Blogcritics Comments on Whither Integration?

Comment by Dave Nalle on Whither Integration?

Sun, 6 Feb 2005 01:22:18 EST

From your lips to the publics ears, Ski. But that's not the way people think yet. Dave

Comment by SFC SKI on Whither Integration?

Sat, 5 Feb 2005 05:01:23 EST

Semantics, but more than that. I understand the meaning and use of the term, but it is a misnomer, discrimination is discrimination. The term "Reverse" makes it clear which direction the discrimination goes, but does that part matter? It is still discrimination, and if more people so it all as discrimination without qualifiers, maybe it would be a step towards ending discrimination.

Comment by Dave Nalle on Whither Integration?

Sat, 5 Feb 2005 04:32:08 EST

Reverse Discrimination is when a policy which is designed to eliminate perceived discrimination against one group does so by discriminating against another specific group instead. It's when you have 100 free slots in a law school class and reject otherwise qualified members of one specific ethnic group to make room for less qualified members of another specific ethnic group. The reason it is so heinous is that in most cases there is no actual specific act of discrimination being addressed. No one is being singled out for rejection because of race, there is only an assumption that low admissions of a particular group are the result of discrimination rather than other factors - such as members of that group simply choosing not to apply to that particular school, perhaps because there is another regional university which is viewed as more culturally compatible or inherently easier to get into, or in a better location or some other reason. Dave

Comment by SFC SKi on Whither Integration?

Sat, 5 Feb 2005 04:30:09 EST

Technically, you are correct, but the fact that we can come up with and use the term "reverse discrimination" just shows you how convoluted the problems of race are.

Comment by HW Saxton on Whither Integration?

Sat, 5 Feb 2005 02:02:54 EST

Aw C'mon now, will somebody please tell me WTF is "Reverse Discrimination"? That is the most oxymoronic term I have ever heard used recently besides maybe the term: "Reality Television". I know what message you are trying to convey but, that term just does not work to describe it.

Comment by SFC SKI on Whither Integration?

Sat, 5 Feb 2005 01:23:58 EST

Thanks, I can be trained.

Comment by Aaman on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:45:00 EST

Good post, DietDoc - even if the horrendous history of the human race so far leads most to fear the tyranny of the majority ever again. In India, for example, post- Independence, a conscious policy of reservations and preferential treatment for the hitherto underprivileged and backward classes, and electoral dynamics has meant a cosseted, privileged class, who, often enough abuse these privileges to get into colleges, etc. at the cost of other, perhaps more intelligent students. It is legally a crime in India to question the policy of reservations (reservations ~= affirmative action) - a policy that was intend by the framers of our constitution as a temporary measure, until social conditions improved, which they have, yet the policy persists. Dr Pat, send him an email - your html is converted not quite as you intended

Comment by DrPat on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:39:01 EST

Damnit! Sorry, SFC SKI, I forgot the posting engine here converts characters. You'll have to remove the extra spaces on either side of the "<" and ">" characters instead: < a href="YOUR URL HERE" target="new"/ >linked words< /a > < a href="YOUR URL HERE">linked words< /a > I hope that comes across...

Comment by DrPat on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:35:08 EST

SFC SKI: Try this (you can cut-and-paste): linked words The "target=" switch opens the result in a new window, instead of replacing the contents of the current window. For the simpler same-window option, use: linked words

Comment by SFC SKI on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:27:53 EST

Funny that this article shows up, from Instapundit:http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2005-01-26/news/feature_print.html# (One day I will learn HTML formatting, I promise) The article is not really about race per se, but this quote struck me as very pertinent to our discussion here: " ...the college was "very ethnically Balkanized, very separated, particularistic. Every group and department was only interested in themselves, what they were doing. There were lines of difference within all the units -- different Asian groups, different Latino groups -- but there was very little appreciation of the commonalities that people might have. " On a larger scale, that is the danger we face if we as Americans choose to divide along racial lines, again, a fine line between celebrating one's heritage and bigotry.

Comment by SFC SKI on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:54:23 EST

Ron, you are right on both counts; SFC and this,I think, if we started thinking about our country more as "a cause" in and of itself, we might start feeling that same "esprit de nation." Ain't always pretty, ain't perfect, needs some work, but still worth supporting and building, not tearing down. I am well aware that the US has a major issue with race, but here is a big difference between a media outlet for a specific group and a club that says you can't come in because you aren't like us. It is sometimes a very fine line between the two.

Comment by Diet Doc on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:28:53 EST

Damned dyslexia! Previously posted: "And the sooner we start bitching and howling..." Meant to say: "And the sooner we stop bitching and howling..."

Comment by Diet Doc on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:19:57 EST

SFC Ski writes: "One great thing about the military is that it forces people to live and work together. No, it is not perfect, but it is integrated for the most part, and that constant interaction can open up communication, can make the other seem a bit more familiar and human, and that is a key to eliminating racism." Reply: I am going to assume - I know, bad move - SFC stands for Sargent First Class? Ski, having spent 12 years in the Army myself, I gotta agree with your statement. I loved my time in the Army. There was no black and white, or brown, or any other color. My boss and direct supervisor was a great Colonel (who just happended to be a black man). We were just guys working for our country. A lot of bonds and friendships which last even today (15 years later). I think, if we started thinking about our country more as "a cause" in and of itself, we might start feeling that same "esprit de nation." I would like to think so. As I said in the BLOG, we ARE really in this thing together. And the sooner we start bitching and howling at each other and work toward solutions together, the better. Else, I fear for our nation and its safety. Cheers, Ron

Comment by Eric Olsen on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:31:35 EST

on the individual level, absolutely, and that is another irony: we are supposed to be a society based upon the sanctity of the individual

Comment by SFC SKI on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:30:00 EST

A shirt reads "It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand" well, hell man, sit down and talk to me so maybe I can understand. One great thing about the military is that it forces people to live and work together. No, it is not perfect, but it is integrated for the most part, and that constant interaction can open up communication, can make the other seem a bit more familiar and human, and that is a key to eliminating racism. I have to agree that no matter it might feel like irony or poetic justice for a white man to be passed on for a minority for any reason other than merit, it is still the same thing: discrimination.

Comment by Eric Olsen on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:07:50 EST

I am not trying to defend reverse discrimination, just explaining its existence and relative acceptance

Comment by SFC SKI on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:01:41 EST

Lots of points have been made, but lots hof the posters have failed to acknowledge the validity ofthose points but continueto act from their own buttons being pushed. Listen to each othr, consider what the other person might be trying to say rather than going with the gut reaction their words cause. Good article, Doc.

Comment by Dave Nalle on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:55:33 EST

Maybe I can provide an example of how reverse descrimination goes wrong. Here in the State of Texas the state government has a program to promote the use of 'Historically Underutilized Businesses' as suppliers by state agencies. The idea of this rule is that when buying supplies or equipment - like desks and chairs and pens and computers - agencies have to actively seek bids from approved HUB vendors, and have to buy from HUB vendors over any other sources. And in fact, they have to buy a minimum quota of their purchases from HUBs regardless of the price, even if all the HUBs they have to choose from charge much more than non-HUB vendors. Then there's the question of who gets to be a HUB. You might think it means businesses owned by blacks or hispanics. But in fact it means businesses owned by ANY minority, including minorities which have never been discriminated against here in the US, like Pakistanis, Iranians, Indians, White South Africans, first generation Chinese immigrants, etc, plus groups which really don't face discrimination issues as business owners like white Women. Basically, any business which is not owned by a white man qualifies as a HUB. IMO this sort of system goes beyond affirmative action to become active discrimination against white males as a group. Because it defines the priveleged group as everyone else, it amounts to discrimination against the excluded group. It's also troubling that it often results in state agencies spending more of our tax money to buy HUB products when they might be cheaper from non-HUB vendors. But then on the other hand, there aren't an awful lot of non-HUB vendors left because every office supply company in Texas is now nominally owned by the real owner's wife. A system which creates an incentive for that kind of hypocrisy is obviously deeply flawed and abusive. Dave

Comment by Eric Olsen on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:49:15 EST

who's been on top of the heap of the central North American continent for the last 400 years or so?

Comment by Diet Doc on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:42:23 EST

Eric writes: " I think the point is to understand why this is allowed to be, and it is allowed to be because of the historical record of the socio-racial hierarchy" Reply: For my edification, and if you could find the time, could you elaborate? I am not sure I follow. Cheers, Ron

Comment by Eric Olsen on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:22:42 EST

clearly there are discrepancies in the arrows of racial generalization, I think the point is to understand why this is allowed to be, and it is allowed to be because of the historical record of the socio-racial hierarchy

Comment by Diet Doc on Whither Integration?

Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:48:17 EST

Boy, my last post was a conversation stopper, wasn't it? [sigh]

Comment by Diet Doc on Whither Integration?

Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:13:29 EST

Let me give one trivial but cogent example of the subtle "racisim" that obscures the issue of what is "politically correct" and what is not. Not 30 minutes ago, in my clinic I called back an African-American patient, and while I waited - I was piteously and unconsciously gyrating (one could definitely not call it "dancing") to a song on my office speakers. I think it was Phil Collins. Regardless, when the very nice lady - a long-time patient - approached she giggled aloud and remarked, "Come on, Doc! You know white people can't dance!" Of course, I don't take myself very seriously EVER, and replied "You are absolutely right! I can't dance a lick!" And laughed along with her most innocent of remarks. But, just think. If I were in this person's place of business and remarked, publically, "Come on, Mrs. Whatever! You know black people can't [fill in the blanks]!" Maybe while she figured out my bill at her business, I giggled and said "Come on, Mrs. Whatever! You know black people can't add!" I realize this is all but ridiculous to compare apples and oranges and - for the record - I do not feel offended, discriminated against, etc. etc. - but it highlights what I, at least, am trying to discuss and understand. Cheers, Ron

Comment by andy marsh on Whither Integration?

Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:05:19 EST

Maybe because you're talking about a few thousand people at most and it doesn't matter in the larger scheme?

Comment by Mark Saleski on Whither Integration?

Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:03:29 EST

MS - who gets the majority of those sports scholarships these days? i don't know...and that's not the point. the argument is always made that affirmative action is bad in the case of college admissions because people should get in only on their academic merits. why doesn't someones's athletic ability of the size of their daddy's wallet make people equally as crazy?