I'm not surprised at this. There was one or more school districts that shut down all after hours clubs, band, I think sports too, rather than ;have gay-straight alliances. It's clear that you need to either support the Right's ideology, or they will just shut things down. This is no different.

I think that the Right won't stop, can't stop, until it's a one-party state. While this example you post here, isn't outspokenly politically based, it's pretty obvious, isn't it? This is why we have a VP who curses his political opponents, why we have illegal gerrymandering in Texas, etc. It's all or nothing, it's gotta be.

When your propaganda machine is working 24/7, to demonize liberals, how can you then turn around and 'compromise' with them, what does that say about the 'values' you have built an entire movement on? It's all or nothing, that's the hole they dug themselves into and now they gotta stick with it. And we're all gonna pay.

Eric: why self-loathing?

Physical appearance, personality and politics aside, he has made considerable achievements on the local, national and international fronts.

As for positive role model, just what do they want that to mean? Someone that everyone likes and has politics that offends no one?

I don't always agree with Michael Moore. I don't always like his way of getting information and making a point even when I agree with him.

Obviously not everyone is embarrassed that he is from Flint. If I was from a hometown that showed such cowardice, then I might be embarrassed to be from such a town.

I think of Moore as a centaur: half man, half horse's ass (this is my original idea, please credit me if you use it). I know he's on my side, but geeez, does he make me cringe sometimes! Still, he's fighting the good fight, as I see it, and the country is better for it.

As someone active in animal concerns, I feel I must defend both horses and asses (thing kind with four legs).

Libel is an ugly thing.

Oh egads... am I going to have to hop in here to defend Mr. Moore? I suppose I am.

There are some justifiable criticisms against Michael Moore. However, I think the vast number of people who blithely characterize him as a... well, just see the above... have not seen his films. In fact, it's likely that they get much of their information via The Drudge Report and The Factor's Talking Points.

The guy is, above all else, a filmmaker, and a rather good one (just look at his box office as a capital L Liberal / documentary-maker).

Moore is a satirist and muckraker at heart, the type of person who is always going to garner as much hatred as love. The fact that he's very good at what he does only increases the stakes.

If you watch Fahrenheit 9/11 closely, you'll know that Mr. Moore actually uses quite a bit of restraint in the presentation of his case. I do think that he places disparate information together in places and insinuates... what do you think that could mean, huh? but the fact remain that F 9/11 is based very much of facts.

In fact, the scenes where he returns to Michigan are among the most compelling (and obviously Roger & Me centered around Flint). The military recruiters exploiting poor neighborhoods and the military mother distraught over the loss of her son are compelling and heart-breaking facts.

So: save the fat horse's ass crap. If you want to break Moore down, do it with reason and logic and intellect, not with stupid bullshit.

Eric Berlin
Dumpster Bust: Miracles from Mind Trash

"illegal [sic] gerrymandering in Texas"

If it's "illegal" then why does it have the force of law?

Was the Dem-led gerrymandering that preceded the GOP-led gerrymandering also "illegal"?

If it's "illegal" then why does it have the force of law?

Why is Tom DeLay being investigated?

Was the Dem-led gerrymandering that preceded the GOP-led gerrymandering also "illegal"?

Never heard about it, so I'd guess not.

I get very confused and worried by this George Orwell doublethink that seems to be so popular in the USA right now.

It seems that to be a decent human being is now routinely derided with the frankly bizarre insult "liberal"; as if its opposite (tight, mean, controlling, republican, extremist ?) were somehow a good thing...

And so-called decent folks feel no sense of shame or embarrassment when they make comments like
"I think Michael Moore is an unfunny, disingenuous, slovenly, bloated, smug, self-loathing, opportunistic, obtuse sack of spite. He literally makes me physically ill" in a public forum.

Strike 1 for intellectual honesty.
That is still a respectable concept these days, right?

To me, it's like the Sex Pistols not being in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. Not influential enough? Are ye mad?

Then again, I imagine Moore loses no sleep over not being in his HS' Hall. Like the Sex Pistols, it's probably one of those, 'I wouldn't want to be in a Hall of Fame that would have me anyway' kind of deals.

Considering the great number of self-loathing dupes in the U.S. who would rather be ameobas than Americans, I don't see how Mssr. Moore can be considered, "a positive role model for youth." He only encourages this pessimistic, anti-American behavior in young people.

Davison HS made the right decision.

Tigress and Eric B.:

You seem to think that I don't like Mikie. I do, actually: reread the second and third sentences in my post above. It's just that some of the things he's done (Crackers the Corporate Crime-Fighting Chicken, for example; once was funny, but after that...) come off as extremely silly, making it easy for the Right to dismiss anything he does.

On the flip side, I thought the segment (TV Nation? The Awful Truth?) on trying to get a taxi in Manhattan stop for actor Yaphet Kotto, whom they bypassed time and again for a convicted felon who was white, was absolutely brilliant.

I haven't seen F9/11 yet, but I did think Bowling for Columbine was very good.

My comment about Mike being a centaur was not meant to break him down, discredit him, or dismiss him. It's just my opinion on how he sometimes makes me feel.Would you prefer "half god, half horse's ass"?

And I never go to the Grudge - I mean Drudge - Report site. That closet case with his stupid hat has nothing to say to me.

there are two separate matters here (at least): 1) How I (or anyone else) feels about Moore 2) the behavior of his high school Hall of Fame committee.

How is it "intellectually dishonest" to say exactly what I think about him? I think what I think: I have seen the movies, I have read his website (though only excerpts of his books), I have observed his public behavior - he is what he is from my perspective. I don't like his movies at all, completely apart from the politics. I find him to be a hectoring, self-righteous, and I'll repeat, unfunny, uninteresting, dolt. Your mileage may differ, and given his popularlity, obviously many people do.

Eric, why "self-loathing"? Because of his personal appearance and demeanor, because why does he ALWAYS assume the worst about America and Americans? I guess because he is one. Why is he popular outside of the US? Because he tells those inclined toward the most generic, parochial anti-Americanism exactly what they want to hear, thereby confirming their prejudices for them. Seriously, I really really think he sucks.

BUT - my point here is to say that despite my personal feelings toward him, he clearly meets the criteria for inclusion in the high school's Hall of Fame and they shuld just suck it up and deal

because why does he ALWAYS assume the worst about America and Americans?

Does he? Has he assumed the worst about John Kerry, Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton? Maybe it's only part of America that he sees the worst in, and maybe he considers it his job to document it, so others can see things as he sees it.

The values that Michael talks about: guns (bowling for columbine), big business (when he took on General Motors), warmongering (farenheit 9/11), are not the values that his ideology coincides with. He does not 'attack' the American values of diversity, tolerance, equality, helping the poor, etc. He hasn't attacked affirmative action or anti-discrimination laws, etc.

I don't think he assumes the worst about Americans, just some Americans.

As far as this comment goes:
....an unfunny, disingenuous, slovenly, bloated, smug, self-loathing, opportunistic, obtuse sack of spite. He literally makes me physically ill" in a public forum.

I could apply those exact same terms to Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh, which confirms my belief that Michael Moore should be considered the Left's equivalent. Somebody who is known for being over the top, but we pay attention to anyway.

One key distinction that this case points out, in the difference between ideologies, is that the Right will attack the Left and then also put out 'pro-Right' stuff as well (even though it's filled with just as much misinformation as the attack).

The Left just puts out attacks on the Right and very seldom puts out 'pro-Left' stuff. Michael included. This is why he's seen as always attacking America.

I still don't know what effect Fahrenheit 9/11 had on the election. I agree with Eric Berlin that most of the film is much more fact-based than people give it credit for.

But unfortunately, Moore's style is so polarizing that some people assume that true things in the film are not true, merely because they don't trust him. I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned something that really happened during the last 3-4 years, and heard someone say "Oh, that's what Michael Moore says." I would explain that the movie had nothing to do with the issue, or with my opinions on it, but the conversation would inevitably shift to how fat, annoying, and/or conceited Mr. Moore was.

Guided By Voices has a song called "S*** Midas." Even though I like Fahrenheit 9/11, and agree with a lot of it, I'm afraid the movie had that effect on a number of important issues.

Steve - You bring up an important point in that the Left desperately needs counter-balances to Rush, Hannity, Bill O'R, etc. etc. I don't know whether or not Moore fits the bill, but he's about the closest there is at the moment. People like Al Franken and Bill Press run far-distant seconds.

In any event, the Left needs to build up a media machine to fight on equal terms with the Right. This includes pundits, broadcasters, think tanks, and communications infrastructure. The Right has been building and tweaking this machine for over twenty years, and the Left has only just recently started to respond.

I admire Moore's ability to bring to the fore the right's hypocrisy concerning national defense.

He pointed out that of all the U.S. Senate and Congress, only one member had an offspring serving in the Iraqi war.

When Moore asked Bill O'Reilly if he was willing to send his own son to Iraq, O'Reilly responded, "No. I would go myself, first." Hmmm...interesting. A peak at his military records show that when O'Reilly did in fact have the chance to serve his country during the Vietnam War, he chose instead to stay home while others sacrificed life and limb over there.

It is surprising how many from the right bravely spout pro-war slogans - as long as it's someone else who goes over in harm's way...

Gloria Allred (how fitting!) is the Left's equivalent of Ann Coulter, and just about as annoying.

Who is Gloria Allred, and why have I never heard of her, when I've heard of Coulter and co.?

Gloria Allred does not do politics. She is an attorney involved in the Scott Petersen trial, and she had something to do with Michael Jackson's case. That's not politics at all.

The Left should turn to Arianna to be Ann's counterpart. In a debate, she'd mop up the floor with Ann's spittle. Besides, Arianna isn't as 'clenched' as Ann and middle America would warm up to that.

My charactization of Allred comes from the times I saw her when she was a guest on Politically Incorrect. She and Coulter (who is also, supposedly, an attorney) share the same tactic of trying to shout down anyone with an opinion that diverges from theirs. Thus my my lack of respect for them both.

Arianna Huffington is not Coulter's counterpart - she's got too much class. She's also got a wit as sharp as a razor, has a brain in her head, and is a 'babe' besides - an irrestible combination for me. Oh, if only I had the looks, money, self-confidence, and traveled in the same circles she does...ah, well, I'll have to settle for getting her email newsletter (which I recommend).

dude, she already snagged the bucks - go for it

I wish - she's only been to Connecticut once in the time she left the Right. But I have nothing to bring to the table even if I lived down the street from her.

Nick, you've made me believe even more that Arianna is the one to be a counterpart to Ann. Not only because of your analysis of her debate skills but because of your admiration for her.

I'm not saying that Arianna is her counterpart, I'm saying the Left needs to get her to be.

Michael Moore only assumes the worst against the best Americans, and fights the most for the worst Americans.

Michael Moore fights the most for the blue collar common man.

Has it gotten awful stuffy in here?

Arianna Online

never trust Greeks bearing gifts

Never trust closeted gay American millionaires.

are you angry with Jann Wenner?

I was hinting at Michael Huffington.

Jann Wenner is closeted?

he was until that little embarrassment of a few years ago - I don't know if he ever acknowledged it

I know Nick, just yoking around

Steve - Gloria Allred doesn't do politics? WTF is NOW? She was the president!

My bad...that was Steinam...but she is the president of Women's Equal Rights Legal Defense and Education Fund (WERLDEF). Sounds fairly political to me.

I graduated in 1967 from Davison High School. Michael Moore may be rough around the edges, but he provides a "check and balance" for the politicians and corporations that want to run away with the average citizen's rights and freedoms. Hitler would have had to struggle to take over the German mind set, if there had been someone lighting fires in Germany. The bottom line is that he makes people think and engage in conversation where the well-being of our community is concerned. He has made money, fame, fortune, and Davison High School can be proud that he has made a name for his gutsy voice in America. GO MICHAEL MOORE, and shame on Davison for not seeing how much he has achieved.

Bethany: Extremely well put -- thanks very much.

Thanks Bethany, I agree with you on two points: the gadfly role is vital for any democratic society, and Michael Moore deserves to be in your high school Hall of Fame.

I don't think Moore is very good at the gadfly role but that's another matter, and certainly enough people DO think he's good at the gadfly role that by any reasonable measure he must be called a "success."

"Has he assumed the worst about John Kerry"

Yes. He wrote highly negative things about Kerry on his own little site... (BEFORE the election...)

"Moore's style is so polarizing that some people assume that true things in the film are not true, merely because they don't trust him."

People don't trust him because he has blatantly LIED so many times in his "documentaries"...

"Who is Gloria Allred, and why have I never heard of her"

I don't know. She's on FOXNEWS and CNN and COURT TV like every friggin' day...

Maybe you don't watch those channels?

"Michael Moore fights the most for the blue collar common man."

[retch]

How many millions is he worth?

Why is it a bad thing to make money in the name of good causes or art, but fine to get bleeding-out-the-ass rich selling pencils or oil or anything else?

I've never understood that (and probably never will).

The only thing Michael Moore has ever made me think about is what an asshole he is!

Eric, I don't think it's "making money from good causes or art" that disturbs people, but rather the hypocrisy of one who presumes to speak for the working class, a populist, who becomes wealthy through commandeering the symbols of populism for his own economic gain.

And then there is the part about "good causes" - many would say his causes are not "good," but are a childish and disingenuous mixture of self-indulgent moralisms whose ultimate goal is nothing but self-aggrandizement.

oh, and regarding the "art" aspect of his work - is it art or is it propaganda for the choir?

Thanks for the support. We have received tons of support so far. Check out our new web site.



www.GetMikein.com

"...but the fact remain that F 9/11 is based very much of facts. "

Strung together or taken completely out of context, but facts nonetheless.

I am certainly no fan (see "Memorandum to Michael Moore" on BC) of Michael Moore. However, in the spirit of full disclosure, I must admit that I am no fan entirely because I disagree so strongly with his political/social views. I may not agree with his views but I would die for his right....etc.

Similarly, I am no "fan" of Barbara Streisand - not because she is not an excellent entertainer, but because of her particular social/political viewpoint. ibid: Sean Penn, Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, ad infinitum. That's my cross to bear and I bear it with pride. It's my right to personally boycott anyone and anything I disagree with. Am I hurting them by not buying their wares? Absolutely not. But it's a stand I make, by choice.

However, for his high school to deny him a place in the "Hall of Fame" is absolutely hypocritical. I have not seen the roster of their previous inductees, but I would be willing to bet his accomplishments and stature would rank highest among them.

It's one thing to disagree with someone's views and politics; it's quite another to not acknowledge his work.

"I'm outraged they closed the Hall of Fame for this stupid reason! What can I do? CALL DAVISON SUPERINTENDENT CLAY PERKINS DIRECT AT [deleted] and voice your support for reinstating the Davison Hall of Fame!"

See Moore's book, "Stupid White Men"
ISBN: 0060392452

I think that says it all.

Cheers,

Ron

thanks for checking back in Ryan.

When the Diet Doc, who is a boycotter based upon politico/social positions, supports Mad Mike in this, you know they made a mistake.

Wow.. I researched Ryan Eashoo and found out he is a kick ass guy. He is fighting to get Michael Moore recongnition that Mike deserves.

Ryan is a hero in my eyes. It seems like he is going places in his life, and going to make it big...

Ryan, when did you change your name to jamie (kidding)

I can't help but wonder if Moore looked like Tom Selleck, Brad Pitt, Catherine Zeta Jones, or some such "beautiful person", would the people that rake him over the coals be quite as energetic about bashing him...?

That scenario of him sitting on the table removing his shoes & socks and picking his toes .....
Is that for REAL .....????? Yuccccchhhhhhhhhh

Of COURSE he more than deserves to be in their silly little Hall of Fame, and as stated above--he is by FAR their most famous and thoroughly sucessful individuals from their little podunk town. He is an excellent role model for children to aspire to emulate. Should they try to mimic the steroid injecting sports pros instead? (Yes- if money is all it's about.)

I think we, as a culture, have become indoctrinated since we were young with this "Religion of Beauty" foisted on us by much of our media. We tend to judge the book more by it's cover than it's content.


I admit I'm as guilty as any. On my first sighting of Moore, my immediate reaction was "what a fat slob".... and I really didn't pay much attention to his content.

It's not easy and goes against our reliance on that first impression, but maybe we all could try to recognize that tendency in us and try a little bit harder to forego that physical judgement and look at the person and what they are saying a little more than some of us do.

Perhaps this is a reason why blogs have become such a phenomenon so rapidly in that they allow people that chance to not be judged by their looks.

Save the Platypi.

I agree with you about the way you view the issue. I remember, long time ago, Jack London said something like "Everything positive has a negative side; everything negative has a positive side." I also find it interesting to see different points of views and learn useful things in the discussion.

Posted by: Richard Hill at May 17, 2005 08:59 AM

Nearly 60 responses and not one of them said, "Who is Michael Moore?" It's almost as if he is famous. What's the name of the thing for which he is unqualified? Now who are the people on the list who are more famous?

If they want it to be the Hall of People Who We All Agree are Wonderful, they need to change the name.

Tristan writes: "I can't help but wonder if Moore looked like Tom Selleck, Brad Pitt, Catherine Zeta Jones, or some such "beautiful person", would the people that rake him over the coals be quite as energetic about bashing him...?"

Reply: In my opinion, he probably would be the subject of scorn from some quarters, including, I freely and gleefully admit, mine.

I truly believe it has much more to do with his politics and opinions than his grooming, size, etc. He has very strong opinions, as do I. His happen to be the polar opposite of my own on most issues of importance to me.

Now, this is only my opinion and I am one who includes in my "Hall of the Scorned" such "beautiful" people as Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, and many other Hollywood illuminati.

Cheers,

Ron

Everybody has there own opinion and I truly like the fact that he lets the underdog know that anyone can make a differnce. I believe that over the near future we will see more independent politicians in office and although moore may have some questionable actions he has given a voice of new hope to younger crowds of people to go out there in there local communities and make a difference.