I didn't know you lived over there 'boy.

It's kind of strange how us Americans think they have any say in how Europe is shaping up now. It's called economic competition on a gobal scale.

Do you know anything more about that escape clause? That sounds like a weakness if it's too easy.

and 3 .. 2 .. 1 ...

As I understand it the escape clause is ironclad. If you want to secede then you can and that's it.

The reason people are upset with the new Constitution - aside from those who don't like losing their veto - isn't actually the constitution itself, it's the EU as an entity.

A number of countries in Europe - even France - seem to be coming to the realization that socialism is destroying their economies and they don't want to be dragged down by the other countries in the EU which are mired in that sort of government. In addition, there's a lot of concern about the drain which eastern European members will place on the EU as a whole and which the larger and wealthier EU nations will have to foot the bill for.

This is all explained in my somewhat more comprehensive post on the EU Constitution

Dave

Dave: my post was on the European constitution; the bulk of your response riffs on Socialism in Europe. Different topic, no?

It is no secret that uniting Europe will cost money in the short term - just look at ANY merger, there are always costs involved - the judgement is that it's worth it.

And from your lengthy-but-not-comprehensive post, "Countries like Britain and the Netherlands have to be asking themselves why they should be involved with the EU, when unlike more and more of the other members, they have a growing GDP a healthy and self-sufficient economy and no real need for EU help with trade and finance or much of anything else."

A simple question, why?

It would be just as "logical" to ask why don't California or Texas should be involved with the United States? Either one meets your criteria of self-sufficiency and self-reliance.

The fact is that Europe IS going to unite and whether one more or less state gets involved isn't going to stop that.

The only really important question is are countries like the UK going to get involved and improve the European proposition or are they going to wander around believing they "could have been a contender."

It also seriously puzzles me how British opponents of a more unified Europe always bleat on about the loss of sovereignty, when they already live in a country with pooled sovereignty and usually champion the American model, which is also a pooled sovereign state, but on a federal rather than monarchic basis...

I really truly do not understand talk of lost identity.

Nobody claims New York has lost it's identity by being joined with a whole bunch of other US states with which it has very little in common.

And nobody, except possibly Arnie, would want to see California as an independent nation would they? This despite the fact that it would be one of the top 10 world economies in its own right...

And nobody, except possibly Arnie, would want to see California as an independent nation would they?

Hell yes, I would!

>>Dave: my post was on the European constitution; the bulk of your response riffs on Socialism in Europe. Different topic, no?<<

Absolutely not a different topic. I've got another article on this coming up. The basic problem is that the European Constitution is a highly socialist, anti-capitalist document. England was able to work in some business protections, but basically the system assumes major government control and regulation of business. The problem with this is that during the recent recession both France and Germany - England already knew this - realized that their socialist restrictions on capitalism were killing their economies with high unemployment, little or no GDP growth and massive declines in productivity. The EU wants to lock them into that failed mode of operation and they desperately want out.

And if you check my post again, the main thrust was that immigration and the relative poverty of Eastern Europe are concerns for the countries which are having second thoughts, and that's true too.

Dave

ahem

Hey JR, like your site. Has Arnie said anything on the subject?

Dave: The most important issues re the ECEC (sic) are summarised in 3 lines in my original post. I fail to see anything socialist about them.

I think we'll find a way to manage our immigration and poverty issues, thank you very much. How are you guys doing with yours? Msybe we can help you out...

>>I think we'll find a way to manage our immigration and poverty issues, thank you very much. How are you guys doing with yours? Msybe we can help you out...<<

Well, our unemployment is lower, our GDP is enormously higher, our productivity is much higher, and our REAL unemployment, as calculated from working population so that it represents those who've given up on work alltogether is less than a third that of most major European nations (about 13% vs. about 40%). So that means we aren't being crushed under the burden of a massive welfare state. Oh, and we also have massively better healthcare available to most of our population, including the poor.

Dave

Nalle, I think you just fell into Alienboy's logic trap. If the US can manage somewhat imperfectly on immigration, then the EU can too. That's the strength in numbers thing I believe they're going for.

Europeans are generally happier and healthier. Go figure. I like America plenty, but I'm not sold that it's the best model to live under. Yet, we're alsways seeking to improve. That's what the EU is doing. It's competition on a global scale and therefore, quickly America is not going to be objective on this.

>>Nalle, I think you just fell into Alienboy's logic trap. If the US can manage somewhat imperfectly on immigration, then the EU can too. That's the strength in numbers thing I believe they're going for.<<

But we don't have the immigration related problems they seem to have - such as massive racism against the immigrant groups and the immigrants going on welfare almost immediately and becoming a drain on the economy. Whatever the shortcomings of our welfare coverage, one of the good parts is that it doesn't include illegal immigrants so they kind of have to be productive if they want to live.

>>Europeans are generally happier and healthier.<<

Europeans I know aren't happy at all. They feel oppressed and put upon and ignored by massive governmental bureaucracies. As for healthier, see my earlier article on this subject.

>>Go figure. I like America plenty, but I'm not sold that it's the best model to live under. <<

I'm sure improvements could be made after all these years of screwing the system up - but I have yet to see any other existing system that worked better.

>>Yet, we're alsways seeking to improve. That's what the EU is doing. It's competition on a global scale and therefore, quickly America is not going to be objective on this.<<

One of the ways that EU members may find it easiest to improve their systems is to get out of the EU.

Dave

funny how some folk
are in the groove but then
some are in a rut





haiku!

NOt all Europeans are happy, at least not the Germans I speak with. THere are some nice things about the pace of life in Europe that are really great, but if the economy continues to downward spiral, it will be much less pleasant.

European stereotypes: Germans like to complain a lot. Germany is still the richest eurozone by far.

Still, it will be great when they recover from their spectacularly badly managed re-unification and their economy picks up again. That will be good for all of Europe and the wider world.

Actually, Alienboy the Germans have a lot to complain about right now. Their government has utterly failed them, their healthcare system is a disaster, their unemployment is skyrocketing and they have a negative GDP. Those are not good things. From what I can tell they're in the worst shape of the major European nations and their leadership is the most lacking in the willingness to make the changes they need to prosper again.

Dave

You all defined happiness in economic terms. That's the difference right there.

Yes Dave, you are right. Everything in Europe socialist, thus bad and America is the place to be. I think we need a Texan to come over and save us.

But will you please stop mistaking opinions for facts and get the whole causality thing a little bit straighter.

Thanks

B.