Al:

That is so totally not politically-correct.

And, you are absolutely right. I think (but, one would quickly ask: "What the hell do I know?") the reaction from the Muslims that did react was simply the inevitable result of putting a very small fuse near a very big powder keg. It was an opportunity for that population to express rage that was actually the result of many, much larger issues.

Newsweek did, apparently, err but I think the reaction was more to pent up - if, IMHO, misplaced - rage among the Muslims. They have a great deal to be ticked off about.

Cheers,

Ron

But dietdoc...islam is the religion of peace! Aren't they supposed to turn the other cheek? Oh wait, that's christianity...

Sorry, but like Al says, until the leadership in this so-called religion of peace step up and straighten out their flocks, this stupid shit will keep happening. Muslims will always have something to be "ticked off" about until they get what they want, which is an entirely muslim world...guess they'll just have to stay "ticked off", because I ain't converting!

The real irony here is that there are now reports (unverified, and probably doomed to drowning in bureaucratic red tape) that there actually was a Koran flushing incident. The thing is, the act was perpetrated by one of the detainees as a protest. He (allegedly) tore out pages of his own Koran and flushed them himself. I heard this on an NPR report, and it was sufficiently padded with statements like "we are still investigating this" as to lead me to believe it would never get much publicity. It's possible it's not true either, or simply too underdocumented to be reported as certain.

But that does lead me to an area where I think Newsweek is in fact culpable. They were far too quick to jump on this story to report it. What would it have hurt to hold off a week or so to verify it? Was it really that big of a scoop? Or was it just a way of jumping on the bash-the-administration bandwagon? I strongly suspect the latter, and as such, it boils down to abysmal journalism, no matter how anyone reacted to it.

Andy writes: Muslims will always have something to be "ticked off" about until they get what they want, which is an entirely muslim world...guess they'll just have to stay "ticked off", because I ain't converting!

Reply: I personally believe it affords them the chance to fire off all those cool AK-47's they have into the air - or at each other. But, again, that is my opinion.

Cheers,

Ron

I too am fed up with the antics of Muslims and their shrill demands to be treated with kid gloves. Screw them. They have proved many times over that they are determined to be outraged at something - anything - and will seize on whatever they can to justify their stupid temper tantrums and barbaric, criminal behavior against the rest of the world. The facts are, Muslim culture encourages exaggerated, primitive macho behavior, is misogynistic and as repressive as anything the Christian inquisition came up with, and (yes, I have read the Koran and the Hadith) Islam itself is sure as hell no "religion of peace" - not unless by peace you mean employing any and all possible means to destroy whoever you designate as the Enemy (i.e. all non-muslims) so that there's noone left to hold differing points of view. I can't even count all the Surah passages where Mohammed approves of violence against non-Muslims, for a variety of reasons, including saying bad things about him personally. That's not a religion of peace by any definition or stretch of imagination. So I for one am no longer going to go in for being politically correct and pretending to believe this sort of crap, or that Muslims have any more right to priority respect than anyone else in the world. If they want it, they should damn well behave in such a way as to deserve it, and they can start by showing a little respect for the rest of the world as well. Respect is earned, not inherent, it is mutual, and it is based on civilized behavior - not ranting and riots.

Al,

Fair points. I might be belaboring the obvious if I touch on the following

> Inability of their societies to productively channel these reactions (Their worlds are not yet Flat)
> Historical sense of humiliation in these societies
> Recent (last few years) sense of excesses in US-international affairs creating a sense of resurgent imperalism
> Provocative leaders (the imams) exercising their strangehold over the umma
> The oil curse

The Koran issue is a minor provocation compared to the above.

Lastly, it is unfair to categorize all Muslims in this reactionary category as some commenters do.

Historical sense of humiliation??? You mean the fact that the first time muslims tried to take over the world and were beat back by the crusaders? That humiliation??? Or the humiliation from the fact that they control a third of the worlds oil reserves? Oh wait, that must be the oil curse...wtf is the oil curse?

You can make excuses for these fanatics all you want, but until I hear loud and clear from a majority of muslims that this shit is wrong I will continue to paint them with the broad brush I do!

Google for "oil curse" - here are a few examples: Foreign Affairs - a preponderance of resources is often found to be a curse more than a blessing.

You are deluded if you think a majority of Muslims agree with these sentiments. They do not need to raise up their hands to be counted. This is an internal debate in the Islamic world as much as a global debate.

Incidentally Al, Imran Khan is a cricketer not a politico, and he was in Chicago this Friday. He is a leading critic of the US war.

Also, Afghanis feel very strongly about the Gitmo prison camp where they feel a number of their citizens have been held injustly for a long time.(Ref: the Chicago Sun-Times)

You're right...look what a preponderance of resources has done to this country! Damn, what was I thinking...I guess it's like the kids I grew up with whose families had to much money...they never knew how to act either!

Those "people" being held at Gitmo are POW's, who cares what they think!

Aaman, I'll ask you the same question I posted on another thread: if as you say the majority of Muslims do not agree with the radical/terrorist Muslim factions and their violence, then why aren't they saying anything? Where are the leaders and why aren't THEY saying anything, in public, loud and clear? I hear nothing from any of them except a thundering silence, which to most of the world implies tacit approval. Why are the 'civilized' Muslims allowing the rabble to tar them with the same brush?

On that point, Nancy, I'll have to let them speak for themselves, but I assure you that this is a discussion held among Muslim circles and in leading media organizations in the Muslim world, even if the Western media chooses not to focus on this aspect of Islam. As an example, take a look at Al Jazeera's home page right now: a section called "Who's Telling the truth?" asks some difficult questions", putting both points of view on the table. Examples: "Human rights activists claimed that Syrian dissident Ahmed Ali al-Masalma, arrested on returning from exile in Saudi Arabia, has died in custody, but his family denied- You decide.", "Some media sources claim that the latest attacks in Egypt signal a return to violence? But the Egyptian authorities deny- You decide!"

Here is an article on "The Islamic Debate over Suicide attacks". Here is an article I wrote on "Islamic Secularism". Numerous examples can be found of similar thought.

At the same time, I will agree with you that not enough is being done. The jihadis and tahiris are anti-innovation and anti-modernism - in the flat world, they will be rendered irrelevant.

and then there is Arab Idol

A moment of sanity shines through. Thanks Al.

Aaman - Imran is a cricketer AND a politician, member of the Pakistani parliament, from the reports I've seen.

You're right - I'm sorry I forgot that. His celebrity of course comes from his cricket history.

yes, very nice job of putting it in perspective Al

Andy, you wrote: "Those 'people' being held at Gitmo are POW's, who cares what they think!"

By your placement of the word in quotes, I infer that you think of every single one of the POWs at Gitmo as being something other than a person. Am I right in my assumption? Do you really think that all of the POWs at Gitmo are less than human, or am I reading too much into your message?

Gitmo - not to mention the what, 200 detainees that were just released because nobody could figure out why they were in Gitmo to begin with?

Two YEARS of my LIFE in a cage in a zoo? For being at the wrong place at the wrong time? Uh, I'd be pissed off about it. "What the fuck took you so long to figure out you had nothing on me?"

I've been hearing the argument for some time that we're at war, so we're justified in doing whatever we like to extract information from (and generally humiliate) POWs (wait, are they POWs or are they detainees? I'm not clear on that one, but I guess that's the point, isn't it?).

Nobody said that when we were fighting the Germans during WW II, and we were losing thousands of combatants every day to the Nazis. The Germans actually lived better in American POW camps than the black American soldiers who were fighting to destroy Facism.

Of course, back then we knew they were POWs because they wore uniforms. The jihadists don't wear uniforms (and they don't read the bible) so they must not be worthy of ethical treatment (or even reasonable proof of guilt), right?

Its easy for anyone to see that no matter what the Americans say or do, they will be blamed for everything. This Koran story was just an excuse. Americans make the mistake of thinking that Afghans are grateful to the US for liberating their country from the Taliban.... They are not. All you have to do is scratch the surface and out it comes.

The rioting has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. For example, if Newsweek had written that soldiers from a European country had flushed a Koran down the toilet, I doubt if this reaction... or at least something to this level.. would've occured. There was no rioting when the Serbs did similar things, was there?

But because Newsweek is an *American* magazine that made this claim about *American* guards... all hell breaks loose.

The moment the US leaves Afghanistan, watch these guys spread their wings. Right now they're keeping their heads down.

And now, a little background on Imran Khan...

1. He is not an "islamic type" at all. He looks like quite the gentleman, in fact.

2. He is seen as a hero since when Pakistan won the Cricket World Cup. He was the Captain of the team.

3. He built... and runs... a hospital that specializes in all kinds of cancer. He did it because his mother died of cancer.

4. He has now got rabies. Even his wife left him because she can't stand his yapping at the President of Pakistan and at the US and at the world. Oh, btw, he loves the UK. His wife was British too.

5. I voted this guy into Parliament. One of the most stupid things I've ever done. So sorry.

Did you know, the Taliban had a fantasy of Afghanistan taking over Pakistan... with all its nukes and missiles.... and calling the whole thing "USA"?

"United States of Afghanistan".

And then came the other "USA"... also known as "Amreeka".

No wonder they're pissed.

Al,

You're right. We shouldn't be as mad at NewsWeek for publishing a crap story as we should be at Muslim lunatics who riot and kill and maim in response.

HOWEVER, to use your parent analogy, these Muslim lunatics ARE like children. They are full of irrational emotions, and seemingly incapable of reason.

Therefore, NewsWeek's bogus story was akin to telling one billion children that the US just shit on Santa Claus, and laughed about it.

So, NewsWeek should have known what kind of reaction that would bring about.

A pox on both their houses...

Al, I know you're always trying to be fair and a 'play it down the middle' kinda guy, but let the "self-rightous smucks on the right" crow. For them it's mainly about the frustration of endless affirmations of liberal media bias.

How often really, is it, that counterfeit news reports are skewed pro American military or pro Bush?

You're right, of course, about any sincere feeling of lament about the dozen or so killed. No one cares about them. Nor should they.

No doubt, some Christian righters who are still miffed about the
'Christ in urine attack "art"', are feeling smug. Perhaps they await the 'dog turd atop Quran' masterpiece. Surely artistic expression must be tolerated.

No, Dan. "Piss Christ" was an artistic statement. "Poopy Koran" would be a hate crime.

Here's a story in the WaPo that says the Koran story has been told by various people over the past two years.

Here's one:

And numerous detainees, whose stories are uncorroborated, have said to various media outlets that at detention facilities in Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan, the Koran was stepped on, tossed on the floor and placed in latrines.

"They tore the Koran to pieces in front of us, threw it into the toilet," former detainee Aryat Vahitov told Russian television in June 2004.

In other words, Newsweek didn't break the story, and previous reports didn't spark deadly riots.

Newsweek should stop running scared and keep investigating the story. If it's true, it's true. If it's not, then it's the former detainees who are lying.

Similar to my point... well said. These stories about the Koran have been around for some time now. No rioting.

So why now?

1. Thank you Mr.Imran Khan. He likes reading Newsweek.

2. It came from an *American* magazine. Some people saw that as an admission of guilt, I suppose.

3. People sense the US is down. They sense they are tired. I would guess that this rioting was only a test. A test the US failed.

It might also interest you to know that Pakistan's largest selling english newspaper, DAWN (www.dawn.com), got terror threats from Pakistani *Christians* because they published a book review of "DaVinci Code".

Point is, some people like to behave like kids, no matter what their religion. Just like Americans can't help being insolent. Its in the genes.

Yep. B. HAS W. Again.
You know who your audience is when they can't acknowledge this MFink obvious point.

This was a 10-line Newsweek article and this "offending" item was 1/10th of that.

Thanks Temple. I call 'em like I see 'em.

Didn't anyone ever tell you, size doesn't matter? LOL

Nice post, Big Al. I'm with ya, mano.

re: Newsweek: no big deal.

re: Overly senstive Muslims: Fuck 'em.

re: Plumbing issues: I hear the Torah is a bitch to flush -- and that parts of the New Testament will clean your bowl spotless by just waving it over your commode. Miraculous!

re: Religious toilet paper:

* the Koran is really scratchy
* the Bible pages are really thin and tear easily
* the Torah has 'em ****both beat: IT COMES ON A ROLL!

****(once again, evidence of a world-wide Jewish conspiracy, no doubt)

And just to summarize Shark's other deep, related thoughts on this hideous, boring, tedious subject:

* (uh-hurmp, RJ) It wasn't a "bogus" story -- it had some 'element' of truth, and has been around since the early Gitmo days.

* Like they need another reason to hate western infidels.

* They have toilets and books at Gitmo? Then stop whining, ya big Islamic babies; that's more than we have in my local Texas public schools.


SHARK OUT!

PS: SHARK is not "Sharky" --

I agree. Sharky is not "Shark".

Man, if I had known there was a "Shark" around here, I would've taken a different name.

It's never too late to change, El Tiburon Amigo.


(And I'm not sure you want to mistakenly receive death threats intended for me.)

By the way, I can be reached at:

Shark
c/o Salman Rushdie
4 Whitehall Place
London England

Oh, you know Salman? Any friend of his is a friend of mine. Tell that "hijo de puta" I said hello. And to keep his head down... Iranians are still after him, LOL.

Here is the e-version with mp3s and all of the Koran - suitable for mash-ups, annotations,recycle-bin flushing,etc.

"Newsweek should stop running scared and keep investigating the story. If it's true, it's true. If it's not, then it's the former detainees who are lying."

Surely detainees would have no reason to be dishonest. After all, we let them keep their heads. Newsweek retracted the story because they couldn't substantiate it. They can investigate away if they like, but they should only report responsibly.

"No, Dan. "Piss Christ" was an artistic statement. "Poopy Koran" would be a hate crime."

Al, my proposed artistic statement is titled "Dog turd atop Quran" not "Poopy Koran". Please respect an artist's appelative rendering. While some who are unfamiliar with provocative art form may find it offensive, I see no reason to believe this genuine artistic expression rises to the level of "hate crime". (see "Piss Christ" for more detail)

While I agree that freedom of the press whould be used to call attention to events, shoddy, ill-considered, unconfirmed reporting like this is doing more to divide the American public from its military than anything we could do ourselves.

Why all Muslims are suspect:
1: ALL Muslims embrace the "Law of Shria"
2: The law of Shria is antithetical and hostile to the Constitution of the United States
3: As a veteran of the US military, I have taken an oath to "...Preserve,Protect and defend" the
Constitution of the United States.
4: Therefore Muslims represent a clear and present danger.