Blogcritics: Comments on Iraq Sees Coalition Troop Pull-Out by Mid-2006

Comment by Bennett

Sun, 15 May 2005 11:58:25 EDT

Yeah Shark, that's some of it for me. But my feelings are really patriotism on a local level. Didn't quite feel this way when I lived in Seattle or SF, as the system was too big for me to get a grip on. But out here in the countylands, my voice can make a noticable difference in town meetings, and at the various board meetings that I drop in on. It inspires a "patriotism of participation" in me that is very satisfying. I'm very much anti-chauvanism however, and feel that yelling USA USA USA at olympic sporting events is a manifestation of unacceptable ignorance, and a lack of class that inspires (deserved) anti-american feelings. We may be lucky to live where we live, but that doesn't mean that we're "better" than anyone else. Two cents worth.

Comment by Shark

Sun, 15 May 2005 11:31:25 EDT

RE. "...an overwhelming sense of patriotism..." I oppose Bush because I love my country.

Comment by Eric Berlin

Sat, 14 May 2005 21:53:26 EDT

The red state-blue state thing did occur to me when I heard the base closing story, but I failed to persue it because I did not hear that side of it come up in the few sources I heard it from. I do remember hearing something about the sub base moving to Georgia (I think) which definitely caused me to take pause. The closing of air force bases in Cold War strategic locations like the Dakotas makes more sense upon first appearance.

Comment by gonzo marx

Sat, 14 May 2005 21:22:35 EDT

on scandalous recruitment and dirty deal done to the folks serving.. no matter WHAT your contract with the government states, they can now keep you in indefinately just by issuing a "stop loss" order.. this clause is only supposed to be used in "national emergencies" or in case of active wartime... can we truly say the current Conflict is either? nope..not when the average citizen's sacrifice is a few dollars for a yellow ribbon magnet on their car and we give huge tax cuts while not providing body and humvee armor to EVERY one of our Troops in the field..much less the combat pay and benefits they SHOULD get in any "war" enviornment.. and now we are closing "blue state" bases and upping the work force in red state bases.. you know..like the submarine base in Groton Conneticut being moved to the midwest..Oklahoma if memory serves.. a lot of places to launch a sub there... Reuters link for the summary of the week in politics as well as the court ruling about the "stop loss" policy http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051400653.htm Excelsior!

Comment by Bennett

Sat, 14 May 2005 20:54:44 EDT

Heck, I have an overwhelming sense of patriotism. But the whole lead up to Iraq, and everything we've learned since, kinda took it off my radar as *defending America*. I can't imagine how it would feel to lose a son or daughter over there. What would you believe?

Comment by Eric Berlin

Sat, 14 May 2005 20:43:18 EDT

That being said, some people have an overwhelming sense of patriotism and they want to defend our country etc. etc. and I can dig that: it's their right. But the military literally conning people into service is not cool. And for all you Michael Moore bashers out there: Moore hit upon this subject with great restraint and great humor in F-9/11.

Comment by Eric Berlin

Sat, 14 May 2005 20:41:50 EDT

The 15-month "deal" certainly shows a level of desperation by the military. Hasn't the normal hitch typically been four years for new enlistees? And I agree, it's hard to believe that many parents would willingly allow a child that has "infantry" pre-stamped on thier forehead to sign up. I hope the story I mentioned gives some people a head's up to get everything in writing before signing. You're right: Wal Mart sounds better by a good piece to me. But that doesn't have much of a future in it...

Comment by Bennett

Sat, 14 May 2005 19:29:50 EDT

Shark - Thanks for the link to that post. Predated my arrival on the scene by a month, give or take. That was a fine job of reflecting on the *progress* in Iraq. Loved the "stuffed socks into his flight suit" line. Six months later, nothing has changed except the daily body count.

Comment by Bennett

Sat, 14 May 2005 19:07:41 EDT

Eric - How could ANY parent allow their child to sign up at this point? If the potential fodder is well into their 20's and away from mom and dad's influence, does the military really want someone who's dumb enough to buy the "15 months and you're out" line of crap? Perhaps there'll be a sudden surge in patriotism, and the idea of being blown to bits by a roadside bomb will bring thoughts of red white and blue to mind... I dunno.. If we could only convince the young people of our country that if they die in battle they get the same number of virgins that muslim martyrs receive? Not such a great deal for the female soldiers however. Even a job at WallMart sounds better than Iraq right now. I second your feelings re:gonzo. But he does fine by piping up in the ongoing posts.

Comment by Shark

Sat, 14 May 2005 18:56:49 EDT

That army enlistment story (google Colorado/army recruiter) is fantastic news for us liberal America-haters; a high school journalism student exposes Satan's underbelly. ahahahahaha. re: Viet...um, I mean IRAQ as Ongoing Disaster Y'know what else is amazing? That this shit has gone on for so long. [shameless plug warning!] Just to demonstrate, here's a couple of my 'golden oldies' from the semi-distant past -- Oh, and... guess what... ~NOTHING HAS CHANGED. My new Army Enlistment ad My ancient take on the "good news" from Iraq Note: this also contains a classic exchange from the late-great Jim Carruthers -- one of the last, I believe.

Comment by Eric Berlin

Sat, 14 May 2005 16:49:29 EDT

Bennett -- There's a story floating around -- I saw it on Hardball and heard it on Al Franken's radio show -- about recruiters lying their asses off to get young people to enlist: bonuses, education, choice of assignment, guarantees that the posting will be domestic, and so on. But nothing's in writing. As soon as the kid signs -- boom! they're in the Army (or whatever) Now for X years. Not cool...

Comment by gonzo marx

Sat, 14 May 2005 16:47:03 EDT

added to that the Army recruitment goal was low by 42% seems like the bottom of the barrel scraping is about finished but who can blame the young folks on this one..it's not like this Conflict is about America, or defending your Nation against an Agressor as has been shown countless times, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and as far as i am aware there has never been an Iraqi terrorist that has killed any Americans BEFORE we invaded their sovereign Nation.. don't get me wrong..i do think Saddam was scum and deserved to be taken out.. but , silly person that i am..i think it should have been an Iraqi/Kurd revolt that did it, since we decided not to in '92 for the first War... /end twaddle Excelsior!

Comment by Eric Berlin

Sat, 14 May 2005 16:43:54 EDT

Bennett -- That's yet another story I was trying to get to for BC! Gonzo -- I thought you were vibing Burgess a few comments back with your Bog comment. Your last one proved me out, right? I think you should definitely get a blog going and then contribute regularly to BC. I use Blogger -- www.blogger.com -- it's free and super easy. Your voice is wanted and needed here.

Comment by Bennett

Sat, 14 May 2005 16:41:08 EDT

Body Count 400 this week. But only a few dozen were Americans. If this is getting better... BTW The military announced a *new* enlistment plan where you only spend 15 months on active duty (Iraq), and then a few years in the National Guard (Iraq). Whoa, sign me up.

Comment by gonzo marx

Sat, 14 May 2005 16:38:45 EDT

makes a lot of sense Eric... given the choice your humble Narrator will remain a wolf, not a sheep.. mebbe i should just give in and start my own Blog rather than remaining the Interlocutor on the other side of Socrates' log... who knows? but yes..this stuff IS important..notice how many pro-Conflict folks fell silent once things took the current bloody turn? but again, my ONLY Wish here is that our Troops make it home safely...my desire is that the Iraqi's find their own Peace so much for "no Nation building", eh? Excelsior!

Comment by Eric Berlin

Sat, 14 May 2005 16:31:24 EDT

Gonzo - I was going to do a story on an explosion that killed 14 people (though no Americans, I believe) and do a another day, another explosion, same old same old story, but found I just didn't have the energy. It's important to keep talking though, even if there's not much to be done about it at present. People are dying every day, which means it was an important story and remains an important story. I hope things are getting better, I really do. It's easy to want to glaze over at the violence, though, and close your eyes and believe the Optimists. I don't want to become one of the sheeps, one of the robots. Make any sense?

Comment by gonzo marx

Sat, 14 May 2005 16:12:45 EDT

i'm almost sorry to dredge this one up..but i cant' seem to find any of the other Threads that have comments trying to stipulate that things are getting better in the Iraq conflict.. here's today's bit from Reuters.. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=8492592 another Iraq Minister kiled by insurgent guerrillas, some more of our troops killed...but according to the DoD we did get at least 125 Iraqi's killed by our forces...we do have their word for it that those folks were real military targets... just me being cynical there, too many tales from my sifu about 'Nam where anyone killed, even by collateral damage was immediately counted as the "enemy"...this included women, children, SVA regulars and sometimes oxen... please Bog, may this be over soon..may our Troops return home safely..may the Iraqi people find their Way in the world and may those Responsible for all the fuck ups get the Punishment they deserve..on BOTH sides of the Conflict... nuff said? Excelsior!

Comment by Eric Berlin

Thu, 5 May 2005 17:47:19 EDT

Dave - I hear what you're saying (not that I agree) but my statement still stands with relation to anyone and everyone who holds a different opinion than you... on just about anything.

Comment by Shark

Thu, 5 May 2005 17:36:06 EDT

Dave: "How about, when you have something new to say, you make your own thread so we can all just ignore it..." I'll do it if you do. Dave: "He never stops to make a reasonable argument or engage in a two way discussion." I'm not here to 'debate' you, Dave, and I don't aspire to change your opinions with engagementanymore than I long to change the diaper of a chimp with diarrhea. Dave: "He just flings insults and runs." I never run, Dave.

Comment by Dave Nalle

Thu, 5 May 2005 17:13:17 EDT

Eric, I couldn't care less what people like Shark think about me. His infantile carrying on is one of the main problems with blogcritics. He never stops to make a reasonable argument or engage in a two way discussion. He just flings insults and runs. If he's got a point that's worth anything he ought to be able to discuss it. Dave

Comment by Eric Berlin

Thu, 5 May 2005 10:09:23 EDT

Nick brings up a great point -- BlogCritics is a democracy: messy and wonderful and the "worst form of [communication], except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." Shark -- Thank you for specifically mentioning the bios of the U.S. soldiers killed over the last few days. I know for me at least it's easy to glaze over at numbers and bombs and explosions. Reading about a specific person from a specific place in the U.S. with family, etc. makes one take pause. Dave -- Your assumption that your opinions are worth more than others gets you into trouble time and again. I might also add that it likely lessens the respect that others might hold for your opinions. / lecture

Comment by nick

Thu, 5 May 2005 10:07:26 EDT

Well I suppose we all do the same. We all choose to emphasise the facts that fit our opinions. You and I know that none of us is objective.

Comment by Dave Nalle

Thu, 5 May 2005 09:57:09 EDT

Actually, Nick. His opinions ARE worth less than mine, because his choice of facts is tailored to fit his opinions, while my opinions are derived from the facts on the issue. Dave

Comment by nick

Thu, 5 May 2005 09:53:03 EDT

Don't be nasty Dave. His opinions are not worth any less than yours. That is the beauty of democracy. May I remind you that it is now the only excuse your governmant is left with regarding the war. If you are not going to set the example, who on Earth is ?

Comment by Dave Nalle

Thu, 5 May 2005 09:47:44 EDT

Shark, why is it necessary to bombard two separate threads with what is essentially the same posting? How about, when you have something new to say, you make your own thread so we can all just ignore it. Dave