anyone not taking a vow of chastity or unwilling to have sex according to your guidelines is depraved. Think that adds to the conversation?***

If you believe I have implied that, you are very mistaken. Read my words. I�m very poor at implying. I talk straight off the shoulder.

***Have you bothered to read other people's blogs? Often there are controversial opinions and debates. But if you post something absurd and flawed you'll hear it. We are adults here and there are no free rides. You make a statement -- particularly a controversial one -- and you need to be prepared to defend it. And not by quoting yourself.***

Some seem not very adult. Several others are very articulate. But I still find there is a lack of detail in the arguments in favor of porn, or in disputing my ideas.

***The years you are focusing on were also the years where a lot happened with civil rights and equal rights for women? Also Roe Vs Wade...any issues there?***

Civil RIghts, excellent.
Women�s rights, mixed bag. I�d like to see less anomie� in the roles
I�d like to see more women who desire to be stay at home moms be able to afford to do so. I�d like to see more balance in women taking responsibility for their foibles, and not merely dissing men.
Abortion. Take a wild guess. If a building was being torn down, and someone watching the action said there was a child in the basement, but others said no there wasn�t, do you think there would be a major effort to determine if there was, before the building was demolished.

Sorry to be so wordy.

Self-professed Christian, Sydney, threatens to "beat some sense" into Randy, then propositions Ms. Kitka, all in the fine tradition of walking the Lord's path. Christianity ain't what it used to be.

Randy..in 1969 I was a teen ager. I was sleeping with a boy I was not married as were many of my friends. It was the sixties,man. You must not have lived thru the sixties. People did have sex and they were not married. They just did not talk about it. But there were alot of ten pound preemies born to people married less than the nine months it takes to make a baby.

Men were beating their wives senseless and you did not hear about it because no one talked about it. Children were being sexually and physically abused but you did not hear about it because no one talked about it. It was all a big secret.

Ah, man, where were you in in the sixties if you did not see the drugs on campuses and other places?

Then people started talking about it. Women found out they did not have to settle for men who beat them and moved out to find their own way in the world. Children found out that people would believe them if they told about the uncle who snuck into their bedroom at night and it just seemed to snowball.

Yes we may have gone over board on some things. But do we really need to go back to a time when people closed thier eyes to what was going on around them?

There are things I do agree with you on. I do not think you deserved the nast attacks that came your way for simply stating your opinion on things.

I just looked up "Contradiction" in my
dictionary. Sydney's picture was where
the definition should've been.

Wow, I like to blame religion for a lot of things, but wanting to beat up Mr Kirk for attributing a moral slide to sex and drugs doesn't sound like an evangelical position.

Everyone who posted must have some history with Mr Kirk, because from just reading this one post it sounds like a valid opinion.

I also looked at the top ten posters list and Temple Stark was there but Mr Kirk was not, so how can you say that he posts too much.

Randy -

You keep on missing that the the negative effects are not cause by sex, but by irresponsibility.

I know and have known a lot of people who have been involved in porn; none of the people I have known seemed to be under duress. I've written erotica for many years and enjoy it and it has been completely by choice.

My husband freely views porn and he is a good man who comes home to be every singe evening...rarely even ten minutes late.

The people who regret their sexual decisions are going to often not take persona responsibility if they can avoid it. The people that are abused are going to not have a realistic perception of healthy sexuality. And both of these groups very well might seek refuge in religion.

I said your view was like telling everyone they had to diet because many people were fat. Your response had very little to do with my point, although you did share about your family. The point was that not everyone has suffered from viewing porn or more open lifestyles and therefore it is incorrect to expect everyone -- including the many people who are well-adjusted -- to embrace the lifestyle that you deem fit.

To clarify where you asked for clarification: everything we do has consequences. Responsible choices tend to lead to better consequences. Bad decisions tend to lead to negative consequences.

And sometimes people do the right things and bad things still happen, but it does not mean the action was bad. I once heard of a woman who became paralyzed trying to save her dog from a fall.

Maybe we should ban dogs; they are dangerous. They paralyze people, and bit them, and have fleas, and get rabies, and...

it appear to your humble Narrator that most of the ills described by the Articles Poster don't really stem from sex itself..

but from a lack of taking personal Responsibility for one's actions

when approached form this angle..much progress can be made by helping to educate young folks in the science of critical thinking as well as cause and effect

i do take some Issue with the bit about 3 versus 27 STD's...as far as i am Aware there has only been one brand new STD under the sun..HIV/AIDS...whose source is still under debate...i find it disturbing whenever anyone attempts to cast aspersions on sufferers from this modern Plague merely because of it's vectors of transmission

that leaves umm..23 diseases that the Poster asserts are brand new diseases?

i would like some links to a medical reference for such a claim before i could even begin to take it seriously

also, when presenting some statistics, please ensure they are modified by the changes in communications as well as increases in populations and effecincies of gather data due to technological and sociological advances...

pet peeve of mine is how some folks can cherry pick stats and data to present favorable "factoids" for their opinions, but do not take into account all the variables for formulating an accurate Equation or comparison

i know..nothing funny from the Jester here...but i'm trying to be a good puppy...and while i strongly disagree with Randy Kirk here on many issues put forward so far...i will try and remain civil until i am given cause to do otherwise...

one last bit here..Randy Kirk sez..
*My partner is very overweight. I make many suggestions and encourage him to get the weight down*

you say "partner" and "him"...am i correct then that you are an unmarried female with a live in partner? if not, might i ask for elucidation..it may help in understanding just where you are coming from and allow for a greater level of communication...

i hope this helps..

Excelsior!

The statistics are well known and available online including CDC and elsewhere. No one disputes that numerous new STD's have come on the scene. Some virtually unknown ones have flourished.

I am married (2nd time) for 18 years. I have two adopted daughters 2 sons and 2.8 grand children (one due in 4 weeks.)

My partner and I own a manufacturing business which produces California Springs, Trek, and Extreme Bicycle Water Bottles, and MR. Tuffy bicycle inntertube protectors.

My book, A Generation Betrayed: Its Time to End the Sexual Revolution, was published in 1993 by Huntington House. I have three published books about bicycle retailing, and my second on running a small business due in February under the Warner Books label.

thaks for the background info....it does help a bit..

Randy sez..
* No one disputes that numerous new STD's have come on the scene.*

ummm..i just disputed it and asked for a reference..i find no such mention on the CDc site...but maybe i need to do more digging, since i am not a medical doctor i may be missing something

i find the "virtually unknown" bit to be disturbingly vague...

it has been quite common, historically..for such diseases to be unknown in one geographical area, but common in another...until those two cultures meet...then, like any other disease, a spreading occurs...

this is the same no matter what the vector of transmission

good luck with your business

but i am sorry to say we will just have to disagree with some of the tenets involved in the philosophy you espouse

i will say that i admire anyone that tries to help others, i consider that a basic tenet of Ethics...my problems stem from some of your basic Postulates and the Hypothesis you draw form them...

i understand that this is in large part due to the difference between my personal Thoughts and the tenets of your Faith, and i will not insult you by attempting to change or belittle your Beliefs...

be forewarned that this Jester's purpose is to point out when the "emperor has no clothes"...and it is my Opinion that some of your "theories" fall into that category...

i hope that helps to explain...

Excelsior!

1968? Oh, it's all a blur ... not. At least for me, scotch and tobacco were the drugs, one illegal, one not. Not so for most of my companions, who didn't care for scotch and had lots of "wackybacky". Sex ... well, the pill was beyond popular. That actually having sex was illegal was ignored.

sex kills? Lemme give you a tip, sex made you! Sex made me, and it continues to make me very happy.

As for drugs, this is a point I have been wanting to make publically for years. The problem with a lot of drugs is mis-information. Of course drugs can ruin your life... that is totally true.

but what they don't tell you is that if you are very safe and plan according drugs can be a shitload of fun.

seriously.

I hope we didn't come off as intolerant though, Randy. You truly are a unique voice in our environment and for that you should be applauded. You are totally welcome to post your nutjob end of the world rants here whenever you want. In fact, I look forward to them.

seriously

Anyone notice how bizarrely unfitting the title of the original post is? There's not actually anything in the article about sex killing and there's certainly no proof of anything.

Dave

Posts are the articles, not comments. There have been a flood of similarly minded writers who signed on this week and they turned the site a little. All together their posts made the site appear to be dogmatically one way.

Clearly the site is not.

There was some reaction -Satirical Wal-slut pieces and, mostly comments - to this domination, by a mind-set that was not as wholly represented before.

Faith is what it is and is not easily discussed when "judgment" is the first order of the day. It is also not easily discussed when people start denying that is their POV, when it is.

bah..they tempt me to start my own blog and join the sinister cabal!!

isn't that a sign of the Apocalypse?

Excelsior!

Don't resist, Gonzo - come to the dark side.

Dave

Sex Kills

Actually no. Ignorance kills.

The original post did what it was meant to. It made me think. As do many of the things on the internet that I disagree with.

Then the flames just made me wistful. . .

And why is it that everyone assumes that sex OOHH (outside the Ozzie and Harriet household) was first discovered in the 1960s? I have much evidence to the contrary. . .

"Self-professed Christian, Sydney, threatens to "beat some sense" into Randy, then propositions Ms. Kitka, all in the fine tradition of walking the Lord's path. Christianity ain't what it used to be."

-- No, it certainly isn't. Thank the lord.

Only have a minute before (you guessed it) church.

1. Where do we draw the line on porn. Soft, hard core, S and M, child, kiddy?

2. If you know you are buying a T shirt made by slave, exploited, or child labor, do you not buy it?

3. What is it about porn that you NEED in order to make your sex life complete or special? Isn't your partner satisfying you?

4. After Jesus sent away those who wanted to stone the prostitute, he said to her "go and sin no more." Does anyone believe that Jesus would say porn was a good thing?

5. Sex Kills. Millions are dead from aids and HPV. More millions are dead from abuse. Hundreds of millions are dead before being born.

6. Owning up. I have reviewed original sources last night. It would appear that in 1965 there were three known STD's, maybe 4 or 5. Only the big three were of concern and they were under control. There was even talk of syph being eradicated.

Since then, other diseases have been found to be Sexually transmitted. Some exclusively, some as one mode. Total is actually over 30 now, counting HIV.

My statement was incorrect regarding NEW diseases, but not incorrect in terms of the fact that we now have epidemics. Any one who does 10 minutes on Google will find the CDC sites referencing the epidemic that continues.

7. Anyone who lived through the 50's, 60's and 70's knows the reality of the change that took place. Most of the comments that gave personal experiences spoke specifically of 67, 68. I agree, it had already changed. Lets have some personal experiences from 63-64 when I was in high school that suggest that sex among teens was rampant, porn was at the movie theater, and more than an insignificant number of people were living together without the benefit of marriage.

1. Where do we draw the line on porn. Soft, hard core, S and M, child, kiddy?

I would say we draw the line with consenting adults.

3. What is it about porn that you NEED in order to make your sex life complete or special? Isn't your partner satisfying you?

I don't need porn, haven't looked at porn in over a decade, but am damn positive I don't need you to tell me if I need it or not.

4. After Jesus sent away those who wanted to stone the prostitute, he said to her "go and sin no more." Does anyone believe that Jesus would say porn was a good thing?

As much as it may surprise you, not everybody cares what Jesus would think.

Of course jesus would not tell us porn was okay but he would also tell us to judge not lest we be judge. He would be out helping people rathering than casting any form of judgement on them but I do not feel Randy is doing that. I think he is just stating that we do have alot of stds out there today that were not there years ago. That is true. We cannot deny that. But it seems like his message is blaming the sex act itself rather than the irresponsible people who pass these diseases on.

ok..got my coffee, and what do i find?

let's have a look..all *quotes* are from comment #30 by Randy Kirk...

*1. Where do we draw the line on porn. Soft, hard core, S and M, child, kiddy?*

Steve S, as usual, nailed it..the line is drawn at consenting adults...that also happens to be the usual Definition for many states as well....also, correct me if i am wrong..but isn't "child" and "kiddy" the same "category" ?

*2. If you know you are buying a T shirt made by slave, exploited, or child labor, do you not buy it?*

nope..as many of the gentle Readers will tell you, i am a bit of a stickler when it comes to my personal Ethics...no wal-mart for me...and while i readily acknowledge that this can be analagous to SOME of the porn out there..there is a huge majority done by consenting adults as their profession...willingly and with good compensation

*3. What is it about porn that you NEED in order to make your sex life complete or special? Isn't your partner satisfying you?*

one could ask the same thing about church, eh? most that enjoy this medium are single, with no partner, and utilize it as simulation for self gratification...about as "safe sex" as you can ask for..i fail to see how it harms anyone when within the criteria i have stated above..

*4. After Jesus sent away those who wanted to stone the prostitute, he said to her "go and sin no more." Does anyone believe that Jesus would say porn was a good thing?*

as far as my reading of the New Testament has found..whereas Moses gave 10 Laws...Yeshua gave only 1..."do unto others as you would have others do unto you"...please enlighten us as to how this topic violates that Law outside of already illegal items (such as child porn or the participants being unlawfully coerced)

*5. Sex Kills. Millions are dead from aids and HPV. More millions are dead from abuse. Hundreds of millions are dead before being born.*

correction...diseases kill, aside from the rare heart attack, i highly doubt you can show that sex alone directly killed anyone...i might suggest you look up the difference between causation and correlation....by your "Logic" here then during an influenza epidemic you would say "sneezing kills" rather than the virus...i also have some difficulty in Logic with the idea that you can be dead before being born...but i understand the point you are attempting there

*6. Owning up. I have reviewed original sources last night. It would appear that in 1965 there were three known STD's, maybe 4 or 5. Only the big three were of concern and they were under control. There was even talk of syph being eradicated.*

again, please cite or link to these "original sources" so we can compare apples to apples...one can talk about "eradicating" anything, this does not make it True

something for you to think about...how far had medical science progressed in the last 40 years, add to that the Fact that we, as a society, are much more open to communication than we were then...reports of child abuse and wife-beating have risen , but most Experts in those fields will tell you it is due to it being reported much more often as opposed to the past due to the "stigma" being removed from the victim as well as a more open Society

*Any one who does 10 minutes on Google will find the CDC sites referencing the epidemic that continues.*

you will also find that Education is the suggested path to dealing with it, rather than leave young people in Ignorance, show them "cause and effect" and teach them the life skills and techniques to keep themselves safer..much more effective than Ignorance and dogmatically saying "there is only one way"

as for the rest, you seem to only be looking at white, middle class, American Society as your "focus group" when talking about before and after...yet you often cite worldwide trends and statistics (i believe, since you have still failed to link to your sources)

this practice skews the relational Equation and does not take into account a fuller use of Variables...

i do hope that helps in Understanding

gnosis > dogma

Excelsior!

As with so many things, the rise in the number of STDs could very well be the result of improved methods of detection and analysis. Many of those STDs may have existed for centuries and just not have been identified as STDs or even as distinct diseases.

Dave

Only have a minute before (you guessed it) church.

*1. Where do we draw the line on porn. Soft, hard core, S and M, child, kiddy?*

Is there a difference between child and kiddy porn?

You seem to keep on thinking because there can or is illegal or irresponsible behavior in porn that it all bad.

You ask where "we" draw the line. In differnt place from one another. And why can't that be okay?

Of course none of us are advocating the use of children or coercing others.

*2. If you know you are buying a T shirt made by slave, exploited, or child labor, do you not buy it?*

Again you are being obtuse in extrapolating from the few exploited ones a false norm.

What it I said that Christianity kills? I guarantee that I can prove a higher body count. I don't make that argument though because -- like porn -- what kills is people using Christianity to harm others.

*3. What is it about porn that you NEED in order to make your sex life complete or special? Isn't your partner satisfying you?*

::Rolls eyes:: I don't need porn anymore than I need to top off my dinner with dessert. But sometimes I go on ahead and get some dessert anyhow. Would you like to ban dessert?

*4. After Jesus sent away those who wanted to stone the prostitute, he said to her "go and sin no more." Does anyone believe that Jesus would say porn was a good thing?*

I believe that Jesus would not be a huge fan of a lot of things we do. I also believe -- as I've stated before -- that the need for Jesus is predicated on the fact humans fall short of perfection every single day.

*5. Sex Kills. Millions are dead from aids and HPV. More millions are dead from abuse. Hundreds of millions are dead before being born.*

That's like saying running kills -- and putting in fine print --if you're carry scissors.

(I'm not even getting into the whole abortion thing. )

If the catholic church were not opposed to people wering condoms, there would be fewer people with STD and teenage pregnancies.
Sex is a natural thing, has always been and always will be.
Abstinence, the idea of sin and guilt are man made. They are a creation of the religious control-freaks to take away from people the most natural thing on Earth : Making love.

Ohhhh, can I take Randy's Sex Quiz?!


(nevermind -- I just wanted to type "randy" and "sex" in the same sentence. Carry on, Philistines!)

"Hi, my name is Shark, and I'm a porno addict."


Actually, I think Randy should lie down on the ol' digital couch and tell us ALL ABOUT his personal experience with pornography ruining his life.

I have a feeling there's a pretty good story in there somewhere -- some really nasty stuff that brought him to this point.

Just think of this as an online version of yer "AA" meetings.

Fire away, Randy-man, we're all ears!

>>Fire away, Randy-man, we're all ears!<<

Damn, that really limits the orifices we can use for sex. But I guess it makes Randy happy - or is Aural Sex a sin now?

Dave

Good one, Dave!

"Sex kills"

So does religion.

So does war.

So does getting really, really, really old.

Stating that "sex kills" does nothing to add to a dialogue about, presumably, improving societal attitudes and activities.

Thought Randy was a she?!

I just had sex.

How much time do I have left, doc?

"I just had sex."

Is that where you've been all weekend?

;-]

Salut!

***If the catholic church were not opposed to people wering condoms, there would be fewer people with STD and teenage pregnancies.
Sex is a natural thing, has always been and always will be.
Abstinence, the idea of sin and guilt are man made. They are a creation of the religious control-freaks to take away from people the most natural thing on Earth : Making love.***

The most natural thing on earth is making love within the context of a long term relationship with another person. There is very little else on this planet that we will experience that can compare. The opposite side of this entire discussion is the positive message of how good sex can be in that context, and how debasing and filled with bad results sex can be and commonly is in other contexts.

I will give you some personal experience when I have more time, but my own experience with porn has nothing to do with my feelings about it, other than to make me more knowledgeable than I would be otherwise.

My interest in the subject is a subheading under my general interest in the social psychology of sex. My undergrad major at UCLA was Psych with a concentration in human sexual response. My graduate degree is a JD from UCLA, and my intention was to practice marriage and family counseling and law.

I have been studying this subject (no laughs) for 37 years and have read extensively, counseled many, written one book, and participated in endless discussions with other experts.

I am not perfect in this aspect of my life, or in any other. I make plenty of mistakes. I do believe that porn represents many dangers to my kids, my friends, and to our culture. But my main focus in this subject arena is teen sex. Porn is just one part of it.

Not all weekend, just tonigh, Bennett!

Randy says:

The most natural thing on earth is making love within the context of a long term relationship with another person

Actually, this is a historically recent and socially constructed phenomenon. It's not very natural at all.

"But my main focus in this subject arena is teen sex. Porn is just one part of it".

.....must not make joke ..... must not comment...... must not turn to the dark side......

awww Bennett...>channels James Earl Jones<

"come to the Dark side"

you know you want to...it's like fishing in asmall barrel using concussion grenades..

sick..but how can you resist?

Excelsior!

If the title were true, we'd all be dead now...

Silly me who thought that sex was actually the way to create life !

Now, now, everyone needs to stop picking on poor Randy Kirk. because he's right, sex does indeed kill. We die because we reproduce sexually. It is a scientific fact.

For not all living creatures die. An amoeba, for example, need never die; it need not even, like certain generals, fade away. It just divides and becomes two new amoebas.

well Margaret, if that is true then I think you have made a valid case towards the importance of us all getting our freak on in as many varied ways as possible.

We need to trash our social puritanism and hang ups that cause things like porn to affect some of us negatively, embrace our sexuality and take pleasure from even the simple things in life in a sexual context, right? I mean we're paying such a high price for sex, if we die because of it, might as well enjoy the ride and experience sex as much as possible. Get our money's worth, so to speak.

So those who never have sex, or any sexual activity, are immortal, innit?

Steve S gets it.

I cannot help but feel sorry for the people who do not for they do not understand the joy of sex as a simple pleasure, treating it as if it is some sort of dreaded disease, a toxic burden upon their souls that they wish they could uninvent.

And has anyone else ever noticed how such people view our great progress toward sexual liberty as a primary factor in what they perceive as the "decline" of our civilization, which is actually in its ascendency and still going strong?

We are better off today than we were 40 years ago, the people who deny this are just pessimists who likely need to get laid.

I want to be careful not to bore you, but you asked for it.

First porn experience - age 14 while traveling by Greyhound bus from Olwein IA to my home in St. Louis.

Normal college stuff. Read Playboy for the articles. First wife bought me a subscription for my birthday and re-upped every year.

Traveled a lot in early career. Started visiting porn stores, dance places.

Got in pretty deep towards end of first marriage. Not real bad, but starting to be.

A few days before my marriage to my current wife (18 years ago), she found a box full of mags and videos. Not happy. She offered me a choice. It or her. I chose her. Quit cold turkey.

I argued with her during next two years about whether it was appropriate to look at. She said it dishonored her. I said that made sense.

Later came into contact with other men who had various levels of problems with use. One close friend's marriage ended because of it. Had a son. He stumbled onto internet stuff at age 11. Bad effect. Took 3 years to get him to stay away completely.

So. As you can see. There is a history. Not huge, but enough to have "been there, done that." Helps in counseling others. But doesn't drive my interest.

ok..thanks for the background..

so let me get this correct...

you dabbled in soft-core when younger, made an agreement with your wife, and have now decided that you should crusade against anyone else indulging, even for the sake of self gratification

i am curious as to the scholastic qualifications or other training required for your current profession...a medical degree in psychiatry perhaps? possibly sociology?
cultural anthropology?

rest assured i have no desire to impugn your personal experience, but i believe i can safely say that it hardly qualifies you for the whole "been there, done that" statement

it's not like you had been in the industry and could speak from first hand experience about the general practices

i,for instance, bounced in various "dance bars" for a little over 8 years, and feel i can speak about that aspect of it with some knowledge, including having talked with some performers in the film aspect that were touring the clubs for promotional purposes..

yet i would shrink from ever attempting to refer to myself as any kind of expert in the field

my entire Argument against some of what you have written here stems from factual error and fallacies in Logic, not anything personal against you or your Belief system

i hope that helps to clarify a bit, and aids in future discussion...

gnosis > dogma

Excelsior!

At least Randy put up the background - more than most would. honet appreciation for that.


Now i must sing my mightily hymn. Hmmmmmm.

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.


Damn, I'm still pissed about the 24 finale. I should stop now.

That was priceless, Temple - can I get an autographed copy for my living room?

Perhaps Bennett can play bass.

Gonzo

Are you purposely misrepresenting my words, trying to read into them, or just not reading at all.

I am not crusading and have not proposed any change in the law. I am offering a point of view just as you are. In my personal life I try to help folks who feel that the porn is harming them. In my public life, I would teach that there is real potential harm in porn. Therefore it would be better to stay away from it. I would say the same for many other things.

My original point of the post was new info in the way young men and women were being effected by porn.

My cred goes far beyond my personal experience. It is just one element. The cred was spelled out earlier.

A great deal of the argumentation that took place went way off the path. That is probably my fault. My original post was intentionally controversial, and unintentionally religious. I should probably have edited it for this location from its original form.

P.S. I agree with all who say that it isn't the sex that kills. And I think I said it pretty clearly earlier. But might we all agree that sex if a far more loaded aspect of our experience than any other. The relational aspect is filled with twists and turns, power vs powerless, and lots of secret stuff. Therefore, it presents a different level of concern than drinking, drugs, gambling, gluttony, etc.

One last P.S. forgive me. I love the Song of Solomon. Great book with two parallel meanings. Everyone, Christian or not, should read it.

Well Randy, if there is anybody out there who is having problems because of pornography, and I'm sure we all acknowledge that it does happen, we all wish you the best in helping them out of it. We all support that.

Another post of yours implied that porn was responsible for a great many evils. It is the presentation here (and there) that gets the responses.

If I may point to a comment you made in the blog above, where the reason for things like single poor moms, gangs, new diseases, etc. is because of "Out of control sexual behavior. Natural consequences." I would have to say 'sorta'. America was very puritan in it's beginnings, it became more liberal over the generations and then there was a huge liberal shift in the 60's. (by liberal here, we're not talking politics).

Of course there are many reasons for all those things, some of which might be societies inability to know the responsibilities of a new found freedom. A person who's just gone off to college might spend too much time partying at first, not being accustomed to the responsibility of being in charge of themselves. Even on a larger scale, like Russia suddenly going from communism to democracy, there are millions over there that don't know how to handle their new found freedoms. When freedoms came via sexual expression and the like, naturally there would be many people who weren't knowledgeable of the responsibilities and the consequences. That is natural, but you correct that with education and knowledge and not by taking away the freedom 'because people can't handle it'. Hopefully that makes sense to someone out there who can explain it better.

In terms of single moms, I don't know if the situation got that way because men were suddenly no longer accountable for their offspring due to a new sexual freedom or not, but I would agree with anybody that says men should be accountable for their children too.

In terms of diseases, knowledge or giving up sex will stop that. I vote for the knowledge and education of people into how to enjoy sex safely. Trying to banish sex or the education of sex under the guise of 'it's endorsement' only makes things worse.

What you really want, is a society that only promotes/endorses sex within a monogamous heterosexual relationship. But look at Vegas, 'what happens here, stays here'. Look at the women on Mediterranean beaches who can walk around topless with no negative effects on society, look at the internet where people have a right to express themselves as they choose, the list goes on. You want a society that returns to a strict moral code in regards to sex. You have chosen an uphill battle with that ideology.

Rather than preach that Sex Kills, I would recommend considering that Sex Is Here To Stay and so it's better to educate people on how to live with sex, while keeping in mind that How, When and with Who is their own damn business.
;-)

I just gave you the entire Song of Solomon.

I wish I'd been drinking, then I'd have some excuse for that comment. :-)

You'll undoubtedly find this amusing.

I don't think the oft sited Bible verse regarding the spilling of seed had anything to do with God pronouncing against masturbation.

I have no issue with those who choose this method of release, Biblically or otherwise. Dr. Dobson of Focus on the Family doesn't either, and has written on the subject.

I know this may create opportunity for picking a bit of fun with the poor Christian, but its just my point of view.

I do believe that the physical aspect of masturbation can be achieved without the help of porn. I believe that the consequences of the use of porn outweigh its advantages.

Randy,

thanks for elucidating your position, i do appreciate it

due to some of the overtones in your post, it could easily be construed to be "preaching" or "crusading"...hence some of my reaction

when you intend to be controversial, you should probably expect friction as well as reaction

since your Postulates touch upon the irst Amendment rights of both performers and publishers you can easily touch off some nerves on that alone

i hope that helps, and i do look forward to future discussions...i have always been of the Opinion that the Socratic method of learning...a person on each end of a log, talking...is a fine way to expand personal Understanding...

i will always operate from the Postulate..

gnosis > dogma

hope that helps..

Excelsior!

Thanks Gonzo. It does.

Steve. Well said. I could pick some nits, but I won't.

Only this. My crusade is one life at a time. Would I change laws in some areas regarding how open society is. Sure. But so would most of the commentors. They said they draw the line at consenting adults as actors in porn. So, they would certainly want to make sure 4 year olds have legal protection.

I know this may create opportunity for picking a bit of fun with the poor Christian, but its just my point of view.

Do you feel it is your faith that is being 'picked on' here? I don't think that is the case. I happen to be a baptized Christian myself, but you'll find I'm one of the harshest critics of the Church here. There is a huge difference between Christianity and people like Dobson.

And what is so 'poor' about a religious group currently shoring up control of the biggest superpower on the planet?

This has been a very interesting thread to read, and it really points out a lot of the misconceptions and miscommunications between people on the many sides of the broader issue of religion, Christianity, and for lack of a better word secularism.

re: Sex Kills -- Joni Mitchell said it better -- years ago.

=====

re: Randy's Background Story - not bad, Randy. You coulda added more examples, spiced it up a bit, extended the exposition in the "Started visiting porn stores, dance places" section. Might have been instructional to actually tell us some details about yer sex life with wifes number 1 & 2, ie any blow jobs? 69? doggie style? Or is is just the ol' man on top--woman on bottom get it over with quick stuff?

Either way, thanks for the tail! I mean... tale!

========


re: spillling seed (as potential 'people')

"I have wiped entire civilisations off my chest with a grey gym sock" -- Bill Hicks

=======

Just for the record:

Shark thinks porno is sad, sick, pathetic, degrading, a waste of time, and a drag on the human spirit.

But I think those things about 95% of American culture.

FWIW.

========

xxoo (platonic!)
Shark

We have to get beyond:

I'm a Christian so if you disagree with me you must be anti-christian.

There is nothing wrong with helping someone whose obsession with porn put them in a bad place.

The problem occurs when you make an entry with a lot of blanket statements about how porn is bad -- and then, while the first entry is still going both barrels (and as if we missed it in the first place) you do another one about how sex kills.

We know in this society that humans abuse a lot of things: alcohol, drugs -- prescription and overwise, food, porn, tv... And yet we allow these things to exist in society for the majority who are not addicted.

One of your contentions was that porn can stop people from forming meaningful relationships...so can sports. Women have been complaining about that since before the sexual revolution. Are we banning football?

Basically, you can't come to a board where the majority of people have no problems with porn and convince them it's bad 'cause you know other people who can't handle it.

>>Basically, you can't come to a board where the majority of people have no problems with porn and convince them it's bad 'cause you know other people who can't handle it.<<

Which means you can't do it anywhere, because our experience likely mirrors the rest of the world. This makes the life of the anti-porn crusader pretty frustrating, I imagine. It's why they usually end up parked accross the street from adult bookstores photographing the customers as they leave and then anonymously mailing the photos to their family and employers.

The truth about these crusaders is that they hate something within themselves that makes them want porn, and they take that anger out on others rather than addressing it within themselves.

Dave

Randy,

I think ONE of the things that is irritating people is that you seem to be really dishonest about your intentions. You continually say your not evangelizing, or preaching, but all the evidence points to the contrary.

Moreover, now you've switched to saying your here to help those with pornography addictions. Well, this is not the forum for doing that that. Set up a site for that purpose and drop a link here.

Frankly, I think your being dishonest here as well. I think your masking your agenda behind this pornography addiction counseling crap.

Your Agenda seems to be this; You are a Christian who feels compelled to save the world from itself. You believe that a world without Christianity is a living hell. You believe that those who don't adhere to Christian doctrine, are bad, sinful people. You're on a mission, randy, and you want to convert as many people as is possible to your way of thinking and to your religion.

I mean, if I'm wrong about any of this than tell me. But be honest with yourself, then be honest with us.

Porn is harmless everyone knows that

Man's Porn Addiction Went From Playboy To Jail
Scientists Differ Over Origins Of Pornography Enjoyment In Brain

POSTED: 3:38 pm CDT May 23, 2005
UPDATED: 1:00 pm CDT May 24, 2005

OMAHA, Neb. -- Doug Hall's story is the story of an addict. Recovering for years from a drug addiction and alcoholism, his latest battle is pornography.

Hall said he went from Playboy, to videos, to online porn, to jail.

"My view of sex was all a skewed," Hall said.
Video


Video: Man Says His View Of Sex Was A Skew




Hall said his addiction began simply. Years ago he saw his father reading a Playboy magazine.

"First it was Playboy and then it's Penthouse, then it's Hustler, then it's -- you just name it. Name your poison," Hall said.

When Hall turned to videos, he said, he couldn't wait to get to the store to rent some pornography. Soon, that wasn't enough. He bought a computer and within days was searching for porn online.

"I entered, I don't know what keyword, I put in the search engine, but it was probably just 'pornography' or 'porn' or whatever. And there's just a flood of different Web sites," Hall said.

Next, Hall -- a married man -- started meeting women in chat rooms.

"That evolved to meeting some of them in person. There were sexual relations with some of these women," Hall said.

RESOURCES
The Wife's Story

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12 Steps
Addictive Cycle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sexaholics Anonymous
Sex Addicts Anonymous



Hall ended his marriage. One night he went out dancing with one of the women he'd met online. They had some drinks, went back to his apartment and Hall said his companion passed out. But he wanted to continue the party.

"I wanted what I wanted, when I wanted it, and she seemed conscious enough to know what I was doing. In retrospect, it's clear that she wasn't, and I assaulted her," Hall said.

He even took pictures of the assault. That's how he was caught -- when workers at a photo lab thought something was wrong and turned him in. Hall was convicted of first-degree sexual assault and sentenced to five to 10 years in prison.

Now he says he realizes he's a porn addict.

"To say that I'm a porn addict, that has a social stigma," he said.

But he wants society to get past that stigma and see porn addicts like it does drug addicts or alcoholics -- people suffering from an illness.

Pam Kohll is a sex addiction therapist with the Center of Sexual Treatment and Recovery, or COSTAR. Kohll said a key factor in determining if someone is an addict is whether their need for pornography is persistent and escalating. Something to watch for is a person who spends hours on the Internet and hides what he or she is doing.

"Anytime you're hiding something, that's pretty much an indication it's a red flag," Kohll said.

But is it technically an addiction? Scientists are trying to determine that by scanning the brain. The areas that are stimulated by pornography light up in what is called the brain reward pathway. That's where the chemical dopamine is released when someone experiences pleasure. It's the same "feel-good" chemical that can lead to drug addiction.

"That's merging psychology and empirical science together and that's why I think that, yes. I think we're now understanding that all addictions come from the same place and they all should be treated the same way," Kohll said.

But there's a tremendous debate right now in the psychiatric world on whether to classify sex addiction as an addiction. If it is classified that way, insurance may cover the treatment. It's controversial because there's a wide range of opinions about what healthy sexuality is.

"A lot of it's affected by religion and by culture and so that's why it's hard to come up with one pat statement of what is healthy sexuality and what is addictive sexuality," Kohll said.

Hall said his life has improved tremendously. He and his wife are back together, he's getting counseling for his addiction and he said he has strong support from his church.

"I have way too much to lose by even allowing a hint of sexual immorality in my life at this point," Hall said.

Hall said he relies on books like "Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation."

"I didn't get screwed by the courts. This woman didn't do anything wrong," Hall said of his victim. "If I could undo that, I certainly would, but all I can do know is try to live my in a way that's pleasing to God."

Despite being posted under one of the names of Satan, this last comment has some relevant content. To wit, it does point out that porn addiction is an addiction, not normal behavior. In exactly the same way that most people can drink in moderation and a few become addicts, most people can use porn in moderation and very few become addicted. So it's not a problem with the porn, it's a problem with the addictive personality. The way to handle that is to treat the person, not attempt massive society wide prohibition - we know what a disaster that can be.

Dave

JUST WANT TO SAID TO YOU GOD BLESS YOU RANDY BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO LISTEN AND REALIZE THEY ARE WRONG ABOUT THE PORN. YOU STILL ARE PUTTING A SEED IN THEIR SOULS AND YOU ARE TELLING ABOUT THE LORD AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. AGAIN GOD BLESS YOU.