Lono: "I have no problem with blacks, they are not different people, this isn't even an issue. But... what if they have a problem with me?"

That could very well be the case, as Martin Luther King's (and even Malcolm X's) words are lost on them. We are seeing a phenomenon where blacks are free to enter white neighborhoods - as they should be, and nothing wrong with this - but whites are threatened if they enter black neighborhoods (or assumed, if they are large white guys, to be undercover narcs or cops). In other words, it's largely the reverse of the discrimination aimed at blacks before the civil-rights movement.

One question I have that some may brand me a racist for, but I don't care: Why do some black dudes walk down the street with hoods up and sporting a menacing look - and any security-conscious white or Asian who dares to cross the street to avoid them is accused of racism! I can't stand that mindset. If you want acceptance, dress and look more respectably; and if you want insist on living up to the stereotype, then you will be looked upon with suspicion and fear.

Manning opens mouth; inserts foot.

So much ignorant, mindless blather -- so little time to counteract it.

Fer Starters:

"...if you want insist on living up to the stereotype, then you will be looked upon with suspicion and fear."

Message: Try not to 'live' up to Manning's stereotypes. 'kay?

'Kay.

Oy.

========

RE:

Manning's "reverse discrimination" ie "white neighborhoods" vs "black neighborhoods" --

and

Lono's 'fear in Dallas'

It ain't about color, boyz, it's about extreme poverty and the crime, hopelessness and helplessness that often accompanies it.

Extreme poverty is often related to race in Amerika, although poverty knows no boundaries -- except of the gated-community kind.

====


BY THE WAY:

We're all 'racists'. The key to the game is recognizing that and overcoming it.

========

PPS: I wouldn't go to Dallas if Jesus were healing the sick at an all-you-can-eat hoe-down. It's a cement cesspool more dangerous than Baghdad at 3 a.m.

And, I might add, the perfect epitome of the New Wonder City created by Rich White American GOP Bible Thumping Capitalist Pigs.

Irony, that.









NOT.

You know, if I didn't know this was you, Shark, I'd have assumed it was MacDiva.

I live in a very diverse London neighborhood, so I know what I speak about. The area is not poor, but it is not affluent either; it's sorta in the middle (lower middle-class, let's say). And this is England - no horrible Republicans to blame bad attitudes on.

All I was saying was, why do some blacks live up to the attitude and then complain, "Everyone hates me. MUST be the color of my skin!" That may be true for some people, but I'm not one of them, thank you.

I was friends with an African - obviously, the friend was black - and the African once said how little tolerance she had for American blacks given their attitude. Gonna call her a racist??? Or did she simply see that they are taking no interest in school or studies. Education is the key. Granted, bad parents and morally vacuous role models are a factor, but if you want to make it, you need to put some effort into it.

Sorry for being an evil capitalist pig, but I don't have much tolerance for those who permanently live in Victimhood. Anyone can make it in America, or any capitalist society, but I wouldn't expect an overemotional liberal (a redundancy, that) to understand this.

I live in a very diverse London neighborhood, so I know what I speak about.

I'm sorry, how does that make you an expert on race relations in America?

We are seeing a phenomenon where blacks are free to enter white neighborhoods

I lived in L.A. for five years and I saw something entirely different.

Education is the key. Granted, bad parents and morally vacuous role models are a factor, but if you want to make it, you need to put some effort into it.

What does a comment on the education that African Americans have/get, have to do with the original blog questions about well built men being perceived as athletes or groups of African American men hanging out in restaurants? White kids hang out in shopping malls, hence the term mall rats. Hanging out has nothing to do with education, it is almost a rite of passage growing up.

Sorry for being an evil capitalist pig, but I don't have much tolerance for those who permanently live in Victimhood.

WTF? Did somebody get their answers to posts mixed up and this go somewhere else?

"WTF? Did somebody get their answers to posts mixed up and this go somewhere else?"

I think he was referring to comment #2, where Shark seemed to suggest that Dallas is more dangerous than Baghdad at 3am and that "Rich White American GOP Bible Thumping Capitalist Pigs." are somehow responsible.

oh, I wasn't sure. In his comment he said 'all I was saying....' and he was referring to comment 1, which was before Shark said anything. I guess then he switched topics with a new paragraph.

I do agree with the sentiment of Shark, if not the verbiage, that RWAGOPBTCP are responsible for the disappearance of the middle class and the continued ghettoization of much of urban America. Not everybody that is poor is a lazy slouch who cries victim. Actually few fit that description.

You don't sound like a racist to me, and I don't know why you accuse Limbaugh and O'Reilly of being racist. I don't know where you are from but the U.S. has definately gone racist happy over the last couple of decades. Even the most innocent things are deemed racist. I have witness much, much more racism from blacks against whites, asians, etc, than whites against blacks. I think white society, as a whole, has bent over backwards for blacks with affirmative action, quotas, etc, which are all reverse descrimination if you ask me. As far as your Dallas senerio, your actions were just common sense, not racist. Who do you think has to fear the most: a couple of white guys wandering into Anacostia, DC, or Harlem in the middle of the night, or a couple of black guys wandering into a white neighborhood? The truth of the matter is, blacks are only about 15% of the U.S, population, but they commit the vast majority of crimes especially violent crimes. Oh that's right, the're victims of society. Check the FBI crime stats, before you call me a racist.

I don't understand why you automatically assumed that two fit guys wearing sweats or whatever in a jewelry store were rich and successful. I've known many ghetto dwellers who drove Cadillacs. Bling-bling isn't just for the rich, either. Maybe if you talk to yourself some more (in your blog) you'll dig out more false assumptions about other people.

First one - no, you said they were in athletic wear and big. You said the store was near the Broncos facility.
2+2.
Had you said or thought "Hmmm, are they gonna rob the place?" Then that would be different.


Second, since you asked. Again no.
Strange place.
Crowd of strangers.
Night time.
I'd be somewhat apprehensive no matter the color - and I think that's what happened with you.

"We are seeing a phenomenon where blacks are free to enter white neighborhoods - as they should be, and nothing wrong with this - but whites are threatened if they enter black neighborhoods."

Yeah, except for that whole racial profiling thing and groundless police stops of black drivers in affluent white neighborhoods. Ask any African-American what it's like to "drive while black," particularly in an area where they don't seem to "fit in" unless they're professional athletes. Even that doesn't suffice. I've read of high-profile athletes encountering racial discrimination in stores they shop in around the wealthier parts of Chicago.

White folks enter the "black neighborhoods" all the time -- to do business, own and develop property, to drive through on the way to their downtown jobs, to buy some drugs after putting in 10 hours at said yuppie brokerage job. Black folks who are discriminated against in the job market don't have the same luxury in the "white neighborhoods." Don't forget one reason America is so segregated now and hasn't made much progress in people living together: it's because of things like "white flight" to the suburbs that well-intentioned people like Lono are afraid to engage people of different races from behind vague fears and stereotypes. We perceive each other's dress and actions as dangerous or hostile because we are so dead-set on creating cultural divides and giving up hope of possibly communicating shared values and culture (all to be ignored).

That is all.

Paul: you could have had the same statistic about the Irish or Italians at the turn of the century, maybe even the Jewish. The Chinese indentured servants who worked in 1800s California were regarded as criminals and animalistic, yet their great-grandchildren are now being lauded as "model minorities" who are willing to flee to the suburbs and attend the right universities. Does that change your theory at all? Poverty, discrimination, and the focusing of police efforts toward the poor and discriminated-against result in theories of criminality like yours that are self-confirming. History proves as much. It also proves that the structural and cultural conditions perpetuating racism against blacks is far more profound and enduring than any other group has or will ever face in America.

Mark: simple question. If your theory of opportunity is true, why haven't you succeeded yet? I mean, really, why?

That is all.

Bob A. Booey: "If your theory of opportunity is true, why haven't you succeeded yet? I mean, really, why?"

Come again? What are you talking about, Bob? More info on my "lack of success," please.

In other business, Bob, I simply feel that we've erected a wall between us (blacks vs. whites) because America has become "racist happy" as Paul pointed out in comment #8. I really don't care who's responsible for it - I feel it's a joint fault on the part of both blacks and whites - I'm just interested in a way that we can tear down this barrier.

It's gotten to the stage where, because we're all so uptight, whites cannot engage blacks in a normal conversation because they're scared to death of saying the wrong thing ... if we seem to patronize blacks, it's due to the consequences of our anxiety; it's not deliberate (in most cases).

And thank you for your civil arguments here, instead of accusing me, point-blank, of racism the way Shark so eloquently (as always) did.

JR: "I'm sorry, how does that make you an expert on race relations in America?"

Because I am an American, and I lived in the U.S. for 30 years before coming overseas - and I never said I was an "expert" on race relations: I just gave my point of view!

It's gotten to the stage where, because we're all so uptight, whites cannot engage blacks in a normal conversation because they're scared to death of saying the wrong thing

Not this white boy.

Bob Booey: the big difference between "Irish and Italians at the turn of the century" is that each successive generation improved upon the last generation; learning the language, and becoming proud and productive members of society. Oh, and they didn't all insist on being called Italian-Americans, and Irish-Americans. I think most are plenty proud to be just plain ol' Americans. The opposite is true with blacks, I mean "African-Americans". You should read the book by a prominent black American (I don't recall the name) who took a trip to Africa, and wrote about how all black Americans should get down on their knees and thank God for being born in America. Slavery was one thing, but those born here, is another. During the 60's, as blacks were beginning to receive equal rights in the U.S., they did indeed become productive members of society. They fought for equal rights, worked hard, and educated themselves. Every generation since has declined drastically. Now, the percentage of black children born out of wedlock is around 70%, a lot of black kids can barely speak English, and there are more black men in prison than in college. Does this change YOUR theory at all Bob?

actually, it's about 15k daily, not weekly, 17k today, in fact

I reject this white man's burden of vague but persistent baseless guilt, and constant looking for some bad way to regard myself on racial issues.

My counter response is that I try to treat every individual fairly, like they deserve, or better. If I'm not being mean to people, I've got nothing to feel guilty about.

Or perhaps this is one of those original sin deals, like with the Christian religion. All white guys start out with slavery on 'em. Is that why I should feel guilty?

Perhaps Lono would do well to list a specific definition of "racism" against which we might judge our own personal hate crimes. Mine, I can tell you, are hideous.

Crikey! I couldn't carry on. I will try to read the rest of the posts later. Will respond to the original post and any other I might have read.

Are you racist because of your thoughts? I don't know. However, you are prejudiced. Is there a difference? I am not sure but I would like to think so.
I can't preach about it because I have had such thoughts about White folk myself. If I see one more brown toothed, dungaree wearing, trucker hat wearing, stringy haired white man driving a delivery truck, I might lose my mind. If I see one more anorexic looking, pale skinned, long haired, tight jean wearing white man and immediately assume he's a heavy metal rock star, I might lose my mind.

I complain everyday about blacks wearing jeans dropping off their bums, towels hanging off their back pockets et al. If I see one more white kid copying that look and looking more like an idiot than the cool black American he is trying to imitate, I might lose my mind. (Justin Timberlake & Eminem, take note)

I think almost every body from the deep south of North America is a former Klans member or a decendant of a klans man. I heard Charles Pickering this morning and before opening my eyes, I thought, what racist have Fox got on this time. Simply because of his Mississippi accent(don't care how many s's or P's). Is this bad? Yes. Does it make me prejudiced against White Americans with pronounced Southern accents? Perhaps. Yet, I find the southern drawl sexy. Is that Matt Mcconaughey's accent? I love it. 'tis different from Charles Pickering's though.

Does this mean I think I am better than these people and they are not fit to breathe the air I breathe or eat where I eat? Does it mean I deserve to own them? NO. We are all equal. Sadly, sometimes I block out the fact that every individual hs their own individual characteristics. Therefore, once the thought crosses my mind, I soon after I erase it and take the person at face value. Might still arrive at my initial prejudice but it's always a well learned lesson when I don't.

I dont think much of O'reilly or Limbaugh to care if they are racists. I find them deplorable human beings, so the issue of them being racist has no bearing because I could not think any worse of them than I do already.

Lono: "If you want acceptance, dress and look more respectably; and if you want insist on living up to the stereotype, then you will be looked upon with suspicion and fear."

Sandra: Sorry, just had to respond to this comment. It's a nonsense to suggest that people's fears are justified because young black boys like to strut with their hoods up. The fear of any white man in this case is the white man's problem.

I am afraid of heavily bearded white tramps on street corners, but that's my palava. It's not their fault they've got nowhere to go and no money to wash or shave. Dare I bump into a klan like shaven haired, blue eyed, white, tattoed boy in a predominantly white club? Heavens preserve me. I daren't. BUT that's my palava. Has nothing to do with the white person "insisting" on living up to any stereotype.

The manner of dress is only pertinent to the question of responsibility in my view. The issue of "fear" has no bearing except in the paranoid minds of those of us feeling the fear.

Why is it that every "pro" blackass is some white dude living in a white fuckin fag neighbourhood and every "I HATE THEIR BLACK ASSES" is some dude living in a fucked up hood... it is because ONLY the last of the two knows what they are talking about !!! IDIOTS ! Don't speak till you know !

pride, religion, politics that is where hate comes from, so why discuss it??? Just F.....G be human and get along... mind your owm buiness and respect eachother! don't hate just make love : )love you all Peace

"Paul: you could have had the same statistic about the Irish or Italians at the turn of the century, maybe even the Jewish. The Chinese indentured servants who worked in 1800s California were regarded as criminals and animalistic, yet their great-grandchildren are now being lauded as "model minorities" who are willing to flee to the suburbs and attend the right universities. Does that change your theory at all?"

Blacks have been in this country much longer than any of the groups you mentioned above, and yet the problem continues. Assimilation is the key here.

RJ: "Blacks have been in this country much longer than any of the groups you mentioned above, and yet the problem continues. Assimilation is the key here."

That may be, RJ. But I can't help but think about what turn-of-the-century, civil rights leader W.E.B. Dubois once said in a speech about "casting your bucket where you are," meaning, of course, use black labor instead of importing so many immigrants to do the work. If we'd listened to him, blacks today may just feel more appreciated and like they were an integral part of our society.

Sandra Smallson: "It's a nonsense to suggest that people's fears are justified because young black boys like to strut with their hoods up. The fear of any white man in this case is the white man's problem."

Is that so, Sandra? So I take it that if you're walking home alone on a deserted street, and a homey in a hoodie comes struting up behind you, you don't feel any fear whatsoever? This sounds like something I'd expect to hear from a guilty white liberal living in a lilly-white neighborhood.

As RJ and Manning continue to discuss "race" relations in America, I'm reminded of how little hope there is for the future of humankind.

Thanks guys!

Anyway, here are a few free tips to make a better future for you boyz and your dying planet:


1) Your tribe is "homo sapiens". Figure out the implications of that one and get back to me.

2) Your brain has other components besides the reptilian-limbic-territorial-imperative area; use 'em.

3) Your attitude toward others only feeds your own fear.

But then again, you seem to kinda like that.

...Never mind.

Blacks have been in this country much longer than any of the groups you mentioned above, and yet the problem continues. Assimilation is the key here.

So, when Little Richard learns to sing like Pat Boone, we got no more problems?

Shark, did you even see comment 24?

Yes?

And you ignored it as usual. How surprising.

Mark Edward Manning: Is that so, Sandra? So I take it that if you're walking home alone on a deserted street, and a homey in a hoodie comes struting up behind you, you don't feel any fear whatsoever? This sounds like something I'd expect to hear from a guilty white liberal living in a lilly-white neighborhood.

Sandra: Err..I will never be walking alone on a deserted street if I have any choice in the matter. I rarely walk alone on crowded streets. I rarely walk in fact except on a treadmill. I drive or am chauffered around.

Now, to your point. Should I for some unknown reason find myself on this deserted street and a "homey in a hoodie" is walking anywhere near me, I will be terrified. Same way I would be terrified if its a white dude in a hoodie. In actual fact, if I am walking alone on a deserted street, I would be petrified of any man walking on that same street even if he was wearing a nicely tailored suit from Saville row.

I am perplexed as to why you would expect to hear my comment from a guilty "white liberal living in a lilly-white neighnourhood".

I am also afraid of walking on a deserted street in a lilly-white neighbourhood. It's a case of choosing your poison. Do you want to be stabbed and robbed(homey in a hoodie, perhaps) or do you want to be gagged, bound, raped, mutilated, perhaps decapitated and maybe have your family find your remains in someones fridge, attic or back garden(lilly-white neighbourhood). It all terrifies me. Which is exactly my point. The way anyone dresses is an absurd point to raise as something that should induce fear.

I think you would find that most women agree with my comments regarding being afraid of ANY man or even person being anywhere near you while you walk on a deserted street. Even cats and dogs induce fear at that point.

I think you would find that most women agree with my comments regarding being afraid of ANY man or even person being anywhere near you while you walk on a deserted street. Even cats and dogs induce fear at that point.

I was with you up to the cats. But dogs, yes, scary.

Amazing.

Just curious: how many of you that feel threatened by hoodies have actually been attacked? And I didn't ask if you were threatened because there's no way to prove the threat is or is not an internally generated feeling.

It's funny, Black folks know which of the kids are a problem, and we don't base it on their clothing.

And to Mr: Manning:

In other business, Bob, I simply feel that we've erected a wall between us (blacks vs. whites) because America has become "racist happy" as Paul pointed out in comment #8. I really don't care who's responsible for it - I feel it's a joint fault on the part of both blacks and whites - I'm just interested in a way that we can tear down this barrier.

It's gotten to the stage where, because we're all so uptight, whites cannot engage blacks in a normal conversation because they're scared to death of saying the wrong thing ... if we seem to patronize blacks, it's due to the consequences of our anxiety; it's not deliberate (in most cases).

And did you HAVE to link that piece of shit D'Souza book?

P6,I can only speak for myself, but I've
never felt ANY liberal guilt or ANY sort
of defensive conservatism when speaking
to black folks I know. Or anyone else of
any other color for that matter.

Some of us truly like other people and
we try to treat them respectfully no
matter their gender,economic status,race
or religion,blah blah blah etc, in hopes
that we'll be treated with respect and
dignity by the other party.

At the very least, by doing this,I might
help dispel someone's pre-conceived view
of me/my skin color(if they have one),I
might just make a new friend or business
contact.I might just be the inspiration
for someone else to do the same. I can't
proffer this up as an end all solution
to race problems but strictly speaking
on a personal level it works for me.

You know P6, that by painting all white
people with such a broad stroke of the
brush with statements such as the above,
about their reactions to black people
(guilt/defense)that you're being a bit
of a racist yourself for pre-supposing &
pre-judging people.

PS: For what it's worth,I think avoiding
any group of teenaged guys in hoodies is
a smart move, no matter what their color
may be.

You know, threads like this get interesting because some people get so touchy about the topic of race/racism that you begin to wonder if they've got something to hide.

Just for the record, I will gladly join anyone in a good bash of white trash. HW Saxton makes a good point about avoiding anyone in a hoodie, regardless of race. "Homies" can be white too.

But for all the talk about how we're all homo sapiens and need to get past our racist tendencies, this statement should be directed at everyone. It's not just whites who are guilty of harboring racist thoughts, so why do those who get their knickers in a twist about it pretend otherwise?

In a book I read called Refusal Shoes, a work of fiction based on the author's real experience working in British immigration control, an Indian immigration officer deliberately denies blacks entry because he doesn't like them.

I'll bet racism like that coming from someone who - GOLLY! - isn't white would make a lot of people's heads spin!

Mr. Saxton:

You know P6, that by painting all white people with such a broad stroke of the brush with statements such as the above, about their reactions to black people (guilt/defense)that you're being a bit of a racist yourself for pre-supposing & pre-judging people.

You know, threads like this get interesting because some people get so touchy about the topic of race/racism that you begin to wonder if they've got something to hide.

But for all the talk about how we're all homo sapiens and need to get past our racist tendencies, this statement should be directed at everyone.

It's not just whites who are guilty of harboring racist thoughts, so why do those who get their knickers in a twist about it pretend otherwise?

lono, that right there was a brave post, and illustrates a progressive ideology at work, i would guess. but then what the fuck do i know?

Here's an amusing anecdote.

A friend of a friend (they're real people, honest to fuck) was taken to New York by her hubbie for a shopping trip thing (being from the northern ireland, this is quite extravagant, as you can imagine). Anyhow, this lady has a phobia of black people. Honest to god, like me with spiders (no homosexual quips you fuckin freudians). She maintains she's not racist, that's it's some psychological thing. I dunno. Anyway, the husband was somewhere else, and she got in the lift in the hotel (a very swanky number it was. the hotel, not the lift), and a black fella got in alongside her. She started to have a fuckin panic attack (im not making this up), and then two other black gentlemen entered, and she pased out.

Anyhow, all was well and she got to her room and got checked over and so on, and when they were about to leave, the fella at the desk told them everything had been paid for. There was a bouquet of flowers waiting for her, and a motherfuckin limo to take her to the airport. She wanted to know who had arranged all this, and so looked at the card on the floors, as you would. "Thanks for the best laugh i've had in years... Will Smith".

It was only will fuckin smith and his minders!!! Anyhow, the husband had explained the situation and apologised a million times while the wife was unconscious. Will had found it hilarious.

So there you go.

Will Smith has claimed he wil be the first black President. With political savvy like THAT, hell, he just might be...

Real people? Come on, The Duke, that's one of the oldest stories in the book.

That's okay, Phillip. I've noticed race discussions here need to have something humorous or ridiculous of something slotted in once in a while.

The Rappin' Duke has done us a service (duh-huh, duh-huh...).

I kind of wich you hadn't exposed it. It would have been interesting to see who else bit.

I saw/heard Henry Louis Gates, Jr. speak at my grad school many moons ago. He told a story about going for a Sunday morning walk with a friend, another black man, who was visiting. They were in Gates' own very upper middle class neighborhood, walking on the sidewalk, and wearing sweats.

As they turned a corner, they saw an older white woman walking toward them on the same sidewalk. They saw her startled and frightened look, so he and his friend simultaneously but without any planning, overtly tried to make the woman feel more comfortable by smiling big smiles and saying nice, articluate "good mornings" to her, and by giving her the right of way on the sidewalk.

Both he and his friend went into the knee-jerk reaction of trying to make *her* more comfortable, even though she was the one with the problem. They both knew they did it, but they didn't like feeling like they owed the woman extra evidence that they weren't dangerous just because they were black.

These were two 40-ish, educated, upper-middle-class men who happened to be black and who happened to be wearing sweats because they were getting some exercise on a Sunday morning. And yet they were perceived as a threat. Both men believed that it was their skin color that made the difference. They didn't feel that two white men in sweats would have elicited the same respose from the woman.

I think they're right.

As they turned a corner, they saw an older white woman walking toward them on the same sidewalk. They saw her startled and frightened look, so he and his friend simultaneously but without any planning, overtly tried to make the woman feel more comfortable by smiling big smiles and saying nice, articluate "good mornings" to her, and by giving her the right of way on the sidewalk.

Yep. That was part of what he talked about after telling the story.

phil... HAHAHA i HONEST TO GOD didn't know that was a spoof! I feel very cheated. i was only told it last night, so, there you go. Of course i do feel very smug now, that i can say to the folks in question about its a pack a nonsense.

haha god almighty. I been duped like a motherfucker.

Will Smith comes in and cleans our bathrooms when it fits his schedule, and we don't even have to pay him: helluva guy

well, it's a step-up from Men In Black II

Duped de Mondo has a nice ring to it.

I have, on occasion, came across an elderly person who seemed apprehensive of my presence, and just as the gentlemen in bhw's story, made the extra effort to put them at ease. It didn't occur to me that they had a "problem". I guess I "internalized the image" as well. Is that a bad thing?

Describe the image you'v e internalized and I'll tell you.

Obviously you are all deep seated so-called scientific racists and high officials of the Klan and other right wing front groups, as you are all well dossiered at my civil rights blogs...

Sorry. Just missing ol' girl a little. Only a little bit, though.

Plus, it ain't the same when I write it. I can't get that high-tone thing down, quite.

Now that I've established I'm neither sensitive nor hiding anything, let's see if you all are willing to reciprocate.

You know, threads like this get interesting because some people get so touchy about the topic of race/racism that you begin to wonder if they've got something to hide.

Wow, this response is unlike any other I have ever had. It was a whim when I posted this and promoted it up from my wee little blog. It's a pretty heavy topic, and a lot of me hoped it would disappear away. Fortunately, I guess I am asking the good questions. So, comment on and have a great holiday. I will be on the road for the next couple of weeks and so will most likely be unable to post. I'll still comment and read, but probably won't post.

Best wish for a great holiday my friends,

Lono

probably the most difficult and longet running issue is which interpersonal behavior and assumptions are related to race and which are not. Some people put race at or near the top of the mental checklist and some put it much farther down, and the checklist itself has often (quickly) become the subject of controversy and discord

probably the most difficult and longet running issue is which interpersonal behavior and assumptions are related to race and which are not.

nor would I, which is why threads like this have been able to flourish without acrimony of late

Okay, and you know I'm cool with it all.

But I'm still waiting to hear what differentiates "threads like this."

The people commenting is what differentiates them of late! It has been a lot more hospitable around here lately! People have been free to disagree without being labelled one thing or another!

Er ... RJ and I were both accused of being reptilian-brained racists by the estimable Shark. It wasn't as free from acrimony as you think.

And the "threads like these" comment was in reference to the fact that we were discussing race - and the knee-jerk reactions that would elicit from "sensitive" individuals.

MEM - I thought he was just calling you Neandertals!

threads explicitly about race

and I didn't say it's perfect, just better

"Describe the image you'v e internalized and I'll tell you."

It was a rhetorical question P6, so I'm not looking for help. But thanks.

To elaborate more explicitly:

In comment #40, bhw describes Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s account of encountering an elderly white woman who appeared "startled and frightened" by an encounter with the two black men. Gates' rationale for the womans percieved fear was racism. Which bhw described as her "problem". Never-the-less, Gates and his friend behaved admiribly, as gentlemen, but felt put out by having to provide "extra evidence that they weren't dangerous just because they were black."

My point is that I've had similar experiences with apprehensiveness, particularly elderly women, but no racial motive to blame. As Sandra said in comment #29, which bhw agreed with in comment #30: "I think you would find that most women agree with my comments regarding being afraid of ANY man or even person being anywhere near you while you walk on a deserted street." It could be true, I don't know.

Without more evidence, I see nothing to indicate that the womans percieved fear was racially motivated. So it seems almost as likely that the "problem" could have been Gates' in that he projected a race motive on to the woman where none existed.

It would have been helpful if you'd just said that. I took your phrasing for snideness.

I think Dan was being snide.

I believe one of the essential details about Gates' story was that it wasn't a "deserted street," but a suburban street in an upper-middle class neighborhood.

My response to Sandra was tongue in cheek. Notice the cat/dog comment.

Manning, I NEVER CALLED YOU A RACIST. Not once.

(Although I am tempted to call you a semi-literate moron...)

As a matter of fact, I stated one of the (FEW) defining aspects of this issue:

SHARK: "We're all 'racists'. The key to the game is recognizing that and overcoming it."

That "WE" is all inclusive, bubbles, which means Shark is implicated in the 'crime'.

Comprende?

The rest of this thread is mostly a bunch of moronic bullshit by people who aren't too skilled at thinking.

(That would be you, Manning. Remember this bit of your brilliance? ""...if you want insist on living up to the stereotype, then you will be looked upon with suspicion and fear." I suspect that you're not even smart enough to see how stupid this statement is.)

As to the 'reptilian' reference; read it again.

If you can read...

So this is the point where it gets personal.

I intended to post something, but I think I'll give folks a couple days break again.

I don't think Asians, Italians, or the Irish had to endure the "Coloreds Only" fountains, entrances, jobs, and housing. Slavery gave whites the heads up on the CONTROL of resources, including immigration policies and politics. I also don't think any of those groups endured slavery and all that it entailed such as
__being forbidden to read and write
__being SOLD from family, thus not being able to build upon generation to generation of inherited wealth or consolidated wealth, etc, etc.

We're are talking about a group of people, who on their own, despite our efforts,
__established schools for themselves (HBCUs) when they were flat out DENIED entry into ours for being black
__established their own loaning system through the church, because banks DENIED them loans for small businesses, houses, land, etc. Church funds from poor communities could only go so far
__established small communities of their own, etc, etc

But you know what happened.... their isolated success became a threat to us. These eventually freed blacks weren't contained like the Native-Americans we threw onto an isolated chunk of land. We said "No" to their every push for equity in this country and when they delighted in their own accomplishments among themselves... we got paranoid and made sure what little they were establishing was burned to the ground or priced out of existence.

People like to through up that statistic about black males in prison, and conveniently forget that Lady Liberty is a HORE. If you've got the MONEY to pay for the best representation, you can get off scott free for some of the most heinous shit known to mankind. If you are poor and get one of those shitty court-appointed fucks, who don't even review your case until "the day of your trial," chances are you are going to prison... let me repeat that....chances are, you are going to prison. We also like to conveniently forget that the police force is predominantly white with inherent biases when they "pick and choose" who they will pull over or give mere warning tickets to or outright arrest for driving through a stop light.

If we have any guilt, it would be that we have benefitted from the sins of our fathers and glad that the consequences of bigotry have fallen upon us.

First of all, it is not Racist to make presumptions.

Secondly, anyone who defends a moron like Bill Reilly is listened to with a huge grain of salt.

Thirdly, LA is different than the rest of the country.

Fourthly, regardless of what anyone tells you, black guys WANT to be seen as feared and menacing. It makes them COOL.

Fifthly, when did simple hooded sweatshirts become "hoodies"?
Hoodies are regular shirts with hoods, NOT hooded sweatshirts!

Sixthly, people will always be CLASSIST.
There is really nothing wrong with it.

Seventhly, why are asian immigrants so enterprising and successful? Are they smarter? Why do "blacks" with a mix of another nationality (even African) do better and are smarter?

I see another phenomenon. Instead of blacks becoming more educated, speaking better, and being more successful, everyone else is becoming dumber, unable to speak or write English, fat and lazier.

I assume this is a different ACLU

" The thing is, I saw two rich young black guys... and assumed they were pro athletes. Is that racist? I fear it is." Did they look like pro-athletes, were they in a place near the HQ of a pro team? Seems like deductive reasoning, but you didn't bother asking them, either, why not?.

Now, let's say that you were in a hotel lobby, and a black male drove up in an expensive car, if your first thought was "I'll bet that guy is a drug dealer/pro athlete, how else could he afford that car?" That would be racist in my opinion.

Another component of being a racist, or any other "-ist" is your words and your actions. Because of who you are, you will have certain thoughts and impressions, outside influences that can spring unbidden into your mind. If you have heard the "N-word" used as a slur can have that word spring into their head despite yourself. Now, the key is whether or not you allow that word to cross your lips, allow your fingers to write or type that word, allow that word and your impression of that person to treat them as less than another human being that make you racist.

When you all meet people, do you often imagine what job they have?

Yes, SFC SKY I was very near a pro-athelete facility (Broncos headquarters) and yes they did look like pro-athelets. They were decently buff and in atheletic wear.

NONE OF THIS IS EVEN REMOTELY RACIST.

Why is it that these questions are always asked by white people and NEVER the other way around. Have you ever asked yourself that ? This does not even deserve to be mentioned as "racist". Seeing ANY young person at a store buying very expensive things you might assume things. In this case based on more than just the fact that they are black. Fortunately many of the so called "stereotypes" about blacks and other so called "minorities" (they are not really minorities I can assure you this)can ALL be backed up by FACTS. Everything from Crime to Education to Divorce rates. And there are HUGE differences in the numbers when you compare them to whites. Not little differances HUGE OVERWHELMING DIFFERANCES. For instance Blacks make up only about 13% of the population yet are responsible for over 50% of all crimes committed in the United States. What ! You say. How can that be ? BECUASE THE MEDIA NEVER REPORTS IT. 1/3 of all young black males under 25 are currently serving prison or probation time. Outright Gang rapes (where the victim does not know the attackers) are almost an exclusively all black crime. Almost 95% Approx. 85% are committed against WHITE FEMALES. This is ALL ON RECORD. Don't listen to me. Go to the Department of Justices website ( www.usdoj.gov )or do a request under FIA. Everywhere in the world that has been traditionally white EUROPEAN has been sold out to a third world immigration invasion. Crime has skyrocketed and can be directly linked to the race of the person. Of course the Media NEVER REPORTS ANYTHING ON ANY OF THIS ANYMORE. On the contrary they PUSH and promote the opposite and convince people like you who happen to be white that they are racist for even experiencing normal feelings or using common sense. This dumbs you down to the little thigs. That way you can overlook more important things. Like your family and future. Becuase you are REALLY RACIST if you object to your son or daughter becoming "involved" (dating,sex,marraige) with a black person or other non-white. As a matter of fact you are truley a horrible person and should be ashamed. Furthurmore you need to be re-programmed and "rehabilitated". Dont worry if you dont know it yet becuase "THEY" will be the FIRST to tell you !

Has anyone noticed that lesbians usually have bigger nostrils?

I'm sure the millions of slaughtered Jews of the Haulocost would agree that only blacks commit crimes. Oh wait, the millions of slaves that died on the mere boat ride of the "Middle Passage" to America would agree too that only blacks commit heinous crimes. No wait, the millions of slaughter Native-Americans would also like to agree and, oh just in, the thousands of Asians that died of atomic bomb attacks would like to add to that as well. Oh hold on, the millions of blacks killed during slavery and civil rights activism, who have never seen their white murderers ever arrested or brought to trial to even be noted in the statistics would like to also agree. Oh wait, an innocent whisper, I believe the young black girls who have been raped while serving as maids in white households, who have never seen their victimizers arrested to be included in those statistics would too agree. Oh yes, the victims of the charming, sociable and educated white male serial killers want to say how much they agree as well. Oh my, a news flash just in, I'm sure the thousands of devastated families who have lost their jobs, all of their savings and retirement funds to greedy and underhanded white corporate executives, who hardly ever see a day of true financial hardship punishment themselves would like to also agree that only black people commit crimes worthy of note.

You idiots have been trained well.
More english tricks please!

I don't particularly mind blacks or whatever but sometimes, being British, I find that Pakistanis make a massive fuss over racism and I do harbour some hatred of them. When at school I was suspended twice, at a Grammar school in the West Midlands, for racism and it was just stupid crap. Like 'f*** all them Pakis' or a little anti-Muslim jingle I created. ''Jingle Bells, Allah Smells, bombing all the way, oh what fun it is to bomb the Pentagon today'' and I got suspended for a total of 3 days!

I was at school at a Grammar school in Birmingham, England from 1983-1990 and racism was beginning to become a serious issue, so I don't know how old this Wolfsberger guy is but in England, possibly more than the U.S. racism is taken stupidly seriously.

I mean it's even worse now, we have to pander to Muslims so's they don't get upset and bomb us again.

I think all human beings are inherently racist, in a sense, if only because primate studies have shown that even lower-level primates such as monkeys recognize & act on differentiations between "us" - i.e. their own groups - and "them" - i.e. everybody else. Those higher on the scale, like chimps, are even more cognizant of "us vs. them" & behave accordingly, so an argument could be made that it's programmed into our genes to be racist.

I admit I categorize people according to stereotype. There's an ad online for dating showing a guy with very dark hair. I remember thinking 'I wouldn't want to date him; he looks Italian', because to me, Italian or Italian-American men tend to behave in a certain way I find off-putting. First time I saw Barak Obama, however - nice suit, well groomed, smile - I thought: ooooo...nice educated well off young man - and CUTE! Oddly, it wasn't his race at all that signalled I thought he might be My Type, but his perceived economic/social CLASS. I have found after some analysis, that I have little or no trouble with race, as long as the person being judged/perceived is of the right socio-economic class. There's been a couple of studies done that also confirm this tendency: that overwhelmingly, people have less reservations about persons of any ethnic background, as long as the s/e class is considered to be advantageous or approved.

Frankly, I'd be nervous of a couple of very large young guys of any race, especially at night, in an expensive jewelry store, while I wouldn't be of a male/female couple, or a couple of women. Why? Well, not because of their race, but because the vast majority of crimes such as holdups, etc. are committed by MEN, and it's a known (as well as unconscious) fact that men accompanied by women are far less likely to be committing crimes, especially of violence. Bonny & Clyde were an anomaly, after all.

I don't think just mentally recognizing and/or typing someone based on their physical appearance is necessarily racist; it's when we act on those assumptions that our thoughts transform us into racists, for example, if you had noticed the two young black guys, assumed that because they were black they probably had criminal intentions, and called the police. Otherwise, it's more like if you're in the vicinity of a hospital, and you see someone in a white coat, you assume they're a member of the medical profession in some capacity, IMO.

Is anyone aware of the recent spate of federal civil rights lawsuits filed by Jewish landowners against the City of Bloomington in S.D. Ind. I understand Barbara Leonard and Seth Patinkin, both prominent Jewish landowners, were pushed out of town by anti-semitic City Officials, including Mayor Mark Kruzan.

You may or may not be racist, but you definitely need to question your motives for buying a diamond. Your lust for shiny objects may be a cause of suffering for slaves in Sierra Leone