There's nothing wrong with porn. Like anything, when people become obsessed with it, they have a problem.

For a minute there, I forgot I was reading a blog and thought I was reading a free pamphlet in the laundromat.

Erotica has been around since people put graphic pictures on cave walls and pottery. Not everybody in this country loses all rational thought over some pictures.

IF, as you believe, porn is so disasterous to people and their perspective of relationships and commitment, I think rather than ban the porn, we look into why people define their relationships on the physical.

Some people marry for money. They don't love and they can build families and then decide to walk out on things in a moments notice. What's next, banning money because some people misuse it within relationships?

Where are these "stats" coming from? 1967-1970, 25-30 years, etc.

I thought teenage pregnancy was down. Listen, there is nothing wrong with porn. It's about our sex fantasies, and we've always had them. Now, instead of watching them in our heads, we can watch them on screen. Yippee! If you have a problem with porn, Randy, why is your name Randy? In England, randy is their word for horny. You need to change your name to Prissy.

You note that men have always masturbated when wives were not putting out and that wives enjoyed romance novels in times of old. What is the difference in these activities and using the internet for the same purpose?

What's the problem with engaging in sexual activity that can be seen in porno? As long as both parties are consenting, I don't see the problem in it.

I agree that pornography can cause a great deal of problems. You just haven't convinced me that porn in and of itself causes these problems. Maybe a little clarification on a few points would help.

Your observations are accurate and timely. I think the comments, however are even more informative. If the above responses are representative of our culture, it's time to get ready for the end-time shake-down cruise.

So you want to go back to the burqa days and the middle ages, then - porn was very much around even then. Heck, the Turin Egyptian papyrus is good porn!

And end-time dreams are as useful in the real-world as a long-term short-selling investor.

OMG, you can buy Josh McDowell books on Amazon. I thought they catered primarily to a literate audience - don't McDowell books come in picture-book format so that his core audience can understand them?

>>3. If you are doing internet porn, or any porn, you need help NOW! It is a devastating sin, and it is very progressive. E-mail me now! (Randy_Kirk@Californiasprings.com) Lets talk about it. If you are too embarrassed to use your real name, go get yourself a free e-mail and you can be anonymous<<

Does anyone else think this sounds like an invitation to engage in virtual online sex chat?

>>1. Western Civilization is not likely to be destroyed by invading hoards. It will probably not die out from some new disease. We probably will not run out of food, fuel, clean air, or water. It is much more likely that we will die from cancer, a cancer of our hearts, souls, and spirits. We need to do all of the following to prevent such an occurrence.<<

And the name of that cancer is judgemental self-righteousness.

----

It's clear from this post that the author himself had a problem with porn addiction and still has an addictive personality. Only those with addictive personality disorders can be "in bondage to internet porn". It takes a psychological disorder to be controlled by something which is entirely passive and does nothing to initiate control over you.

Clearly what's happened to this person is that they've swapped their porn addiction for a god addiction. This kind of tranfer of the focus of addiction is extremely common. It's what 12 step programs are based on. They don't cure your addiction, they just swap one addiction for another - usually trading psychological addiction to some substance for an addiction to the platitudes of religion.

The question is whether being a god addict is actually an improvement over being a porn addict. At least porn addicts don't judge the actions of others, try to proselytize, stygmatize people, or make posts like this one.

Dave

Internet porn ain't entirely passive. Porn spam is an active attempt to initiate a monetary relationship between the porn purveyor and the spam perusor.

However, that's a minor quibble with Dave's comment. Everything else he says is pretty much spot-on.

And, when a psychologically balanced person receives porn spam, there is no temptation to give the spammers money. There may be a perfectly natural and understandable temptation to track down the spammers and initiate a very physical relationship with every computer they use for spamming (preferably a relationship involving a sledgehammer or a brick), but there is no temptation whatsoever to give them any money.

Even the spam is essentially passive, because nothing about it forces you to open or read it. Once you do, the results are your responsibility.

Dave

But you have to click on that eMail offering you **Exciting Candid Pictures FREE**, don't you?

[snicker]

It looks like BlogCitics got targeted by a God group this week - Tons of posts in Books and Culture (and for all I know, Video and Music as well) that boil down to "isn't it great that I have accepted Jesus, don't you want to as well?"

Essentially passive, yes. "Entirely" is not the same thing as "essentially." (Kindly note that I am smiling while I say this.)

Spam is just active enough to snare people who are vulnerable because they are already looking for something to get addicted to. That makes spam ethically questionable, but it does not make spam a magical mind control device.

I appreciate all the comments, but the point seems to have been missed. Sure, I think porn is damaging to everyone who participates, both viewers and producers. But there is a new thing taking place that is cause for concern, maybe even alarm, if the trend extends.

"Many young single men are reporting that they no longer desire sex with �flesh-and-blood� women. They can get better sex by themselves with their computer than with a real woman, and they don�t have to take risks or be relational.

Many young single women are reporting that they are being coerced into doing �the things women do on internet porn� to satisfy their boyfriends, dates, ... oh, and husbands."

You don't have to be a Jesus Freak like me to contemplate the future of a world where this is the norm for even 20% of the population.

Those who are so cavalier in their comments are either too concerned about not getting their own needs met by porn, or have no idea how incideous this problem can be.

Randy, the things you describe sound like GOOD things, not bad.

What's wrong with less sex? I thought the fundies were all for that. What's wrong with people trying new positions and techniques?

I see these as positives.

Dave

Cavalier? I thought they closed that site down!

A percentage of people will abuse alcohol, drugs, porn, fruit roll-ups...They are not the norm.

There are guys who'd rather stroke that meet a nice Christian girl? Okay? There have always been people who have trouble making that connection. If someone has trouble with real women, it's quite possible that they will find release in masturbation. They need the outlet and don't want to be rejected...The porn did not cause this, the porn just helps stimulate the glands.

Women -- or human beings in general -- being persuaded to do things their partner desires is not new. If the act is morally objectionable to that person, it is incumbent on the person to state that. There are a lot of demands in a relationship other than sexual demands and the same rules apply.

I have a good marriage. I write erotica. Hubby looks at nekkid lesbians. We have fantasies we'd do...and fantasies which are hot, but remain fantasies. We do not blame bad decisions on porn.

In your piece you both lament the fact that men want to wank rather than have intercourse, AND the teen pregnancy rate. Isn't that schizophrenic? Is porn making people not want sex with partners, or is it making them procreate like bunnies?

And for the record, do you see the poor excuses for parents running around? Some of these people should have tossed off and called it a day, instead of inflicting their disfunction on innocent children.

Tell me true, Randy...you just want people to email you so that you hear naughty stories, yes? (Isn't "randy" a synonym for horndog?)

whoa, i'm amazed at the responses. i read the entire blog and wasn't really surprised by any of the facts or numbers. what surprises me is the fact that if you say porn is bad, alot of people will jump on you. that alone is proof that times have changed. i'm not gonna sit here and say i've got no hormones and that i've never seen porn before, but i'm certainly not gonna sit here and say "porn is okay". whether you're religious or not, some things are just plain as day.. black and white. i know everybody nowadays says "everybody should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else". it takes courage to stand up and openly disagree with that statement. i'm sure as hell not gonna let my kids grow up believing that porn is cool and that they have a legal right to be as immoral as they want. it's bullsh*t and everybody knows it... some people just don't have the courage to ADMIT when they know somethings wrong... cuz then god forbid, they've got some self examining to do.

if you don't mind being "desensitized", it's probably because you already are.

Nicolette,

Your comments are thoughtful and useful, but I still think lacking in vital information. It may be ok with you that your husband likes to view lesbians, but for the vast majority of wives, this is not the case. It would be as bad or worse than an affair.

I have posted a story of one such woman who wants to be ok with it, but in the end she isn't (http:www.ideaplace.blogspot.com).

I'm sure there are some women who don't feel threatened by their boyfriend or husband trying to muscle them into watching porn or copying what they see together. Strong women. Not all women.

Likewise, I'm sure there are guys who don't mind that there wives are thinking about some guy they are chatting with on the net while making love. Most men I know would not be pleased.

This part of our lives is usually pretty secret and difficult to talk about honestly. Thanks for you being one who will.

The point, which you miss, is that everybody needs to choose -- with their partners -- what works for them.

My point is not that every couple should model their marriage after my own, but rather to say making a blanket statement about porn being bad is overly simplistic.

A man who pressures his wife/girlfriend into doing something that they are uncomfortable with is wrong. Whether the pressure is for sexual acts is not the point.

The porn is not bad -- it's the coersion, pressure, and manipulation which is bad.

You tell me that porn interferes with relationships, and I say, "Depends on the relationship."

There's dirty pictures on the internet? Cool! You seem to know a lot about the internet. How do I get it?

Thanks,
Duane, Age 9

Damn!

*Adam (comment# 4) beat me to it! I just gotta get a bit faster on the draw.


*(Shark's version) "Wow! The ultimate irony: a Christoid rant against sex and porn by a guy named Randy!"

sheesh.

PS: Porn is partly responsible for the early development of just about every visual art technology in history (scuplture, painting, photography, film...); ie, the internet as porn developer is nothing new, so Randy-Boy, you should get down on yer worn-out, eschatalogical-anticipating knees and thank God for the porn entrepreneurs. Otherwise, you'd be 'evangelizing' using spit on a cave wall.

PPS: I agree that The End Is Near, but I happen to think it'll be brought about by people like Randy electing a U.S. President.

~Doh!

There are few things in this world that are "bad" in and of themselves. However, there are things which are temptations sold by other men with the hopes of luring others into addiction. Some of those addictions are relatively benign. Others not so. The reason I write on this subject is that I have seen the consequences up close and personal, and believe that this type of product has consequences that go far beyond what the average person sees. The tort laws dealing with strict liability result in small companies spending millions to recall products that merely cause an injury to one or two persons. The porn industry is causing long lasting injury to 10's of millions.

You're 9. You haven't even hit puberty yet.

Capt. Kirk to Nasty Nicolette: "...It may be ok with you that your husband likes to view lesbians, but for the vast majority of wives, this is not the case. It would be as bad or worse than an affair."

It's True! I seem to remember that one of the Commandments says,

"Thou shalt have no erotic relationship with two dimensional lesbians."

Randy,
nay,
Lord,

I pray to Our Lord that you never have children of your own. I pray that you never come to bare influence over any other human being. I pray someone saves you from your ignorance, and self-righteousness. Alas, lord, help Cap'n Kirk to save himself from himself.

Many types of porn are indeed not healthy and they do promote, in many cases, unhealthy social behaviors. Probably, most disturbing, is the subjugation and abuse of women, that most porn depicts.

However, you, my friend, should be the last person to ever pass judgment on someone else's sex life. I have enjoyed having sex with many women over the years, and I have nothing but wonderful thoughts for each of the women I've every been with. I bet that burns you up doesn't it? But really, I don't care what burns you up, because what burns you up, makes me feel happy. :-)

Get lost you fuckin bigot!

Jesus rather famously said that to lust after a women is the same as committing adultry.

Regarding the fact that porn helped to create visual arts and contributed to the advancement of the industries, thus advancing our civilization is so full of logical errors that it doesn't deserve a response. Try again.

I don't care what anyone says:

porn4life

Randy,
nay,
Lord,

I pray to Our Lord that you never have children of your own. I pray that you never come to bare influence over any other human being. I pray someone saves you from your ignorance, and self-righteousness. Alas, lord, help Cap'n Kirk to save himself from himself.

Many types of porn are indeed not healthy and they do promote, in many cases, unhealthy social behaviors. Probably, most disturbing, is the subjugation and abuse of women, that most porn depicts.

However, you, my friend, should be the last person to ever pass judgment on someone else�s sex life. I have enjoyed having sex with many women over the years, and I have nothing but wonderful thoughts for each of the women I've every been with. I bet that burns you up doesn�t it? But really, I don�t care what burns you up, because what burns you up, makes me feel happy. :-)

Get lost you fuckin bigot!

You've just copied the whole webpage! Why?

woops.. I dont know what I was doin there.. mistake. hehehe.. lets start fresh again with the most important posting....



Randy,
nay,
Lord,

I pray to Our Lord that you never have children of your own. I pray that you never come to bare influence over any other human being. I pray someone saves you from your ignorance, and self-righteousness. Alas, lord, help Cap'n Kirk to save himself from himself.

Many types of porn are indeed not healthy and they do promote, in many cases, unhealthy social behaviors. Probably, most disturbing, is the subjugation and abuse of women, that most porn depicts.

However, you, my friend, should be the last person to ever pass judgment on someone else's sex life. I have enjoyed having sex with many women over the years, and I have nothing but wonderful thoughts for each of the women I've every been with. I bet that burns you up doesn't it? But really, I don't care what burns you up, because what burns you up, makes me feel happy. :-)

Get lost you fuckin bigot!

Never mind, Sydney - fixed it for you.

***Jesus rather famously said that to lust after a women is the same as committing adultry.***

The Bible also says we are all sinners...which is the whole point of needing a savior. Yes?

Basically, presuming Christianity is right, we all fall short of the glory of God. We all sin. We all screw up.

Why are you focusing of the fun and tittilating sins? Why not gluttony or sloth? ;)

I don't think I copied the page. Don't know how that happened???? Anybody else know

spanks alot Aaman.

Oh. I have plenty to say about gluttony and sloth, but everyone has to have a specialty. If you would like to see the full range of my opinions go to http://www.ideaplace.blogspot.com, http://www.advertisingspecialty.blogspot.com, and google or Amazon my name.

My goal is to teach, not condemn.

What makes you think what you teach is more important than what I have to teach?

And you picked the hot and sexy speciality...I would too!

Randy, after reading your additional comments, I have to say that I respect your opinion on what is right and wrong, for yourself and your household, but the respect for your opinion would end there. It certainly does not extend towards you telling me what is right and wrong for me (the rest of us).

This post is another example of how evangelical Christianity is all about focusing on the weaknesses in man. Man must be saved from the image on the paper/screen. Man cannot handle the images. Man cannot handle moral diversity. Man cannot handle living in any other society than the one you consider ideal, blah, blah, blah.

Christianity, true evangelical Christianity, is all about the flaws of man. The worst type of ideology to be meshing with the State.

Heh, people like Randy would have me out of business even before I started or would probably burn me on a stake.

Guess my soul is already damned from their point of view.

Randy-Boy: "...Regarding the fact that porn helped to create visual arts and contributed to the advancement of the industries, thus advancing our civilization is so full of logical errors that it doesn't deserve a response."

And you daring to mention the word "logic" almost doesn't deserve a response.

PS: If we promise to stone you into martyrdom, will you promise to crawl back under one of them rocks we tossed?

Just curious...


============

"Masturbation: sex with someone I love." -- Woody Allen

Randy - I asked where you got your "stats" from up above and you responded (I think) with quoting your own post as "proof" for the theories you espouse.

To quote Someone From the South:

That dog ain't gon' hunt.

I wonder if you are going to use quotes here for your new "Sex Kills" book?

Hopefully, you would ask before doing so.

Eric:

I'm sorry. I never did specifically respond to your comment or to that question. Teen sex and pregnancy is down since 1993 when the abstinance movement got into full swing. Prior to that there was a pretty steady upward march of sex, disease, etc. This while planned parenthood had full control of the school curricula.

STD's are down, also, as would be expected, but are still out of control in the US and around the world.

Sydney, I don't think what I teach is more important that what you teach. I do believe that it is more likely to result in lives that are well-lived.

Swingingpuss,I don't believe that anything you are doing or not doing condemns you to hell. Those of use who profess Christ continue to sin. We are just forgiven, thus spend eternity in the light.

Christianity is not about flaws. The Bible is an instruction book not unlike the one that comes with the computer I'm using. If I following the directions, I get good results, if I don't I get natural consequences. My goal (at which I occassionally succeed) is to help folks get good results.

You still haven't explained where you got your facts from, Randy.

Further, I don't think you can tie a drop in teen pregnancy to the abstinence movement.

I don't have facts here to back me up (which I'm willing to state) but I'll bet that the wide availability of condoms and other birth control devices has just as much to do with it, if not more.

Yes, I would ask permission before quoting anyone. It is only rare that a quote from this type of forum would be of value. However, I am looking for first person articles about how porn or other sexual issues have effected lives. Not just the life of the writer, but frequently the person doing porn effects lots of other lives around them.

Anyone who starts out a post with "God is very predictable" is an outright whacko in my book. Someone so totally out there that they think they can predict what some imaginary diety will do or think next.

Have fun Randy, just don't expect to get much respect around here.

Eric, my stats are widely available from the CDC and other sources. Teen sex and its consequences pretty much peaked in '93. Birth control became widely available in the 60's along with abortion. It was after these ways of stopping births became effective, cheap, and available that sexual problems went crazy.

It is impossible to say how much of an effect the abstinance movment had. Maybe folks just god tired of getting STD's wrecking their lives, ending up in poverty because a child entered their lives while still in school, etc. Natural consequences do have a self correcting effect.

However, giving people a real option of abstinance seems to be beneficial, as well.

Bennett, I'm not going to sidetrack us into the GOD-Atheist debate, but I will post something next week that created quite a stir at Skeptic Mag. Wrong topic for this post.

You make this point:

The most recent example of this was the sexual revolution of 1967-1970. Many who have studied this time period have stated that never before in human history has a society changed so radically in such a short period of time.

And this point:

When a society chooses to take a new path into sin, the impact is not really seen for a generation. After 25 or 30 years the culture wakes up to the toll that the sin is taking, but now it is very hard to turn people away from what they are in bondage to.

Both can't be true at once. How can society be radically altered in a three-year time span (during the "1967-1970" sexual revolution you take note of... an era that I've never seen caluclated in such terms... thus the asking repeatedly for proof) yet not feel the "full impact" for another 25-30 years.

It doesn't make sense.

porn4life

Eric, wonderful point. However, it will take 4 paragraphs at least to answer. I will start this whole debate over again with a new post today or tomorrow. The 1996-99 sex revolution. What was it? What were the consequences.

Thanks for the idea. Many who come to blogcritics weren't alive to witness this period, so it is like reading ancient history.

I really don't think porn will ruin society as we know it. Porn, whether you like it of not, is a part of our society, and it's not gonna leave. Porn is like alcohol, has a potential to be very bad, but banning it would be a disastrous idea. Alcohol has been around for centuries, but it didn't destroy society. The same goes with pornography.

***The 1996-99 sex revolution. What was it? What were the consequences.

Thanks for the idea. Many who come to blogcritics weren't alive to witness this period, so it is like reading ancient history.***

Yeah, only those of us over 6-years-old.

lol

While I don't agree with Randy's views in the least, the other posters who share my opinion have made me feel a little embrassed. Where's your tact, guys? Why can't you just ask poigniant questions and challenge respectfully, instead of hurling insults?

V.Ko

You're right, but I find it disturbing to suddenly have blogcritics invaded by a group of evangelical christians. Not becoming part of BC and providing thoughtful reviews, but rather they seem intent on "spreading the word" and "removing barriers to salvation", and explaing why we will never "sit alongside god in grace everlasting" because damn near everything we do is a SIN to them.

If I wanted saving, I would go visit a christian website, or better yet, I would go to a local church for spiritual guidance. I am free not to read any more of Randy's posts (done deal after this comment), because there is no point in debating anything with people who feel that god wants them to preach to EVERYONE, ANYWHERE.

Or perhaps BC will spin of a separate blogsite for christians

Blogcritics For Christ!

Where is my tact? why cant we challenge respectfully?

V.Ko, I'm very tempted to run off a whole string of expletatives aimed in your direction.

Instead I'll try to show some tact...

I don't give a fuck about being tactful in response to a man who shows no respect to me, nor to anyoen else who disagrees with him. This man's philosophy, while being based on lies, is predicated on the belief that their is only one true way to live a righteous life. Apparently he has the answer adn he'll simply deflect anything anyone says to challenge it.

REmember, his reasooning is based on faith. He doesnt need logic to legitimize his beliefs, or his values.

REally I don't give a fuck for a person like that. he can suck my hairy balls (tactfully).

So Bennet,

Just looking for your own opinions to be verified? No interest in hearing from folks who might not agree with you.

I'm not blogging at this location to evangelise, though anyone who want to make a decision for Christ can give me a hollar.

I'm doing this because there are varying points of view about the subject of porn and its consequences. The articles that I have linked at http://www.ideaplace.blogspot.com regarding this subject are all from very liberal sites. These are liberal, non Christians who are concerned.

So, if you want to live in a land where you only hear your own opinion, go to a land where there is only one opinion allowed. In the good ole USA, we all get freedom of speech, not just liberals and atheists.

V. Ko, I can't speak for anyone else, but my whole life has been having to live under this 'what is right for you' mentality at the hands of oppressive religious ideologies. I am allowed to show the same amount of respect to someone, as they show to me, when they compare the loving family unit in my home to necrophilia, molestation or adultery (both which were done on this thread). I give back the respect with which I am first accorded, always.

"I'm not blogging at this location to evangelise"

What a joke that is!

There have always been people on BC that I disagree with, argue with, trade insults with. Folks 180 degrees opposed to my thoughts on politics, cultural issues, musical tastes, and the concept of morality. But NONE of them use religion to back up the logic of their statements. That is not debate, it's reciting dogma.

You take a position and then say "it's in the bible, so it's absofuckinlutely correct", look it up.

I reject the notion that christianity, your flavor particularly, can contribute anything meaningful to the discussion here at BC.

You have an agenda, and I'm not buying.

Randy, the world is more at risk from, hopefully well-meaning people who think they understand the world and want to foist their own neurosis on to it. Please seek help.

90% of my point or more have nothing to do with religion. Either sex has consequences or it doesn't. Is porn that shows people doing sex with aniimals ok with you? Sex with death? Where do you draw the line? I'm sure its somewhere, just different than me.

While I don't agree with Randy's views in the least, the other posters who share my opinion have made me feel a little embrassed. Where's your tact, guys? Why can't you just ask poigniant questions and challenge respectfully, instead of hurling insults? - posted by V.KO

i agree with Randy to an extent. I can't where I stand religion-wise, but I do believe in basic principles and in watching out for what's good for everybody. that being said, whether you agree with Randy or not, calling somebody "a faggot" for speaking their mind is sorta scary. I mean, when I was a kid, in movies... people like that were the BAD guys. lol

Well, personally I agree with a lot of what Randy's saying in terms of the fact that I believe most pornography promotes and depicts unhealthy social behaviors.

But that's my opinion and it's been influenced by sociological studies done on the subject ( I did a paper on it one year in university). Moreover, I don't go around condemning people on my god's behalf.

I OBJECT to Randy's behavior as I think it is far more destructive than the pornography he is condemning.

So I see where you're coming from Larry. And I agree, that the term "faggot" is a horrible term. But the discussion about pornography can't happen at this post because it's overshadowed by a more unethical practice: evangelism and bigotry.

I find it interesting that I've posted a fairly controversial article about fear and greed that has no religious aspect to it at all. Not one comment. Maybe you all really prefer mixing it up on a topic like sex.

Randy?

I assume your talking about another post because this one has Porn written in teh title.

Porn is fun
Porn is good
I stroke my gun
While I stroke my wood

Randy - Don't be an attention whore. You don't deserve commentary on your posts - you earn it. Fear and Greed? Well, I think you've already developed a reputation with the posts you chose to pubish here first.

First impressions and all that.

As I mentioned elsewhere,; step back and know your audience - then perhaps you won't feel so maligned and victimized.

If there are comments that do truly offend you - such as "faggot" we can edit them out, at our discression. Eric O or Phillip Winn, Temple 9me), or the editor of the section where you post - any of those.

Breathe. Same goes for Syndey, who every now and then does regret mouthing off - but probably not in your case. Her right, too.

"that has no religious aspect to it at all. Not one comment."

Beg to differ, you made at lease four overt religious statements, and several other references to "sin", which references a strictly religious concept.

In this post you wrote:

"God is very predictable."

"Do any of the above statements apply to you? To your husband, wife, son, daughter, grandchild, sister, brother, friend, brother or sister in Christ?"

"Tell anyone who is in bondage to this material that there is forgiveness in Christ, and that they need to ask forgiveness and turn from this sin."

"Make sure that your brother or sister in Christ is truly saved. Are they going to repent?"

So maybe it's not the lurid sex contained in your post that stimulates so much comment. Count 'em up, pros and cons. What does that tell you?

He's talking about a separate post he made.

Dammit! All that typing to point out the unpointafiable.

Still, it wasn't the sex/porn that brought out the rancor in the comments.

Correct :-)

Randy Kirk,You claim in Comment#65 that
this article has no religous aspect to
it all. But the first words out of your
mouth are :"God is Predictable" and you
wrap this up with an inane statement on
how there is forgiveness in Christ and
repenting,etc.Are you just full of shit,
blind or what? That's some weird shit
dude.

Porn = Reality...something to see
God = Superstition...requires faith which is a suspension of reason.
I'll take some DVD's now...if God doesn't like it....well...see me in hell!

***Either sex has consequences or it doesn't.***

Of course sex has possible consequences...you seem to only notice the possible (and usually preventable) negative ones.

There's also pleasure.

....Many young single men are reporting that they no longer desire sex with "flesh-and-blood" women. They can get better sex by themselves with their computer than with a real woman, and they don't have to take risks or be relational......

Any young man who feels that way needs some help.

I never saw the need for it myself.

I raised two girls and both of them have healthy feelings about sex because I have always been open and honest with them about sex. I did not make it something evil that should be avoided at all cost. I find that if you are honest with your kids and do not make sex nasty or evil, they are more likely to sit down and talk to you about it.

Do they watch porn? One does and openly says she does. She is 22. The other is 21 and says she is not interested in watching it all that much.

"let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

wasn't that about folks giving grief to Mary Magdalene for her lifestyle/profession?

leave it to the Gnostic Taoist to come up with that one, eh?

one other bit of thought here...about this "absinence movement" and it's effects...

one might be able to show a correlation to teen pregnancies being down as a response to higher levels of masturbation to porn, rather than rash experimentation with sex that produces unwanted pregnancies...

or

one might look at the 6 year study , taken fokids who signed on to the "abstinence pledge"

their own figues show that the percentage of the absinence kids who woudl up having sex was within the margin of error as those who did not

but the real interesting part is that the abstinence pledge takers were..

6 times mroe likely than there coutnerparts to engage in oral sex

and 4 times as likely to engage in anal sex

so it appears that they found some loop"holes" in the Contract...

to me, this would tend to show that education > abstinence "pledges"

your mileage may vary

Excelsior!

I read a good article about a similar topic last year in a magazine. It said that when porn first started to become prevalent many people were writing that it would cause a society of sexcrazed rapists, unable to control their sex drives. Exactly the opposite, it turned out that it may have caused a society that can't interact with real people, and only wants sex with slaves who do anything one wants. i don;t agree with the religious salvation from this problem, but I think Mr Kirk's point is valid.

Having been in the adult entertainment industry years ago, I can tell you that any problems that people within the industry might experience is related to the ostracization of the industry. I'm not saying that America needs to openly embrace porn, but when you stigmatize something or some group of people on a large scale, THAT STIGMATIZATION is what causes the negative consequences. A healthy outlook on sexuality helps to avoid any problems anyone in the industry might come across.

If you believe that sex is a gift from your Creator, then you are going to be extremely traumatized by seeing porn or by finding yourself in the industry in some way. But people like that don't really end up in the industry in the first place.

If you think that a healthy outlook on sex includes porn, i have to disagree.

"If you think that a healthy outlook on sex includes porn, i have to disagree."

That would be your perogative. Would you care to elaborate?

Every porno I have seen is about male domination of women. The man walks in to do plumbing and the woman is blowing him in ten seconds. The women all love semen on their face, anal sex, and three men banging them at once. Even so called lesbian porn is for the pent up males enjoyment. And at the root of it all is looking at other people having sex. Is that healthy? Take it out of the movie aspect and go watch other pepole through the window having sex, is that healthy? Sex is so over emphasized. Every women's mag and men's magazine says you should be having sex 7 times a week or your weird. Look at tthe way high schoolers are dressing. Everyone thinks they should be having sex all the time, its not healthy.

Um, presumably my neighbors do not wish to put on a show for me, so THAT would not be healthy. Taking it out of the "movie aspect" is not valid because we are talking about pornography and not spying on unaware people.

I'm currently aware of an anthology of lesbian porn. It is written by women, the readership is women, and the publishing house is comprized of women. And the male domination aspect happens when? And the satisying of male frustrations will be starting when?

This whole arguement negates the fact that some women enjoy the movies, books, and sites also -- both creating and viewing.

>>"let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

wasn't that about folks giving grief to Mary Magdalene for her lifestyle/profession?<<

Ah Gonzo - not up on the current religious revisionism. They're now trying very hard to make the case that Mary Magdelene was not a prostitute.

Dave

and i concur that the Magdalene was most likely not the "fallen woman" referred to in another section of the Gospels...i am also well aware of two possible sources for the mistake...

but i am also quite aware of the standard interpertation amongst most sects that utilize rthe King James "translation" of the New Testament..and couldn't resist tossing that one out there to make my point..

if parables were a good enough teaching tool for Yeshua...then they are damn sure good enough for this Jester, eh?

c'mon, Mr Nalle..tell the Truth..it made even you smile...didn't it?

Excelsior!

on another note..i know of a particularily steamy bit of porn and i wanted to find out Randy Kirk's take on it's long term effects..

you know..the "Song of Solomon"

raunchy stuff there..

Excelsior!

addressing comment 81 and 83, there is erotica and there is smut. Just like there is Filet Mignon and the ever more plentiful Big Mac.

As far as the sex scenes that degrade women and follow a specific routine, yeah, that happens and I don't know why beyond the fact that is what is bought. Women producers have gotten into the field and made soft porn (but still explicit) but that focuses on lovemaking and romance instead of rutting. It doesn't sell as well. So I believe that is the consumer that is setting the standard there, but yeah a lot of people in the field do lack creativity.

Someone called me a girl again. I'm actually a male. There arn't many women as foul mouthed as I have been these past 2 days.

I'll tone it down....

"This whole arguement negates the fact that some women enjoy the movies, books, and sites also -- both creating and viewing."

-- Thats not a surprise but it is often the case that people enjoy what hurts them, or what indirectly hurts others. all the while, being unware of it's effect. education is key-- then we make decisions for ourselves.

Having, said that, I think lesbian porn is of a whole different world. Women are chiefly the victims of heterosexual porn. However, Lesbian porn subverts alot of these damaging roles depicted in heterosexual porn.

But Sydney, you're so pretty....

As for negative images of women in porn, I just don't see it. I'm by no means a porn expert - though I do have Cinemax - but from what I've seen, there are plenty of images of women in dominant or at least equal roles to men. In fact, this seems to be a major male fantasy, so I assume they're catering to that market. Maybe things are different in ultra hardcore deviant porn, but the mainstream seems much more balanced.

Dave

Cinemax is porn?

Cinemax isn't all porn, but they do show a great deal of softcore porn and quasi-hardcore with the 'hardest' bits edited out, yes.

There's a campaign by people like Randy to get Cinemax taken off of cable subscription packages. I think the AFA is behind it.

Dave

Violence is the "Real" porn. In many of
the countries of the EU there is much
more censorship of ultra violence than
of sexual explicitness.

Violence that goes seemingly unpunished
and/or is for the most part gratuitious
is looked upon with disdain.I personally
think that a violent scene(or scenes)in
a movie can be often times implied and
have a much,much stronger effect on the
pysche than just graphic bloodletting.

In some movies it is a integral part of
the movie and it is neccessary to move
the film along,as such movies as "The
Wild Bunch" by Peckinpah are testament
to.However,I also feel that movies this
violent should be carrying much stronger
ratings/warnings than those with nudity
or sexual content do.

It seems much easier to explain to a
younger person about sexuality and just
what they are doing with their clothes
off than trying to explain gratuitous
violence which really does IMO help to
de-sensitize some people to violence and
the like.This all boils down to parents
and the standards they set for their own
children ultimately, though society as a
whole should take some degree of the
responsibility. The whole "It takes a
vilage to raise a child" axiom is quite
applicable here to what I'm trying to
say.

For the record I find the majority of
Porno's to be boring personally and that
also applies to the movies that rely on
violence to move them along in lieu of
any real plot or storyline as well.

Sydney -
So women cannot make an intelligent decision to enjoy erotica? They are either forced into it or ignorant to the damage?

Now if they would only combine the ultra-hardcore porn with ultra-violent mainstream films we'd have a sure winner.

Dave

HW -- Excellent thoughts, and I very much agree. There's much more of an urge to purge sex and sexuality in the U.S. than violence, which really speaks more to our puritanical impulses than to anything else.

Eric, If you change "impulses" to "indoctrination" I'd agree with you.

Hell, I agree anyway, just picking nits.

:-]

Yeah, that's interesting... good word choice there, Bennett.

I am a fan of porn. Have been since I was about 14. Amber Lynn, Ginger Lynn, Porsche Lynn were 3 favs my friends and I liked for year in the 80's. I am 36 and still a fan. I have met numerous porn stars over the past 15 years and they are no different than anyone else. Just they get paid to have sex on screen. Big deal.
Jenna Jameson is porn's biggest star, and rightfully so, she is beautiful and her movies are a far cry from her being dominated. She ends up being the aggressor is most of her flicks.
Porn is not the root of evil in society like so many seem to think.
And when did it become wrong for a guy to sit there and masterbate fantasizing about some woman or w woman laying in bed masterbating thinking of some guy?
It is all human nature to relase that sexual build up regardless if you are in a relationship or not. Lots of couples enjoy watching porn as they like to try different positions they have heard of but never seen.
Even some people will have orgies, so what, if they all consent to having a wild fun time of sex, so be it. No one has a right to judge anyone for it. And to blame porn for these "wrong" things people do is just typical with society looking for a controversial subject matter to lay blame to, instead of taking full accountability for your own actions.
"Watching Jenna Jameosn get nailed by 3 guys made me talk my girlfriend into doin me and 2 of my friends" ya ok sure. So many guys have a fantasy to be with 2 women and so many women have a fantasy to be with 2 guys. Human nature.

As long as it doesn't involve kids, animals, or violence, I think porn is fine. I haven't seen a lot. Most of them were just plain boring (no plot, bad acting), but a couple were well done, a few were witty, and one was downright hilarious, one of my favorite comedies. Not too long ago, I set out to read the bible cover to cover, no skipping. Hadn't ever done it before, as usually I'd followed the church schedule of a few verses a day. I hadn't gotten more than a few pages into Genesis, when I had to stop. Sex, incest, murder, drunken orgies, gang rapes, and all kinds of shocking stuff going on, & I had to check the cover of the book to make sure it really WAS the King Jim bible! These were all the parts they apparently skip in church readings and sunday school, that fools like me are blissfully unaware of. So I took it slower, and more cautiously. By the time I had gotten to David & his shenanigans, I was SO fed up with this pack of pious porn, I just couldn't stand it any more, and quit. If I were to write a review of the bible as literature, with the exception of the psalms & proverbs, in the main I would have to classify it AS porn, and badly written porn at that. The entire OT is rife w/it. So those persons who object on religious grounds based on the christian bible, you have no basis. The bible is nothing for those under 21 to be reading, if they want to keep their minds clean.

Otherwise, porn has been with us since probably the very first hominid picked up a stick and made scratches in the ground. I'll bet it came soon after the first ribald remark or dirty joke, about the time of the later australopithecines, if that late. Jane Goodall has even observed chimps seemingly joking about sexual matters, playing sex tricks on each other.

Finally, there's always the fact that a lot of 'dirty' stuff is in the eye of the beholder. What I think is porn may not faze Dave or gonzo, who might be horrified at what turns on Swingingpuss (no offence, guys - just using examples). Fantasies of any kind are fine, as long as they remain just that. The problem is when they take over, and I think that has more to do with an individual's personal psychiatric proclivities than generic human behavioral tendencies.

Problem is that porn is morally wrong.
Everyone draws limits to what is too far. Most lack that judgment, thus porn is widespread.
I confess that when I was a teenager I occassionally watched porn. I am in my early 20's, and don't even think about it. Porn doesn't have anything sensual in it, because the observer doesn't share the sensual emotions the partners might have. It limits the imagination as well. Masturbation is not a sin, so do it, but have a standard.

Must we outlaw everything that's morally wrong? Suppose we all agreed porn is morally wrong. I agree with that statement. I'm not sure that means we have to make it illegal, though.

If we make it illegal to profit from doing anything morally wrong, a vast number of the world's most profitable corporations will instantly become outlaws, with their executives and employees subject to arrest and imprisonment.

That includes Microsoft, all the oil companies, and the entire memberships of the RIAA and the MPAA, to mention only a few.

....Many young single men are reporting that they no longer desire sex with "flesh-and-blood" women. They can get better sex by themselves with their computer than with a real woman, and they don't have to take risks or be relational......

Replace "computer" with magazine, prostitute, brothel or strip joint and you'll see that sex has been for sale for EVER...the argument that internet porn sites have introduced some new reason to fear the breakdown of human relationships is naïve.

As far as "addiction" is concerned, people walk by liquor stores every day and don't become addicted. Do we blame those stores for those who use and abuse alcohol?

Healthy sexual relationships are created by healthy sexual people. Unhealthy sexual relationships are not caused by media, peer pressure or spam. They begin well before the sex-act occurs.

This argument is weak.

I was having a discussion with some people a few weeks ago, and the subject of violent pornography (which is banned in Australia) came up. They said that it was illegal because most of society thought that it was bad for society (without any real proof, IMO), so I thought that it was an example of tyranny by majority. They were indignant and said that there was no comparison between banning violent porn and slavery. They also said that most people now know that laws against sex in anything but missionary-style are victimless crimes that no one follows any more.

So I asked where the victim was when consensual violent porn was made. She said that it could create a black market for real violence (which would be cheaper) and endanger people in 3rd world countries. The other guy then also linked it to snuff films (with real death and murder). If that's the case, then wouldn't violent movies encourage the same thing for them? Not to mention the shocked and desensitized censors in Australia who review all films and ban a few - should they be shuffled around every few years? Regardless, banning something harmless because of a potential 'niche' black market is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMO.

Now, onto paedophilia. I agree that molesting and sexually abusing children is wrong, and those who do it should be punished. That said, such a goal is not achieved by targeting irrelevant issues, such as cartoon paedophilia (if anything, letting pedos look at this reduces real child rape by letting them get their jollies of something fake with no victims. Some people look at it because they wanted to have sex while they were younger teenagers).

Also, the film Ken Park was banned in Australia because it had over-18s pretending to be under 16 and having sex. I didn't see a problem with this because they were over 18, and thus legally allowed to be in pornography. My cousin got angry and said "But they're pretending to be under 16, right? That's just wrong!"

So, being 18 isn't enough to be in porn, you have to look over 18 as well? I thought these laws were based on mental maturity, not how old someone looks. Once again we have a law that protects no one and reduces civil rights.

I'd also like to add that although such busybodies are trying to 'stop child rape' by forbidding pedophilles to whack off to fake pictures, by doing so they are increasing the likelihood of child rape by not allowing pedos to release their sexual frustration in a harmless way.

One controversial case occured earlier, and I disagree with what the perpetrator did. He took a photo of an underage girl's face, and put it onto the body of an adult woman using computer graphics editing. While I don't think what he did qualifies as 'child porn', he had no right to do that to the girl's face.

Another thing social conservatives tried to do was ban any photo taking of children at sports carnivals for fear of the pictures being used by pedophiles, but that was stopped after public outrage.

From the website: "Other researchers have found similarly. In Denmark homosexual child molestation decreased more than 50 percent from 74 cases in 1966 to 20 cases in 1969 (Ben-Veniste, 1971; pp. 254). These decreases in sex crimes involving children are particularly noteworthy since in Japan, as in Denmark, for the time under review, there were no laws against the personal non-commercial possession or use of depictions of children involved in sexual activities; so-called "childporn" (Kutchinsky, 1985a; pp. 5). Considering the seriousness in how sex crimes against children are viewed in both cultures, this drop in cases reported represents a real reduction in the number of offenses committed rather than a reduced readiness to report such offenses."

Ok, it is of my opinion that in general there is nothing particulary wrong with pornography, as with anything, when overdone it can be serious.

However, I just think getting aroused through porn is probably the saddest thing anyone can do. What would you rather be doing, sat in front of your computer browsing porn or having a laugh out pulling all the fitties clubbing, etc...

I do agree that one does require to release some sexual from time to time, but there are other far more enjoyable of doing it other than looking at porn.

I dont deny that ive never looked at porn, but when I do though I think afterwards that ive just completely wasted the last half hour of my life.

Dont do it people, get out your house and have some fun!!!

A long time ago I saw some porn films. One was pretty entertaining, because it had a plot & some humor totally aside from the sex, which actually was pretty incidental/gratuitous/lacking in credibility as far as situation went; I think the title was "Bad Penny". The rest of them were just ludicrous & lame, even if they were supposed to be "classics", and I couldn't see what the draw was. They weren't even really dirty - just boring, with no discernable plots, just a string of "excuses" for the main characters to hump anyone they came across every few seconds. Pretty sorry excuses for wasting film. Anyone needing that sort of thing for a turn on is sorely lacking in imagination as well as initiative, IMO.

Porn is a personal choice thing; it's not something I'd ever watch in the company of others. It offers relief from sexual tension (albeit temporarily). It is something though that should be controlled by adults for adults; never should it be available where minors are present. I agree with those who say it has been around since time in memorial, its part of human nature, so to cast it as something evil or sinful is a joke. You cannot ban human nature! It can be driven underground though, but I fear if that happened it would become even more likely for younger people to get hold of. And so, if you think it is dangerous in the hands of those who would use it against society's young and innocent - best have a re-think. Another point I'd like to make, and has already been addressed, pornography is never distasteful when it is mutual.

I'd just like to add here that violence is the real porn and there's nothing more violent than the bible (don't even get me started on its porn!)

randy: "I am looking for first person articles about how porn or other sexual issues have effected lives."

the first time i saw porn was when i was very young. my babysitter had found my dad's stack... caught by a 10-year-old, he did what any good teenager would do for a prepubescent child--he let me look at it.

women! they have nice looking parts of their body that i do not! oh my gawd. lovely. i got over my childhood dislike for females that very moment. unlike that god guy. he never did understand women. loser.

flash forward a few years. i spooge for the first time. thank you, porn. that felt really really nice. i would like to do that again.

flash forward a few more years... not knowing too much about the mechanics of sex on a scientific level (i grew up in the bible belt), i am thankful to porn when the time comes for me to finally get laid. i slap on that condem, finger her a bit to check her wetness, then ram her home.

a few minutes later, i am satisfied. it got better. i've done it many, many times since, and i've gotten more creative (thank you porn) and more... lasting (thank you porn... changing positions certainly does help).

i think if i had found christ instead of porn that day, my feelings toward sex would be totally wrapped up in some sense of guilt or death... instead, sex has become one of my favorite evening (and morning) (and middle of the day) activities. i know it to be a beautiful thing, and one that can be done safely.

the level of frustration i felt in my teens has decreased to zero and i feel satisfied and i sleep much better at night. not only do i live a life free of self-righteousness and fear, i have known a series of wonderful women, some of whom i have felt deep and genuine love for. part of being in a relationship is sex. and sex is the best part of the day.

this is my story! spread it like lube all up and down your readership!

and oh yeah, you could have written this whole article without the references to christ. people like sex. a lot. they want to do it. guilting them into not doing it just makes them want to do it more. so there. stick to facts, because it will convert a whole bunch more of us sinners.