Yeah, see, because OBL is so stupid that he thinks that this would help Kerry...?...

You conservatives have become absolutely shameless.

We're shameless? Kerry had to take a poll to see what his response to the OBL tape would be.

Don't kid yourself: Bush is Osama's man and always has been. So long as Bush stays in office, Islamic radicalism has no way to go but up. Bush is their fund-raising face of hatred, the guy who justifies everything they hate about America every time he opens his fool mouth.

That's why the American electorate is going to hand Bush's ass to him tomorrow. Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft -- in a few months, poof, like a bad dream, they're out of here. When those thugs are out of the way, Osama's days are numbered.

The arguement that the Iraq war has caused more terrorists to be recruited in plain language, is bullshit.

First of all who takes that census, who knocks on each cave, hideout, and safehouse, Abdul al-Stat? I think not. Somebody explain to me a reliable method to count those that whose very survival depends on living in the shadows. Nonsense.

Radical Islamic extremists are not like bumble bees -- "don't move, ignore them they'll go away!"

The necessary premise of the "more terrorists" argument is, If we'd only -- (choose one or more) -- (a) let them alone, (b) treat them with due respect, (c) allow them to drive Israel into the sea, then they wouldn't keep flying airplanes into our buildings, blowing up school busses, kidnapping and beheading civilians, etc.

These murdous bastards won't be happy until everyone's daughters are in burqas and they and the rest of western society are under the watchful eyes of thought-and-conduct police who'll correct any deviation from their approved path. They won't be happy until our civilization is destroyed and replaced with one that they've dictated.

You say we have pissed them off by liberating and bringing democracy to places like Afghanistan and Iraq? You're damn right it does. Does it make them so angry that they stream into enclaves of their fellow terrorists there to fight our military forces? Yep sure does, and bully for that! That most definitely doesn't extend the lifetime and ferocity of this generation of terrorists -- it puts them directly into the sights of the most effective and lethal military forces on the planet. As remarked by one of our soldiers of the fayhadeen irregulars who were charging our M1-A1s and Bradleys while firing off light machine guns from the tops of Toyota pickup trucks during the brief toppling of Saddam's armies last year -- with inevitable and spectacular failure as the result -- "It's the perfect war, because they want to die, and we're glad to give them their wish."

If they want to die because of a hatred of America and the freedom it may bring to the Middle East so be it.

BTW Rodney, How did the terrorists "justifies [sic] everything they hate about America" when they hit two embassies in Africa? Or the first WTC bombing? Or the hit on the USS Cole. (proceded by a missed one on the USS The Sullivans, also in Yemen. And ask yourself why gutless Clinton sent the second ship in there)

Not to mention an assasination of a US Ambassador.

Marc, you're totally off the map of reality with your 'The necessary premise of the "more terrorists" argument is...' list.

Here's the reality, a short excerpt from an item I blogged:

The president insists - reminding us of Pollyanna as he does so - that "we're winning the war" while also getting quoted as saying that "we can't win the war."

Outside experts agree with the latter statement:

'In Iraq, a problem has been created that didn't exist there before. The
events in Iraq have had a profound impact on the entirety of the jihad
movement.' Judge Jean-Louis Brugulere, French anti-terrorism investigator.

'Once these guys have gone to Iraq to train, they know how to use weapons
and explosives. That's the first level: Iraq as a new Afghanistan,
a Chechnya.' Pierre de Bousquet de Florian, director of Frances
intelligence agency.

'Al Qaeda is increasingly being invoked as an ideological motivation
of Islamic radicals.' Gijs de Vries, counter-terrorism coordinator
for the European Union.

'Destroying Al Qaeda will not resolve the problem.' M.J. Gohel,
head of the Asia-Pacific Foundation, a London think tank.

How is it bullshit, Marc? Who do you think we're waging war with over there -- a lot of old die-hards? Nonsense, as you say. The International Institute for Strategic Studies in London -- according to James Fallows' article in the October Atlantic -- found that "al-Qaeda was galvanized by the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, As of mid-2004 it had at least 18,000 representatives in sixty countries. `Al Qaeda has fully reconstituted [and] set its sights firmly on the USA and its closest Western allies in Europe,' the report said."

You say: "They won't be happy until our civilization is destroyed and replaced with one that they've dictated." This view was completely rejected by the bi-partisan 9/11 Commission. Again, as the Atlantic article reports, the Commission said that the motivation of Khalid Sheikh Muhammed -- the "mastermind of the 9/11 attacks" -- "stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with the U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel."

I'm not arguing any change in our support of Israel -- but it's important to recognize that the realities of the situation don't quite square with Bush's sabre-rattling scenario of a United States of Osama.

The arguement that the Iraq war has caused more terrorists to be recruited in plain language, is bullshit.

I've seen news interviews with insurgents in Iraq. Some of these people have day jobs and take up arms against American soldiers in the evening. Some people have come into Iraq to kill our soldiers. These people are not a military so they are terrorists. They behead innocent civilians. The war in Iraq created far more terrorists than there were before the war, there should be no doubt. I can't picture a busload of 50 Iraqis trucking all over the country to commit all the attacks and bombings against the Iraqi people and American soldiers/interests.

when i first heard of the tape i thought boy bush is one sneaky rat. what better way to insure his reeelection by having voters choose not to negotiate with terrorists. i saw it as his final way (at least till reelection ) to exploit or fears and use them against us. but real;ly who knows? maybe bush and osama..trained by our cia and partners in the carlisle corp. arent in cahoots. i just know that before bush we were a confident and secure country and ever since bush weve been scrambling for duct tape and canned goods. if bush is turning the world against us why in the hell would anyone vote for him?

Shark's "Satan Endorses Kerry"

the real divide here is between those who see the war on terror in its totality and those who do not. I, frankly, don't give a fuck if Iraq has temporarily made it "easier" to recruit junior terrorists. It's just another excuse, there are countless others until it is made clear to the Islamist world in general that theirs is a hopeless, stupid, losing cause. Iraq is part of that effort, would have had to be addressed sooner or later - with identical recruiting surges at whatever point - so it isn't a question of "if" but question of "when," and now was better than later.

It is the most absurd folly to try to fathom the logic of demented obsessives like al Qaeda, and then try to position ourselves to work within the perceived parameters they have laid down for us. This is exactly the kind of appeasement that led bin Laden to conclude we were weak and lazy, inviting attack.

Yes, "the real divide here is between those who see the war on terror in its totality and those who do not"

But Bush got it wrong.

After Afghanistan, he abandoned terrorism, except for lip service.

President Bush's decision to send in too few troops, without thinking about what would happen after the initial fighting was over, has left our troops more vulnerable, left the situation on the ground in chaos, and made the mission in Iraq much more difficult to accomplish. That is the truth.

Eric, I think the divide is between people who want to battle terrorism and people who "don't give a fuck if Iraq has temporarily made it `easier' to recruit junior terrorists." I voted against Bush because his arrogant, blundering, screw-you, I'm-right-and-the-hell-with-the rest-of-the-world logic has increased terrorism and, if re-elected, will continue to do so. I have zero faith in the ability of his leadership to extract us from the mess he got us into. And by the way, just what is it is the "hopeless, stupid, losing cause" of the Islamist world? World domination? Every woman wearing a burqua, as Marc sees it?

"...the real divide here is between those who see the war on terror in its totality and those who do not..."

The real divide is between the blind True Believers in Bush's Iraqi disaster -- and those who think it was the biggest mistake in American history, and about the WORST way possible to 'fight' terrorists in "totality".

Oh, and by the way: re. IRAQ?

We lost.

So how does that fit into your Big Plan?