Blogcritics: Comments on Outsourcing isn't so Bad

Comment by RJ

Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:03:39 EDT

Me: "Because I have always worked" Beaker Harpo: "so you are trying to imply that i have not?" Beaker Harpo: "the ONLY work available in my field was temp agency stuff that paid LESS than i was getting from collecting my unemployment insurance" Not implying. Pointing it out...

Comment by gonzo marx

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:07:34 EDT

well Dave...thank you for clearly delineating where we stand in future Discussion with this little statement.. Dave sez.. *Of course there's more, there's always the drug dealing and the money laundering... ....or were the arcades of my youth not typical?* let us just say i am not "typical" in this case....whether it was in my time as "outlaw" or now as a "citizen"..i refuse to be part of ANY "gang"...biker, underground or political Party i'm funny like that... that you would even make the implications you have with that statement bothers me slightly and now defines our Discourse for the sake fo Clarity on this one subject..the arcade business makes most fo it's money on the "ticket games" folks spend $10 on getting $2 worth of tickets to redeem for "prizes" that are bought wholesale for less than they appear...what is being sold is the "entertainment" value of playing the games..the prize is an added bonus to the customer to encourage them to come back, and to serve as a reminder of how much "fun" they had or souveneir purposes.. as far as the other types of games...video games need to give the Plyer what they cannot get at home on their "playstations"..and NO simulator can touch the feel of a real pinball machine to afficianado's.. ti is up to the Operator to keep his "attractions" current and exiting to the Players...hence how many of the "store" type locations are adding LAN's to their attractions thus endeth the Lesson on the arcade business... Dave sez.. * not to try to patch the hulls of the sinking ship of a late industrial age economy.* this is one of those points where we will just have to disagree.. i still think it is Important to not only our Economy , but to our National security to MAKE things in this country, to DO research and development of new technologies and industries, control resources and products within our own borders... if we don't make steel, then where do we get it in case of National Emergency if we need to build tanks? if we don't build the best in electronics and computers..where is our edge in aerospace and other defense capabilities? doesn't it bother you that the next Marine One helicopter the President will fly in will NOT be made by an american company?...just one example of what i mean i fully understand that there needs to be a middle ground between Protectionism and complete Offshoring...but i contend that what improves the bottom line for multi-national companies and foreign Interests is NOT neccesarily in our National Interest... nuff said Excelsior!

Comment by Dave Nalle

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:15:13 EDT

>>Dave sez.. *Had the Playstation been invented prior to the time you took this job? If so, then it was a doomed job.* not really Dave...remember when i said i had owned my own business for 8 years? it was an arcade on the Jersey shore..<< Damn, how Norman Rockwell. >>there is more to the business than just video games...and i'm not going to get into a lesson on how it works<< Of course there's more, there's always the drug dealing and the money laundering... ....or were the arcades of my youth not typical? >>my point is we can know what the DOLLAR value fo that deficit is...how much comes in, how much goes out..simple equation not matter how many are in the Variable..that's all..<< No we can't know. The diversity and globalization of industries has made it impossible to track all of the financial exchanges which used to make up the balance of trade. It's not just how much goes out and how much comes in anymore - or if you do track that info, it's not a complete picture of the balance of trade by a long shot. >>we are going to have to just not agree on this one..i side with American jobs and the needs of the citizens<< So do I, Gonzo. >>i won't even speculate why you take the positions you do...<< I can help with that. I think that the best way to create jobs and keep people working is to develop a modern, growing economy, not to try to patch the hulls of the sinking ship of a late industrial age economy. Dave

Comment by Bryan McKay

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:09:20 EDT

The problem with outsourcing isn't simply its effect on the American economy - this is a rather one-sided view of the issue. What we need to be looking at is the ultimate effect that this has on the economy of the nations America is outsourcing to. India, for example, receives many outsourcing jobs from America, in fields as disparate as manufacturing and labor, technical and IT support, and computer programming. What this does, however, is make their jobs dependent on the American economy. If the company outsourcing jobs to India goes bankrupt, then all the Indians working for this American company are out of a job too. Much of the world, but particularly America, is bent on this idea of a "global economy" when often it is better for a country to retain a level of economic independence. It is extraordinarily important for a country have the ability to be mainly self-sufficient. This may sound like an isolationist policy, but understand that I'm not advocating an entirely hands-off role. To see what can happen when a country loses this self-sufficiency, look at Stephanie Black's extraordinary documentary, Life and Debt. I don't believe anyone who is in favor of outsourcing with the argument that it is good for the economy of the insourcing nation. If they only wanted to help build the other nation's economy, maybe they could be working towards dismantling - or at least restructuring - the IMF and the World Bank. Outsourcing is just a form of neo-colonization that won't benefit either the outsourcer or the insourcer in the long run.

Comment by gonzo marx

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:39:13 EDT

Dave sez.. *Had the Playstation been invented prior to the time you took this job? If so, then it was a doomed job.* not really Dave...remember when i said i had owned my own business for 8 years? it was an arcade on the Jersey shore.. there is more to the business than just video games...and i'm not going to get into a lesson on how it works the closing of those stores was a decision by the Owner of the chain, due to many factors..completely understandable...but that business isn't "doomed" by quite a ways as to your Opinion on doomed industry and not being able to track the "impact" of a trade eficit..well..tracking the impact is one thing my point is we can know what the DOLLAR value fo that deficit is...how much comes in, how much goes out..simple equation not matter how many are in the Variable..that's all.. we are going to have to just not agree on this one..i side with American jobs and the needs of the citizens i won't even speculate why you take the positions you do... Excelsior! as i had said..i took it for it's convenience at the time

Comment by andy marsh

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 06:52:29 EDT

gonzo - who needs mags when you have the internet!

Comment by Dave Nalle

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 04:18:36 EDT

>>really..so $20 bucks an hour, benefits and a flexible schedule in your first year are a doomed job?<< Had the Playstation been invented prior to the time you took this job? If so, then it was a doomed job. Dave

Comment by gonzo marx

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 02:27:33 EDT

heh..so you are trying to imply that i have not? i have worked since i was 13 years old..as well as served 4 years in the military..i'm 43 now, in the interest of full disclosure..and did own my own business for 9 years for 6 weeks out of the 7 months i was looking for my next full time job, i did collect on the maine state insurance i paid into for 7 years(in this state...not counting the 12 in NJ after the military)...then found stuff to pay the bills... so spare me your bullshit , boy...i feel no guilt collecting a small fraction of what i put in...and have long since repaid back into the system... now, tell your mommy good night and go back to abusing yourself whiel turnign the sticky pages of that Victoria's Secret catalogue...someday you will be able to reach the counter and buy the mags with the totally nude pictures in them... Excelsior!

Comment by RJ

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 02:20:34 EDT

Thank me the next time your collect unemployment "insurance"... Cuz, you know, I've never gone there. Because I have always worked, and paid my taxes...

Comment by gonzo marx

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:39:46 EDT

really..so $20 bucks an hour, benefits and a flexible schedule in your first year are a doomed job? it was meant for what it was..something temporary and convenient...i ALWAYS have work on the side design, maintenence and repair of hi-def home theatre systems, teaching gung fu..getting paid to beta test software currently i repair and give tech support to various telecom's (AT&T,QWEST,Level3 and some others) concerning thier line management systems and line locating devices... ya know what..it pays about the same..the benefits are a little better, and i don't get to drive all over new england on the company's dime...much less it being as much fun as designing and administrating the gaming LAN's or servers... but my mortgage gets paid now, when you move out of mommy's basement...we will talk again...k? Excelsior!

Comment by RJ

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:32:54 EDT

>>my personal situation was working as a technician for an arcade chain...<< Now there's the definition of a doomed job. LOL! Try 7-11...

Comment by Dave Nalle

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:29:42 EDT

Temp, when did I ever say I trusted government VNR promotions? I don't trust self-serving press releases from private companies either. I just don't see a difference between self-serving shillery from a government department and from a private company. It's not that I'm naive enough to trust the VNRs, it's that I'm cynical enough not to care. Dave

Comment by Temple Stark

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:23:50 EDT

>>If the government had any idea what it was doing would we have these bigass budget deficits? And yet you are naive enough to trust government VNR promotions? (not information, PR). I'm editing music reviews. Why are you here?

Comment by Dave Nalle

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 01:16:44 EDT

>>yes Dave...i CAN boil it down to that..it's merely a matter of SCALE...the difference between a single transaction and a billion such transactions are merely numbers.. any chimp with a calculator can add the digits...now imagnie..dare i say it..computers!! the problem is made more complex by trick bookkeeping etc..(can you say Enron and Worldcomm..i knew ya could)<< No No No, one thousand times NO! The trade deficit results from an attempt to measure the balance of trade in and out of the country when to modern corporations national boundries simply have no meaning at all. How do you calculte the impact on the balance of trade of the dealings of a corporation with factories in 20 countries selling product to retail outlets all over the world? How do you figure the trade value of companies who trade in other companies, or in purely paper assets or in information? These are larger and larger parts of our economy. Just like the old industry which is increasingly irrelevant in the modern world, the idea of a balance of trade or being able to measure it is just meaningless. If we were still just a country which shipped out agriculture and imported manufactured goods, then we could believe in the trade deficit. But our economy isn't anything like that anymore. >>the stock market seems to have no difficulty keeping track of thesethings with decent accuracy fo rtheir predictions and such...actuarial tables still work, no matter the size of the Variables<< All the stock market does is track the buying and selling of stock. That's nothing compared to the complexity of a multinational economy. >>my personal situation was working as a technician for an arcade chain...<< Now there's the definition of a doomed job. >>why did it take so long for me to find other work...simple..the ONLY work available in my field was temp agency stuff that paid LESS than i was getting from collecting my unemployment insurance...so i taught some private gung fu lessons and other odd cash jobs to make up the difference until i found the job i have now<< So you chose to be unemployed rather than take a pay cut. It's a choice a lot of people make and not unreasoanble. Not everyone has the confidence or luxury to do it, of course. >>since so much of th estate's industry has either closed it's doors or been offshored, many skilled workers are now holding one or two jobs in the "service" industry that pay a fraction of what they were making in Industrial carreers<< Clearly you live in a different part of Maine from where we spend our time. But my impression is that even 30 years ago Portland and Augusta were pretty depressed areas, and they doesn't seem noticably worse today. >>hings have changed quite a lot in the last 20 years..and you KNOW it..how many times have we discussed Industry leaving this country..20 years ago you could make a good living for your family working for a local Company actually MAKING something...not any more..those jobs in the "heavy industry" sector that you have such disdain for have been offshored and outsourced..<< You don't have to make something in a factory to make a good living. There are plenty of jobs in micro-factories, specialized craft industries and entirely new higher tech industries to employ the people who used to work in heavy industry. Just because the structure of our economy changes that doesn't mean the overall result is negative. >>but you haven't been in that market for 20 years...so what does it matter to you, eh?<< But I do care, Gonzo. I'm a regular care bear. Plus I have kids who'll have to get jobs eventually, and I know plenty of people who haven't exactly found employment nirvana yet. Dave

Comment by gonzo marx

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:54:59 EDT

Dave sez.. *Yes, but the national balance of trade isn't representative of a single business. You can't compare our entire national economic structure to balancing your checkbook, good lord. If it were THAT simple we could solve all our problems in a year.* yes Dave...i CAN boil it down to that..it's merely a matter of SCALE...the difference between a single transaction and a billion such transactions are merely numbers.. any chimp with a calculator can add the digits...now imagnie..dare i say it..computers!! the problem is made more complex by trick bookkeeping etc..(can you say Enron and Worldcomm..i knew ya could) the stock market seems to have no difficulty keeping track of thesethings with decent accuracy fo rtheir predictions and such...actuarial tables still work, no matter the size of the Variables Dave sez.. *According to the BLS there were no layoffs or downsizings in Maine in 2003 and the average time to find a new job was less than a month. But I guess they can't track everything.* my personal situation was working as a technician for an arcade chain...the economy forced them to close half their stores in the New ngland area...they went form 3 technicians to two..i was the newest person... why did it take so long for me to find other work...simple..the ONLY work available in my field was temp agency stuff that paid LESS than i was getting from collecting my unemployment insurance...so i taught some private gung fu lessons and other odd cash jobs to make up the difference until i found the job i have now since so much of th estate's industry has either closed it's doors or been offshored, many skilled workers are now holding one or two jobs in the "service" industry that pay a fraction of what they were making in Industrial carreers Dave sez.. *But I did do my time dealing with the reality and I don't think the basic dynamics have changed in the 20 years* ya should have put the period after "think" things have changed quite a lot in the last 20 years..and you KNOW it..how many times have we discussed Industry leaving this country..20 years ago you could make a good living for your family working for a local Company actually MAKING something...not any more..those jobs in the "heavy industry" sector that you have such disdain for have been offshored and outsourced.. but you haven't been in that market for 20 years...so what does it matter to you, eh? Dave sez.. *If the government had any idea what it was doing would we have these bigass budget deficits?* on that statement we have total Agreement.. the big difference is that it is YOUR GOP that is running the government so poorly and that is what i am ranting about so we agree that they are doing quite the shitty job of it nice... Excelsior!

Comment by Dave Nalle

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:33:56 EDT

>>call me simplistic...red ink , black ink balance just like i did in my own business, and just like i have to do my checkbook<< Yes, but the national balance of trade isn't representative of a single business. You can't compare our entire national economic structure to balancing your checkbook, good lord. If it were THAT simple we could solve all our problems in a year. The balance of trade represents millions of business transactions, from buying a pair of socks at Wal Mart to buying an sheet metal plant in Indonesia. There are so many transactions happening some in the country, some out of the country, and many in a vague commercial limbo, that you can't simplify it and you can't pin it down, and increasingly the relatively crude numbers we put together and call a trade deficit just don't make any sense. >>as for your coming up to maine..have you looked for work up here in the last 5 years?<< No, I take work with me wherever I go. But Maine does have unemployment right at the minimum possibl level, at around 4.1%. Unemployment can't get much lower than that. >>company downsized me out of a job in october '03....7 months later of constant searching found me another<< According to the BLS there were no layoffs or downsizings in Maine in 2003 and the average time to find a new job was less than a month. But I guess they can't track everything. >>so you enjoy the insulation of being in the tax bracket that can afford a nice summer home just for vacations...<< Only because we rent it out enough to pay the incredibly insane property taxes and maintenance expenses. >>but don't piss down your leg on me and tell me it's good cuz it's "trickle down" when you aren;t out there having to deal with the ramifications of yoru economic "theory" while a majority of this countries citizens deal with the reality...<< But I did do my time dealing with the reality and I don't think the basic dynamics have changed in the 20 years since I was earning $600 a month plus another $300 or so from a second part time job. >>the trade deficit and budget deficit numbers i cite are from the government itself...sorry if that screws up your theories...but i tend of think of it like my checkbook..<< If the government had any idea what it was doing would we have these bigass budget deficits? Dave

Comment by gonzo marx

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:20:15 EDT

OMG...except for one HUGE and glaring Omission to your little fairy tale we don't MANUFACTURE ANY goods to sell them... and what little we do..they can make for themselves.. so, what can we sell them...movies?...software to run on those IBM computers they will be building nope..their lack of protection for INtellectual Property laws means that as soon as they buy ONE COPY of ANTYHING..they will reproduce it by the millions and we will see NOTHING now go back to your history class RJ...and study China.. at NO TIME in written history did ANYONE out-patient, or out wait the Middle Kingdoms the longer it goes on and the more of our National Debt their Central Bank owns how long before they call the Mortgage due? remember how the "patience" game work out for the British with Hong Kong i am hoping we can avoid the cosmic Irony of winning the war against Russian Communism...only to lose by being bought and paid for by the Heirs of Mao "ponder that upon the Tree of Woe" Thulsa Doom Excelsior!

Comment by RJ

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:16:08 EDT

"now run along and go back to pulling the wings off flies, or whatever it is you do to relax...." Cute, but my question remains unanswered...

Comment by RJ

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:13:28 EDT

A lot of the trade deficit is with Red China. But if we put any sort of import barriers in place, we run the risk of them dropping the dollar and their American holdings ASAP, which would have a massive negative impact on our economy. And if we institute tarriffs on their products? The WTO will hit us with a huge fine. So, our options re: Red China are limited. But there is a context to this situation. The Red Chinese export cheap shit, like plastic toys and cotton T-shirts. It is no longer profitable for us to manufacture these products domestically, and the Red Chinese have an enormous virtual slave-labor force to produce these items. So we buy their cheap shit in order to save a buck or two. Fair enough. But we sell products overseas as well. But Red China, despite its 1.3 billion population, does not have a large enough middle class to buy a large enough number of American products to offset the trade imbalance. But, if they continue to thrive economically, they probably will in the relatively near future. And THEN we can sell those NON-CHEAP products to their consumers, and narrow the trade gap. It's a waiting game. Be patient.

Comment by gonzo marx

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:09:19 EDT

RJ sez.. *And yet, we shouldn't drill in ANRW, or in the Gulf of Mexico, right?* ANWR is a National Park...and thus a special case...don't ya think? if you go back and read the discussion between Dave Nalle and myself in the Thread on that topic..you swill see that he and i came to various agreements how it could be feasible there... the Gulf of Mexico is another case in point..and we drill there already...add to that the fact that you will NOT be able to find ANY time that i ever said anything about it anywhere... now run along and do your Homework before ya try and get into it with me... i'm more than happy to discuss the Facts and Issues with you RJ...but this kind of bullshit dittohead attack ain't gonna fly... i am mildly flattered that you feel so threatened by my little rantings that you would make the feeble attempt... now run along and go back to pulling the wings off flies, or whatever it is you do to relax.... that was a joke, BTW...no need to get yer panties in a twist... {8^P~~~~~~~~~~~~ Excelsior!

Comment by RJ

Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:02:40 EDT

"the Trade Defecit is growing at just under 2 billion dollars a day... "7 days a week, 365 a year.. "that is an average of various sources..as usual..i erred on the conservative side" Gee, and I wonder how much of that deficit is oil? And yet, we shouldn't drill in ANRW, or in the Gulf of Mexico, right?

Comment by gonzo marx

Sat, 9 Apr 2005 03:29:19 EDT

Dave sez... *Yes, they're not interested in the trade deficit. They think it's meaningless.* that sums up yer whole ranting..i contend it IS important call me simplistic...red ink , black ink balance just like i did in my own business, and just like i have to do my checkbook we will just have to disagree as for your coming up to maine..have you looked for work up here in the last 5 years? i have only been here for 9 years...living 365....first came up and found a decent job..at lower wages than i would have liked, but paid the bills..in about a week left it due to health problems 4 years later...took abotu a week and a half to find another, paid about the same as what i made after leaving the first...but was closer to my specialty in electronics.. company downsized me out of a job in october '03....7 months later of constant searching found me another that 7 month span gave me quite a bit of time to learn the market up here quite the education so you enjoy the insulation of being in the tax bracket that can afford a nice summer home just for vacations... i know the world looks differently from there...i am happy for you and yours, and am certain you earned it but don't piss down your leg on me and tell me it's good cuz it's "trickle down" when you aren;t out there having to deal with the ramifications of yoru economic "theory" while a majority of this countries citizens deal with the reality... when you try and get into Enron style accounting of things with statements like *Like I said, the entire model for the trade deficit is archaic and doesn't count the right things or even know how to measure them.* i say..red ink..black ink the trade deficit and budget deficit numbers i cite are from the government itself...sorry if that screws up your theories...but i tend of think of it like my checkbook.. hope that helps explain my point of view...your comments certanily helped me understand yours... Excelsior!

Comment by Dave Nalle

Sat, 9 Apr 2005 03:13:31 EDT

>>Dave sez.. *In Maine tourism, pharmaceutical manufacturing and small businesses abound and there is virtually no unemployment.* boy..you gotta come up here and see for yourself..that's all i can say here...<< Gonzo, I own a house in Maine and come up there for at least a month every year and have for almost 40 years. >>no matter what the state's statistics tell you..let me clue you in..folks have 2 crappy jobs instead of one good one they used to have...and many of the unemployed have fallen off th escreen once their benefits ran out..2 or 3 years ago...<< Not according to BLS statistics. Not only do they show virtually no unemployment, but they also show a workforce deficit for the state, no layoffs, no business closings, and those unemployed who've fallen off the unemployment rolls are few and far between. You may live in a weird pocket of depression in an otherwise booming state. >>i still say bullshit..<< You can say it all you want, but it doesn't make it so. >>there are Makers, Takers and Fakers.. i know you think poorly of manufacturing jobs...but they DO pay better than service industry work...and give us something to actually export<< I don't think poorly of manufacturing jobs. I think poorly of heavy industry jobs. Not the same thing. I'm all for specialized manufacturing and micro-factories. >>think there might be a link to the fall of manufacturing and the rise of the Trade Defecit? i do...we don't make anything to trade anymore<< The US has ALWAYS been a nation of consumers. These days we trade in information, business leadership, intellectual property and corporate capitalization. The things we produce the most of today are almost impossible to measure in the context of the traditional balance of trade. The whole idea of counting the dollar value of material goods going in and out of the country is totally archaic. We import material goods, but our exports are immaterial - knowledge, personnel, expertise and business itself. When we build a factory in Indonesia, that's exportation of the capital and business expertise that America produces. But that's not figured into the balance of trade, nor are the profits corporations bring back from overseas ventures. But when the products of that factory are brought back into the country they're counted against us in figuring the balance of trade. >>as for *you can still buy American*...go ahead..spend a day or so..there was just a nice documentary on this one..shop around for 100 items that you will use (not food tho), and then take a peek where it comes from..<< I only do this on the one day a week where I speak entirely in anglo saxon vocabulary without any latin, french or other foreign words. >>the Trade Defecit is growing at just under 2 billion dollars a day... 7 days a week, 365 a year..<< Like I said, the entire model for the trade deficit is archaic and doesn't count the right things or even know how to measure them. >>fine ..c.all me what ya like..but while the Republicans have a totalitarian lock on things for the last 5 years...THEY are who i blame for going form budget surplus to record defecits...as well as failed "fast track" trade agreements that have INCREASED the trade deficit each and ever day<< The trade agreements are theoretically designed to enable the growth of US power in the international economy. The more our international economy grows, the less of it shows on the books of the domestic economy. >>as for Trade..that failure goes back long before 2000, i just point out that it has gotten much worse and has NOT been even addressed by the Regime<< Yes, they're not interested in the trade deficit. They think it's meaningless. >>but for you to not even admit there IS a problem in these areas, and to spout the corporate bullshit about how "everything is gettin gbetter" shows you are about as out of touch with average folks as Bush senior was when he didn't know the price of a gallon of milk<< I need to see some evidence that things aren't getting better before I change my mind. >>good for you...mind if some of the rest of us try and make our positions a bit better?<< That's what's driven our success so far, so go to it. Dave

Comment by gonzo marx

Sat, 9 Apr 2005 01:47:28 EDT

Dave sez.. *In Maine tourism, pharmaceutical manufacturing and small businesses abound and there is virtually no unemployment.* boy..you gotta come up here and see for yourself..that's all i can say here... no matter what the state's statistics tell you..let me clue you in..folks have 2 crappy jobs instead of one good one they used to have...and many of the unemployed have fallen off th escreen once their benefits ran out..2 or 3 years ago... 2 of those "specialty" furniture makers..including one of the oldest from Pennsylvania are now moving their businesses to vietnam, good workers, cheap labor as for *By getting rid of low-paying jobs in marginal manufacturing industries those states have made the transition to higher paying, more specialized industries and increased both wages and employment.* i still say bullshit.. there are Makers, Takers and Fakers.. i know you think poorly of manufacturing jobs...but they DO pay better than service industry work...and give us something to actually export think there might be a link to the fall of manufacturing and the rise of the Trade Defecit? i do...we don't make anything to trade anymore as for *you can still buy American*...go ahead..spend a day or so..there was just a nice documentary on this one..shop around for 100 items that you will use (not food tho), and then take a peek where it comes from.. while you thijnk abou tthat, here's todays figure to chew on.. the Trade Defecit is growing at just under 2 billion dollars a day... 7 days a week, 365 a year.. that is an average of various sources..as usual..i erred on the conservative side that is my concern....our jobs and the various Defecits...in our budget, and in our Trade balance but i'm the "leftist" eh? fine ..c.all me what ya like..but while the Republicans have a totalitarian lock on things for the last 5 years...THEY are who i blame for going form budget surplus to record defecits...as well as failed "fast track" trade agreements that have INCREASED the trade deficit each and ever day as for Trade..that failure goes back long before 2000, i just point out that it has gotten much worse and has NOT been even addressed by the Regime i can agree to disagree with you , Dave..on how to go about solving some of this..as well as some of the details here and there.. but for you to not even admit there IS a problem in these areas, and to spout the corporate bullshit about how "everything is gettin gbetter" shows you are about as out of touch with average folks as Bush senior was when he didn't know the price of a gallon of milk good for you...mind if some of the rest of us try and make our positions a bit better? Excelsior!

Comment by Dave Nalle

Sat, 9 Apr 2005 01:31:24 EDT

>>let us take the textile industry for example..is is nice to save $1 on buying a shirt at wal-mart...yes<< Never having bought a piece of clothing at Wal-Mart I wouldn't know. I haven't noticed that their prices are enough lower than other sources for clothing that it makes it worth shopping there for that sort of thing. >>unless you are one of the thousands of workers in Maine or South Carolina etc..that lost their decent job in the textile factories that are now in china and are working at wal-mart for 40- 60 per cent less than they made in the factory...<< If you wanted those textile mills in the US to keep operating the first step was to insure the survival of slavery and then the next would have been to protect child labor. The textile mills priced themselves out of the market, largely because of the work of unions. But those former textile workers and their descendents aren't working in Wal Mart. In South Carolina they're working in specialty furniture factories, the tourist industry and other specialized manufacturing. In Maine tourism, pharmaceutical manufacturing and small businesses abound and there is virtually no unemployment. By getting rid of low-paying jobs in marginal manufacturing industries those states have made the transition to higher paying, more specialized industries and increased both wages and employment. >>call me silly..but i say BUY AMERICAN...the job you save could be yours..<< BTW, you can indeed still buy American. There are lots of companies manufacturing clothing here in the US, they're just making more unique, more specialized items. Dave