very good points Tan, it's a thorny matter and I'm not sure wht the answer is. Women do show up for such things a ice skating and gymnastics

Thanks and welcome, I moved this over to Culture because it's more sports than politics

I must disagree that women should not have a pro football league. i think it's one of the best things to happen! I'm in tenth grade and i play for my high school football team. yeah, women are physicaly different and have more risks of getting hurt because of the way we are built, but that should only give us a reason to work harder than the average male or female! i've played football on teams ever since i was 5. last summer was the first time i played on a team being the only girl and with pads... NOT FLAG FOOTBALL!! i started on both sides of the ball, and stood firmly as a line'woman'. i was 15, at 170lbs and 5'5", no one got through! So as far as i'm concerned, girls can do the same as a guy, if not better!

I have nothing but respect for women and how athletic some women are. My article is about how much involved money is in professional sports, and the fact that there isn't much of a market for women's professional sports. I think more people watch the world series of poker on any given night than they watch WNBA games (based on ratings). Doesn't that say it all? I think Mia Hamm is amazing and I don't doubt that women can play football, soccer or any other sport well, the fact is will people want to watch it. And I think the answer is leaning towards 'NO'.

good answer Tan! Very diplomatic

and good for you Tina, congrats!

thanx for the response, however, if more and more people talk about "girl football" enough, then ratings would go up. i mean think about it, who wouldn't want to watch a gurl kick butt? even if it is with other gurls? if they are just as interesting, why wouldn't you watch it? then, just for kicks...eventually women may even begin co-ed nfl!! maybe later than sooner...but eventually. i'm not trying to randomly argue with you, but to merely open your eyes!

I believe the essence of the problem is that people ARE interested in seeing women do athletic things they are as good or better at than men, but much less so things they are not

One. Do women have the right to play sports? Yes. Two. Do women have the right to have form their own leagues to support their play and sports? Yes. Three. Should women form their own leagues to support their play and sports? Maybe. The point of having professional sports leagues is to motivate the most talented players and entertain fans who enjoy the sports. The point isn't to have a league for the sake of having a league. That's the main problem with the WNBA. It was formed for the sake of having a women's pro league and it has been on life support since its inaugural season. A league like the WUSA, which had top notch talent and most importantly, in the international community, world cup success. The WUSA folded, which was tragic, and the fact that the WNBA hasn't tells a lot about the unfairness of what this country calls a success or not. If a women's football league were to survive, it would have to build itself as an alternative to men's football, as opposed to merely a substitute for the game played during other months of the year. That's been a huge problem with the WNBA and recently the XFL. People don't want to see a near replica of a sport they love, just alternatives to it.

hi. I agree with some of the things you say. But...girls should be allowed to play on college and high school teams. At my school my friends play football and the coaches won't let girls even tryout...Girls should be given a fair shot. no matter how weak guys think they are. Women should be given a chance on an actual league...You never know they could do better than some of the guys out there.

I think you guys are so awesome and i agree with everything you say or do!!!!!!! I love you guys and my boyfriends name is Francys

Well I think what we need is female athletes to break through into pro sports. Lots of ppl watch NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL. As much as I love hockey I wouldn't watch a womans-only league. Fans want to know they're team is the best. They want to believe in them. If your team will never be able to play against the Tom Bradys of sports than who cares? You can never prove your the best except by playing against the best. Thank you Tina for proving my brother wrong you're awesome!!

Whatever the solution is, it should be about opportunity. As good as Tina may be, as things stand she will never be able to pursue a football career through college and into the professional leagues. That's sad and wrong, and I wonder how a person who loves the sport they play copes with the harsh fact that, through an accident of biology, she is not going to be able to pursue it.

One of the things women should NOT be doing is playing full-contact football. Anyone who would get some kind of thrill seeing one woman drive her helmet into another woman's gut for a "well done" sack is nuts (pardon the expressions).

Duane, why is that any more 'nuts' than watching men do it?

And BTW, women can and do play rugby, which is a full-contact sport without all those poncy pads and crah helmets.

Dr., my position is indefensible. It's just a gut (haha) reaction that I have when I see women punching each other in the head (boxing), losing all their feminine body fat (runners, weightlifters), selectively breeding down to 4'11" munchkins (gymnastics), and so on. Never had the privilege to watch women's rugby. Sounds dreadful.

As far as men participating in contact sports, well, with the exception of these idiots on steroids, men become more manly, which seems fine, as opposed to women becoming more manly. Is it just me?

The one sport that should be banned (in addition to bullfighting) is boxing, along with its cousin extreme fighting. I get it. I followed pro boxing when I was younger, Ali, Quarry, Frazier, Hilary Swank, Foreman, Tyson, Mr. T, Curly of the Three Stooges ("Moe, Larry, the cheese!"), all the greats. Again, it's just a gut feeling. There's something wrong about paying money to see two guys pound each other in the head.

Yes, duane, it is just you. Those same sentiments have been applied in the past to arguments that women should not drive, vote, be educated, speak without male permission, yada yada...

It comes down to choice and opportunity. If girls like Tina love playing football, boxing or whatever, then they should be able to pursue excellence at it. If that offends the sensibilities of men who prefer their women 'feminine', then tough titty. It's not about them.

Boxing, now - that's another topic entirely. It's going to die off before too long, I reckon, thanks to its own mismanagement and disorganization. It's no longer the sport of kings, the game of Ali and Foreman, Hagler and Spinks. It's become the laughing stock of sports: what are there, eleven separate governing bodies now? Being a 'world' boxing champion today is pretty much meaningless. UFC is knocking traditional boxing - literally and figuratively - out of the ring.

Dr. D.: "Those same sentiments have been applied in the past ...."

Ah, so you would have it that I equate women's basic rights to manliness, and that, therefore, they should have none. Ouch.

There is a world of difference between voting and purposely inflicting abdominal trauma to win the big game, no?

If that offends the sensibilities of men who prefer their women 'feminine', then tough titty. It's not about them.

Good Lord, I feel like I'm being scolded. Tough titty? A Freudian slip? You might have nailed it right there.

I'm not offended Dr. If women want to grow their biceps to the size of a grapefruit, and if they want to screw around with their hormonal balance, great. If they want to lose a few teeth, swell. But it's a misguided application of the principle of 'equality of the sexes.' Men and women are NOT equal physically. That has NOTHING to do with civil rights, right?

Correct. It's not, and never should have been, about women being the same as men. Where would be the fun in that?

In fact, the whole point is that women's sports, though played to broadly the same rule book as men's, are subtly different* to watch due to the physiological and psychological differences between the sexes. If you've watched a women's basketball or soccer game, you'll know what I mean. It's the same sport, but played in a different way - and the spectator likewise can appreciate and enjoy the differences.

Yet another reason why women should not be barred from having the same opportunities as men. Those sports where this is so (and admittedly, there aren't many) are all the richer for it.

(BTW, 'tough titty' was not a Freudian slip but a rather crude British expression which seemed to fit rather well in the context of the discussion!)

_{* Different. Not better. Not worse. Just different.}

OK, Dr. D., I'm sold. So, where can I see women's rugby?

Tough titty is British? OK, so how about this for the national motto:

We're British. Don't Like It? Tough Titty!

I like it, I like it.

As for the women's rugby, well, STM (when he gets back from vacation) can, I'm sure, tell you about that better than I can. Probably tucked away on pay-per-view somewhere...

Also, if you fancy watching it live and want to find out if there's a club near you, go to the USA Rugby website (I'm assuming you're based in the US) for plenty of info about the game at various levels and for both sexes.

Women's rugby?

Internationally, and only among the top teams like England and NZ, it's about the same standard as the top-grade of the local subbies (suburban competition) in Sydney (which is pretty damn good really). Main problem for women's rugby is, rugby is a game where brute strength is key.

It can be pretty to watch when the backs are running the ball around the park, but it doesn't, and can't by definition, have the same firepower and biff and barge up front at the highest levels - which is what makes the game so spectacular.

I notice most of the forwards wear headgear too, probably so they won't get cauliflower ears. Smart ...

But rugby is a wonderful game to play - the game they play in Heaven - at any level of fitness or ability, which is probably why so many women are now playing it.