Thanks Evil, again, the bottom line is that Islam is in dire need of a Reformation, of admitting that the words of the prophet are confusing, contradictory and in need of interpretation, as is the Bible. And those words were written in a specific time and place, under a spcific moral code, and that code must be allowed to evolve as humanity does.

We interpret the Constitution and that was written only two+ centuries ago.

The subjugation of women, the conjoining of chuch and state, and the perceived static nature of dogma, and absolute exceptionalism are the foundations of Islam's failures, now with hundreds of years of proof against that failure.

WOW, never really understood religion, except it seems a good excuse to kill.

This Islamic/Koran stuff I can't get a grip on at all. Woman beating? Send an army load of dykes on bikes that direction and beat a few guys asses. Like hamburger stuffed in their underwear...

I hate that shit...

peaceloveguidance

Considering that spousal abuse is of epidemic proportions in the United States, and probably always has been, this culture must be in need "in dire need of a Reformation," too. Furthermore, since rape is a much more significant problem in the U.S. than elsewhere else, maybe our culture is in need of even greater reformation.

Efforts to promote racism against Muslims/Arabs by claiming that problems that are cross-cultural are theirs alone are dishonest and pathetic. When the U.S. has solved the glaring problems of rape and spousal abuse, not to mention the nearly 30 percent gap between wages for men and women, then Americans can beat their drum. Until then, they need to clean up their own back yard.

Typo: Anywhere else.

I also meant to point out that this sermon, by one cleric, is being treated as if it represented all of Islam, when obviously it doesn't. Any interested party could easily post a sermon by someone on the religious Right that is equally offensive, but not representative of all of Christianity.

I am beginning to wonder if every thought in some people's heads has some kind of racial, ethnic, sexual preference or religious animus attached to it. One can get that impression from reading some Blogcritics. If they are not hating on one minority group, they're hating on another.

Mac Diva,

I guess one thing to point out is that in the USA it is law that one can't go beating a woman (or anyone else). One can be sent to the big house for such crimes. the USA is way ahead of the game in that department....

peaceloveguidance

Muslim countries have laws against assault, too. And, as was long the practice in the U.S., those laws are ignored when people want to ignore them. Even today, there is a vestige of that in the U.S. Spousal abuse is a major problem among policemen. So, they are often sympathetic to the abuser, not the victim. Spousal abusers do not get prosecuted as often or as seriously as they should. This is the kind of complexity that occurs in reality, not the Americans good/Muslims bad sophistry of the entry above.

Nor does this piffle hold up when looked at from a comparative religion perspective. There is plenty in the Bible that has been interpreted to support male supremacy. To take Islam to task for the same thing while ignoring Christianity's role in oppressing women is ignorant, meanspirited, biased or all three.

Leave to MD to completly miss the point and cry racism. I wish I could say I didn't see this coming, but I did. MD, your defense of Muslim law allowing for the beating of wives is pathetic at best and stupid at face value.

And it's not represented by all Islam? This guy's speech was on TV in Qatar. Television in Muslim countries is controlled by (guess who?) the government. This speech was pre-approved by the Muslim government there. If it weren't, it wouldn't have aired. Nothing that's not state-approved airs on television there. Comparing that to a speech by someone on the "religeious right" who has full rights to free speech in America is null and void. The speech I posted has full Muslim state-sponsored approval. Nothing like that exists here.

Are you even reading what I wrote? Spousal abuse is ILLEGAL here. Yes, it happens here, but it is condoned in Muslim countries. Wake up and smell the coffee. That's not racism, that's a fact. I didn't say wife-beating only happened in Muslim countries, I said it's only LEGAL AND ENCOURAGED there.

And here's another clue for you, since you don't seem to have any. Muslims are a religeous group, not a race, therefore racism agains Mulslims isn't possible. Muslims worldwide consist of any number of races, black, white, Arab, etc. So take your race-baiting elsewhere, it isn't going to fly on my post.

And as for this:

"Nor does this piffle hold up when looked at from a comparative religion perspective. There is plenty in the Bible that has been interpreted to support male supremacy. To take Islam to task for the same thing while ignoring Christianity's role in oppressing women is ignorant, meanspirited, biased or all three. "

Sure, the Bible suppports male supremacy. That's how things were a few thousand years ago. But guess what? Christianity has progressed since the sixteenth century. See, there was this guy named Martin Luther who nailed a list of complaints up on his church's door back in 1517, which brought on the REFORMATION. Muslims have yet to experience this, since to do so would be to sign your own death warrant. As for your charges of being ignorant, meanspirited, biased, or all three, I submit to you that you qualify for all three.

You said:

Being an American, it's hard to believe that this is still the predominant way of thinking in Muslim countries. It boggles the mind.


Yet, you've offered not an iota of proof that wife beating is "still the predominant way of thinking in Muslim countries." Quite the opposite, you've taken one cleric's sermon and tried to convert it into a smear of millions of people all over the world.

Then, you ignore a world, and American history, replete with oppression of women. As if that ignorance is not enough, you now babble about the Reformation having something to do with gender equality. It did not. One would have a hard time fathoming a more silly claim. But, there is a more silly claim. That, somehow, this has something to do with freedom of speech. It does not. Obviously, someone does not know the definition of freedom of speech. The claim of the entry is that Muslim countries support wife beating. Again, a single speech from a single source in a single country proves nothing of the sort. Nor does the speechifying of a male supremacist cleric here or one there differ significantly. They are both supporters of oppressing women, just using different sources for rationalization.

The truth of the matter is easily grasped by reasonably bright people. Oppression of women is a problem worldwide. Religion is sometimes used as a tool to support male supremacy. The religion used for that purpose can be just about any -- Christian, Muslim, Jewish, animist, etc. To claim that only Muslims are oppressors of women is to lie and lie big.

Two weeks ago, I had to, at length, debunk the demented raving of a Right Winger trying to justify slavery. He revealed the same kind of failure to grasp what the issues are, lack of knowledge of history of any kind and jingoistic inclinations as evident in this entry.

As for the claim that dehumanizing Muslims is not the intent of the entry, it is laughable. Propaganda of this type serves no other purpose.

Hey, according to this cleric's wife-beating criteria, I hit the trifecta! I'd be, like, the Hedda Nussbaum of Islam.

Allah is good.

Mac Diva, OK, I just got back to blogcritics and saw your comment #6 responding to mine. Cool. All I'm trying to say is that I know nothing about any religious anything. Nor do I care to. It is all a fucked up deal. Anyone trying to tell me how to live can F.O. and D. I absorb good theories that might apply to a peaceful, healthy and successful life. But, don't mess with anything else in my life, or else...

Tapping into the faith in something bigger inside yourself is my deal. Be aware of the energy from all living things on this planet.

The violence against women is something in this world that really pisses me off. Any guy who would go and hit/violate a woman for any reason (there is no good reason unless she had a gun pointed at him or something) should get his ass kicked.

Then, there is the problem I had. Here in Seattle when a call is made to the police for domestic disturbance, someone has to go to jail. No questions asked. This aspect of law came about when a judge let a domestic abuser go, he then immediately went home to kill. He did. Judge made a bad judgement.

My problem was that my wife has severe bi-polar disability. Before we married she would have an occasional "episode" of screaming, breaking things, etc. Well, heck, the neighbors call the police. They show up. I go to jail. Simple, take the guy. Makes sense as a general rule. I am released the next day after it is figured out, no charges. They need the time to take a look at wife's rap sheet (bi-polar? You probably have a rap sheet...) and check on the circumstances (no hit marks, etc.). But hell, even a minute in jail sux.

I mean, I am so anti-violence against women it sux even being thought of as such for just a second. It is like I have a computer chip in my system that will never let me commit any sort of violence against any woman.

Wife is now on meds that control the problem quite well. No problems for years. She is not experiencing the pain caused by such a disorder. We are doing well as a married couple. Love, look to the core of the person...

Anyway, no matter what religion, violence (sexual violence included, be aware of coersive rape! Fucking some guy just to get rid of him!!! That will make me commit some sort of violence against a male!!!!!) against women is sick and must not exist in any culture.

peaceloveguidance

We are all aware that there aren't ANY differences between Christianity and Islam, that there isn't a single doctrinal, practical, or cultural difference; that Islam, as practiced anywhere it has a say in govermental affairs, has yielded nothing but peace, prosperity, good relations with the non-Islamic neighbors, and a bounty of opportunity and freedom for women, non-Muslims, and Muslim reformers.

Every day of the motherfucking week, you hear one Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist religious figure after another deliver reasoned discourse on the pleasures and necessities of wife-beating, on the need to keep women uneducated, covered from head to toe, subservient, out of sight and under control.

And to say otherwise is racist, religionist, bigoted, blasphemous, and an abomination. Allah fucking rules.

"you now babble about the Reformation having something to do with gender equality" - I never said any such thing.

"To claim that only Muslims are oppressors of women is to lie and lie big." - I never said anything like that either.

I find it pointless to try and reason with an unreasonable race-baiter who attributes things to me that I never wrote. It seems you also do that a lot to Al Barger, I saw him mention it elsewhere on the site.

Saying I said things I didn't discredits any point you might have had, if you actually had any.

Neurotics build castles in the air and
psychotics live in them.MacDiva delivers
their newspapers.

DJ7, ah shoot, MacDiva is alright. I wouldn't thrash on her.

peaceloveguidance

The best way not to have illogical, bigoted arguments shot down is not to post them. The premise of this entry -- a sermon by a single cleric shows wife beating is supported by all Muslims -- hasn't a leg to stand on, unless one supports the bigotry. If one does, nonsense such is this is to be praised. Actually, this entry is nothing more than the use of a falsehood to dehumanize Muslims. It is very much like the slavery is beneficial entry of a couple weeks ago, not providing any accurate information, but meant to incite hatred against a group of people. Not surprisingly, those who want that group of people, Muslims, to be hated support this kind of propaganda.

As I said before, Americans have one of the worse records of rape and domestic violence in the world. Instead of projecting onto other peoples, Americans need to clean up their own back yard.

Thank you, Mac Diva. Well said. I'm with you 100% on your statement (#16).

peaceloveguidance

There's nothing bigoted about my post, it is a verbatim quoting of a Muslim cleric. And how is directly quoting a cleric a falsehood?

I had nothing to do with the slavery post you keep referring to, I didn't even read it, but you're trying to make it sound like it was mine, it wasn't.

I don't want Muslims to be hated, but it's beneficial for people to see what exactly it is that they stand for. There's nothing bigoted (I see you've changed your card from racist to bigot now that you've been proven wrong again) about that.

Rape was not mentioned in my original post, and has nothing to do with this discussion.

And as I have said before, domestic violence is illegal here, and state-sponsored in Muslim countries. That's the difference.

I've got an idea. Why don't you move to Qatar for a few years and then report back to us on how you were treated there? Oh, and while you are there, try saying anything you post here in public and see where that gets you.

You might say that the rantings of this one cleric do not represent the beliefs of all Muslims. Fair enough.

However, the Arab/Muslim world does have a very strong general reputation for being especially brutal to their women. I won't claim the anthropological expertise to make any informed judgment of how much those cultures deserve their bad reputation. It does, however, seem consistent with most of what things I have seen.

America does have higher rates of certain types of crime than some other countries. However, I doubt the factual basis of your claims that we have extraordinarily high incidence of crimes against women.

In short, I suspect that if I were a woman, I would be even more glad than I am that I live in America rather than Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

Evilwhiteguy, OK, great, you answered a question for me to assist in making a judgement. "domestic violence is illegal here, and state sponsored in Muslim countries". You probably said that above, but I just did some speed reading on this thread.

With that knowledge that means that we would have a high reported violence against women rate here. You can report it! And get response. We probably lead the world in tackling this problem. No matter what, we would be the highest reported sex crime nation in the world. So in a Muslim country this shit goes on all the time unreported. No stats.

So anyway, I guess I will give Mac Diva some perspective on statistics. But I'm with you Mac, let us just start at home and totally clean this shit up.

peaceloveguidance, goddammit!!!

Now I understand: this post should not exist because it may foster ill-will towards Islam - anywhere and everywhere the mentality expressed above exists and is n fact sanctioned by the state, that ill-will is deserved.

And, another point is now clarified: no one may speak on any issue where their own country is imperfect. Okay, time to shut down the site because there is nothing left to talk about. The US is perfect on zero issues, although I am unaware that any state, local or federal body condones violence against women, which strikes me as a rather significant step in the right direction.

And, Douglas is 100% correct about reporting: it would be interesting to see the statistics for every country in the world for actual incidents of violence and sexual assaults against women.

Eric to the above you should add, "and the convictions and penalties for thoses crimes" as well.

Not all Muslims support wife-beating, especially in America. Maybe that is because in America a wife-beater can face jail time, but in many countries where Islamic Law is the only rule of Law, it is more accepted.

Honor Killing to be the next topic?

And, an important point has been overlooked. The outfit supplying the interpretation of the sermon, the Middle East Research Institute, calls itself a source for Islamic news. But, in reality, it was founded by Israelis and takes a Zionist slant. Muslims are treated in a propagandistic, 'they are not really people' way. Some 'objective' source.

A favorite of people posting propaganda is not to use sources. Their second favorite thing is to use biased sources. If the source was not biased, and therefore suitable for the purposes of the blogger, I don't believe we would see it being cited.

"A favorite of people posting propeganda is not to use sources."

You describe your own comment very well.

From their website:

Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization. MEMRI's headquarters is located in Washington, DC with branch offices in Berlin, London, Jerusalem, and Baghdad, and has a project active in Sweden. MEMRI research is translated to English, German, Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish, and occasionally Turkish and Russian.

MEMRI is a very well known and reputable organization, with no record of dishonesty- despite the predictable accusations of our own [edited] Diva.

Perhaps you might fault them for their obviously "biased" position of being against Islamic terrorism. Perhaps they should remain neutral on that so that they might be perceived as more "fair and balanced."

However, even at that, I've never heard of this organization ever being accused of mistranslating a document. It is the imam's own statements that are being cited against him.

Let's not forget about those charming
Islamic practices of female circumcision
(many Islamic women and girls die from
this every year),the stoning to death of
women convicted of adultery and those oh
so charming pre-marital virginity tests
that women in the Islamic world have to
submit to. Lovely,eh? Allah Be Praised.

LOL! I am the one who researched what MEMRI is, not the perpetrator of the entry. I was generous to do his homework for him.

Since I don't read Arabic, I can't vouch for the accuracy of the translation. However, bias can be executed by citing mainly or only derogatory material about the subject of attack. Here -- Muslims. Considering the lack of balance on the site, that appears to be MEMRI's approach. People turned to a Zionist outfit for Arabic news because so few media in the West have translators. Hopefully, we will get objective translators as more reporters and researchers learn Arabic.

What research? You have provided none. All you have done is say they are Zionist, that's not reasearch.

Actually, it would be much more appropriate and meaningful to hear from actual Muslims on the subject, American or otherwise.

Is this sermon representative of a significant portion of what Muslims believe and practice or is it not? I have read enough translations echoing this to think it is indeed representative of a significant portion of the worldwide Muslim population, and certainly of where Islamic law is in force.

I am unclear as to what is being defended here.

I gather the perp is defending his right to post propaganda.

What I am saying is that a single sermon by a single cleric in a Muslim country, translated by Zionists with an agenda of their own, is not proof that Muslims condone wife beating. Frankly, there is no contest. Not only does the entry not have a leg to stand on, it doesn't even have a little toe to bend.

Who's posting propeganda? Oh right, it's MD, the perpetrator of race-baiting. Making claims with no backing, not a single link citing her so-called "research". Calling someone a racist when they're talking about a religeon. If you're going to call someone a racist, at least know what the word means before throwing it around so readily. Try www.dictionary.com, it's free.

And if it's on a state-sponsored television station, and the state is governed by Islamic law, guess what? That makes wife beating state-sponsored by Mulsims.

The Islamic Affairs department of Saudi Arabia's Washington embassy says wife-beating is permitted in accordance with Quranic verses and Hadiths, or sayings of Muhammad.

The department quotes an Islamic source that says, "The husband's rights on his wife are greater than hers over him," and another that says, "Men have a supervisory authority on account of the physical advantage they possess ... ."

The department says the Quran authorizes a husband to beat his "disobedient wife."

Based on the Quran and Hadith, this disciplining measure may be used in the case of "lewdness on the part of the wife or extreme refraction and rejection of the husband's reasonable requests on a consistent basis."

That's from Saudi Arabia's embassy in Washington, so it's advocated in the US as well, even though it's illegal.

A prominent Muslim-American leader, Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, answered the question, "Does Islam allow wife-beating?"

"It is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband in the house," he stated. "He is the head of the household, and she is supposed to listen to him. But the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute among them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to patch up the rift and solve the differences.

"However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation.

Siddiqi said the Quran is "very clear on this issue."

On a Saudi television show titled "Disciplining Wives and Children," Jasem Muhammad Al-Mutawah discussed the issue while holding a 10-foot pool cue which he said some couples keep in the home.

He explained when it is permissible to use the rod and what types of wood they are made from.

They have a show called "Disciplining Wives and Children" on television which tells you what kind of wood is appropriate for use on one's wife. Sounds like an episode of Leave It To Beaver. Not.

The May 22-28, 2003 issue of Al-Ahram Weekly featured an article by Lina Mahmoud on violence against women shown on Egyptian television. A media monitoring project conducted by the New Woman Research Center and the Media House, an independent production company, covered 18 television dramas shown during Islamic holy month of Ramadan in 2002.

The study said "audiovisual media has a great influence in shaping the collective consciousness of Egyptians. The extremely high illiteracy rates in Egypt, among women in particular, give media an uncontested role in dictating people's behavior and ideas ... ."

The report showed all of the programs included scenes of violence against women perpetrated by "the heroes of the episodes," those "who are closest to the hearts of the audience and hence have the largest impact on them."

"Just as disturbing as the portrayals of violence against women is the lack of public outrage to them," the study said. "In many cases, observers responded with either indifference or approval, making such aggression seem commonplace or justifiable."

The majority of the women portrayed in the television episodes were housewives, according to the report.

After completion of the report, a documentary was filmed in which people were questioned about their reactions to violence in television dramas.

"Women deserve to be beaten," responded one viewer.

"A husband should beat his wife if she does something wrong," said another.

Perhaps you'd like a quote from the Koran...

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

4:34

Hell, even France is deporting the Muslim preachers of wife-beating.

"An Algerian-born Muslim cleric who said wife-beating was justified in cases of adultery has been detained and will be expelled from France, the Interior Ministry said Tuesday."

That was just back in April.

Spain takes a different approach than France. Jail time.

In a refreshing instance of Europeans declining to bow down to the idol of multiculturalism, "an imam was sentenced to prison in Spain on Wednesday for inciting violence against women in a 1997 book that gave detailed instructions to Muslim men on how to beat their wives, judicial officials said."

That was in January.

"I am beginning to wonder if every thought in some people's heads has some kind of racial, ethnic, sexual preference or religious animus attached to it."

Wow, how about you hold up a mirror? Liars assume everyone lies, and cheats assume everyone cheats. Maybe you ought to check your own thoughts on racism, because I for one believe that you, the queen of accusing everyone of being prejudiced, is at the top of the list.

Vic

Yeah, MD is living in a glass house on that one.

I would say this litany of citations and examples of Muslim support and justification for wife-beating rather well supports the original post. This is not an extreme view, this is not an unusual view, this is not a view that has been ostracized as fringe by the greater world body of Islam - thuis is a view that only appears to NOT hold sway where Islam is not the dominant religion, and/or where sharia is not the law of the land.

There is nothing misleading here, there is nothing that says all Muslims condone wife-beating here. There is a well-documented post saying that Islamic doctrine still supports wife-beating as legitimate and necessary.

Is this a good thing? Is this a supportable thing? Is writing a post reflecting upon this somehow "propaganda"?

One can only bend over so far backward to ignore there are REAL differences between cultures and SOME of those differences are in direct conflict with values that many of us hold dear, including the legal equality of the sexes, and right of women everywhere not to have the shit beaten out of them by their pious Muslim husbands.

Does wife-beating exist everywhere on earth? I am certain it does, but there are relatively few cultures in which it is legal and defended by religious doctrine - perhaps this is a point worth noting.

I am still waiting for one actual Muslim to defend this practice or to deny its existence, or simply to reflect on their own views and/or experiences.

Those women who beat or kill their kids,those women deserve to be beaten. Those whores need to be spanked soundly also.

Spousal abuse is something that many woman feel can be corrected and the man treated. However, through experience I can say that a spousal abuser can lay dormat for many years before his anger and abuse surfaces again. Whether they can really be changed is questionable.