I believe the Christian right is the biggest danger America is facing today. I do not fear the Taliban, for they are not in my backyard and making decisions for me.

Neo-con Lou Dobbs? He's clearly a paleo-con.

I believe anyone against the minute men should leave our country and go to Mexico to live. It seems that those of you who disapprove of the Minute Men would like the US to become Mexico. We fought that war once. As far as the Schiavo Case I think it was a run away judicial system. I love Sean Hannity and believe he is trying to get to the truth.
We have too many illegals here and need to put a stop to it. They are being kept with my tax money also. I have a friend who lives in the carolinas and says they can get drivers licence there and don't need insurance. This means if they have an accident and no insurance the government pays and that means I pay. This is crap. I am tired of paying for the illegals. This is the US and we should be promoting us and not illegals.

Sandy, I do not support illegals coming into this country and us doing nothing about it. The answer that you and the MinuteMen prefer, cold-blooded murder, I cannot support either.

Where have the Minutemen advance murder as part of their agenda?

SFC SKI, the Minutemen do not publicly endorse murder, of course.

I know that the post is long, but I have provided ample evidence, and if you care to look, there is plenty more evidence out there, that the agenda that the MinuteMen promote on the airwaves is not the same as what the MinuteMen are doing on the border.

It's in the post, SFC SKI.

Interesting article, and only a few problems that I have to bring attention to.

First, you assume that President Bush is party to the religious lunacy you document so well. This is by no means accurate. If you look at the judicial appointees whose filibustering you're so proud of, many of them are surprisingly moderate and only a couple seem to be religiously extreme by any definition. Bush's actions in other areas also argue very strongly that he is not a social conservative. He placates them well, but when it comes to delivering on their issues he does zip for them.

Yes, there are religious extremists and some hold public office, but they have by no means come to dominate the Republican party even if they are very outspoken. In fact, their current rather loud tactics suggest that they are trying to push an advantage that they think might be fading away as traditional Republican values reassert themselves. They need to score their points while they can before the inevitable backlash.

You also completely overlook the equally extreme elements in the Democratic party. They are as crazed, as dangerous and as troubling as anything on the right. One of the reason why the right wing extremists have become so successful is that the extremism of the left has driven moderates - who are the majority of the population - to choose, and many of them have reluctantly been willing to accept the excesses of the right when faced with the alternative excesses of the left.

Personally I'd prefer to see someone articulate a comprehensible moderate political philosophy, build a party around it and send the extremists to the fringes where they belong.

BTW, Lou Dobbs is a protectionist quasi-socialist, not a conservative.

Dave

First, you assume that President Bush is party to the religious lunacy you document so well.

Where do I do that, Dave? I pointed out that Bush called the MinuteMen vigilantes. Even he doesn't support what they and people like Sandy do.

You also completely overlook the equally extreme elements in the Democratic party.

Dave, when I talk about one party running amok, I cannot cover every party under the sun. There are extreme elements in the Democratic party, they have nothing to do with the religious terrorism that some of us are going through.

If a bank robber is going to point a gun at you, do you also reflect on the badness of the pimp?

Dear Steve S.(whoever you are)

There you go again. Accusing the Right of being civic terrotrists when in fact the is what you are. You say the Christians are intollerant when it is you who are intollerant. If you are allowed to have your agenda, then why can't Christians have their agenda? Besides some of these people you describe are not real Christians any more than Hitler was a Christian. Real Christians don't preach hate or insurrection. Those people who do are Libertarians or Bolsheviks not Christian conservatives. You really should try and find a school or college that teaches the different spectrums of America's political life and comparative religion so you could know what you are talking about.

You are as radical as those you accuse only you are so smart that you think you know everything. That makes you one of the most dangerous people in the country, because you don't know what you don't know. You are the other half of OXY-...., and I pity you. You just don't get it. You want to return to the wild west where the biggest and fastest guns (in your case, the biggest maouth with the smallest mind) were the boss.

What am I missing here? Who the heck is Steve S.

You say the Christians are intollerant when it is you who are intollerant

In addition to your lack of spelling ability, you apparently cannot read either.

I provided quotes FROM the Christian extremists who say they are intolerant. I don't say it, they do themselves.

If you are allowed to have your agenda, then why can't Christians have their agenda?

This post is about extremism. This post is not about mom and pop Christian, beyond the fact that they are sitting on their ass, letting terrorism occur under the banner of their religion.

You want to return to the wild west where the biggest and fastest guns

Clearly you did not read the post. Apparently nobody commenting really has. I am not a MinuteMan, I do not support using guns in this case. Detaining illegals is one thing, but as I have pointed out, that is not all that is happening.

Who the heck is Steve S.

A law abiding voter exercising my freedom of speech, got a problem with that?

Wow. I mean, WOW. I thought Dave Nalle was sort of a lone anachronism, howling in the wilderness against those durn Commie Pinko Socialists. Now I see others on the Right see things the same way - the only difference is that Dave can spell.

Where are all these alleged "socialists"? Because of where I live and what I do for a living, probably at least 90% my friends and co-workers are liberals, and I don't think I know a single socialist. Oh, wait - they must be hiding their secret identities, waiting to come out on a signal from their alien overlords. Could it be... the guy working in the next office? Omigosh. I'm terrified.

What should be more telling to us all, Jon, is how many people from the Right, you will see on threads, who when confronted with evidence of their lawlessness and vigilantism, will attack YOU for providing the evidence.

George, there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support, but the one thing on which he's dead right is that radical Christians are intolerant. God told them they're right, therefore anyone who disagrees with them is not just wrong, but outright evil.

>>Where do I do that, Dave? I pointed out that Bush called the MinuteMen vigilantes. Even he doesn't support what they and people like Sandy do.<<

I came to this conclusion not because of the minutemen issue, but because of the filibustering issue. You seem to think that the filibustering is going on to stop religiously extreme judges from getting into office - which suggests that Bush made appointments of that nature. But the fact is that Bush's judicial nominees are mostly pretty moderate - several of those being blocked are even former Clinton appointees.

>>Dave, when I talk about one party running amok, I cannot cover every party under the sun. There are extreme elements in the Democratic party, they have nothing to do with the religious terrorism that some of us are going through.<<

Actually, I think the two have to be looked at together, though I understand why you didn't do it in this piece. As I see it they're two sides of the same coin. For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported as the Christian issues of the exttreme right. The issues are different, but the evangelic personality type is the same.

Dave

there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support

such as? I documented everything.

You seem to think that the filibustering is going on to stop religiously extreme judges from getting into office - which suggests that Bush made appointments of that nature.

Dave, I don't understand what is going on here. Has everybody lost the ability to reason? Nobody seems to comprehend what I am saying. There is no way to say it clearer. In the filibuster paragraph, I said 'by Frists's reasoning'. I am not Frist.

Does nobody read anymore? Is it because it's not a 30 second MTV clip?

For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported

Dave, you always want to water criticism of the Right with criticism of the Left. I understand fair and balanced and all that, but we are talking about vigilantism, and extremism. I am talking here and now on the border. There are no leftists down there burning down SUV dealerships at the moment. There are lives being lost in the desert though. I prefer to focus on the crisis at hand.

link

>>there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support

such as? I documented everything.<<

Sure, you documented one white supremacist of 500 people on the border, so they're all white supremacists. You bring up crazy statements and activities by a couple of nuts like Pat Boone and Bo Gritz (ferchrissakes) and they become representative of everyone else. Taking a few extreme examples and making them the poster children for the entire right wing is what I call reaching.

>>Dave, I don't understand what is going on here. Has everybody lost the ability to reason? Nobody seems to comprehend what I am saying. There is no way to say it clearer. In the filibuster paragraph, I said 'by Frists's reasoning'. I am not Frist.<<

No, but you're the one who ascribes that reasoning to Frist and the one who concludes that his reasoning is incorrect. You're not quoting Frist, you're interpreting him.

>>Dave, you always want to water criticism of the Right with criticism of the Left. I understand fair and balanced and all that, but we are talking about vigilantism, and extremism. I am talking here and now on the border. There are no leftists down there burning down SUV dealerships at the moment. There are lives being lost in the desert though. I prefer to focus on the crisis at hand.<<

If lives are being lost we should certainly be concerned. I'm not convinced that it's happening though. The article you cite has an off-hand reference to a 'standoff' where people were killed. But as far as I can tell from various media sources no one has been reported dead and no one has been arrested. Your whole take on the minuteman thing is extreme. While there are some obvious blemishes, what they are doing has a valid point and seems to be achieving something. Some of those involved may be nuts and some may be idiots, but the overall results so far have not been negative. It's just like the WMD thing. Just because there were no WMDs you write off the whole war in Iraq and ignore all the other benefits. Because the minutemen aren't perfect paragons of virtue you write off the whole project. This fits right in with my comment recently on another thread about the relentless negativism of the left.

Dave

You bring up crazy statements and activities by a couple of nuts like Pat Boone and Bo Gritz (ferchrissakes) and they become representative of everyone else.

Dave, the whole premise of the Schiavo section was to illustrate that it is not ME who is making the ideological fringe be representative of the Christian religion, it is evidenced in the links I provided that the mainstream media is treating these people as the spokesmen of the conservative Right. I have provided evidence of that. You are laying the blame on the messenger.

No, but you're the one who ascribes that reasoning to Frist and the one who concludes that his reasoning is incorrect. You're not quoting Frist, you're interpreting him.

I ascribe that Frist is portraying the filibusters as an attack on Christianity? YES, I certainly do! Finally something gotten right. I got my evidence for that from the subtitle of the show: Stop the Filibuster of People of Faith.

By my logic, that is portraying the filibustering as being an attack on Christianity, which I point out. I guess by your logic, you come to a different conclusion.

If lives are being lost we should certainly be concerned. I'm not convinced that it's happening though.

I posted evidence from a freeper on a right wing site where he brags about destroying the hidden caches of food in the desert. And I posted an article that pointed out that the Border Patrol thinks that the Minutemen are putting the Border Patrol at risk. Just dismiss the whole thing though because it doesn't fit in with your ideology. As for evidence of an undocumented alien with no record in an American database being reported as killed, you really are naive. Come out here to California and see how things really work. Do you know how many miles of border, how many miles of desert there are?

Just because there were no WMDs you write off the whole war in Iraq and ignore all the other benefits.

You have me confused with someone else.

I went back and reread the pertinent points, I don't see how I missed it in the first place. The possible ties to supremaacists and the Minutemen is a good thing to be aware of, as of yet however, I haven't heard of Minutmen being involved in murders of illegal immigrants. Still, it is a good point.
I would like to see the extreme religionists have less infuluence in lawmaking. It seems to me that today only the extremist of any side are succesfully dominating either party.

Here is a story from the Arizona Central, about a man who is charged with 7 counts of assault with a deadly weapon.

Mexican gangs declare war on Minutemen

see reference in earlier post about MinuteMen getting ready to step up aggressive behavior too.

Since the AP can't find a body, Dave, beyond those which people come across in the desert all the time, we can conclude that things are just fine out here.

I'm not trying to set immigration policy here, this is about an undercurrent in this country, of a perception of Christians being attacked from all sides, perpetuated by the media and things have long past simmering and are reaching a boiling point. This isn't about furthering my agenda, this is about saving lives in the culture war. I haven't promoted any pro- or anti-immigration policy here.

And it's not so much about immigration as it is about the perception of Christians that the world is out to get them. We're now paying the price for that falsehood in many ways.

Here is a story in the Tucson Weekly about how the MinuteMen manipulate the media. So when you dismiss the fact that nothing is happening because the media isn't reporting it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

From the Tucson Citizen:

The Border Patrol has tried to reduce deaths by clamping down on the area with its Arizona Border Control Initiative, which was recently renewed for a second year. The aim is to channel immigrants into less deadly terrain. At the same time, the volunteer Minuteman Project, which had been patrolling eastern Arizona's border in Cochise County, seems to be directing more immigrants back into the western desert.
---

You won't hear about them dying, because they won't end up in the morgue, Dave. Local news is always a better source of info than cable news, unless you want to hear about Michael Jackson.

Again, from the Tucson Citizen, a report on how Mexican tourists spend 1 billion a year in Arizona, but how the shops there are suffering because people are now afraid to visit our country legally.

I am for immigration reform and a decrease in illegal immigrants, but not through vigilantism. There is never anything good to come from that. I am suprised that you guys are not against this sort of behavior, and I'm surprised that you all do not see negative consequences from the years of mainstream Christians being told over an d over again that everything on the planet is an assault on their faith.

Huh? Mob rules? How about ignorant mob of uninformed, biased, ignoroids who have been heavily influenced by the mainstream propaganda press that doesn't even bother to do responsible investigative journalism anymore. Yeah the mob does rule and you are part of the mob apparently.

http://tekgnosis.typepad.com

Well, Juan, you are accusing me of being heavily influenced by mainstream propaganda press, but if you read the post, you would see that I am critical of the mainstream media and how it has turned from true journalism to mislead instead. I am not influenced by them, but if you read that, you would know that.

So perhaps they have all given up on investigative journalism because apparently all the readers have given up on reading.

Well said Steve, I hardly read mainstream news anymore; outsideo f the headlines it rarely informs, and is seldom objective.

Steve it does nothing for your credability when you post a link that's two weeks old (man who is charged with 7 counts of assault) and the man has since been cleared of all charges.

In addition your link (Mexican gangs declare war on Minutemen) leads to an entirely different story, here is the first para:

SAN BERNARDINO--Gangs have declared war on San Bernardino and Colton police officers and put them on hit lists in retaliation for the recent shooting deaths of two men by officers, police said.

and it's 7 months old.

Lets assume the gangs have declared war on the minutemen. Why would that be? Maybe because they fear a few of their breatheren would be stopped or delayed coming across the border?

Or given their "stock in trade" the gangs are probably pissed because vulnerable targets for their thieving ways are being stopped or re-directed to other areas.

So what's your point?

>>I posted evidence from a freeper on a right wing site where he brags about destroying the hidden caches of food in the desert. <<

Last I checked that food was on private property and if the minutemen have permission from the owners to be on that land and destroy that food, then they are doing no wrong. If the food is there for illegals crossing the border it is part of a criminal activity and destroying it is merely detering crime.

>>And I posted an article that pointed out that the Border Patrol thinks that the Minutemen are putting the Border Patrol at risk. <<

Strange how all the comments from the border patrol we see in the news are supportive of the minutemen. And isn't it their job to take the risks necessary to apprehend illegals?

>>Just dismiss the whole thing though because it doesn't fit in with your ideology.<<

Not sure this topic even relates to my ideology in any meaningful way. I'm for relatively open borders and a guest worker program.

>> As for evidence of an undocumented alien with no record in an American database being reported as killed, you really are naive. Come out here to California and see how things really work. Do you know how many miles of border, how many miles of desert there are?<<

No naivete on that issue here. For the last 50 years the landowners on the border have just been shooting illegals and dumping their bodies in unmarked graves - or at least this has been known to happen - so I'm not surprised if it happens again.

What you're missing in all this is that the minutemen are trying to prevent an acknowledged crime and doing so in a generally non-violent manner.

Dave

So, mexicans illegally cross our borders into our country and that's ok.

Some americans illegally aid and abet those same illegal aliens that are crossing into our borders by placing food and water in strategic locations and that's ok too.

But stopping two very illegal activities by assisting an understaffed border patrol isn't?

Just trying to get the facts straight here...

and why shouldn't the presidents nominees for any position at least get a vote? This fillibustering thing is so much bull shit! A senator gets to stand up on the floor of congress and read the Washington, D.C. phone book into the record just to avoid a vote? If these nominees are so bad then there shouldn't be a problem getting the nay votes needed to make sure they don't get the position they were nominated for in the first place!

From what I've read on the nominees a couple of them are pretty bad and would probably get voted down. I don't understand why those ones are being filibustered. Of the others there are a couple who will probably get votes from Democrats - they were Clinton appointees to their current positions and aren't religiously extreme. This is what makes the whole filibustering business seem so capricious. They seem to have just chosen their targets at random which suggests tha the filibustering is happening not so much to block these specific appointees, but merely as an exercise of power to essentially stick it to an administration they don't like. That kind of behavior -when it's this transparent - really makes the Democrats look bad.

Dave

Steve it does nothing for your credability when you post a link that's two weeks old (man who is charged with 7 counts of assault) and the man has since been cleared of all charges.

I'm glad he's cleared of charges. Why is it uncredible that it happened 14 days ago and not last night?

Lets assume the gangs have declared war on the minutemen. Why would that be? Maybe because they fear a few of their breatheren would be stopped or delayed coming across the border?

Yes, most likely. And because if you are here on the border, you would have seen skinheads with shotguns running all over the hills, it's not a good situation.

So what's your point?

The whole point of the post is a rise in vigilantism.

Last I checked that food was on private property and if the minutemen have permission from the owners to be on that land and destroy that food, then they are doing no wrong. If the food is there for illegals crossing the border it is part of a criminal activity and destroying it is merely detering crime.

I'm absolutely shocked Dave. I said I am for immigration reform and for detering illegals, but you know that such activity puts men, women AND children at risk. I am completely amazed that you condone such activity and look at you differently now.

Strange how all the comments from the border patrol we see in the news are supportive of the minutemen

Strange how I have posted two news sources (local) that are entirely about how the MinuteMen manipulate the media, and strange how the Right selectively dismisses that info.

So, mexicans illegally cross our borders into our country and that's ok.

No, Andy, I have said at least 5 times on this thread that I am for immigration reform and against illegals coming into this country. More selective reading from the Right.

I am now utterly convinced that the animosity and paranoia from the Christian Right, which, as I have amply evidenced is resulting in dangerous situations on our borders, to the causing of the evacuation of minorities from colleges for their safety, all caused by elements of Christian extremism, AND the safety and integrity of our judges being under attack and requiring protection 24/7, is all okay with the moderate Right. For you all have clearly indicated so to me.

It is clear the moderate Right supports the activity of extremists. One only has to read this thread to see so.

Steve,

you mentioned 'nobody read the entire post'. Dude, it was insanely long. Take a look around at the posts, we work in quick jutted thoughts.

Steve - those people you talk about being at risk are at risk BECAUSE THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!! If they LEGALLY immigrated into this country they wouldn't need those supplies out in the middle of the desert!

This is like the store owner who got charged because he electrified a vent opening in his store and a thief was shocked to death while attempting to break into his store! I guess if I shoot someone that enters my house illegally I'm at fault? Or if I detain them until the authorities arrive I'm extreme? It's the same fucking thing!

Why is it that you call the minute men extreme, but not the people crossing miles of uninhabited desolate land to illegally enter a country with relatively open borders extreme? I'd say that's pretty extreme!

I understand, anon. The premise of the post is about how the propaganda machine of the Right puts out the concept that Christianity is under attack 24/7. The end consequence of this, is that it emboldens extremists into action.

Whether it is activists who are stalking our judges or activists who want to kill dark skinned folks on the border, or activists who want to target minorites on campus, etc. There is a rise in extremist activity, which is fueled by the conservative propaganda machine and is also fueled by the Republicans presenting their agenda under the guise of Christianity being attacked, there's no way to present all that evidence in a sentence.

What does it matter at this point? The mainstream conservative movement clearly supports extremists acting under their banner.

Andy, yes, I agree that illegals risking their lives to cross the border for a chance at opportunity is extreme. I do not think vigilantism is the answer.

It's only extreme if Steve doesn't agree wit hit!

No, Andy, it's extreme when people's lives are at risk.

Hate crimes against gay people on the rise

Note that link is not for you, Andy or Dave. It's for people who are concerned about human life.

So, because I disagree wit hyou means I have no concern for human life? Go fuck yourself you self serving condescending asshole!

No, andy, it's not because you disagree with me, it is because you are okay with the endangerment of illegals crossing this border.

I am AGAINST illegals coming into this country. I do not support behavior that puts human life at risk. Your comments indicate you do. That is how I arrive at my conclusion, it's not because you disagree with me.

Steve says - I do not support behavior that puts human life at risk.

Well, illegally crossing the border over the desert puts lives at risk! Doesn't it? Just because someone puts out water, doesn't make it any easier, they still have to find it! Ever been in Phoenix in August? Ever been in Yuma in August? Ever been in Tuscon in August? And those are the towns! Try Imperial Sand Dunes in August!

You go out in the desert in the middle of the summer you better be carrying your body weight in water and these people carry nothing, they put themselves at risk!

Ever driven I-8 and seen the illegals coming running out on the highway? Ever been to the Tijuana border crossing and seen the waves of illegals charging the crossing? Ever seen a truck pulled over at the crossing 30 miles north of SD and seen loads of illegals being led out of the back of an 18 wheeler? This all puts lives at risk. If those illegals that were bottled up in the mountains turned around and went home then there'd be no issue, but because they're dumb enough to try to wait out the folks with all the supplies, that makes the people that are prepared and watching for the CRIMINALS on the borders the bad guys?

You say you're against it, but you don't want to do anything about it!

regarding comment 29, from Dave:

which suggests tha the filibustering is happening not so much to block these specific appointees, but merely as an exercise of power to essentially stick it to an administration they don't like. That kind of behavior -when it's this transparent - really makes the Democrats look bad.

The Democrats are doing exactly what Republicans have done in the past. The only difference is that Republicans don't like the tables turned on them.

(for those who don't like to read more than two sentences - Cliff notes version - republicans are criticizing democrats for using republican strategies).

But mommy, he did it to me first!!!

Well, illegally crossing the border over the desert puts lives at risk! Doesn't it?

Yes, andy, people crossing the border is wrong. I do not condone it. Removing their food and water is not a good answer.

You say you're against it, but you don't want to do anything about it!

No andy, I have said I am for immigration reform and that I don't want illegals crossing the border. I have now had to say that no less than 6 or 7 times. That would indicate that I do not support doing nothing.

an eye for an eye.

Even President Bush is on my side on this one. He calls the Minutemen vigilantes and does not support civilian activity in this manner.

It's clear the conservative AND conservative extremists are now at the point where getting their ideology in place is so important that they do not care if people die as a consequence. If this is not advancing to the next stage in a culture war, I don't know what is.

yet another example of the conservative Republican movement aligning itself with members of the Aryan Nation, openly and with complete endorsement of the republican conservative movement.

Note also, that not only is Frist involved, but you have Dobson, considered a legitimate speaker of the Right, comparing the Supreme Court to the Klu Klux Klan.

(ironic that the Republican party, as has been amply documented on this blog, is walking arm in arm with KKK members).

>>I understand, anon. The premise of the post is about how the propaganda machine of the Right puts out the concept that Christianity is under attack 24/7.<<

BTW, Steve. Christianity IS under attack 24/7. Not that I care. I think it should be and I do my fair share of attacking.

>>yet another example of the conservative Republican movement aligning itself with members of the Aryan Nation, openly and with complete endorsement of the republican conservative movement.<<

Yet it is these same Aryans who are even more rabidly anti-Bush than you are, Steve. Check out infowars.com sometime. The fact is that the Aryans hold every kind of extreme views, and you can find something on which they agree with almost any special interest group. Hell, they agree with Jesse Jackson and many other black Democrats on the idea that jews were secretly behind the events of 9/11. Does that make them allies of the Democrats?

Dave

even more rabidly anti-Bush than you are, Steve

again, Dave, you have me confused with someone else.

Hell, they agree with Jesse Jackson and many other black Democrats on the idea that jews were secretly behind the events of 9/11. Does that make them allies of the Democrats?

If they stood side by side with Jesse, and if Jesse accepted them as a spokesperson, and if their ideological alliance was made public and openly and if they worked together, then I would say yes, they would be allies.

But Jesse and the Democrats aren't doing that.

Like the mythical phoenix mac diva rises from the ashes!!! I was wondering when you'd get around to calling everyone that disagrees with you a racist!

All of a sudden Steve isn't anti-Bush??? When did this epiphany happen???

your link in comment 45 doesn't work.

Steve - I didn't say that illegally crossing the border was wrong, although it is, I said it puts lives at risk. You said you don't support actions that put lives at risk, well, neither do the minutemen!

I was wondering when you'd get around to calling everyone that disagrees with you a racist!

please point out where I called anyone, let alone anyone who disagrees with me, a racist.

It is apparent, that the Right has lost the ability to comprehend and read.

As for the link:
http://blogcritics.org/mt/mt-comments.php?mode=red&u=http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml
%3Fi=20050509&s=blumenthal

The link in comment 15 doesn't work either. This is why I print out the urls (comment 15 url was deleted). It happens whenever there is a question mark in the URl. Unfortunately, they get changed back into links but still don't work.

I am against many Bush policies. The majority of my beef has always been the conservative right's unholy alliance with religion. Anybody who has read me on this site for over a year now, knows that my beef is separation of church and state.

At no time in this thread, have I even attacked Bush. I am on the same side as Bush here.

Yes, andy, I don't support putting lives at risk. I do want to find a way to stop illegal immigration. I have provided documented evidence, in the original blog, which I am sure you did not click on, that links to comments MADE BY MINUTEMEN, who reveal how they are jeopardizing lives on the border.

please point out where I called anyone, let alone anyone who disagrees with me, a racist.

I mean anyone here, andy. Yes, I'm calling the members of the Aryan nation racist, and I'm pointing out your sides unholy alliance, now conducted openly and without secrecy with them. That is not calling you a racist.

Steve..I enjoyed your article very much and I hope you will continue to write and expose the danger to this country that the right wing religious fanatics are...I too am a strong advocate for separation of church and state especially in these dangerous times when these demented fools think they know what God wants for this country..
Dave...Could you elaborate on this statement .....>>>>>As I see it they're two sides of the same coin. For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported as the Christian issues of the extreme right. The issues are different, but the evangelic personality type is the same.
I am not looking for a fight here Dave I am just interested to know how we Liberals can be compared to the right wing fanatics...I also would like you to articulate some day what a Moderate should be..Thank you...

Georgio: "I am not looking for a fight here Dave I am just interested to know how we Liberals can be compared to the right wing fanatics...I also would like you to articulate some day what a Moderate should be"

The way I see it irrational fanatics are irrational fanatics, whether their guiding principle is christianity, socialism, racism, homosexuality or whatever. They are characterized by hatred of a perceived enemy, be it george w. bush, bill clinton, christians or people with alternative lifestyles. They hold an absolute belief that they are right and that no other belief system can possibly be right, and they are unwilling to compromise in any way on any of their core issues.

Moderates would pretty much be the opposite. Moderation is based on reason, pragmatism and compromise. Moderates don't see the world in black and white and while they believe that some policies and choices are better than others, they are willing to make reasonable compromises in order to achieve some progress towards desirable goals. They don't expect instant change or any kind of absolutist ideological solution. If something works they embrace it, whether it comes from the right or the left. This, of course, puts them in the position of often being torn between the two extremes, or having to pick one to ally with despite being uncomfortable with the fanatics they end up siding with.

Dave

so, saying someone is walking arm in arm with the aryan nation isn't suggesting that they're racist? It's just convenient for you to lump them together?

.... and they are unwilling to compromise in any way on any of their core issues

Thanks Dave..I am going to think about your comment and thanks for your reply..

so, saying someone is walking arm in arm with the aryan nation isn't suggesting that they're racist? It's just convenient for you to lump them together?

Andy, I will give this one last shot, just for you, then I am done explaining what is already before you. I hate to sound so condescending, but this entry has been also posted in two other places, with no comprehension problems. You all get it, but you want the message to not get out there.

There is a rise in violence and vigilantism done IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY in this country. That does NOT mean that the Christian Church endorses it. That does NOT mean that Melba and Wilbur sitting in the pew endorse it. Okay, folks?

Not only does this constant portray of Christianity being attacked have an effect on the moderate Christian, it MOTIVATES the extremist.

Numerous examples of your ideological 'leaders' of the Republican platform and the mainstream conservative movement, walking ideologically AND PUBLICLY arm-in-arm with ideological MURDERERS, FURTHER EMBOLDEN THE EXTREMISTS.

The end result of the unholy and public coupling of your conservative Republican movement and those who publicly endorse killing, has resulted in vigilantism and an increase in violence towards minorities, which I have amply documented.

Period. End of premise. End of post. Ample evidence from reliable sources provided throughout the whole page.

How many murders have the minutemen committed now? I missed that part in your post. I believe those 19 assholes on 4 airplanes are the ones that emboldened people to watch our borders. I'm sorry that ILLEGAL ALIENS are being caught trying to cross our borders across hostile terrain, doing something that is extremely dangerous and extremely stupid.

You call it vigilantism, I call it a not so regulated militia. I don't live near that border anymore, but when I did I would have appreciated knowing that someone was keeping criminals out of my backyard.

And lastly..you said that you agreed with Bush on this ONE issue...I bet it's FUCKING KILLING YOU to have to agree with him about anything!!! You can pretend to be something you're not, but like you said, everybody that reads on here knows what you are and who you support and who you don't. If you hate to sound condescending, then why do you do it all the time???

Now I'm done.

How many murders have the minutemen committed now? I missed that part in your post.

You missed the whole premise. We also disagree with what constitutes murder apparently. Taking food and water from someone so they starve to death is murder in my eyes.

I'm sorry that ILLEGAL ALIENS are being caught

Why? I'm not sorry they are being caught. I am sorry that in our attempt to better the situation, we are making things more dangerous.

You call it vigilantism, I call it a not so regulated militia.

laughable as to the difference.

you said that you agreed with Bush on this ONE issue...I bet it's FUCKING KILLING YOU to have to agree with him about anything!

it's clear you all don't know how to read. I do disagree with Bush on about 80%+ of his philosophy, but I agree with a proactive stance on terror (just not his way), I agree that the MinuteMen are wrong, and I agree with him that the internets are more few, for starters.

If you hate to sound condescending, then why do you do it all the time?

having to explain something to you over and over, that everyone else gets, is tiring.

everybody that reads on here knows what you are and who you support and who you don't.

but you always get that wrong too. You and others here have always accused me of being a Kerry man. I was always a Dean man first, a Clark man second, Kerry was down on the list.

damn. end italic.

>>but you always get that wrong too. You and others here have always accused me of being a Kerry man. I was always a Dean man first, a Clark man second, Kerry was down on the list.<<

Come on man, if you're going to drink the damned kool-aid then DRINK it, don't sip it like a little girl!

Dave

I have no idea what that means Dave.

Steve S. "I'm glad he's cleared of charges. Why is it uncredible that it happened 14 days ago and not last night?

Because of the age and you made no effort to verify what the latest on the story was. You posted that glaring headline for two possible reasons. One you were too damm lazy to check. Or two, in hopes of making a point about vigilantism on the border.

If you claim it was for another reason your just a flat out liar.

Steve S "Taking food and water from someone so they starve to death is murder in my eyes."

Source please. Where is it reported the Minutemen removed water or food?

Steve S. "I was always a Dean man first, a Clark man second, Kerry was down on the list."

Why am I not surprised? Then you support Dean using terminology such as "evil," or "We have got to start laying the groundwork for a national party, for a national message. ... [Republicans] are mean. They are not nice people."

Wouldn't that embolden some on the extremist left? Sure it would, but you may never admit it.

And I suppose by showing some support for Clark (who got fired BTW for not following direct presidential orders as detailed in his own book) you see nothing wrong in Clark not condemning Moore's calling a president a deserter?
Then eight days later when given a chance to comment on the matter he sputtered:"Well, I've never looked into those ... those allegations."

Or Moore, for that matter, given such a visable place at the Democratic Convention.

Let me guess you don't believe these idiots don't cause the likes of International answer, Code Pink or the recent pie throwing assasins that have stalked a few conservatives to act in extreme ways.

Not to mention that nutjog Al Gore who gave another example just how extreme he can be today in front of a Moveon crowd of moonbats.

Pot, Kettle, BLACK

removing food and water from the desert is murder, but from a hospice house in FL, it's just a nice thing to do? What a fucking hypocrite!!!

BTW, I almost forgot.

Steve explain to me how Air America can broadcast a "comedy" piece that advocates the murder of the President and not enflame the kooks, nutjobs and various and sundry extreme left wing.

Or is that somehow different?

Ah... Andy, that's about right.

Marc: "...explain to me how... a "comedy" piece that advocates the murder of the President and not enflame the kooks, nutjobs and various and sundry extreme left wing."

The Left usually make jokes, satire, funny sketches on late night tv, and if lucky, a little laughter.

The Right usually shoot people and blow things up. All the best assassins were Right Wingers.

(see "Anti-aboritionist Christians who murder Doctors in order to demonstrate that they are Pro-Life")

Ahahahahahahaha.

See the difference?

We have folks going on hunger strikes for you Steve. I hope it works!

>>The Right usually shoot people and blow things up. All the best assassins were Right Wingers.<<

Not to rain on your parade, but historicallly most successful assassins have been radical socialist anarchists who would currently identify themselves more with the left than the right in America. This, in fact, is the political persuasion of the founders of moveon.org.

Currently the most active terrorist groups worldwide aside from fundamentalist moslems are all leftwing groups. Here in the US the most prominent of those would be the ELF and ALF ecoterrorists. Hey, the Unabomber was a leftie - he sure was funny what with killing 2 people and maiming 23.

Dave

You beat me to it Dave.

Shark there isn't any difference, they are all nutjobs of the first order.

Andy after viewing your link, consider this the start of a betting pool.

What happens first:

Bush throwing caution to the political winds and clamping shut the border.

Or that fat sow of a human reaching 98lbs.

Anyone caught Fedexing White Castle burgers to that sow will automaticly be disqualified and forfit all monies.

Because of the age and you made no effort to verify what the latest on the story was. You posted that glaring headline for two possible reasons. One you were too damm lazy to check. Or two, in hopes of making a point about vigilantism on the border.

Obviously it is about making a point of vigilantism, since that is the premise of the whole post. Just because the guy was cleared of charges (and I'm glad, because that means nothing bad probably happened), doesn't mean there isn't a rise of pro-Aryan and pro-Christian activity in this country.

My link in comment 15 failed. Do a google search on Trinity College, 43 minorities, and see if you don't come up with a report from earlier this week in how terror threats against minorities has affected that Christian university.

I posted a link about hate crimes against gay people on the rise. This isn't done by SUV-haters.


Source please. Where is it reported the Minutemen removed water or food?

It's in the original post that nobody bothered to read. It is from the MinuteMen's own words, they posted on Free REpublic about how they are feeding that stuff to their hunting dogs.

Then you support Dean using terminology such as "evil," or "We have got to start laying the groundwork for a national party, for a national message. ... [Republicans] are mean. They are not nice people."

I don't agree with the national party, but the rest, yest I agree 100%. Republicans are meaner than shit. Here I am trying to save lives, and prove that this constant portrayal of Christianity being under attack is motivating extremists into action, complete with proof of hate crimes on the rise and you all are trying to turn this into an attack on liberals. You can't get over your partisanship to save lives. I think Republicans are evil and are not willing to compromise. ANd I also think that the extremists that the Republicans pandered to for votes, now have more power than the mainstream Republican and that the party has a whole has become far more extreme and has practically zero 'mainstream' left. I can think of no other reason why you all are dismissing the terror people are going through, that I am documenting.

Wouldn't that embolden some on the extremist left? Sure it would, but you may never admit it.

I deleted this top part so forgot what would embolden the left, but yes folks, there are extremists on the left who probably kill. I don't know because I am not one of their targets. And the premise is about how the REpublican movement has openly endorsed ideological killers such as Randall Terry and (see link in comment 45) as legitimate spokesmen for their movement. I can find no such equivalent on the left.

Since the link with question marks always breaks, there is a clickable link for the search engines in comment 45. Here it is for the rest of us: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20050509&s=blumenthal

you see nothing wrong in Clark not condemning Moore's calling a president a deserter?

I am trying to prove to you guys that right wing extremists are embolden into action, and you are trying to water that down with semantics of my choice of presidential candidate. I would say that makes you most evil indeed. Clark should have condemned Moore. Happy now?

Let me guess you don't believe these idiots don't cause the likes of International answer, Code Pink or the recent pie throwing assasins that have stalked a few conservatives to act in extreme ways.

I link to a report showing hate crimes, that which kills people and/or puts them in the emergency room, is on the rise due to vigilantism and you want to counter with a pie-thrower? Either evil or stupid.

Pot, Kettle, BLACK

the whole premise of the post is not an attack on Republican ideology. It is about extremism and vigilantism and how your leaders are coupling with the extremist leaders. Call me whatever you want, I'm going to go on trying to save lives, I just know after this thread to include the fact that mainstream Republicans endorse the extremists, and if you point it out, they will just attack you. (which of course further emboldens the extremists)

removing food and water from the desert is murder, but from a hospice house in FL, it's just a nice thing to do? What a fucking hypocrite!!!

I would say the difference there is that it was Terri's choice. It is not the choice of the illegal immigrant. They should just be detained and sent back to the border.

Steve explain to me how Air America can broadcast a "comedy" piece that advocates the murder of the President and not enflame the kooks, nutjobs and various and sundry extreme left wing. Or is that somehow different?

No, that should not have been done. I'm not entirely familiar with it, only vaguely, but it does sound wrong to me. However, people are not currently dying because of that radio show.

No, it was Terri's choice according to her husband. And it's an illegal immigrants choice to attempt to cross miles and miles of uninhabited wasteland to cross a border. Maybe they should carry their own food and water? Why are they entitled to free food and water? I don't get it when I drive across country?

No, it was Terri's choice according to her husband.

which, according to your side, is the most sacrosanct relationship on the planet (between husband and wife). We, as a society, give the spouse the right to speak on behalf of the other. At least until it conflicts with your ideology.

I don't get it when I drive across country?

Andy, there is SOOOOOO much you just don't get. They aren't driving. Yes, they are committing a crime, but it is NOT a crime punishable by death. They are seeking a better life, granted they are doing it wrong, but I am just floored that all the republicans here are okay with people putting their lives in jeopardy.

Nalle: "...most successful assassins have been radical socialist anarchists who would currently identify themselves more with the left than the right in America."



Yah, you're right, Dave. My bad...

Those "leftists" killed:

John F. Kennedy
Medgar Evers
Robert Kennedy
Martin Luther King, Jr.


Feh.


PS:

John Wilkes Booth = White Supremist

Timothy McVeigh = right winger

Terry Nichols = right winger

Eric Rudolph (Atlanta Olympic Park Bomber) - Anti-abortion Christoid Murderer

Dan White(killed Harvey Milk) = notorious homophobe

============

In recent history, the Left only had Ted K. (who was mostly RIGHT, btw) and Squeeky Fromm, who, being a stoned hippie, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Hinkley?

That's not really fair, Hinkley was a lousy shot, lucky for Ronnie!

And I thought of this last night: since my posts and comments are too long for people to read, I don't think pushing books here is the best thing for BC. Perhaps other products should be marketed.

Shark sure has a funny idea of what the Right Wing is. To classify McVeigh and Nichols as Right Wing is to completely misunderstand both their philosophy and the mainstream conservative philosophy in the US. And, of course, Sirhand Sirhan was an anti-Israel leftist who has been championed by many Democrats since his incarceration.

He also selectively ignores Leon Czolgosz who was a socialist anarchist and killed President William McKinley, as well as the Black Panther Party, Symbioneze Liberation Army, Weathermen and numerous other terrorist groups of the 1960s which were all leftist in orientation.

Save

Dave, extremists who harm are bad on either side. But please help save lives here, okay? Democratic leaders do not attend seminars/conferences and photo opportunities with ideological killers. Please, Dave, where is your compassion? Do you not see ANY validity in what I am saying?

Dave Nalle: Shark sure has a funny idea of what the Right Wing is.

Look who's talking.

Leon Czolgosz - oh yeah, he's relevent.

I see selective validity to what you're saying. I don't have as much sympathy for illegal aliens as you do, and I don't feel much difference between a Republican ignorant of the background of a Minuteman endorsing him because of what he's attempting to do, and a Democrat supporting Arafat or Castro or any of the many ideological killers they've supported over the years out of ignorance, naivete or whatever reasons they have.

There is certainly a general validity for condemning politicians for embracing unsavory characters who happen to share their political position on a given issue, but to make it look like a Republican problem is truly deceptive, and implying that the Republicans are supporting the minutemen because they agree with the racist views of a few of them is just an outright lie.

As I've said before, I'm against extremism in all its forms, but trying to discredit relatively mainstream politicians with reasonable positions by associating them with extremists unfairly is a form of extremism in and of itself.

Dave

I don't feel much difference between a Republican ignorant of the background of a Minuteman

Were Republicans ignorant of Randall Terry's background? Were Republicans ignorant of Bo Gritz's background? Referring to my link in comment 72, are Republicans ignorant of Tony Perkin's ties with racist groups? What DO the REpublicans know about those they lie in an ideological bed with?

implying that the Republicans are supporting the minutemen because they agree with the racist views of a few of them is just an outright lie.

In the post that nobody read, I did not say that there was support together because they all agree with racist views. The Republicans have an agenda to promote (yes, Dave, so do liberals), but the republicans are using extremists as their ideological spokesmen. That doesn't mean that the republicans support the ideology of the spokesman, but it DOES have a consequence to people in that it emboldens right-wing extremists.

but trying to discredit relatively mainstream politicians with reasonable positions by associating them with extremists unfairly

I'm not the one associating them! It's all documented above, complete with links for your viewing pleasure! They CHOOSE to be associated publicly together.

For additional documentation:

from the washington post:

(quote) The statement by one of the sponsors of tomorrow's event, Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, is an example of the Holy War that is being launched by the right. In one of the most outrageous smears to be uttered by a so-called religious leader, Perkins said that "activist courts, aided by liberal interest groups . . . have been quietly working under the veil of the judiciary, like thieves in the night, to rob us of our Christian heritage and our religious freedoms." That is an unmitigated lie that should not be allowed to stand.

Which judges are out to rob Christians of their heritage? That is religious McCarthyism. Perkins should name them, provide evidence of their attempted theft of "our Christian heritage" or retract that statement with an apology. Don't count on that happening.(end quote)

For additional documentation:

from the nation:

(quote)On Justice Sunday, Perkins introduced Frist as "a friend of the family"....

With Justice Sunday, Perkins's ambition to become a national conservative leader was ratified; Bill Frist's presidential campaign for 2008 was advanced with the Christian right; and the faithful were imbued with the notion that they are being victimized by liberal Democratic evildoers.
(end quote)

read the whole article to understand how people like Frist are ideologically endorsing people like racist Perkins.

For additional documentation:

from the Family Research Council's own website:

(quote)Q -- How have activist judges abused their power?

A -- Judges are abusing their power if they read into the Constitution principles that are not declared by the plain language of the Constitution. For example, the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." But nowhere does it say that there should be a strict "separation of church and state" at all levels of government, barring any acknowledgment of God. The decision legalizing abortion was based on the "right to privacy" -- but no such right is declared in the Constitution.
(end quote)

That clearly tells us that the religious right has the separation of church and state and the right to privacy in their crosshairs. And they have the endorsement of Republican Majority Leader Frist.

Dave The Deluded "moderate" Hypocrite sez: "...trying to discredit relatively mainstream politicians with reasonable positions by associating them with extremists unfairly is a form of extremism in and of itself."

This -- from the same guy who said:

"...most successful assassins have been radical socialist anarchists who would currently identify themselves more with the left than the right in America. This, in fact, is the political persuasion of the founders of moveon.org."

Mr. I'm A Moderate With Integrity links assassins, social anarchists, the left in America, and moveon.org in one bullshit, Orwellian masterpiece of right-wing blather.

Next Post: *"How to speak to Dave Coulter."








The irony is just too much.

re: Hinckley + Squeeky Fromme

I rest my case: liberals are always lousy shots.

(The really good gun handlers are disproportionately Conservative. Coincidence? About as coincidental as Tom Delay coming from a career as a professional Exterminator.)

I'm still trying to figure out the earlier comment made by marc, of a pie-throwing assassin.

Did somebody die by cobbler somewhere?

Did squeeky even get off a shot?

Shark, where did you get the idea that I'm a moderate? I'm in favor of moderates because they're less troublesome than right or left wing radicals, but I'm a radical extremist in my own right.

Just as the radical right makes religion their banner cause and the radical left makes social justice their banner cause, I make freedom my banner cause, and will go to any extreme to promote and protect it from either the right or the left.

Not that you bother to read any of the actual articles on BC, Shark - but if you had bothered to read mine I spend more time attacking the religious right than most people on here, but unlike your goofy emotional ideology-driven attacks, mine make sense.

Dave

but if you had bothered to read mine I spend more time attacking the religious right than most people on here, but unlike your goofy emotional ideology-driven attacks, mine make sense.

do ever go one fucking day of your life without accusing somebody of either not reading your articles and/or comments?

we read it.

we just don't happen to agree with some of it.

why is that so hard for you to understand?

Are you actually supposed to read the posts before you make comments on them?

Steve S. Obviously it is about making a point of vigilantism, since that is the premise of the whole post.

And you attempted to use that story that had nothing to do with the Minutemen or vigilantism and everything to do with an average citizen that felt threatened and reacted. But by posting the link you attempt to spin it into something different.

Hey steve, better check "your Google" me thinks it's broken.

Here is what you claim to have found "Do a google search on Trinity College, 43 minorities, and see if you don't come up with a report from earlier this week in how terror threats against minorities has affected that Christian university.


Again you failed to do your homework and posted a completely unrelated story. It's getting to be a bad habit. Or is it willful scare tactics?

Here's the real story:

"A black college student who admitted sending hate mail has been told to avoid contact with other students at Illinois' Trinity College as a condition of bail."

Ya see the poor baby didn't like the College mama sent her to and made up the hate mail in an effort to change mama's mind about her selection. "Oh mama, poor is me,I'M scaaaaared!!!

But, I'll give you a chance; please explain how one whiney bitch of a college student who wound up in jail for her actions is related to religious hatred?

Come on clue us all in..... we're waiting.....

And you attempted to use that story that had nothing to do with the Minutemen or vigilantism and everything to do with an average citizen that felt threatened and reacted.

wouldn't have felt threatened if he wasn't running around the border armed but left it to the Border Patrol, huh?

Again you failed to do your homework and posted a completely unrelated story. It's getting to be a bad habit. Or is it willful scare tactics?

I posted that story 15 minutes after Yahoo news published it. I doubt even Yahoo would have been able to complete the story as it was 'in progess' at the time of the posting.

Marc, whether you like it or not, there is a rise in vigilantism in this country and it is fueled by the Republican party 's incestuous and open relationship with Aryan racists who openly promote killing. Too bad, so sad, people all over other blogs are starting to see it. It's not my problem if you choose to not see it.

DaveNalle: "...where did you get the idea that I'm a moderate?"


Dave, I got the idea yer a fucking hypocrite.

Marc, I have posted evidence that the judge in the Schiavo case, as well as a California conservative Republican judge who recently ruled in favor of same-sex marriage have to have 24/7 bodyguards.

Conservatives have long portrayed judges as being anti-American. Coincidence?

I have posted evidence that hate crimes against gays and lesbians are on the rise. Conservatives have long portrayed gays and lesbians as a threat to their society. Coincidence?

Conservatives have long portrayed illegals crossing the border as an immenient problem (and yes, it is a serious problem), but now we have as a result what PRESIDENT BUSH calls vigilantes on the border. Coincidence?

Your cranial cavity is missing some grey matter, seriously. You can dismiss the evidence all you want, thankfully many, many people are starting to see it, and it's not due to me, it's due to the evidence in front of them.

DaveNalle: "...I make freedom my banner cause, and will go to any extreme to promote and protect it..."

GeorgeOrwell: "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."

"What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents." - Robert Francis Kennedy

Steve "wouldn't have felt threatened if he wasn't running around the border armed but left it to the Border Patrol, huh?

Once again our ignorance shows through. What is you apparent favorite saying? "Read the post" or "read the linked...."

He wasn't "running around the border" he was travelling on I-8 enroute his home in Arizona from Cali. The incident occured when he stopped at a rest stop.

Throw that shovel away! You may have hit bottom!

Steve "Too bad, so sad, people all over other blogs are starting to see it. It's not my problem if you choose to not see it."

Nothing to see. I have never questioned whether there is or isn't a rise in vigilantism.

What you will find is you attempting to trump up your position by posting unrelated stories that are easily debunked with very little effort.

And BTW just because Yahoo is behind the times doesn't excuse you from posting trash. The story on the Trinity bitch broke about 12 hours prior to the time stamp on your comment referencing it.

So I guess your reading the wrong news source. Or not enough of them.

okay, the two 'googled' items that I pulled from news sources, down in the comments section, while engaging in on-going debate, may not be motivated by vigilantism, but the reaction the individuals/university had, was obviously fueled by an underlying fear that was instigated by the vigilante mood going on in the country.

HOWEVER, all the original post, Marc does not debunk, he corroborates there is a rise in vigilantism, and the connections between Republican leaders and Aryan extremists stands unbunked as well.

I can live with that.

Steve "Marc does not debunk, he corroborates there is a rise in vigilantism, and the connections between Republican leaders "

And where to hell did I ever say that? You truly are delusional!

Steve "while engaging in on-going debate"

And that's a valid excuse for posting bullshit?

The fact of the matter is you got into a position where you scrambled to provide substance for your point and
choose sources that weren't factual, timely or on topic PERIOD!

In the heat of the debate my aching ass!


And the ground swell of left wing moonbattery continues.

Indy Media Watch reports that Seattle moonbats are busy planning for "Freeze the Media Day

"Freeze the Mesia Day" is when people all around the country drop superglue and toothpicks into the money slots of slimy corperate (sic) media newspaper dispensers...This is a nationwide event, and we're looking for solidarity everywhere to help spread this empowering message.

Marc, in 102, you are the one taking my words out of context.

I said "all the original post, Marc does not debunk"

and that is true.

I said "the connections between Republican leaders and Aryan extremists stands unbunked as well"

and that is true. I didn't say you said those things, I said you have debunked none of them. Please practice more on understanding your grammar.

and what I said you did say was: "he corroborates there is a rise in vigilantism"

which was derived from your response of:
"I have never questioned whether there is or isn't a rise in vigilantism"

Which we can conclude since all you can do is attack liberals like myself, and since you just revel in debunking things, thinking that is some speciality you have, but you do NOT debunk the most serious charges against your party, one concludes the obvious.

I don't know what the point is, in supergluing newspaper machines, since out here, the first person to plop in a quarter takes the whole stack of papers to resell on street corners and the newspaper racks are always empty by 7 a.m.

and before you respond, marc, I suggest you look up the meaning of the word 'corroborate'.

"....serious charges against your party, one concludes the obvious."

So you have a David Blaine nack for perceiving something that has never been said. ESP as it were.

You should get into show business. Maybe the Amazing Kreskin will hire you as his opening act.

You know what they say about assuming something?

further documentation of Republican/Nazi ideology for the thread:

Republican puts forth bill forbidding public libraries from receiving books from gay authors or that include gay characters.

Marc, the premise is just as strong as ever. Perhaps you can scan up the thread and find a comma out of place to zero in on.

anti gay means nazi? At least you stopped calling yourself a progressive and reverted back to what you really are...a liberal.

If you clicked on the link, you would see that I wasn't the one to make the connection, but having said that andy, to YOU, they wouldn't be the same.

To a gay person in America, who is facing discrimination put into the Constitution, who is facing having any mention of us removed from public facilities, and who are suffering an increase in violence due to Christian vigilantism, we might have a different perspective that we don't expect YOU to be able to relate to.

Right Wingers attempt to force 13 year old to have child.

Further documentation for the thread.

Yes Steve, all conservatives are Satan, blah blah blah. You're starting to sound a bit like a teacher in a Taliban elementary school.

But regarding earlier comments...

Snark: "GeorgeOrwell: "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.""

The interesting thing is that each of those maxims is true when looked at with more than superficial attention - which I realize is beyond you.

As shown in Iraq sometimes the only way to build peace is to make war against the warmakers.

As anyone who believes in self-reliance knows, the freedom to live your own life brings with it slavery to the responsibilities which a self-reliant life inevitably brings.

And who could doubt that Ignroance is strength, since the ignorance of extremism carries with it the strength of absolute certainty and self-righteousness - what this discussion is really all about.

Steve S: RFK - "What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant."

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - Barry Goldwater

The thing about those who are extreme in the defense of liberty is that this means they are extreme in their support of tolerance and their rejection of intolerance. Which isn't such a bad thing.

Dave

Dave, I didn't say all conservatives were Satan. Their extremist ideology kills, as is being documented. Their mainstream ideology is asleep at the wheel.

The thing about those who are extreme in the defense of liberty is that this means they are extreme in their support of tolerance and their rejection of intolerance. Which isn't such a bad thing.

That sounds all fine and good, but that isn't you Dave. I point out the consequences of Christian intolerance and you dismiss it and try to debate with me on the evils of liberals. You don't even fit the quotes you select.

>>That sounds all fine and good, but that isn't you Dave. I point out the consequences of Christian intolerance and you dismiss it and try to debate with me on the evils of liberals. You don't even fit the quotes you select.<<

You just don't get it at all. Tolerance is so foreign to your nature that you don't even recognize it in others. You see, I'm willing to be tolerant of some pandering to Christian extremists for political purposes without damning those who do it, even if I damn the Christian extremists, just as I'm willing to be tolerant of self-serving political obstructionism on the part of senatorial democrats filibustering just to hold onto a little bit of power. It's all political opportunism and it's all equal in my eyes. I sneer and deride, but I tolerate.

You, on the other hand, damn people by association - at least so long as the people are conservatives. Is someone a racist because he sits on a panel with a racist? Is someone a murderer because he attends church with someone who supports the murder of abortionists? Most reasonable, tolerant people would withold judgement until the person in question makes a clear inidication of their own unacceptable beliefs.

Dave

Is someone a racist because he sits on a panel with a racist? Is someone a murderer because he attends church with someone who supports the murder of abortionists?

What a way to try and rationalize the extremists at the helm.

No, Dave, NOWHERE in this thread did I say that the entire conservative movement is racist or murderers. I said that the conservative movement has coupled with extremists and the consequences is costing lives and increasing violence. It's a simple premise. The left gets it. The mainstream right gets what I am saying elsewhere, it's just here that I'm hitting a brick wall in getting my point across with you. oh well. Now I understand you better at least, and I guess you can say the same for me.

Further documentation for thread:

Al Gore speaks about the Family Research Council's attack on Judges and the Republican assault on the nomination of judges.

Not sure an Al Gore speech is what we call 'documentation' in anything but the technical sense. And I revile you for making me read that drivel, btw. Especially the first page of whining about the election.

Dave

I didn't make you read anything Dave. This isn't an attack on conservative ideology or on Bush, I think that would exempt this thread from your job description.

As for documentation, he talks about the attack on the judicial system, the right wing ties of Perkins to it all, and basically corroborates a lot of the stuff I said here, which you guys accused me of being overly paranoid about.

I find it ironically amusing that Christians are now screaming about being targets of discrimination and eradication when for over two millenia they themselves have been the foremost practitioners and proponents of religious-based genocide, terror, and disenfranchisement against non-Christians and non-conformists, as well as other sects of Christians. What goes around comes around, and now it's their turn they don't like it much. They can dish it out but they can't take it.

Ditto both the left and the right: by what I hear and read, liberals are a conspiracy of left-wing bleeding hearts who feel there should be no standards for anything, and conservatives are a pack of neo-nazis who think everyone should be as authoritarian and selfish as they are. Both sides consider that their ego-driven agendas excuse and entitle them to whatever violations of law or rights they feel like perpetrating - in the case of liberals, to aid and abet illegals in the name of "humanitarianism" (during WWII, also known as giving aid and comfort to the enemy - high treason, even for civilians), in the case of conservatives, encroaching on constitutional and Bill of Rights freedoms to keep everyone not of their narrow stripe living and thinking in the way conservatives feel they should.

Of the two, I can't decide which is more dangerous or a bigger bunch of fruitcakes. The hubris is tremendous.