It's a miracle!

Yes, it's a miracle this homunculus hasn't choked on his own vomit yet, or forgotten how to breathe.

I have to be sure to forward this to my Vietnamese neighbours, I'm sure they'll have something to say which can't be translated into english easily, but will be something like "me so angry, me hate you long time".

How the hell do you still believe we can "win" this "war"?

We "lost" the Vietnam "war" because casualties racked up so high they started drafting MIDDLE-CLASS kids, and then, to the shock of the world, the MIDDLE-CLASS suddenly didn't like the war.

And um, North Vietnam supported the peace protestors? Um, duh, they sort of had a stake in the whole thing. You think any American soldiers might have supported the protestors?

It should be "are intertwined."

(Lord, the skills of some of these 'I'm superior' guys leave a lot of to be desired.)

art -

please, spare me.

don't pretend to know something about stuff that happened 15-20 years before you were born, and then try to lecture those of us who were around back then on what's right and wrong about what took place, ok?

i'm a vietnam era vet, i lost one cousin and one classmate over there, and i've interviewed and profiled dozens of local combat vets (ww2, korea, vietnam) for my column with my hometown newspaper. i don't pretend to know what war is about, because only the guys who've actually served in combat really know.

i can tell you this, art. that respect and credibility are earned through your actions - not demanded on a web site.

here's what i recommend: do more than rj elliott. after you get out of high school, enlist in the military and then volunteer to serve in combat in iraq. witness a buddy on your right get his head blown off, and another buddy to your left get gut shot and die an agonizing death with his intestines pouring out of stomach like spaghetti.

if you survive, then when you come back and want to pontificate what war is about...you'll be surprised how many more folks will take you seriously.

Art, never mind the Vietnamese people, trycoming up with one sensible reply to this guy from Detroit , then I'll think you have something to say. Go ahead, tell me something.

I love to tick you guys off.

Art, ticks do nothing but spread disease.

So, where's the pesticide?

I think I will turn this into a daily thing. That way I can get some good editing tips by discerning people that correct internet essays!

Plus, the best thing! I get the enjoyment of reading your gasp at the sight of a different viewpoint.

Nice punchline, Jim.

Yes, we "gasp at the sight" of the viewpoint of 49% (or less, just basing this on four-year old numbers) of America, it's so completely and utterly shocking.

Have you ever responded to anyone ELSE's viewpoint? By any chance? Like we're doing to yours? Did ya notice that?

I was going to try and correct you, but realized that I would only being contributing to feeding an ignorant, blind, hateful, little twat.

So just go stick your wee head up your own commodious bunghole. Go talk with this guy.

Oh, you guys are so angry and tough.

Such a callow youth.

I would love to think the protesters ended an unjust war the U.S. should never have become involved in. But, I know that they can only take some of the credit. As historians such as Barbara Tuchman have made abundantly clear, the Vietnamese (yes, little yellow people who relied on pungee sticks instead of cluster bombs) ended the war by winning it. They kicked American and French arse. The U.S. could have become as mired in trying to control the Vietnamese as the French did, but it might still be there now. The lesson to be learned from Vietnam is that European and European-derived nations can no longer impose their will on Second and Third World countries to the extent they would like without paying a heavy price for doing so. I wouldn't be surprised if that lesson is learned anew as a result of the U.S. adventure in Iraq.

I did not ask questions if we should or should not have entered the war. I'm saying that the protestors broke our will to fight.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about, Art. Some advice: less writing and more reading. You can start with Tuchman's books. She is considered one of the best war historians ever. From there, I recommend Lewis Puller, Jr.'s Fortunate Son. Puller was the son of the most decorated Marine in history. He became back from Vietnam without both legs and much of his hands. Then Ron Kovic's Born on the Fourth of July. He is a quadriplegic who was beat up by Right Wing thugs during a protest. Like Puller, he came from a Right Wing family and had his eyes opened in Vietnam. If you need a break from nonfiction, Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried and Going After Cacciato, will be on topic but works of the imagination. I'm sure other posters will have additional suggestions. Despite the proud to be know-nothings that sometimes dominate comments, there are some smart, well-read people around here.

If those books are about the merits of the war, I do not need to waste my time.

Gosh, 85, we've not missed you.

If you are so hella confident that things are just going peachie over in Iraq, why aren't you there?

All you've done is prove you're an asshat, and I expect your handlers are just making all sorts of signals which equate to "shut the fuck up".

But that's okay, because the more stupid you appear, the more likely it appears that the USA will go for the less horrid choice.

But then, I'm sure there are all sort of casual Bush voters just waiting for you to grasp them and say: "you'se my bestest pal 4eva!". So if you vote for Shrub, you get this lifetime tool. Bonus!

Ripley : What's this "eighty-five" thing?

art -

i didn't think you planned on putting your money where your mouth is. much safer staying home spouting war slogans while someone else pays the ultimate sacrifice over there, huh?

another rj elliott type (ie, right-wing chickenhawk cyber-patriot).

Art, reading good books is not wasting time.

Well, I'm in a military family. Grandfather served in WWII in the Navy. Great-uncle died in WWII when his ship was sank. Dad was in Vietnam and was totally and permanately disabled from the war. Two uncles who had tours of duty in Vietnam.

I'm 17 right now. Turn 18 on June 25th, 2005. If I told you I would be joining the military, it would be a waste of time. It's not like you cynics would believe anything I say anyways.

Art, why insult the American military this way? It's really quite shocking for you to suggest that the highly trained officer corps or the heavily armed front line soldiers of the United States Armed Forces would let their will to fight be sapped by anything as paltry as a few protests back home.

Anybody who has taken a basic civics course can tell you that the freedom to protest is one of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed in the very Constitution our military is sworn to defend and uphold. Many, many articulate combat veterans have stated that they fought precisely so that people back home would continue to enjoy such freedoms.

But now you tell us that the American military is irresolute. You say our veterans failed to fulfill their mission in Vietnam because people protested against that war. You say our soldiers now on the ground will fail to fulfill their mission in Iraq if people continue to protest against this war. You say our soldiers will fail to fulfill their mission if people vote differently from the way you think they should vote.

Well, Art, I have to tell you, I think more highly of our soldiers than that. I believe their will to fight will not be undermined by the blathering of loudmouthed civilians like you. They will continue to defend your freedom to insult them.

But let me give you a little advice. Be careful how you phrase your theories if you're around some veterans who have been drinking. They might get angry enough to forget you have an inalienable right to insult them.

Art, I can tell you the last thing professional military personnel want to be near is brain-dead cannon fodder like you.

You are what gets real soldiers and sailors killed because you're stupid and you've swallowed too much stupid propaganda.

But you don't have to worry about enlisting, because if Shrub gets back in, you'll just be drafted.

The current US war machine isn't about professionals, just bodies.

I'm not insulting the troops. I'm saying that people in the Vietnam War spat at the soldiers in uniform. They called them baby killers, etc.

Now, the Iraq War has not even came close to Vietnam in terms of controversy. I think the protestors right now are being fairly respectful. But what is to say they will step back into their old chants and tactics?

Protests are intended solely to end the war. I'm not questioning their right to protest. I'm questioning the intelligence of doing it.

It sends a perception to the troops that our country is not behind them. We don't support what you are doing, but we support you? That is what protestors are saying, basically.

Most Vietnam Veterans will tell you, and I believe them, that they did not lose the war in Vietnam. They just left.

Do you really believe electing a President that does not believe in the mission in Iraq is going to actually help these troops to win the war he does not believe in?

Is John Kerry going to win a war he would not fund? Is John Kerry going to win a war that was a diversion? Is he going to bring allies for the wrong war?

Our soldiers can we win the War in Iraq, but we need to stand united in the goal of winning this war. Instead of sniping about the ones we have lost, why don't we focus on finishing the job right?

Underminded by me? At least I'm someone who supports their cause? Do you actually believe they think you think more highly of them?

Is it because soldiers 3 to 1 support the President that makes you come to the conclusion that I'm degnigrating the troops? Is it because Iraq War Vets and currently serving in Iraq are scared of a Kerry Presidency?

They will continue the fight because they believe in this President and they believe that the Republican Party will give them the tools to victory..not someone who claims to support the troops but not the cause they are fighting in.

Let me give YOU some advice. Do not preach to about supporting the troops when you pray they fail. You pray their blood in spilled so that the American people's spirit is sunk and they will elect John Kerry.

Don't deny it. What is bad for America is good for John Kerry's talking points. They, predictably celebrated when the 1,000th soldier died so they can talk about the great milestone on the campaign trail.

Don't preach to me about supporting our troops. Don't even cross that line. Your boy abandoned our troops as a young man, and he will abandon our troops as President.

Jim:

In the words of Teresa Heinz-Kerry: Shove it, you Neanderthal scumbag.

No, Jim... you and people like you get people killed in the name of peace. WWII could have been avoided if Neville Chamberlain grew a pair and crushed Hitler when he was weak.

Tens of millions of people were killed in the name of peace. Peace is a great thought. I wish we had peace. I wish there was no war. I wish there was not evil in this world. But the fact is there is, Jim. There is. And if you cannot own up to the fact that inaction kills, you are the one that is brain dead.. not I.

Art, since I have tattoos older than you, and spent years in the Royal Canadian Navy, and know four ways to kill you, one involving salmon mousse, kindly suck my crusty arse.

Oh, but you are insulting the troops, Art. Spitting in their faces, in fact.

You are making multiple cheap attempts to turn our soldiers into nothing but pawns in your election-season political mind games.

I'm not saying any of this to support Kerry. Nowhere have I ever said anything about wanting anyone to vote for Kerry. I'm neither supporting Kerry nor opposing Bush with the stand I'm taking here. I'm saying this to declare unequivocally that our support for the men and women in our armed forces must never be made conditional on the results of any particular election.

No matter how much you might want Bush to win, or someone else might want Kerry to win, using the troops as pawns to manipulate the voters' emotions is beyond the pale. And I'll bet if you try to pull this kind of crap in front of some veterans in a darkened tavern someday, they won't think very highly of your tactics either.

That's all I'm saying.

So when do we get to hear about your service record, Art? Some badges in Brownies, perhaps?

And pop quiz hot-shot: what year did WWII start?

That was a comment of the hilarious type, Jim!

Victor:

I'm sure if you ask the majority of the soldiers, they would not "beat me up in a tavern." (I have no clue why you keep bringing that up)

I give up, Victoria. This boy really wants to kill people. Or, more accurately, he wants people other than himself to risk their lives trying to kill people in other countries. I don't know what is going on with our youth. Seems that more and more of them are disturbed.

And, frankly, as I said before, if you are going to write entries that are worthwhile you need to know things. He should be reading, not writing.

I spent a couple of years under Her Majesty's Service in the Navy to earn this badge

<img src="http://blogcritics.org/mt/mt-comments.php?mode=red&u=http://www.resonation.ca/images/blogcritics/diverbadge.jpg" alt="">

So, before Art starts spouting off about serving in the military (and I'll note all of my male kin have been in the armed forces for several hundred years, we're kinda angry that way), it's time to put up or shut up, you wee poxie bastard. Because yah, we will kick the shite out of you if you start spouting off about armed forces if you aren't one of us. You don't belong until you're one of us.

Congratulations on your achievements.

However, I'm really not "spouting off" about your armed forces.......

However, I'm really not "spouting off" about your armed forces.......

So, what is it then, you're running off, having kecked yer pants, after making some boastie type sounds, fer fear you might get yer arse painted a nice coward red, yeh, red arse-painted, little wee boy!

And yer goin to run to yer shrub to whine thet th' 'nternashunal cummunitie durst call'd ye a whiny littl' suck'arse!

Whooss a littl' suck'arse.

In the words of a wise philosopher, "America, F*&% Yeah!"

curt - if you and kerry are so proud of his military accomplishments, why won't kerry sign the SF-180 and release ALL his military records? Bush has!

i can't answer that question, andy. maybe draft-dodger karl rove could find out. wasn't rove the puppeteer behind slandering john mccain's patriotism in the 2000 primaries?

I support our men in uniform, I've never been able to serve but would have loved for the opportunity. Too late for me now.

I find it a hypocritical irony that the Right would go on and on about the power and might of the greatest military force on earth, how it can single-handledly if need be, defeat terrorism, then in the same breath complain how history has shown us that this great behemoth has fallen due to a few speeches of peace advocates.

Speaks volumes about the power of peace and humanity, doesn't it?

The right to dissent is part of our right of free speech, the right which makes this country so great. Kerry served, was shot at FOR this great country, and earned the right to speak his mind. Neither he, I, you or anybody else can control how other individuals hear and interpret those words.

How long before the Right proposes limiting the right to dissent during a time of war for security reasons? How long before that proposal is no longer limited to times of war?

"How long before the Right proposes limiting the right to dissent during a time of war for security reasons? How long before that proposal is no longer limited to times of war?" let's not go into hyperbole and rhetoric just yet.

One's right to express one's opinion does not impinge upon another's right to vocally, vehemently disagree. IT does keep people from being beaten or jailed for expressing their opinions, but they have to have a strength of spririt and a bit of courage as well to say it and stand up to criticism, as well as a firm beliefe in one's position.

on another note, just because everyone disagrees with you doesn't necessarily mean that you must be right.

IT is a shame that none, or few of us here are able remain both civil and rational in expressing themselves and debating points of contention.

Lastly, I can only speak for myself in that I would continue to do my duty even if I was being spit upon in uniform. I definitely prefer the reality that most people are polite to me and my colleagues, so thanks to anyone who that applies to.

SFC SKI, I just hope you remember my first sentence where I said I support our soldiers in uniform. I have taken issue with the Commander-in-Chief though. But I do support our men and women in uniform.

I'm sticking with the right to free speech though, because I have to live under it, just like the soldier. People are free to condemn me from the pulpit, from the airwaves, and on the internets. There are long-term societal implications for this, like violence, murder, prejudical violations of rights, etc. But it's free speech, so there it stands. There's been a lot more than spit flung my way. And if I had been given the chance, I'd have been honored to stand there by your side fighting to further that right.

on another note, just because everyone disagrees with you doesn't necessarily mean that you must be right.

Do you mean this to apply to Kerry or to me? I'm not sure which because I don't know of any ideology of mine that stems from that line of reasoning.

a shame that none, or few of us here are able remain both civil and rational in expressing themselves and debating points of contention.

I would hope that you are not thinking of me when you say that. I would like to think that I have been civil and rational when debating. I have never called anyone a name here or labeled anyone other than with an ideological label, i.e. conservative/liberal/far right/neo-con/ etc. which should not be offensive to people.

Boomcrash, my post was not in a direct response to what you had written, mine just followed yours. I don't have a problem with you personally.

Mine was a more general statement on hurt feeling, flaming, and incivility on this and other forums.

Kurt:

You missed my point. I think John Kerry served our country admirably in Vietnam. There are a few questions raised by the Swifties in terms of his service while in the Navy, but I do not question his Navy service.

I question what he did after he came back. Groups he was affliated with were encouraged and likely linked with the North Vietnamese. His Senate testimony is another flag in my mind. "Cutting off heads, blowing up bodies...etc." That is what questioned.

Vietnam was a war that few understood requiring military service that was involuntary, had high American casualties at an accelerating rate over 10 years, occurred at a time when youth culture was aserting itself and finding its voice, which it found in the disconnect between what the government was telling it and what it heard from other sources, including returning vets. Feel free to compare and contrast with Iraq - I see about 20% commonality.

And I don't believe Art was saying that citizens shouldn't express their views, just that that expression may have actual ramifications.

Five children. You're forgetting Art.

Wow, how pissed off you can get about the positions of a child who can't vote, doesn't pay income taxes, can't marry his gay or not lover, isn't eligible to be sent to foreign lands to be killed (for a couple of months, but you gotta know, as soon as I find out what county that little fuck lives in, you bet his local recruiting office is getting some long distance calls), but he can face the death penalty. Well, I guess it's not all bad.

Not only is he a stupid kid, he actually represents stupid kids who are going to be putting you into the Abe Simpson Krusty Koncentration Kamp in Tiajuana (hey, hey, the happiest place on ... oh, I forgot)

Jim:

You are one funny guy. Do you actually have a life besides the one that is obsessed with trying to "diss" me? I'm really starting to question who is child on this site. Lobbing threats at me? Does that make you feel better?

I'll give you the only words of wisdom my generation can give yours (typed during a commercial during a broadcast on the other monitor of H20 on CBC, multitasking and whatnot): "Shut the fuck up, give me my french fries, and don't you dare spit in them, or I'll kick your ass, you little punk"

Hey Mac Diva...Whatever happened to our boy Curt?...Is he banned?...Looks like you were right about him asking the wrong question, although I notice that post was deleted, also...hhmmmmm...

Could be. Eric is not the objective person he pretends to be. He favors not very bright people who don't challenge him. Curt is a tough fellow, though. He will be fine. And, I don't think it necessarily a bad thing to take a break from this site, which is being overrun by the new wave of mindless minions Eric recently recruited.

Curt called Eric a name one too many times. I liked Curts philosophy on many things, but winced every time he did that. Eric posted a comment that 'the shit has left the building'. Curt is no more.

There is no "recruitment" for this site beyond the open invitation you find on the front page: whoever joins joins.

Eric - even though you just said that, I'm still not giving you your $50 back!

actually, the final straw was a threat to use "guns, knives, bottles, or fists" to resolve any outstanding differences of opinion

Andy Marsh has behaved in ways that are equivalent. Furthermore, as I blogged at Silver Rights today, there is a proven relationship between Right Wingers in the military and hate groups. As a teenager, when I visited cousins in Fayetteville, I was always told not to go anywhere near Fort Bragg after dark unless I was accompanied by an armed adult. My mother knew there were people there who would kill me wearing the colors of the U.S. Army. So why is Andy Marsh still here? Sure looks like political bias.

Andy has threatened no one, is in fact quite good natured. I have zero problem with opinions, beliefs, perspectives or disagreement - HOW they are expressed, as Boom mentions above, is another matter.

Interesting that anything personally negative he has stated has only been toward you, and these have been edited, by the way. I will also note that you began the personal attacks, dismissing anything he had to say, repudiating his intelligence, knowledge, his right to speak here.

And are you saying ALL former service people are to be suspected of being connected with hate groups? Or is there some other, slightly more specific, evidence?

I believe the ones who express extremist views and attack people of color are suspect.

you haven't said anything about me that Is TRUE!!!

Evidence??? you're asking her for evidence to to explain her nastiness??? YEAH..GOOD LUCK...

I tried to be nice...I passed the peace pipe...but this bitter person wouldn't except it...I'm not the bad guy here...I'm actually a pretty nice guy if you take the time to get to know me...I honestly believe you have no friends diva...there's no way you could have...and I promise you if you do have...I don't think I'd like to know them....


Ask ANYONE here who's been EVIL...who's been SOUR...who's been DOWN RIGHT NASTY...I bet...9 out of 10 will point to you diva...

You write bullshit about racism in the military that's ancient...and play it off like it happened yesterday...I told you I'd stay off your threads if you left my name off of it...but you continue to be a sardonic evil person...

Find someone else to detest..someone else to blame for your party's poor performance in this election...it's not my fault...maybe it has something to do with people like you and your evil BULLSHIT!!!

I really don't know...I know that you post links to extremism and lies...and frankly I'm tired of it...and I bet there are a lot of other people around here that are also...you scare people diva...they're afraid to respond to you because you turn EVERY issue into a race issue

I'm still waiting diva!!!