Interesting post. I think a lot of the 12 step groups and if they work for you depend on two things- who you are as an individual and the dynamics of the group. My mom is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. She goes to both AA and NA. I recently went to visit her to witness her picking up her 6 month chip. The meetings she has found are entirely different from your experiences. That is why she goes to those. She has gone to a few that sound exactly like what you described. But luckily she has found some smaller groups of real people out there who genuinely want to improve themselves and help others. None of the sharing time hoggers and such. They feel the freedom to share what is going on, what struggles they are facing and all respond to each other. And they are a pretty diverse crowd- in terms of race, age and religion.

But they all also understand that they need more than just those meetings and 12 steps.

So I dunno. I guess it depends on what you can find out there.

Great insight into the 12 step world. I've always been skeptical about the programs, but not having been in one I've reserved judgement. It's always seemed illogical to me to look for help and support to other people whose problems are as bad as or worse than your own.

Dave

I tried at least a dozen different meeting sites within my city, possibly twenty. The meeting where the drug deals went on was in another county and was in the country. The guy who drove me to it was a sober former drug addict who had been helped by the program, obviously. Then the meetings I've observed in the park make three more groups. I've observed about twenty-three or four meeting sites/groups of twelve step people over fifteen years time. It could be the nature of people here making them flakier and more self-absorbed than elsewhere. Twelve step groups do help some people keep sober, denying and there is that value of seeing others admit they are flawed and in pain, perhaps pain a lot like yours.

I'm not trying to say that there isn't good done by twelve step meetings. I'm glad your mother found help and more stable people to share with. The guy who started one of the meetings in the park here decades ago is sober today but unpleasant and overly emphatic and rigid. He's really uncomfortable to be around, but yes, he is sober. I just think there is more work to be done.

My comments above are directed at -E. There's a typo where I wrote "denying" when I meant to say, there's no denying that twelve step groups have helped some people get sober.

Oh I certainly think there is a lot more work people need to do than just get sober. And that is what my mom is getting with these other people that think there is more. She moved to Florida and found good groups. When she lived here in Austin- they were mostly as you describe.

I am not saying it will work for everyone though.

As a child of an alcoholic, you should have also gone to Al Anon group meetings. They are there for you as a group of people whose lives have been affected by alcohol. AA for for the alcoholics. When questioned one time at an open meeting, one recovering alcoholic said the reason they joke, is because they themselves find it difficult to come straight out and confront it. One person who was in AA came to Al Anon. WHen asked why, he said "He goes to AA for his drinking, while he comes to Al Anon for this "thinking." I thought that was just a good analysis of these two groups.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I did go to some Alanon meetings, but Alanon emphasizes how to cope with having an alchoholic in your life currently, which wasn't the case. Codependents Anonymous, Adult Children of Alchoholics, and combined Alcoholics Anonymous/ACA meetings ended up being the most appropriate meetings available to me. Regardless of the title, many attendees were both addicts and codependents or ACA's. The addict-survivors tended to be the Wild Ones I wrote about. They should have been separated out, with a trained leader to get past the bragging and into the stuff underneath it. It would take skill, trust, and an appropriate setting.

I slogged away at 12-steps for two years, then finally quit. I didn't get any better, and listening to their problems just made me anxious and down. I also went to some AA/Adult Children of Alc.s meetings, and to my surprise, not once did any of the AA/ACA leaders bring up the fact that for most addicts, the inability to ever handle alcohol has a chemical reason: normally alcohol breaks down into acetic acid + water. No problem. For alcoholics, alcohol ALWAYS breaks down into acetic acid + water + THIQ (tetrahydro-ioquinidine sp?) which is a brain chemical which produces addiction to whatever substance it is someone's particular DNA is sensitive to. All they ever did at the AA/ACA was harp on this 'higher power' mumbo-jumbo, never getting past the old 'it's your moral inability to control yourself' schtick. Yeah, the alcoholic is helpless - after all, who can (at this time, we may someday) control their brain chemistry? But to know it's a chemical fact and not a personal shortcoming seems to me a lot more helpful and positive as far as information goes. When I volunteered this bit of biochemical information, they didn't want to hear it; I guess they preferred to continue thinking it was a personal failure? I should think they'd present whatever anyone could grab onto for help as well as the higher power factor - and that's something else: they keep hammering on 'higher power' - but everyone there knows they really mean God, even tho they tiptoe all around the word. What foolishness. Additionally, I had someone come to me and 'apologise' for wrongs they'd done me. Well, this may have made HIM feel better, but it only made me mad all over again. I didn't care if it made him feel better, and I didn't care to listen to him yammer on about his contrition. If he wanted to confess, he should have gone to a priest. The 12-step groups encourage this, but they spend absolutely NO time at all considering how the victim to be apologized to will feel to have this garbage brought up again. I do wish I had made myself feel better by just hauling off and decking him, and THEN telling him, 'apology accepted'. I think that would have truly brought closure to it.

I don't have anything against ANY kind
of a support group that will help in a
positive way.I've several friends that
have seemingly (so far) made these AA
programs work for them.I've also lost a
couple of friends in the recent past to
substance abuse so I know how important
it is for some people to be able to put
forth their problems to others who may
understand.This is all for the good.

I have to agree with Cerulean that there
are many problems with the 12 step and
similar programs. Many people become as
addicted to meetings as they were to the
drugs and drinks. Switching one extreme
for another without addressing the real
problem underneath it all seems a waste
of time. My main problem with these 12
step programs is that they teach that
you and only you are to blame for your
problems(largely correct) but that only
a "higher power"can resolve these(wrong)
problems. Bullshit. This is just like
saying give yourself to God and he''ll
make it all right. They should put more
emphasis on rebuilding the individuals
self esteem,positive goals,forgiveness
of ones self (guilt is a KILLER)and many
other problems that are commonly seen in
people with substance problems. There is
an underlying sense of base Christianity
at the core of the 12 step program that
I find disconcerting,the "Higher Power"
concept & the use of The Lord's Prayer
mainly.Once again I can't knock anything
that may help someone get clean & sober.

But there are alternatives & other ways
to achieve this laudable goal.I've been
to AA meetings and have seen many of the
problems that the author speaks of and I
hope that any and all that want to get
clean can come to a happy resolve w/o AA
programs.

Good comments, Nancy and HW Saxton.

I had forgotten about the tacit Christianity, even the enforced belief in a diety. I believe in dieties personally but I don't want this forced on others, and I certainly don't want Christianity foisted on desperate people. At the same time, I recognize that discovering God has helped a lot of addicts. I think that overtly Christian or God stuff should be limited to Christian recovery groups.

It can be important for some addicts and survivors (moreso addicts) to have some kind of consideration of a higher power or "the universe," or their own limitations, or their own need for help and light from without. The words can be rewritten to be inclusive and as inoffensive as possibe. There will never be a perfect wording but they can do better.

Cerulean, thanks for your post, and its perfectly true. these things just don't work for some people. it worked for me though. it is working. and i never experienced any of the things you describe, except maybe for the long-winded types. heh. but as for the sharing in a roomful of folks who ain't listenin, for me anyhow, i don't give a fuck if they hear or not. half times i barely speak in sentences. but it makes sense to me, and maybe irons out stuff i couldn't get a handle on.

there's plenty folks who've done worse or not as bad things than me, but there's always something they've got goin on that i can identify with. i was told not to look for the contrasts. somethin along those lines.

certainly it was the only thing that DID work for me, when hospitals and doctors and family and friends were helpless. i owe it absoloutely everything i got, which might'nt look like much, but the peace in the head-space is worth a hell of a lot to me.

i was lucky enough to fall in with someone who did become a sponsor, and certianly one-on-one yacks are much more beneficial for me than roomfull's of listeners.

but as you said up there, your comin from an american perspective, so i dunno what it's like. i dunno what it's like 50 miles away, never mind america.

but anyway, thanks for the honesty, and im off for to watch somethin about werewolves.

Thanks for the post. I've always wondered about the 'making amends' part of it too. I finally came to the conclusion that they didn't see things the same way as I did. They are always the victim, so they couldn't see how they were victimizing others. I'm just talking about one specific person here, not making a general statement. But I think it may be a plausible explanation.

Thank you! I am an incest assult survivor/child of active addicts. Who harras me to this day to continue their inappropriateness. To put it lightly, if that is possible. I had someone make amens to me. I began to think and I realized all my bosses I picked all my boyfreinds except one were addicts. After years of therapy for the first my primary issues I went to al-anon for support. Honestly I found people without compassion for the victim, themeselves or others in the group. The focus was on interprting the abusive behavior no matter what or how wrong , of the addict in a non-personal manner. Another focus was in being of purpose to the addict. I went for support to hear people say yeah good for you! break ties with those addicts care for yourself finnaly. Care for people who treat you like a whole person. Care for people who you can work through problems with, who don't try to control your life in the most manipulative ways. But what I got was litterally from a pamphlet "Losing one's temper destroys the chance to help at that moment". Anger=taking it personally =putting up boundaries to abusive behavior=no al-anon till they creat one specialized for people who are dormats. So thank you I will find a good group with a well educated leader.

Most of us were quiet and could have shared more authentically away from these crazy women.

Hmm. I'm in an OA group, mostly for the fellowship. It is a guys only meeting, and it works best when we follow the formula. The only guy in it that people dislike fits the description you have of everyone in your 12 step experience.

Interesting. Makes me glad for the group I'm in.

I completely disagree with your arguement. Alcoholics need to take responsibility for their behavior. They have a tendency to feel victimized by their parents, or their environment. They may even blame their drinking on someone else, and use this as an excuse to drink. Alcoholics like to control people and use guilt in order to do so. No, no one is going to apologize to us including our alcoholic parents. So what. Alcoholics need a clear conscience in order not to drink. Their own behavior has screwed up enough people, they need to make amends with the people that they have harmed. That they can control