The only truly bad French film I ever saw was one that did NOT have infidelity. Anyway, most people fool around once or twice in their lives, but let's not let this secret out, Ok?......*wink, wink*

Men inherit the gene to reproduce with multiple partners. It lies within our subconscious, waiting to pounce. We enjoy sex with muliplte women in order to spread our seed......ugh, ugh, scratch, scratch. Women are instinctively attracted to stronger and bigger men because they feel protected....screech, screech, yack, yack....

So to force ourselves into solidarity with the same woman for 50 fucking years is a form of madness, a sort of modern-day chasity belt if you will. Some men succeed by wrapping pages of the Bible around their ever-growing libido. Sometimes it works, sometimes we have nervous breakdowns and rape little boys while dressed as a clown. Sometimes we get a picture in the fucking newspaper on the anniversary date (why are those couples never smiling in their photographs? - cloudy glasses, squinting, lips pulled back into a forced grimace....shiver)

Women falling in love with married men is a story as old as leaky French condoms. We certainly cannot choose with whom and when we fall in love granted, but we can certainly improve the odds by setting certain parameters. A good example would be - don't date married men! But of course that's like trying to tell men to not be attracted to lesbians (they are)........We are so special we can transform lesbians! Same with the woman. They are so special they can save the troubled man from this terrible marriage! They are so special, their love is so special, the man will leave the other woman! The woman can rescue him from the sorrows of a life unfulfilled!

Men are prewired to procreate, and it will happen until the end of humankind. No book will teach us otherwise, for the draw is too strong. It's safe to follow the brain, but it's fun to follow the heart (and other parts of the anatomy)......

well, i wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. it is natural, and it's not about that anyway for me i think., it is more to do with being able to give a partner what they need or want, regardless of animal instinct; of course we are not naturally monogamous, though monogamy does exist in nature; that much we do know. so maybe we are NOT. I'll buy that for sure; but what do you if you're need is a thing that is too painful for another... then i think that's where higher thinking comes in. But overall, yes, you are right of course. and of course, the French film thing doesn't even warrant a comment - we all know it and it's always some infidelity of some kind; but that said, it's more honest and open and handled differently and in a way that i can respect. Openness and honesty are the key. Fuck around if you must or want or are driven to and same for me, but let's all be totally up front about it and not lie. that's always been my point - the minute we lie about it is the minute we weaken our own argument. and yes, i do know, i've been on both sides of course.

thanks for reading and again, nobody would really debate much of what you say; it's all about how that is handled to me.

cheers,

srp

When it comes to affairs, sex, adultery and sweaty hands in cheap, temporary brownstones, "higher thinking" is usually well beneath the covers, so to say. As long as marriage exists, adultery will exist, and adultery will never entirely be socially acceptable, thus "openess and honesty" will immediately be forgotten. Openess and honesty is acceptance of the scars which will come from such extramarital affairs. I would rather have the scars than not, and no one really learns without experience, aye?

You're trying to give a dash of meaning with this bit of navel-gazing. I am saying the only meaning is the reality of genetics. No open discussions or honest answers between lovers will change basic facts. It's all animal wrapped in bathrobe anyway......Just make sure and drink good coffee, because the breath will still be bad in the morning......

There's really only one way to avoid this kind of misunderstanding - adhere to strong character rules, which is never an easy thing, or accept the messiness of relationships, sex and fidelity........I would have more respect for this post if your point was that all women should have at least one affair with a married man (or vice versa).......now THAT would be a brave stance........

Exactly right Sadi, the shadow life isn't worth the self-inflicted agony. And I enjoyed your walking on the titilating dark side for much of the piece only to draw back and warn against temptation - reminds of an old National Lampoon classic where a young man is maneuvered by a seductive voice on the other end of the line to get himself into a physically compromising position with his telephone receiver, only to be told his bill was overdue.

always a hot topic, but whatever. i've said my bit and that's that. is it really brave to be involved with a married man? my god, then i am a very, very very brave person indeed for having stepped to the dark side or whatever and fucking up the lives of so many people. if that was brave, then i'd rather be a coward. i'm sorry i did it - but that's just me. love comes and you go with it, that much is true. but i wish it had not come when we were both with others. that made it hell and painful and wrenching and awful. in the end, uyes, it worked out. and thank god, but not without great effort. but whatever... thats my experience. i'm sure you speak from personal experience too... whatever that is.

and eric, thanks as ever... i hadn't intended this to be a piece that anyone would get worked up about. if it's such a given that were just a bunch of rutting animals, then let's just let that sit and deal with that. otherwise, why the hell are we intellecutalizing somethhing when we are essentially animals? know what i mean...
in any event. that's all i have to say.
good night.

s.

No S., I had not intended for this to be such a hot topic either. My apologies for such ugliness. Never-the-less, a thought-provoking piece. I don't exactly agree with your stance and did indeed wish to do some intellectualizing - and my point was not entirely that we were a bunch of "rutting animals." Though once that aspect is partially accepted, then I think it decreases the wisdom of your piece, which I find rather naive. I respect your posts and your life experience has depth.

I shall leave quietly. Good night.

I'm with Sadi. It's about honesty. If you're going to have an affair, well, at least be honest about it to everyone concerned.

It seems more often than not that the Mistress falls in love with her Married Man and the dude is, in most cases, incapable of giving the Mistress what she needs: his love!

It seems most married guys who get involved in some extra-marital thing are in it for one reason: sex. That's the crux of it.

Now, there are also men, who are in for it for an emotional attachment, too, but generally a "distant" emotional attachment is about all they can handle. Once the Mistress starts asking for more of him, the relationship changes, it does end up sounding a lot like his marriage, like some committment thing that scares the hell out of him.

There are guys who justify having an affair by saying that they no longer have a sexual relationship with their wives and that sleeping with his wife has become like sleeping with his sister. It's all wrong and doesn't really turn him on. So, these guys go out and fool around here and there and if the dude is a really thinking, feeling kind of person, he's going to realize that that kind of behaviour isn't giving him much of an emotional connection. So, then these guys go on to the next step and find a long-term Mistress someone with whom he can make not only a sexual connection but also a special, new, secret emotional connection. It'll remind him of being young and in love although, he'd probably not let himself actually fall in love with her - - that's way too complicated!

This is where the mistress has to guard herself, because, this man will be so charming and wonderful, maybe just the way he used to be with his wife and you know, the MIstress will fall for it thinking "there must be something special about me! MAYBE he'll leave his wife for me?"

Of course, being a "relationship-kinda - guy", he doesn't want to hurt the woman - - either of them! He wants his ego (and his penis!) stroked as often as possible.

We may not be monogomous animals, but we are intellectual, feeling and ultimately, let's not forget, spiritual beings.

Making love / fucking whatever you wanna call it, in most cases, is not purely physical.

For me, it depends on who I'm with and how I feel about him. I'll admit, I have "used" guys (unmarried) purely for sex, but I let them know that, too. Most of them never seem to have a problem with it!

Of course, it comes with rules:

1. he can NOT spend the night

2. generally he shouldn't expect that I kiss or look at the him while he's fucking me

3. alcohol is almost always a must

4. he is here to service me!

I'm mentioning this to let guys know that there are women who CAN be "real men" about sex provided love doesn't enter the picture.

The trickey thing is, if the woman falls in love. Most guys will not leave their wives for the other woman because of the amount of money it's going to cost him as well as the fact that he may appear as the "bad guy" to his family. How could he be so shallow as to leave XX years of fine marriage, the kids, etc all for some piece of ass? The dude has his reputation! So, best just to keep it "simple". A little nooky on the side doesn't really hurt anyone, does it?

Now, men who DO leave their wives for the MIstress, I don't understand. Why can't they leave an unahappy marriage without the help of another woman? Like, why is it that so many guys (women, too, I guess) stay for years in their unfulfilling marriages and then finally leave it when they've got someone else to jump to? A lot of these people KNOW damned well that they're not getting what they need from their spouses, yet don't have the balls to shit or get off the pot then and there probably 'cuz they're too afraid of the unknown.

Frankly, these people are cowards. They don't end their marriage all because they might be without some sex for a few months? A year? WHatever?

Don't you think that most affairs begin because there's intimacy lacking in the marriage? No sex in a marriage is only the outpicturing of what's going on the couple's minds. No sex in a marriage generally means "I don't trust you" or "I'm angry with you" or any # of complicated human responses that can generally be traced back to, "I've lost my emotional connection to you and therefore don't feel inclined to be physically intimate with you". That's what the married couple should be working on and if they can't fix it, well, then it's time to move on.

Easier said than done, tho', but it seems to all come down to fear. Fear of not knowing, fear of being alone for the rest of your life, fear of losing a ton of money, fear of shame, retribution whatever.

I know it's a long complicated process, but think of the damage that could be caused to you and your loved ones by lack of honesty and lack of emotional maturity and integrity. I don't know of too many people who truly feel no connection to another human being once they've become long term, intimate, special lovers. Once you get to that level, things become very complicated and the potential for huge amounts of emotional pain for at least one person, well, THAT is the thing that people should "fear"!

Is there really anyone out there who's having a great time with their affair?

you're right and you also have a good grip and good sense of humor as well. i obviously don't have all the anwers here but i really enjoyed reading your thoughts as they help me develop my own more and more.

there are people who stay in a marriage for practical reasons or cowardice or whatever, and then there are people who i believe geniunely fall in love, thoug the marriage would have to be flawed in some way for this to happen in MOST instances though not always. No doubt, i cannot speak for all people on this so can't say with any certainty. All i can speak to is my own experience and that is clear and honest and that's it.

i never did what you have done and in a way, i think it's brave; i never really "dated" so was always with one person (well two really now - not at the same time, obviously - one long term relationsihp followed by another long term relationship... that's it.)

you're fortunte to be single and having fun ....

thanks for weighing in w/ your views. It really added some insight and was interesting...

cheers,

s.

It would appear that I am in the minority here. I am having a wonderful affair with a married man whom I enjoy very much. Perhaps this is due in part to the fact that as a relationship coach I understand and appreciate the dynamics of the situation and I have no agenda. I have no dreams of one day he leave his wife to be with me. Most men who leaves their wives enjoy the freedom and spread their wings a little and often times the previous affair ends. Unlike Sandi, I do not make demands. It is senseless and pointless in any relationship to ask more of a person than they are capable of giving. Next I have adopted the accept and cherish rule. That is to say that I accept the restrictions placed upon the relationship and I cherish the time that we spend together. Last, and this is very important to me-I love without expectation and I love a person for what they bring to my life and to my heart. There was a time when I was the "other woman" in my own marriage. My husband had countless affairs and I remained in the marriage primarily for the sake of my children. When he died nine years ago from Agent Orange, he told my older children from a previous marriage that he never loved me, but rather wanted children and after I had the two youngest, he felt that I had served my purpose. I will be the first to admit that there are times when I am lonely, but being in a monogamous relationship is not insurance against this phenomenon. Infidelity at its best often keeps marriages intact as long as the "other" understands the rules and that there is always mutual respect for each other. Communication is the key for success in any relationship but being honest and realistic with yourself is THE most important thing to to remember.

hi there,

obviously, these things are never black and white and anything i wrote here was not intended as such ~ like you, i've been on both sides of this coin and so i do understand very well.. you are right. to have no expectation is the best way to proceed. There is a great book that i read that you might find interesting... it is called "Letters to a Young Wife from An Old Mistress." Whether mistress or wife, it is a terrific find and shows benefits of both, as well as disadvantages... so check it out and see if you like it.

Thanks so much for sharing your personal story though and for weighing in. I appreciate it greatly. I only wish for you the best and hope things work out as you would like....

be well,

s.r.p.

I was recently in love with a married man, and all i can say is its true! DONT DO IT! I dont really feel bad for the wife because she is a evil person, but it ended with her finding out, and he continued to lead me on and then he just left me. I loved him and he claimed that i was the one, what crap. I am gluing myself back and slowly may i add. but i will be ok and i hope soon. I still wish on somedays that i will get the call that he loves me as much as i loved him and he wants to be with me. BUT THATS A FAIRY TALE and will not happen, so save yourself and just dont do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many years ago I got involved with a married man. He was much older than me and very sophisticated so it was an ego trip for both of us. What a disaster. He ended up dumping me for another much younger girl and he wasn't any too kind about it. His poor wife didn't deserve any of it. To this day, (many years later) I still think about it and feel anger and guilt. DON"T DO IT.

dear Vicki:

you and i could not agree more... this is always a thorny issue because so many people feel the tug of temptation without realizing that inevitably, it seems that pretty much all parties get hurt (well, maybe not all) but lots anyway. The wife, especially, does not deserve this.

As to the mistress, it's a tough thing: i would say that a woman should or would not do this to another woman, but that's easier said often than done. The pull of tempation is hard, often, as you clearly know, and i know as well (as do many others) and like you, others (self included) have been hurt (very) by such things - either on the receiving end or in the doing.

Few affairs end in a good way, and in a way, the worst possible thing, odd as this may sound, is that you actually fall in love with your lover and vice versa. What then? Then you are faced with the horrid choice (if you're both involved, or one anyway) of having to leave and necessarily hurt one or two other people (and possibly children if there are any, but let's assume none for the sake of argument).

Falling in love is not a choice tho. Having an affair is, however, a choice. We cannot choose who we are drawn to. Sometimes, in my experience, we can even fall in love without there ever being a physical contact - this happens - and even this can hard.

Life is nothing if not shades of grey. There are no absolutes here. I wish i could say one is absolutely wrong or the other absolutely right. It would certainly make life 'neat', but as you well know, it doesn't work that way. The best we can do, the best we can hope for, is that we fall in love honestly and with integrity and that in the final account, we all find some shelter from the storm - that, and a soft place to fall that is safe, that is tacit, that is between two, and that stays that way.

I've written a great deal about this, and thought about this a lot... as no doubt you have agonized. I'm so sorry to hear of the pain you have been through. As for the pain you feel to this man's wife (and he doesn't sound like a very nice man, i'll leave it at that -), i think you need to forgive yourself... at the end of the day, you need to forgive yourself ... that is the only real closure.

i hope this helps.

I am a wife with 2 small children that feels the pain everyday that my husband and his girlfriend "unintentionallY' inflicted on us. What gets me through the day is that my kids are my #1 priority, 2nd is work and 3rd is strenuous exercise. This has been going on for 3 months; he moved in with her to clear his head. I consider myself the fortunate person because I have the children and we will grow strong from this. I hope his girlfriend (who use to be a family friend that my kids liked) will never have to experience the pain that she & my husband have inflicted on us.

I have been divorced from my first and only husband for almost 8 years now and I'm still learning to deal with having cheated myself out of what I feel I deserved in life: being part of a family unit of a husband and my two children, happily together to raise the kids to be healthy and secure individuals. I was the girlfriend of this man when I was 20 and he was with his 3rd wife, except they both told me that their relationship was over, so I could just c'mon in. He proceeded to try to convince me she was crazy. I was too young to know better. At age 24, after he had cheated on me already, I unwisely became wife number 4 of this man, and then bore his children whom are the only reasons I don't 100% abhor ever meeting him. He was just too charming and charismatic, and was expert at making me doubt my own sensibility in favor of his. I should have known that if he cheated with me, he would cheat ON me, and that 3 failed marriages at only age 27 was a big warning sign. Stupid me.

Fast-forward 26 years to present-day. He had numerous affairs (I can still remember some of their names, but I will leave them out of this comment) and then, finally, repeated his habitual pattern of dumping his wife (me, #4) for his girlfriend, and making her his new wife (her, #5) as soon as legally possible. In my replacement's case, they married less than 30 days after our divorce was final. She is very jealous of me and has made it impossible to have a co-parenting relationship with my children's father, to their heart-breaking and irreversible impairment. Again, he has convinced her that I am crazy, and do not deserve any respect from him or his wife; a paradigm she is only too happy to perpetuate for our children.

This man has lived less than four unmarried years in his entire adult life of 35 years (he is now 53), and over half of those years were with me because I insisted I would not marry him any sooner than one year from the date of his divorce. His longest marriage was 13 years, with me. His only children (that I know of) are also mine. And he has convinced our children that he is the more stable of we two, and they now live with him, even though I don't do drugs, don't smoke (I quit a 25-year habit 2 years ago), drink rarely, and then in small amounts, and have only been married once. Even though he has admitted to them that he cheated on me with his current wife (only because our daughter saw her picture in his briefcase while we were still together, so he couldn't refute that.) Their father can't lay claim to even one of those accomplishments. And yet they are there with him. Our poor children are so deeply confused.

My point in all of this is that there are men who can't live without having a wife and a mistress, both. There are women who are good wives, who appear to become evil and deserving of being cheated upon, but who are neither, and would not even appear to be evil were it not for the fact that the man she loves and has invested in with children and her life-energy has put her logic and emotions in a blender because she just really does not want to believe that he could cheat on her and their children. Yes, he is cheating on the children too, because they rely on both parents to keep it together and stay mature for the children's sake. There are gullible, insecure women who will fall for these types and devour every honey-dipped piece of hemlock they dish out, and convince themselves that they can change the outcome this time. That they can neutralize the poison they are being fed. In relationships, things either are, or are not, what they seem. In infidelity, they are not what they seem on many levels.

My point is that I cheated myself out of the life I feel I deserved because I was unable to get out of a relationship that was not what it seemed. I overlooked the "un-rightness" of stepping into a relationship with him before he was completely out of his current one. With the same blindness, I overlooked the un-rightness of being in a relationship with someone who cheated and lied to me repeatedly. So, in a way, I feel as though I have brought this on myself. I tried to tell Mrs. Eller the 5th what she was getting into when she finally arrived in my life in person, what this man is about, but she told me, and I quote, "I don't want to know."

Hi Mrs. Ex-Eller the 4th; I've thought about this issue and lived with it and been, as I said, on both sides of the coin. Ultimately, it's on you to make the call and get out and get over... The man is never going to help you and the mistress well - why should she help you? She is looking out for her own interests, and in a way, i don't blame her. Remember, the man, this man, who screwed or is screwing you, is also screwing her at the same time. He is the hinge of the whole thing.... neither of you has what you really want. If anyone is the jerk here, it's him. Truly. It's just easier, i think, to blame the other woman. The other question, and this is tough and I had to ask myself this (and it doesn't mean i am flawed, just something ot think about) was this: why did i constantly put myself up against men who were unavailable in some way? Either married or married to me and cheating... ? It was and still is to some extent something i grapple with. 'm not sure I have found all of teh answers yet - I'm obviously no Delphic Oracle or wise old crone, but I DO know that most people will do what is right for THEMSELVES and we can pass judgement on that and say "it's sad," etc etc and why aren't people more giving, etc. but in reality, the best thing we can do is look out for ourselves and NOT build our world and our happiness around someone else.

That may sound cynically self-protective and it is and maybe i go too far, but frankly, i'm looking out for me from now on, whether i am the mistress or the wife and i would advise any woman to be the same. I know, sounds awful, but who else is going to look out for you? There is no Prince Charming.... we remain Sleeping Beauty, hermetically sealed in our narcoleptic coffins just waiting and waiting and waiting for WHAT?

He ain't coming. Live life, and if a man can add to that life, then great - keep him. If he causes pain and takes away from that life, then enough. It's time for him to go. Just be clear about what is really going on here.

I could write a ton about this, and like i said, it's important not to demonize the mistress. I know a situation right now in which a man is involved with another woman (he is married) but his wife beats him (literally and badly), so tell me, which is worse and is he donig the "wrong" thing? Any brief happiness he may find with his lover, to me, he has earned and deserves. Yes, perhaps he should just "get out" of his terrible situation. NOBODY deserves to be beaten. NOBODY. Yet he lives with this every day and trust me, it's not so easy to just walk away, before you say it. It's a tough situation. My feeling is that any happiness he has wiht his lover, to see him smile, perhaps this whole issue is more grey than we like to think of it.... few things in this life are black and white, but i can say with certainty that beating another person is ALWAYS and ABSOLUTELY wrong and illegal! As i said, easy to say "walk away" but harder to do. So is his happiness then "wrong"? I suppose i have studied philosophy and ethics for too many years --- I don't know. I just think that everything is context. Life is awash in a sea of grey.

Your situation however sounds quite clear cut.

my best,

s.r.p.