AMEN!!!

Andy, if you have a tree up in your house, lights on your bushes, and are buying Christmas presents for your family, in what sense is Christmas disappearing? Every house on my street, except for my Jewish neighbors across the street, is decked out to the nines. We were in NY this past Sunday -- and even in that most multicultural of cities in that bluest of states, in the midst of all that secular humanism, Christmas from one end of Manhattan to the other. Have you seen the size of the tree in Rockefeller Center? I've been bombarded with holiday imagery since the end of Halloween in every store I've shopped in, and in every catalog I've gotten in the mail. On what planet is Christmas disappearing? What we see might not have angels and baby Jesus, but it says Christmas loud and clear, since for all intents and purposes Christmas (at least the way it's observed here) has become a secular holiday that's all about consumerism. If what you're objecting to is the disappearance of the religious imagery, and you claim not to be religious, then, with all due respect, that's just hypocrisy. If the religious aspect is important to you, then go to church and celebrate the birth of Christ, and keep those teachings in your home and in your heart and in the way you live your life from day to day. I think that's actually what the holiday is about anyway, yes?

Yea, its complete bullshit what is going on in this country.

btw MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!! :)

I think the issue is the nexus between the secular and religious holiday of Christmas, and the line keeps moving in the secular direction in terms of public symbolism. In that regard, "Christmas" is disappearing as the nation becomes more and more sensitive to religious symbols. I was thinking about this when watching the Charlie Brown Christmas special, which was made in '65 - the centerpiece of the whole thing is Linus's recitation from the gospel. Would this even be allowed anymore in a new show on network TV? It is still shown on network TV but it has the status of classic.

DA - are you saying because I don't go to church that I shouldn't know the meaning of Christmas? Just because I decided a long time ago to stop going to church doesn't mean that Christmas stopped being Christmas! It didn't all of a sudden become the "holiday" season just because I gave up on organized religion.

But really what I'm talking about is the govt side of things. I had a discussion with the mayor of Surprise, AZ a few years ago when I lived out there. She had made a statement at a city council meeting that she wanted a menorrah in the town square and I said only if a nativity scene was included. She told me that a nativity scene was too religious! WTF is a menorrah?

I am speaking of all those things that used to represent Christmas. It just seems to me to be so much BS that every other religion can be represented during the "holiday" season, but the one that the majority of the people in this country celebrate is being blocked out.

No floats in Denver that say Merry Christmas, no songs in school that say Merry Christmas, it's all PC bullshit! There's no other way to say it. The inclusiveness that I keep hearing about has become exclusive in its treatment of the most holy of christian hoidays.

I should have included the link to tonguetied.com that shows all of the stupidity that's going on around the world!

And yeah, the stores sure seem to know what "holiday" is represented by this "holiday" season! I won't argue that it's been too commercial for a long time, probably since before I was born and I'm pretty damn old!

I think that's very true, Eric, I can't imagine it being made today. Christmas got lost a very long time ago, in my opinion, and not just because we got sensitive to public religious symbols, although that's certainly a factor. I think it has as much to do with the rapacious nature of consumerism, which is antagonistic to spiritual values in any season. But we're a bit schizoid as a nation on this -- on the one hand, we want to worship at the altar of capitalism, but we don't like it that we find ourselves spiritually malnourished. The biggest news stories at this time of year are about whether or not businesses are enjoying a good holiday season, not about how people are going about enriching each other's lives. We can't have it both ways.

That's part of it also Eric. No one was offended back in the 60's when that came out. Is it really that bad to try to show people what a holiday is all about? Or at least what it's supposed to be about? We all know that it's primarily about commercialism these days, but come on! It is Christmas after all!

Andy, you really need to lighten up with this Christmas persecution complex. The Denver parade, as I linked to in the other post, was/is indeed ALL ABOUT CHRISTMAS. All the floats were decked out in Christmas decorations. Santa brings up the parade caboose. What more do you want?

For next year, the mayor of Denver had decided to change the annual "Merry Christmas" sign at town hall to the more inclusive "Happy Holidays," since, one would presume, other people are celebrating other holidays in December. But all the holiday Christians in town whined that they were having their holiday taken away, so the mayor caved in and said he won't change the sign next year. What a loser.

The examples you're citing, Andy, tend to be where public money and/or public facilities are being used. In my opinion, public money/facilities should not be used to promote ANY religion or religious holiday.

As for Christmas disappearing in schools, anecdotal evidence abounds in both directions. My six-year-old daughter has returned home from school so far with several Christmas-related art projects, among them a gingerbread house and a Christmas wreath [which she pronounces "reef"]. Also, I was at her school on Saturday for her basketball clinic: Christmas tress and Merry Christmas signs were EVERYWHERE on the walls. I walked the entire length of the school's first floor, and I saw one Hannukah reference. Everything else: Christmas, Christmas, Christmas.

Stop whining, already. Hang up you lights, put up your tree, and go shopping, but stop whining about communities that have decided that YOUR favorite religious holiday doesn't deserve their public money.

The biggest news stories at this time of year are about whether or not businesses are enjoying a good holiday season, not about how people are going about enriching each other's lives.

Got-damn brilliant, as always, DA.

Andy, I totally agree with you that if a menorah goes up, so should a nativity. I see no difference between the two in terms of their inappropriateness as items fit for display in a public space.

And I did not say that you can't know the meaning of Christmas because you're not religious. I think I know the meaning of Christmas, and I don't consider myself a believer (and like you, I was raised Catholic, so I got my fair share of it when I was young). I am saying that giving short shrift to one's own religious practice and then decrying the lack of religious display on everyone else's part kind of lacks moral authority, in my opinion. What I am saying, I guess, is that the values that make Christmas important are the values we put into practice in our daily lives. If we feel that Christmas is disappearing, we need to look deeper into ourselves, not to our public officials. Christmas isn't actually something that someone can take away from you.

It's my blog and I'll whine if I want to!

I haven't seen squat from my kid, but then again, she's in HS and they don't play those reindeer games anymore.

That's my point, bhw, it sounds like you duaghters school IS being inclusive. There are plenty of others that aren't!

DA - what makes any of them inappropriate?

Well, Andy, bhw already said it very well: public money, public spaces, no religious displays, whether it's my religion or someone else's. I have no need to force my beliefs on anyone else, or parade them about, and I expect the same consideration. I personally have no problem with schools teaching the cultural significance of religious holidays provided they teach them all and not focus solely on Christmas.

DA, I agree! The thing I'm seeing though, lately, it's been anything BUT Christmas. That's the problem I have with this hole situation. If you're going to ban Christmas, then ban Hanukkah and Kwanzaa and everyhting else as well.

Andy, all I can say is, come to Connecticut. We've got Christmas by the bucket-load, and I've seen nary a menorah or Kwanzaa candle anywhere...

It's too freaking cold up there DA, but thanks for the invitation!

Well, if you ever find your long johns, Andy, the eggnog's on me. Spiked, of course :-)

Andy--Christmas is not the most holy of Christian holidays. Easter? Good Friday?

That's my point, bhw, it sounds like you duaghters school IS being inclusive. There are plenty of others that aren't!

Andy, I don't consider one [actually, quite small] menorah amdist a forest of Christmas trees and other Christmas imagery to be inclusive. But that's just me.

Also, no mention of Kwaanza to be found, or, heaven forbid, the New Year holiday.

On the whole, it annoys me that the school is giving Christmas so much friggin' attention. We aren't religious, but that's not my issue: it's the consumerism and commercialization part.

We celebrate secular Christmas -- we have the tree, the presents, the family gatherings, the lights on the house, etc., etc. But we try very hard not to make a huuuuge deal of it. We downplay the Santa thing -- he comes, but he fills the stockings and maybe chokes down a cookie or two [and I tried to fight the cookie thing, but my daughter came up with the idea after reading a book last year, so how could I say no?]. And that's it. But the school is just screaming Christmas and getting my daughter all wrapped up in it to a degree that I am finding annoying and against my version of the holiday.

I am always very conscious of the real meaning of Christmas, even if I don't celebrate it myself. And that's one reason we try to celebrate in a responsible way.

So my question isn't why is Christmas being banned? It's: Why is Christmas enveloping EVERYTHING?

Oh, and I might add that if one more adult asks my kids if they were "good" this year or if Santa's going to bring them lots of toys, I swear I'm going to say something equally obnoxious in return.

Andy, you live in Virginia. Is Christmas really not evident in the communities around you? Really, be honest. Where have you seen a reference to Hannukah or Kwaanza [either in word or imagery] that you haven't seen Christmas?

I think we CAN have it both ways: spiritual and commercial, we are just always trying to figure the right balance as the commercial tries to coopt the spiritual and the spiritual resists

I think the spiritual *should* resist. We in the US could all do with less commercialization of Christmas or any other holiday.

This becomes increasingly clear with age, as we realize that the value of "things" is vastly over-inflated.

Hey, Chicken Little, read this.

Oh crap, the link doesn't work.

Do a google search on Virginia + Christmas parade. And then tell me Christmas is disappearing.

bhw - actually, I've only read about it. I am, after all, in the golden buckle of the bible belt here! I live about a 1/2 mile from Regents University (live manger scene). Pat Robertson has even prayed away hurricanes before, God bless him!

I was just up in NJ last week and I think it's a little more evident there. The Garden States Arts Center light show was very inclusive. I applaud that kind of display. I keep reading about the exclusion of Christmas all over the planet though and that's what has me riled up right now.

I think the way schools should handle it is to let the kids create whatever symbolism they want to create. Maybe the reason that you only saw one menorah was that there was only one jewish kid in the school?

This seems to be like a glass half empty or half full kind of thing, I'm just not sure which one of us is seeing the glass which way! You say there's to much Christmas and I say there's not enough!

DA - for spiked eggnog, I may be willing to travel! I just had my long johns out. I was in NJ last week. Turned out I didn't need them, I needed my rain coat and umbrella instead!

The Garden States Arts Center light show was very inclusive. I applaud that kind of display.

Me too. Unfortunately, now it's not the GSAC but the PNC Bank Center. But I still call it by the old name, too. Much nicer. And less commercial!

I keep reading about the exclusion of Christmas all over the planet though and that's what has me riled up right now.

Then have a drink or something, because I think you're reading about isolated incidents across the globe, when, at least in the US, Christmas is still very present [pun intended] in all areas of our society.

Maybe the reason that you only saw one menorah was that there was only one jewish kid in the school?

Nope, we've got more Jewish kids than that in our community, although they are very much in the minority. But you make a valid point. My daughter brought home a wreath. Maybe she was given a choice of activities that day and chose the wreath. But I know all the kids made gingerbread houses because we had to send in the materials/ingredients. And the first floor of the school is decorated for Christmas. Sticking one menorah up doesn't make it inclusive.

I don't think people at large are trying to ban Christmas displays altogether. I think some small number people might be, but most people seem to be willing to accept a balance, with the scales somewhat more heavily tilted toward Christmas. Except for those idiots in Denver.

Chicken Little? Are you trying to hurt my feelings? That did make me laugh though! Merry Christmas!!!

Happy Holidays, Andy.

;-)

Jersey girls! Gotta love 'em!

does anybody know if the holiday pageant episode of south park is available on dvd?

that's a great one. the kids end up in jumpsuits, with music provided by Philip Glass.

i'm not kidding.

BHW, I think you are missing the point:
"The Denver parade, ... was/is indeed ALL ABOUT CHRISTMAS. All the floats were decked out in Christmas decorations. Santa brings up the parade caboose. What more do you want?"

If the Christ is taken out of Christmas, why not make it "XMAS"? I am not suggesting there should be no lights, celebrations, or gifts, but for all the commercialztion, there is still a large group of people to whom Christmas means the fulfillment of a promise made by (their) God to mankind, not the day we give presents and act nice to each other.

Andy is hardly alone in voicing this sentiment:"I am speaking of all those things that used to represent Christmas. It just seems to me to be so much BS that every other religion can be represented during the "holiday" season, but the one that the majority of the people in this country celebrate is being blocked out.

No floats in Denver that say Merry Christmas, no songs in school that say Merry Christmas, it's all PC bullshit! There's no other way to say it. The inclusiveness that I keep hearing about has become exclusive in its treatment of the most holy of christian hoidays." Imagine the uproar that would occur if Muslims could not mention Allah in reference to Ramadan, or Jews to the miracle they celebrate during Hanukah?
I am all for holidays and celebrations shy of ritual bloodletting and human sacrifice, especially if there is a day off in it. Seriously, I am less worried about a religion, more importantly those who practice it being members of America, being recognized than I am with people who would take all references to a belief in a higher power, and those who so believe, out of public life.

IS it possible that some Americans endorse the practice of any non-Judeo-Christian religion in its various and sundry forms as part of their inclusiveness, while abhorring the slightest reference to the "traditional J-C religion" because they know very little about the former, and feel they are all too familiar, and therefore disgusted, with the latter?

If the Christ is taken out of Christmas, why not make it "XMAS"? I am not suggesting there should be no lights, celebrations, or gifts, but for all the commercialztion, there is still a large group of people to whom Christmas means the fulfillment of a promise made by (their) God to mankind, not the day we give presents and act nice to each other.

I don't think I'm missing the point, Ski. Our discussion has been about public parades, school sponsored festivals, etc., where, frankly, Christ does not belong. When public money and facilities are being used, then the religious aspect needs to be downplayed if not non-existent.

The people who focus on the religious/spritual part of Christmas can do that at religious places, not secular ones: their homes and churches. Why should my town spend money to endorse one religion's holiday?

"No floats in Denver that say Merry Christmas, no songs in school that say Merry Christmas, it's all PC bullshit! There's no other way to say it. The inclusiveness that I keep hearing about has become exclusive in its treatment of the most holy of christian hoidays."

Andy was never able to show us that floats in the Denver parade could not say Merry Christmas. He read that somewhere, but couldn't link to it. And I tried to find it but couldn't.

If schools are banning Merry Christmas songs but allowing Happy Hannukah songs, then that's wrong. I never said it wasn't.

Seriously, I am less worried about a religion, more importantly those who practice it being members of America, being recognized than I am with people who would take all references to a belief in a higher power, and those who so believe, out of public life.

But I don't think this is happening, do you? I think there should be restrictions on how our public monies are used, however. Again, why should my town use tax dollars to pay for a religious celebration?

IS it possible that some Americans endorse the practice of any non-Judeo-Christian religion in its various and sundry forms as part of their inclusiveness, while abhorring the slightest reference to the "traditional J-C religion" because they know very little about the former, and feel they are all too familiar, and therefore disgusted, with the latter?

Sure, it's possible, but is it really a problem? For god's sake [another intended pun], religion is everywhere in our country, particularly Christianity. Every time I hear someone complain bias, I laugh.

I thought I linked this before..

Tonguetied Denver Parade archive



Holiday Diversity



A December parade in Denver will feature everyone from Chinese lion dancers to gay and lesbian shamans, according to the Rocky Mountain News, but not Christians who want to sing yuletide hymns or carry a Merry Christmas message.

Denver pastor George Morrison said his request to enter a float in the annual Parade of Lights, which apparently only coincidentally happens in late December, were rejected because parade officials wont allow any "direct religious themes."

"It's a little confusing to me," said the pastor, George Morrison. "Here we have this holiday, Christmas, approaching, and Parade of Lights is suddenly changed into something where you can't even sing a Christmas song?"

The one-hour parade features elaborate floats with holiday symbols such as Santa Claus and gingerbread houses, plus an "international procession" of cultural groups.

The international portion this year features the Two Spirit Society, which honors gay and lesbian American Indians as holy people; a German folk dance group; and performers of the Lion Dance, a Chinese New Year tradition "meant to chase away evil spirits and welcome good luck and good fortune for the year."

Those groups are considered examples of ethnic diversity, not religious groups, a parade official said.

(hat tip to Carissa P.)





07:53 AM

Tonguetied.com has tons of examples!

Thanks for the link, Andy.

So the group holding the parade wants a non-religious parade and supports a secular representation of Christmas. I think that the group is a private organization, so it's free to discriminate that way if it wants, just as the people who run the NYC St. Patty's Day parade can keep lesbian and gay groups out of their parade. What's good for the goose....

I do think that a shaman is considered a religious person, although I can see how, since some of the international groups being represented are pretty minor, that they could fall under the umbrella of an international celebration rather than a religious one.

It's interesting that the article doesn't mention other mainstream religions, like Judaism. So it seems that the parade organizers are trying very hard to keep mainstream religion out of the parade while allowing minor religious representations and secular references to religious holidays.

That's a hard balance to maintain.

Out here in California churches put on plays, the Story of Bethlehem is played at a church right down the street from where I live. It's a pretty big event, bigger than the church itself and the police cordone off major streets and redirect traffic for 5 straight nights.

Christmas, the TRUE spirit of Christmas is alive and well where it needs to be, in the heart and soul. If you don't like the fact that someone is having a parade and leaving Christmas out, either form your own parade or work on passing an amendment making Christmas a legally recognized federal holiday that salutes Christianity. I would think that the way things are going now, that wouldn't be hard to do. Tack it onto the Constitution Restoration Act. Make it a requirement that all city buildings put up a nativity scene. If the public recognition of Christmas is what is important, then do that.

Otherwise, do what my family does, celebrate the Happy Holidays with friends, showing tolerance and respect for diversity as Jesus taught us, then go home, sit in front of your Christmas tree, as we do, put on some religious Christmas music and give thanks for all that we have in this country that has given us so much.

Nobody can take your Christmas away from you, if you keep it right where it needs to be. And that's not hanging from the rafters of some public building.

You mean you can still practice Christianity in churches out there?

We'll have to put a stop to that, won't we?

So basically, put it away, we don't want to see it. You're still missing the point.

bhw dismisses a religion because it's a small one and the people that are in the majority can't participate because it might offend someone.

So Steve, it IS ok to keep people, for whatever reason, out of a parade? This is the issue. Not whether or not someone is uncomfortable, for whatever reason, but that they can be excluded for what ever reason! Get it?

Like I said in the piece I wrote, I'm not religious. I had catholicism beat into me for 11 years and I haven't been back since. The FREAKIN' holiday we're talking about here is Christmas! It's always been Christmas! Like the man said, if you say a goats tail is a foot, how many feet does a goat have?

Still only 4, just cause you say the tails' a foot don't make it so. If it wasn't for Christmas, there would be no holiday season! And if you think there would be, tell me what holiday it would be?

So basically, put it away, we don't want to see it.

No, but I'd like to see less of it, particularly the commercialized side of it. But I don't think schools should be playing Christmas up in the art projects, etc. To bang a dead horse, my daughter came home today with 2 Santa projects. WTF?

bhw dismisses a religion because it's a small one and the people that are in the majority can't participate because it might offend someone.

It's not my parade or my town, Andy, so I could really care less what Denver does. I was just trying to parse their logic, and I said that the boundaries they were trying to set up were difficult to make. I'm not condoning it or condemning it.


Not whether or not someone is uncomfortable, for whatever reason, but that they can be excluded for what ever reason! Get it?

I'm not Steve, but I'll take a whack. Discrimination from public events held by private organizations is legal and has been going on for a long time. Only when a mainstream group is discriminated against do we start hearing larger numbers of people complain. If the principle is wrong, then it's wrong for everyone. Right now, the principle appears to be right in the eyes of the law.

If it wasn't for Christmas, there would be no holiday season! And if you think there would be, tell me what holiday it would be?

Hannukah and New Year's come to mind.

I should also add, because I just haven't said enough on this thread, that Christmas is in December only because the church adopted it to overtake pagan celebrations already in existence.

So Steve, it IS ok to keep people, for whatever reason, out of a parade

Sure it is. The Supreme Court told us so.
The Religious Right has fought tooth and nail for the right to disciminate and to exclude. So there you go.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Soon all of the gays, and the rest of the 'we want to be different and stir shit people'(who have no rights) will want to re-define Christmas the same as they do marriage. How about have a gay Kwanzaa on the "down low" and leave Christmas alone.

I like your post dude! You're not whinning the others just never stopped.

Merry Christmas to you too! All of you, whatever you practice or practice not practicing!

And you hear larger numbers of people bitching about shit because some of it just pisses off MORE people! I guess that's what makes it a majority!

But it's OK to discriminate against the majority because it's a taste of their own medicine. I like that idea...a little old testament stuff...an eye for an eye...David and Goliath...

Andy, I can understand this temper tantrum if your rights and liberties were being violated. Can you illustrate how a city sponsored parade that says Happy Holidays, violates your rights? We already know that a privately organized event, like most of those you cite above can do whatever the hell they want.

Personally, I believe you to be an ultra conservative, even though you don't go to church, but for the sake of argument, let's call you moderate, and put you in the same category as the majority of people who voted for Bush this election:

(I say most moderates voted for Bush because it is an important distinction to make that 3.5 million votes does not make a mandate. But anyway....)

You believe that my relationship does not deserve the federal recognition of yours, you have said so. You have voted for discrimination, to ensure my daughter does not get the social security benefits of both parents, to ensure my daughter does not get the societal protection and tolerance that marriage affords, you have told citizens of other countries that you don't give a fuck what they think, when the subject is about how American foreign policy affects their own country, you have repeatedly attacked a veteran and his service to our country, on your blog you attack THK and for what, her politics? Her husband? The fact that she's a woman? You have whined that non-smokers should be the ones who have to boycott a business if they don't like your second hand smoke.

Andy, I don't mean this to be as spiteful as it is coming out, but there is no other way to say it. It's all about creating a world that fits YOUR comfort level. Everyone else be damned. THAT is what defines an ugly American.

In terms of the very very few shamans at the PRIVATE parade, consider this: 90% of this country has a multitude of Christmas events at churches, at church sponsored events, and in their own home, to name a few, to choose from. A little bit of cultural diversity to show people alternative cultures is a good thing and that 'shaman' is invisible to us 364 days out of the year. Christianity, unfortunately is not.

This post reads like the winners of the Super Bowl bitching because the team with the most losses got a complimentary happy meal.

Now you are going on about how the majority is discriminated against. Andy, you haven't a clue as to what discrimination is like. Sorry, but not a clue.

I wish my biggest gripe was the lack of 3 plastic wise men floating above the city street this holiday season.

Well, it *is* a little hard to be sympathetic toward people who make no bones about discriminating against other people.

And it's difficult to get all worked up when I still see Christmas -- in word and symbol -- everywhere I go.

Putting Christ back in Christmas, even if it means lying about the fact that it/he's gone or that it/he actually has any relation whatsoever to the obsessive commercialization of the so-called holy day:

But the "keep the Christ in Christmas" contingent is particularly agitated this year over what its members see as a troubling trend on Main Street: Target stores banning Salvation Army bell ringers; UPS drivers complaining to a free-speech group that they have been told not to wish people a "Merry Christmas" (an accusation UPS denies as "silly on its face and just not true"); and major corporations barring religious music from cubicles and renaming the office Christmas bash the "end of the year" party.

Oh the horror! It's not a Christmas party anymore! It's actually a party that includes everyone! How dare these companies show any respect for their diverse employee populations? Don't they know Christians and their holidays come FIRST? How dare they change anything to be more inclusive?

And does anyone not see the irony of a campaign to keep Christ in Christmas at the SHOPPING MALLS of America? How ridiculous.

...the Virginia-based Rutherford Institute, which says it received the [false] UPS driver complaints, has reissued its "12 Rules of Christmas" guide to celebrating the birth of Jesus.

Shouldn't rule number one be to celebrate the birth of the Savior on Christmas itself, at church and at home and not for five weeks straight at the alter of consumerism, starting the day after Thanksgiving? And shouldn't rule number 2 be not to give a shit about what Macys calls the holiday season, since Jesus himself not only wouldn't have cared but would have pitched a fit if he saw what has become of his birthday celebration? In fact, shouldn't all 12 of those rules have everything to do with personal spirituality and NOTHING to do with secular recognition of the holiday in huge banners on storefronts or with forcing your cubicle neighbor at work to listen to your religious music when s/he's trying to get some work done?

What a bunch of hypocrites. It's not about Christ at all. It's about dominance and resistance to the fact that we live in a diverse society.

Steve - For the record, I have told you that I believe that civil unions would be a fine thing. I told you I just have a problem with giving up that word, marriage. As a matter of fact, I've told you on BC that I believe that any relationship you might have could be as meaningful if not more meaningful than one anyone else might have. I think pretty much everything else you've said about me is true.

You make it sound so bad that I slam Kerry and his bitch wife. Your boy Kerry is SO proud of his service but won't sign the form that releases his records! WTF is that all about?

Ultra conservative, wow! If you only knew!

Some people respect Christmas for the real reason. You ultra liberal gay extremist are the ones creating a meltdown here.

P.S. Sorry about your daughter but it is biologically impossible to have two dads. If a hetro couple divorces insurances companies will only allow that child to carry insurance through one parent. The same applies for other benefits.

That's it! It wasn't the Grinch, it was the gays who stole Christmas.

Wow. A new conspiracy to ponder today.

Condensing two posts of similiar ideology:

I think pretty much everything else you've said about me is true.

Yes, you did say that about civil unions, but you voted for the platform that wants to write discrimination into the const., that is what I was referring to.

I slam Kerry and his bitch wife

Is it because she's a strong woman?

You ultra liberal gay extremist are the ones creating a meltdown here.

If you actually read Andy's post, there is nothing here that is being done at the hands of 'gay extremists'.

it is biologically impossible to have two dads

What does that have to do with anything? There are heterosexual families created all the time that are not biologically created by the parents. But thank you for the science lesson, I was so clueless until you came along to save me.

If a hetro couple divorces insurances companies will only allow that child to carry insurance through one parent. The same applies for other benefits

What does that have to do with anything? We are not 'divorcing'. We are in a stable relationship that has lasted longer than any hetero one that I know of.

I brought this up, along with a whole slew of other ideologies of Andy's to illustrate 'Ugly American', not to turn this into a debate on what constitutes a family. My family does not qualify for an 'equal footing' as a divorced hetero couple.

----

Reaaaal hard to sympathize with your 'Christmas discrimination' Andy. You all are freakin clueless as to what discrimination really is.

" Our discussion has been about public parades, school sponsored festivals, etc., where, frankly, Christ does not belong. When public money and facilities are being used, then the religious aspect needs to be downplayed if not non-existent. "

Why? Is there some reason that citizens who do have a belief should not be allowed to recognize it in public? Is this somehow different from the Saint Patrick's Day parade, or a gay-pride parade? Ban one and the case for banning all gains a precedent.

When public money and facilities are being used

To me, SFC Ski, the difference is that a gay-pride parade is not funded by taxpayer dollars.

I have stated on another of Andy's threads about Christmas, that I personally have no problem with a faith organizing their own private parade. Seeking permits, funding it themselves and making it be about whatever they want it to be about. Just last week I think it was, in ML King's hometown, a bunch of religious African Americans organized their own parade and marched against same-sex marriage. You can google it for more news if you want.

It has to do with taxpayer dollars and government sponsorship. The government has never sponsored and never will sponsor a gay pride event. Bush was the first president since it's inception to refuse to even declare gay pride month, saying he didn't want to politicize orientation. This was about a year before his reelection campaign began.

I'm all for citizens of belief recognizing their belief in public. I'd like to know who they are, personally. But I do not think they should do it on my dollar.

The NY St. Pat's day parade went all the way to the Supreme Court. The ruling was that they are free to discriminate in who participates because it was a privately funded event.

Public vs. private. THIS makes all the difference here and the distinction should not be glossed over.

Good points, Steve, and I think Ski was right to question my wording, because I didn't say what I intended to say. I said something else, probably because I talked about public facilities.

I was indeed trying [poorly] to differentiate between public funding and sponsorship over private.

So I consider school Christmas play that portray the birth of Jesus to be a violation of church and state separation because the school, an agent of the government, is sponsoring the play. I also consider Hannukah plays to be a violation. I can certainly accept a holiday performance that is inclusive, however, but that would mean calling it a holiday performance and not a Christmas performance and that seems to get people all fired up.

And I think it's fine if the school wants to rent space to a private group that wants to put on a religious performance. I'm all for making money and reducing those property taxes!

So it's not that I don't think religion should not be present in public life. I just think I shouldn't have to pay for it and that my government shouldn't promote it. That's for private citizens and their private organizations to do.

[That's what I intended in what I wrote, but I know it didn't come out that way.]

So, that's what happened in Denver. A private organization hosted the parade and decided the guidelines for selecting participants. The people whining about no Christmas carols in this parade probably didn't give a crap about the St. Patty's Day parade ruling in NYC.

Now, I think they might.

Lastly, though, there is a difference between the St. Patty's Day and gay pride pararades and a religious holiday parade: our Constitution specifically mentions religion, but not ethnic or other group identities. So it may be that, constitutionally speaking, you could ban all religious parades while allowing the gay pride parade.

I think that's taking it too far, but I guess it could be argued.

I thought about this (albeit briefly) over lunch today. I took my daughter to taco bell. Yesterday we were at Wendys (and no, we don't eat fast food often, but it is Christmas shopping season for us.

In both restaurants, there were flattened boxes, wrapped up as Christmas gifts, on the wall to get into the spirit of the holidays. Wendy's even had a Christmas tree in the corner. Of the wrapped boxes on the wall, some were of Tweety with a candy cane, but some were of Santa, who represents Christmas and not Hannukah, etc.

Christmas is alive and well, where you find it.

In this whole discussion, the separation of public/private endorsement is paramount.

HOWEVER, if I were to put that aside for a minute and try to see this paranoia that Christmas is under attack, logic would still prevent me from seeing it as such. I don't know, I just can't dumb myself down that much and I try.

The Religious Right has fought tooth and nail, time and time again, for the right for private organizations/businesses to discriminate. Not only the St. Pat's day parade, but also the Boy Scouts, etc. And they win everytime. There is a fundamental right in this country for a PRIVATE entity to discrminate. Businesses (employment) do not fall in this category, so I will set that concept aside.

The Religious RIght is now feeding their flock the bs that Macy's is discriminating. I certainly do not see saying 'Happy Holidays' as discrimination at all, it clearly shows to me that people don't know how to form a thought without being told what to think, from the Right. BUT assuming that it can be construed as discrimination, it is a private business and has a right to discriminate in which holidays it recognizes, based on the rulings that the Right fought tooth and nail for.

It is so telling that the Right fights with all it's power to discriminate, but cannot tolerate discrimination back (and again, I do not think they are being discriminated against).

The ignorant masses of the Right, I am not surprised are fooled by such stupidity, but there are others who I thought could see the forest for the trees. Apparently not. (specifically NOT referring to you, bhw).

The Right is not under attack, has never been under attack, all battles against it have been DEFENSIVE. But the Right will NOT stop until it completely convinces America that public/governmental endorsement of their faith is the ONLY way to save it. And they've done a damn good job of it so far.

If you can't see that folks, then I would be wasting my breath to try and get you to see that this isn't about religion at all. It is about power.

ALL these PRIVATE entities that are saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, are utilizing the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT that the SCOTUS has determined we all have and that the Right has fought all the way to the Supreme Court to insist exists.

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas everybody.

bhw - if it's a parade on public streets then the public pays for it. Increased police presence, clean up...stuff like that. Unless it's on somebody's farm, it's pretty much a public parade. A particluar group may sponsor, but I doubt they cover all the expenses.

I agree that a birth of Christ play would be over the top in a public school, that's not what I was talking about. What I'm talking about is the exclusiveness to the point that the actual holiday that this holiday season has been created by has to be hidden in the back somewhere because it might offend someone! I read an article today written by a jew that said he enjoyed singing the songs when he was a kid! He said it never converted him...imagine that, a free thinking individual!

Steve - no, it's because she's a bitch!
I don't see defining marriage as discrimination. Sorry.

So it may be that, constitutionally speaking, you could ban all religious parades while allowing the gay pride parade.....I think that's taking it too far, but I guess it could be argued.

I don't think it's taking it too far at all. Religion is specifically mentioned in the foundations of this country (specifically separation of church/state), courts including the SCOTUS have upheld the need for the separation.

And religion is a choice. Falling in love is not, it is a fundamental part of a person's being. There are enough key differences to clearly make them incomparable.

And besides, nobody has to ever worry about the government endorsing a gay pride parade. It's never happened and it never will. And we go on and have great parades, celebrate our pride and unlike the Right, have never felt that what we celebrate is under attack, because we can't get the government to sponsor it.

Increased police presence, clean up...stuff like that. Unless it's on somebody's farm, it's pretty much a public parade. A particluar group may sponsor, but I doubt they cover all the expenses.

Wrong, the organization most definitely gets stuck with the clean up and security bill.

Should a permit for a parade be sought, then the government has an obligation to grant it, as long as it can be determined that it is not a danger to society. So religion and gay groups can both get a permit to celebrate on public property. They foot the whole bill and nobody gets their fundamental right to peaceful assembly infringed upon.

I never asked the govt to sponsor shit! I asked that it include everything!

If it's a holiday parade, why does ONE of the holidays get excluded? And it's happening more and more every year. You Steve, don't like the discrimination that you feel and I bet christians don't like the discrimination they feel either.

That's the question. It has nothing to do with the marriage amendment or anything else.

that's a darned good thing Andy, because I can't imagine the government sponsoring shit, unless it was some kind of very special shit like maybe bat guano, which can be made into explosives, or that of certain billionaires, which rumor has it, gives off no odor whatsoever

I never asked the govt to sponsor shit!

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was referring to the Right in general there.

If it's a holiday parade, why does ONE of the holidays get excluded?

Are you talking about the Denver one? I thought they weren't celebrating Hannukah or Kwanzaa either. Which parade exludes only one religion and is that parade a government sponsored event or a private one. Please clarify for me before I can respond.

You Steve, don't like the discrimination that you feel and I bet christians don't like the discrimination they feel either.

It is true that I have little sympathy for people who insist on the right to discriminate, then feeling discrimination themselves. If they were more tolerant in the first place, then I would be more tolerant back.

Anyway, one of your underlying themes here is discrimination against Christians. I still don't see it. Can you give me ONE specific example of discrimination. Where Christianity is singled out above all other religions and is exclusively the only one discriminated against? whether it is a parade or anything else. One specific example.

It has nothing to do with the marriage amendment or anything else

Yes, folks, to clarify for the third time on this thread, that was one of several concepts to collectively illustrate the definition of Ugly American. I understand the marriage amendment has nothing to do with a Holiday Parade.

Eric, Rumsfeld's war strategy wouldn't count?

I believe, steve, that this would be technically called "government perpetrated" rathre than "government sponsored"

Mithras be praised!

Still waiting for Christians, feeling oh-so-persecuted in this country, in this day and age, to give one specific example of discrimination or prejudice against them.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Vrolijke Kerstmis

Christmas Vaazthukkal

Steve I already linked to a page on tonguetied.com in comment 35. They have a lot of examples of Christmas being excluded.

Another MAJOR IRONY warning:

Here's an 'essay' about Christians being persecuted by those pesky Jews, Blacks, and secular Humanists again...

...Christians bemoaning their lack of popularity in the US, which-- last time I looked-- has "In God We Trust" printed as the predominate symbol on their secular sacrement, aka THE DOLLAR BILL.

...Christians complaining about how their little mythological miracle birth threatrical scenario is being 'legislated' out of the government/publicly funded realm -- even though the President of the US is a born-again True Believer whose main goal in his second term is the overthrow of the judiciary branch by Christoid judges on a Crusade.

=============

Andy, God spoke to me just now...


---and he wants you to quit whinin', quit bein' a hypocrite, and get your lazy heathen ass back to church.


Have a nice day,
Shark (member of the Latter Day Frisbeeites)

I might consider joining the Latter Day Frisbeeites!

okay thanks Andy. I went to tongue tied and read about halfway down the page. It's quite lengthy. Of all the instances listed in the first half of the page, only two instances that I saw amounted to discrimination. The one in Muskogee Okla. and the one immediately following it.

Those seemed to be discrimination to me because they cut out Christmas stuff but allowed other religious holidays.

ALL the other instances in the first half, were secular which cut out ALL religions, so those are not discrimination at all. Yet, what is important to realize Andy is that those instances are being lumped in with the rest to give you a perception of a 'mass' discrimination gong on. Sorry, that is how I perceive it.

I also came across the Denver parade story. The 'shaman' instance that has been referred to in this thread here is actually included because it is not about a diety. It is celebrating the shamans as gay and lesbian holy people.

Which then makes me wonder about any other instances out there, are they cutting out Christianity per se, or are they cutting out references to dieties (which would then allow expressions of faith, like a menorah or a Christmas tree, but no Nativity because it has a diety in it, etc.) That can make it get complicated to see if it's discrimination. Of course if your faith is entirely wrapped up in a diety and it's graven images, then it will be more likely you will feel slighted in those instances, correct?

For example, Christmas celebrates the birth of a diety, but Hannukah celebrates the victory of the Jewish Maccabees over the Syrians. No mention of a diety there. See the major difference?

Since there were two direct instances of discrimination out of about 30 instances listed, I will say yes discrimination may exist but not nearly on the level the Right is claiming it is. I didn't bother clicking on the actual news links of those two instances to investigate further, but took the word of the biased person on tongue tied.

Also, one of the whiny articles talked about a school that removed "Silent Night" from the kids' song list because a parent complained that it was too religious. Then Christians complained that the Hannukah Dreidel song was a religious song, but it wasn't removed.

Let's compare lyrics.

First, Silent Night:

"Silent night, holy night
All is calm, all is bright
Round yon Virgin Mother and Child
Holy Infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace

Silent night, holy night!
Shepherds quake at the sight
Glories stream from heaven afar
Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia!
Christ, the Saviour is born
Christ, the Saviour is born

Silent night, holy night
Son of God, love's pure light
Radiant beams from Thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth"

Now, the Dreidel song:

"I have a little dreidel
I made it out of clay
And when it's dry and ready
Then dreidel I shall play!

chorus:
Oh - dreidel, dreidel, dreidel
I made it out of clay
And when it's dry and ready
Then dreidel I shall play!

It has a lovely body
With legs so short and thin
And when my dreidel's tired
It drops and then I win!

chorus

My dreidel's always playful
It loves to dance and spin
A happy game of dreidel
Come play now, let's begin!"

Wow. I can see how the dreidel song can be directly compared to Silent Night in terms of it's religious content, can't you?

Good point, bhw. When my daughter is in school, if she cannot sing Silent Night, she will know that she can sing it with me when she gets home.

Maybe it's my 'gay' perspective that is coming into play here. I know that it affects a lot of my perspective in life. I've had to learn how to live with a perspective/ideology that the majority doesn't want me to share. Maybe it's understandable that Christians are unable to comprehend the thought.

I've had to realize long ago, that what is important to me comes from within, not from without. Perhaps Christians need a dose of that medicine as well? And I mean that in good faith, not spitefully. It's truly how you find happiness.

My dreidel is playful too

Seriously though, here is my perspective FWIW. I grew up in India, and was a member of the majority community. Religion was pervasive, but not in-yer-face. I went to Christian schools all through, first Methodist-run and then Church of England. We would sing along and participate, and no one had any issues with the same. There was no compulsion. All other festivals were celebrated with the same gusto, except perhaps Festivus.

My adult readings in history, archaeology and philosophy lead me to understand that the truth lies somewhere between a dark unfeeling void and a sentient information-rich universe, with everything interconnected through cause&effect. The tendency to anthropomorphize this into human terms is normal, and not bad in and of itself. The enforcement of state religion, however is bad, as history has shown. Thus the concerns about allowing the state to participate in dissemination of religion.

The festival itself, today, is more a mishmash of commercialism, social gathering and semi-religious beliefs than anything else. It is an older human observance than the recent religious connotations, dating back beyond 3000 years, and related to among other things, the winter harvest, the solstice and renewal/rebirth beliefs.

Godjul! Happy shopping!

THe public versus private argument was actually where I got off track. I can see the validity of points made in that realm to a certain extent.

I was approaching the issue more from the personal aspects, because just as some people feel they are attacked by Christians imposing their values, many Christians feel threatened by the "amorality" that is becoming more prevalent in public, at least it seems that way depending on whose news and websites you read.

I think DA hit it pretty well; religion/faith is a personal thing and all you can do is nurture it within you if you have it, and act outwardly in accordance with it. Christmas should be s timre of faithj, celebration and family, not some consumer buying fest, but it is up to each person and family to choose to make it that way.

For my part, Christians would probably be more effective if they would not band together under a "Religious Right " type banner, but get out amongst their communities and live their faith, instead of allowing themselves to be presented as some hyper-judgemental know-nothings.

So fair, so balanced, so Ski.

because just as some people feel they are attacked by Christians imposing their values, many Christians feel threatened by the "amorality" that is becoming more prevalent in public

I can see that some people can feel that way, but can you see a difference? In the first case, values are imposed, in the second case, no one is imposing values but rather living to each his own, which might be a visual affront to some but is not forcing them to live by any value system other than their own. Maybe I'm not wording it the best way but I see a distinct difference.

I'm guessing Ski does too, since he put "amorality" in quotes.

BTW, my daughter came home with a reminder today about next week's "Christmas party" at school. I think I'm going to threaten to sue if they don't change it to "Holiday party."

Just to piss Andy off.

Merry Christmas bhw, you... you... Jersey girl!

I just want you all to know that even though some of you disagree with me (and you're wrong) I still want to wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Mmmmm

Mmmmmmmmm

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmerry Christmas Andy.

There, I said it!

way to spit that out bhw, have you considered Lutheranism?

Would I have to give up my sarcasism?

sarcasm, it's not just for breakfast anymore!

Each year, the Christoids and the radical secular humanists turn up the pressure on the xmas holiday -- each to suit their own propaganda purposes.

I just wish everyone would shut up and accept it for what it is: a gigantic secular celebration of the One True Religion: shopping on maxed-out credit cards.

SUGGESTIONS:

Leave the public nativity displays, but put the baby Santa in the manger.

Sell corporate sponsorships for the Big Guiding Star (Texaco, maybe?), the Inn (Motel 6?), swaddling clothes (Pampers?), the donkeys and lambs (local Zoo?), Joseph's outfit courtesy of Brooks Bros, Mary's underwear courtesy of Victoria's Secret -- (etc etc.)

It could work.

Lutherans consume sarcasm and excrete sincerity, or maybe it's the other way around

Shark - I like all those ideas! Mary wore a push up???

was it the Lutherans that Robin Williams called catholic light?

I would insert Episcopalians as a buffer between Lutherans and Catholics

"All the floats were decked out in Christmas decorations. Santa brings up the parade caboose."

What, exactly, do twinkling lights and a fat bearded guy in a red suit have to do with the birth of the baby Jesus?

Because, you know, that is why CHRISTmas is a holiday to begin with...

"Also, no mention of Kwaanza to be found"

It's not a real holiday anyway...

i thought it was a holiday so that we get an extra day off every year.

...except for convenience store operators, this is.

What exactly is kwaanza, anyway?

What are you afraid of when it comes to God, Jesus Christ, etc? Talking about phobia's. You think that people are homophobe's or are filled with hate if they are normal and straight, yet anything to do with God or the church freaks you out. Is it that 'out of sight out of mind' thing or something like that. Afraid if you hear it too much it'll turn or straight or convert you involuntarily from your current view's? Kind of like a real homophobe thinking that his or her child will become gay if they see it or meet gays in school or in everyday life. I'm still waiting for you neo-liberal extremist quack's to boycott the "In God We Trust" American dollar.

"We are in a stable relationship that has lasted longer than any hetero one that I know of."

You must know few hetero couples...

"specifically separation of church/state"

Where, exactly, in the US Constitution, is such a "separation" outlined?

So, when do we go out and hit heathens and heretics with socks filled with nickels, y'know just for fun?

Part of the holiday spirit, right? Isn't that what you're representing?

It's not a real holiday anyway...

It's as real as any other.

Quarters Jim...American Quarters at that!

Why can't we just leave things as they were? Forget Political Correctness. My world is changing too drastically in my lifetime, please slow down!