You're a freakin' goof. You actually think snowfall has ANYTHING to do with global warming? God help us all.

If you have any care about this issue at all beyond smacking around liberals check out http://www.realclimate.org/

(A blog by REAL climate scientists)

Seriously -- while reasonable people may disagree on how much of the current trend in global warming is directly attributable to human behavior, or what we can or should do to slow or stop it, there is no question at all among anybody who has ever looked at the numbers that the earth is heating up. Period.

Are those the 'real' scientists with the crystal balls, the ones with the socialist worker party IDs, or the ones with the computer models which have to be completely redesigned every 6 months?

Dave

No, those are the 'real' scientists who are putting fluoride in our water.

What the fuck has "socialist worker party IDs" got to do with anything?

"Are those the 'real' scientists ... the ones with the socialist worker party IDs"

You're kidding, right? Trolling for a flame fight, or what?

Mark

I would recommend you take some basic science courses at a local community college. Your lack of knowledge in this area is astounding. Global warming is a PROCESS. It doesn't occur over a year or even ten. Human's have been bringing this on for several centuries... The cumulative effect is just now reaching us.

I suggest you STOP reading both LIBERAL and CONSERVATIVE idiots and stick to finding the TRUTH on your own.

I realize I'm just repeating what Vensid and others already said, but global warming is not measured by snowfall or temperature trends in one place.

Also, if global warming is another liberal conspiracy (like evolution, DNA, and what not), why are the Pentagon's brightest strategists considering its potential impacts? Here's a link to an article in a little leftist rag called Fortune about it:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,582584,00.html

Rather than just harass and harangue each other, one should explain, from a liberal perspective, how global warming causes snow in Colorado and Greenland.

It's really quite simple. According to Dr. Sidney Sheldon of the Australian Institute for the Influence of Carbon Nanotubes on Environmental Quantum Flux, and I quote, "The underlying methodology which reveals the actuated processes resulting in disproportionate environmental responses to underweighted impacts depends upon the inverse proportional relation between the net production of environmentally-destructive emissions (such as Australian sheep fart) and the number of Higgs Bosons that contribute to the quantum flux in that part of the environment."

Now...what could be clearer than that?

Mark, you nut! Australian sheep farts are insignificant compared to the power of New Zealand sheep farts.

Last week one of my co-workers got rained on while riding his bicycle to work. His comment: "So much for the drought!"

But the reality is, we're still facing a drought this summer, even though it's been raining for a couple of weeks. What causes droughts around here is insufficient snowpack in the mountains, and we're still short by more than half from what we'd need for a normal, non-drought summer.

But humans tend to get mentally lazy, and so we think a couple of brief rain showers cancel out months of drought conditions, and we think one blizzard cancels out years of global climate change.

I stand corrected, Victor, although I can't say anything bad about New Zealand. Any country that was the site for The Lord of the Rings is all good in my view. What's a little drought when you've been part of the greatest story ever told.

But if you go back to my quote from the scientist, it explains droughts too. It explains everything. Except Gonzo. (I wonder if he's reading this thread?)

The blizzards in Denver are caused by a well-understood phenomenon, moisture-laden air moving upslope. When this happens, an "upslope condition" storm drops tons of heavy, wet snow and ice on Denver and communities to the west of it (upslope).

I remember an upslope dump of snow in the first week of my second year at Mines (Golden, CO), when the trees still had green leaves on them. the icy, wet snow froze in great clumps on the leaves, and killed dozens of trees on campus by breaking them off at the trunk.

There was another one on the March day we got married. We held our wedding "reception" outside, under a creaking plastic unbrella at the local Arbys, watching slabs of wet white weight cascade off the restaurant roof.

I'll believe the rumors of so called global warming when the weather man is more than 50% accurate. Check out this little tidbit from a gov web page:

The climactic Pinatubo cloud was the largest sulfur dioxide cloud ever observed in the stratosphere since the beginning of such observations by satellites in 1978. It caused what is believed to be the largest aerosol disturbance of the stratosphere this century, although smaller than the estimated disturbances from the eruptions of Tambora in 1815 and Krakatau in 1883. Sulfate aerosol formed in the stratosphere from sulfur dioxide in the Pinatubo cloud increased the reflection of radiation from the Sun back into space. Consequently, the Earth's surface cooled in the three years following the eruption, by as much as 1.3 degrees.

So which is it. Are we cooling down or heating up? BTW record amounts of carbon monoxide were released by Mt. Pinatubo.

I understand the worries of some that I am very ignorant. Lemme give you my point of view:

Liberals have been bringing it on for years that humans have been causing the global uprise in temperature. There is absolutely no scientific agreement on the matter, it tends to be split. Enviromental activists tend to be louder than the global warming isnt happening activists, and so what we here is the mumbo jumbo about global warming about to ruin the Earth.

I have yet to see any convincing proof that the carbon dioxide we are emitting, the same plants use to live, is going in the long run to cause a drastic change in the Earth's enviroment. I have seen several graphs like the one at http://www.eskimo.com/~bpentium/articles/figure1.GIF

(While that isnt the most reliable source in the world, I have seen it at reliable sources, believe me)

Anyway, whether any of that connects to my post, that can be argued. I just thought I'd bring it up.

There is absolutely no scientific agreement on the matter, it tends to be split.

Yep, you're ignorant.

New Zealand has many sheep, but doesn't have me. I'm in Oregon. Sorry for any confusion on that point.

As for the climate change disputation, the fact remains, a single blizzard (or even a single volcanic eruption) tells us nothing at all about the trends in climate change -- not until we analyze it together with millions of other data points.

That's why it is always foolish for people to argue about long term global climate change with isolated references to Mount Pinatubo, or someplace having a blizzard in April. Show me a century's worth of April blizzards, or even a solid decade, and then maybe you might have some point worth talking about.

Well, Victor, then you should apologize to all New Zealanders for casting aspersions on their country, given what they've given us.

You'll notice I'm not going to do a serious post on this thread. It's a collections of wild emotions, anecdotes, opinions, and vague references to studies conducted by a million monkeys typing away trying to write Hamlet.

There's tons of good science on both sides--none of it's conclusive. It's not a liberal/conservative issue at all. This issue's too important for polemics.

The only reason I brought up Pinatubo is because it did have a measured effect on global temperatures - unlike mans puny efforts.

I've cast no aspersions upon New Zealand! I've praised the indisputable mightiness of their nation's sheep flatulence, a contribution to the world's atmospheric composition which may yet save us all from a new ice age.

Or not.

My sole serious point here has been quite simple. One blizzard, all by itself, tells us nothing about global warming. Not even if it happens in the middle of the summer.

JR, I quote cato:

"...a recent Gallup poll of climate scientists in the American Meteorological Society and in the American Geophysical Union shows that a vast majority doubts that there has been any identifiable man-caused warming to date (49 percent asserted no, 33 percent did not know, 18 percent thought some has occurred; however, among those actively involved in research and publishing frequently in peer-reviewed research journals, none believes that any man-caused global warming has been identified so far). On the whole, the debate within the meteorological community has been relatively healthy and, in this regard, unusual."

Don't quote Cato - JR will conclude you're an evil minion of the conservative devilmen.

If you recall my article on global warming from about a month ago, there's a reason why scientists overwhemingly reject human agency in global warming, even if they believe in global warming. The amount of warming and the pattern in which it is taking place is consistent with historic temperature change trends, and there's no real evidence to suggest otherwise.

Dave

The largest contributor to GREEN HOUSE gases, as any guy knows, are adolescent males - that is males between the ages of 13 to 33 (I'm being generous there - I doubt adolescent behavior ends at 33).

Re: althinos59's comment, a recent study actually found that our dandruff and dead skin cells are a major form of air pollution: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7348467/.

Ummmmm . . . breathe in a big breath of fresh air.

Folks, please try to separate two different factors here, as I pointed out in comment #2. There is now essentially no disagreement that the earth is heating up. There is disagreement over why, or whether we can or should do anything to stop it.

We can measure the increase in global temperature in any one of a dozen different ways, and they all back each other up consistently. We don't know how long it will continue, or whether there is anything we can do to stop it, and there is much disagreement over whether it is really man-made or just part of a natural cycle. Yes, we can track human-caused atmospheric effects over local areas, but the link to the trend in global temperature is not as firm as one might think.

Global warming is a reality, not a political point. The politics are in what we do about it.

>>Folks, please try to separate two different factors here, as I pointed out in comment #2. There is now essentially no disagreement that the earth is heating up. There is disagreement over why, or whether we can or should do anything to stop it.<<

I thought I'd already made this point. There's also a division over whether moderate global warming as we seem to be experiencing is a problem which should or can be dealt with. If, as anticipated, the total warming is a matter of about 2 degrees, while that may cause some climactic changes, it's not going to create a doomsday scenario. It's debatable whether we actually can do anything about it, but if we can do something, should we even try?

>>Global warming is a reality, not a political point. The politics are in what we do about it.<<

Global warming may be a reality, but there are a lot of political issues surrounding its use as a club to try to impose policies of questionable value on nations around the world.

Dave

The Silver Melting Cup for Rational Thought has been awarded to Phillip & Dave. Congratulations gentlement; you can pick your award at your convenience.

We've been living through such a long period of relative climate stability that one can forget how violent the earth's climate has been over its geological history.

I was an early skeptic about the warming trend, but I'm almost convinced. The problem--as both Phillip & Dave have pointed out--is we're not sure why, how much is related to human behavior, and what the hell we can do about it, if anything.

The issue has become a political football on both sides, which will result either in one of the great cultural successes of all times (no more Reality TV shows or Pamela Anderson or Paris Marriot) ... or a gigantic yawn as nothing happens.

Me, I'd err on the side of caution, but it's increasingly become as much a third world problem as a US problem.

On the other hand, I have no faith in our politicians of either stripe. We can't even tackle simple issues such as 1/4 of black children living in abject poverty. How the hell are we going to tackle a global warming issue?

If we could find a global warming cure that would get rid of Paris Hilton, Pamela Anderson and reality TV then I'm sure we could reach an international accord to implement it.

Solving global warming seems to work best as a disaster movie plot and not so well as an actual real world activity, though the idea of exploding a whole bunch of nuclear bombs in, say - North Korea or Iran - to push us a little farther out in our orbit around the sun, has a lot of appeal.

Dave

One good volcanic blast will solve the mystery forever.

What does that mean?

The same thing as lots of particulates in the atmos caused by emissions... any emissions.

The suspense continues...

Oh by the way...[for the scientific onboard] is there any truth to the rumor that STS launches put more R12 into the upper atmosphere than all the R12 in all the vehicles in the U.S. put together?

We've had some pretty good-sized volcanic blasts, like Mt Pinatubo, that ended up not affecting things nearly as much as predicted. That's one reason why a lot of people who had been pretty gung-ho on the "humans are causing this" side of things are taking a step back and trying to look deeper.

Of course, others are using the same event to come down even more firmly on the "humans are causing this" side of things.

Diesels do not produce carbon monoxcide. Why aren't we (the U.S.) promoting that technology? The EU has done wonders with it.

As for Volcano's, when I said a Volcanic blast... I meant a significant volcanic event.

Yes Pinatubo looks significant, but geologically, it wasn't.

The Yellowstone caldera was significant, and it estimated to have disemenated the North American continent at least twice over geological history.

Significant volcanic events do happen, and will happen again. Not that it is Global Warming... but cooling. Perhaps Global Climate Alteration would be a better definition of what actually occurs.

Diesels produce carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas, as do all other forms of combustion involving carbon.

Gasoline and diesel engines burn complex hydrocarbon chains, so both produce carbon dioxide. Dirty, inefficient engines of both types also produce a host of larger hydrocarbon molecules which contribute to smog in large cities.

Well-maintained diesel engines might burn cleaner than gasoline engines, but forcing Americans to keep their vehicles well-maintained is a taller order than persuading Europeans to do it.

Natural gas engines burn simple hydrocarbons, so they usually don't spew as much of the smog-producing hydrocarbons, but even the cleanest natural gas engines still produce carbon dioxide.

The only easily combustible fuel I know of that won't produce any carbon dioxide is pure hydrogen. The waste material from hydrogen combustion is pure water.

The problem with hydrogen is it's not nearly as dense as gasoline or diesel. So using it as a combustible fuel would require carrying it around in high-pressure tanks, which is a bit more dangerous in a collision than the simple liquid fuel tanks on conventional vehicles.

This is why alternative vehicle researchers are now focusing on hydrogen fuel cells, which might let us use hydrogen as a clean energy storage medium without needing high-pressure storage tanks.

The Yellowstone caldera was significant, and it estimated to have disemenated the North American continent at least twice over geological history.

That sounds like something that could have a profound effect on the birthrate, if nothing else.

Sorry Jeff. You have proved your point. You are, in fact, ignorant.

If you believe that global warming is not real because it snowed in Denver in April, we really are all doomed.

Because, sadly, there are others just as mis-guided as Jeff.

Oh, here's an event. Therefore, my world view has been validated. Case closed.

More like mind closed.

Think about it, Jeff.

Forests. Gone.
Oil. Burned up.
Coal. Dug up.
Cars, people, buildings, machines. Hot.

Pretty hard to figure this out.

As others pointed out, extreme weather deviations are further evidence that the earth is getting hotter.

It is a fact.

The earth is getting hotter.

There are 2 arguments. Is it natural and/or man-made?

And if it is getting hotter, is that bad?

Most intelligent folks believe a hotter earth is bad.

Jeff, I hope that helps.

RJ, thanks for the spelling lesson. I learned how to type years ago... and I rip along at around 50 to 60 wpm. Maybe I should use Word and spellcheck it... but wait that wouldn't have worked either...
L8tr

Desemenated should have been
Decimated

Freudian slip, Chuck? Perhaps your mailbox is deficient of "Male Enhancement" spam...

Doc...
That one went right over my head... but it's filled with bourbon and coke at the moment... so it was no mean feet (oh crap there I go again).

Hey ya know what?!?!? you are all gay if you think this kind of stuff is actually interesting.

"You're kidding, right? Trolling for a flame fight, or what?"

ha you gay old people make me laugh.

"AMERICA in CONTRIBUTION to: "FRIENDLY ENVIROMENT and PEACE."

The following message is for conscientious humans with interest in preservation of the most precious resources in the planet Earth, its people and their habitat. The message is prophetic in nature and contains essential truth to enlighten the consciousness of those that seek Peace and Prosperity; and Spiritual Freedom for all new generations for all created people. It is to meditate its contents and search for that truth among those that believe; the Chosen and Faithful, and to make awareness of that Evil Mind trying to control those resources by Fear and Destruction. The message is being stopped and returned by the delivery systems in many occasions with excuses of fatal address errors or no valid recipients, etcetera. Those holding this message are cursing themselves with dark ignorance. Ivor Manuel prays for you and Peace for the World, prophet of the Lord.

January 13, 2005. Orlando. City of Lights. Dear Sirs

It is remarkable to see and hear how many scientific and speculative theories are being exposed on the press, radio and television by the editing media about what some call the wrecked, creeping, wicked weather.
In January 18, 2003; a letter with an "Apocalyptic Warning Message" was sent to the United Nations before the United States lunched its War against Iraq. Press release copies were also sent to some members of the media and clergy, among them "The Orlando Sentinel" main news paper in this city; The New York Times, Reverends Charles Stanly, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson among others; part of that message reads like the following words:
"Then I saw the execution, the execution of hate and wickedness where hundreds of innocents humans at a time, and thousands a time, and hundreds of thousands to the end were killed, children, women and men, young and old, all innocents souls. Yes, I also saw poor innocent souls paid and trained to be mercilessly cruel. The armies of the Beast were drugged to encourage and enhance performance to kill. They dropped over the Earth thousands of what the prophet Isaiah called: "The weapons of his indignation to destroy the whole land." I heard this King constant vocalization of "Human Rights," but he does not have regard for innocent humans nor the Holy Spirit within or the Word of God or the testimony they held."
" The great truth was given to me in a prophetic vision. Bombs were being dropped unrelentlessly from the sky, pulverizing buildings by the dozens in just minutes; where dozens of innocents were killed at a time, and sometimes dozens of dozens times dozens. The great slaughter, the Earth pounded along with its people and animals. Moreover the shaking and the trembling of the crust of the Earth by the power of these weapons cause braking and shifting underground of rocks, creating earthquakes around the planet. Volcanoes became active and lava started to erupt from cracks and pits of bombs explosions and earthquakes. The Earth was bleeding and the rivers were being flooded with blood running to the seas. Water and air contaminated with chemical dust and winds full of radiation killing thousands more by poison and asphyxia; heat melting flesh and people running crazily over each other trying to find a door to get out of Hell. Total chaos, the acceleration of "Global Warming" by these "Blasphemous Weapons" will melt the poles flooding parts of the Earth with fury."
Although I am not a scientist or a member of the clergy, nor a politician; but rather a prophet of GOD, I have received instructions to warn the people of America and the World, about how the first great earthquake that produce the "Tsunami"; was in deed the aftermath of the pounding of the crust of the Earth by the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" the United States has being dropping in Afghanistan and Iraq for over a year now. The continuous unreasonably violent striking and blasting of these "BLASPHEMOUS WEAPONS" has reverberate sound, heat vibratory waves along with toxic particles waves in and around the planet. Trembling and shifting underground rock causing earthquakes and atmospheric sudden catastrophic changes by warm toxic winds, rains and snow. The hurricanes that went through Orlando last year and the multiplication of tornados, mudslides, avalanches, floods, sinkholes, volcanoes activation and many other cataclysmic phenomena is also the result of the hateful amount of destructive energy being released by these WEAPONS which in a blasphemous and untruthful manner the United States went to seek in Iraq, but It rather use them there. The Word in the book of Revelation 6:14 says: "And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their place." This is the six seal: "A man made Earthquake-Tsunami has moved the Earth out of its axis and more devastation is coming as a result of the anti-CHRIST actions of War."
Before the 2004 national elections another warning vision was published at www.Aleuzenev.com; it was e-mailed to the general media, and the end section reads like this words; again warning America: "And behold; the night vision was now like a great television screen showing the name: The King of MYSTERY BABYLON the GREAT; then there appeared:
The President of the United States of America; dressed with a tricolor hooded cloak garment of stars. And he had in his head a crown of gold that was melting; and the precious metal was going into his eyes making him blind; and as he walked toward a ceremonial bowl filled with water to clean his eyes; he then tripped his foot against a Stone a tried Stone, a Precious Corner Stone set by the ceremonial bowl that was filled with water. [That STONE represents the Doctrine of JESUS CHRIST of LOVE and MERCY toward our enemies for the creation of PEACE]. The vision continuous...And as he stumbled and fell his right foot got caught into the ceremonial vessel and the water turned to blood. The President was trying desperately to get his foot out of the bowl while his back was against the floor; but his foot was caught in the vessel with his greed and egotistical pride; and he was shaking his foot with anger and the satisfaction of force while on his back; but the ritual kettle was boiling over with the sacrificial blood of multitudes of humans. Poor and innocent soldiers from many nations, poor and innocent civilians from Afghanistan and Iraq; the blood of poor and innocent children, women and elders from all over the World was overflowing along his side. [The last twenty words describe something like the TSUNAMI]. The vision ended... And the Cabinet along with his Republican and Democratic courts, and the Clergy were there by his side; standing on their knees inebriated with the wrath of his wine; as the American ceremonial vessel became a drowning river of blood. And there came on the screen the words: THE LAMENTATION of ABOMINABLE HIPOCRASY."
Today I read:
"And He said unto me, you must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues and Kings." Revelation 10:11. Ivor Manuel prays for you and Peace for the World, prophet of the LORD.

Listen, global warming isnt real. It is a ficticious load of bullocks. If you believe in it you must have the intellectual capacity of a two fingered monkey and the eduction of a sierra leone athlete.
When ice caps melt, the level of the ocean will infact drop due to a decrease of CM30 in the atmosphere, which is a product of rapid freezeing.
To put it simplely there is also large air pockets in the ice which raises a large proportion of the ice above the water without increasing its mass.
So when the ice melts it will reduce in size.

Sounds to me like the professor and the doctor have been relying on the "doctored" research that was edited by the Bush administration recently

...of course that's only my opinion

Yikes, the professor actually has a point. If it were not for the fact that some of this ice is on land and not in the water. But in fact, the melting of the arctic ice cap might not cause a significant rise in sea level because water volume and displacement would balance out.

Dave

Aaaa, if the world is getting hotter, it'll all evaporate anyway, so why worry about sea levels?

Scientists say that oil is about to run out and burning oil is the major contributor to global warming. Looks like the first problem will take care of the second. An oil replacement will become reality when it is economically feasible.

Both will happen without government interference and driven by the capitalist system. People who want more government control will of course use those facts as a fear tactic (sound familiar) to try and give the government more power.

Red, proof of that is that South American countries are now nearly %100 ethanol using, instead of gasoline, which is made made from sugar.

WE could do the same thing with corn, if the oil companies didn't own Bush and both wings of congress.

...but of course that's only my opinion