good good michael moore won....now the americans should apologise to the french for the good advice they gave regarding to the usa b4 the war :) ...if i had my way,the american soldiers who abused the iraqis like graner and sivitis and england and sabrina should be given severe beatings around the clock...then placed in prison and the key thrown away...only then justice will be done to dumb americans...

Excuse me, Maradona, but doesn't fish rot from the head down?

All show trials do is perpetuate a fraud. While the guilty take off stage left.

"now the americans should apologise to the french for the good advice they gave regarding to the usa b4 the war :)"

Maybe the US should apologize to the pacifists for failing to take their good advice regarding WWII...

"if i had my way,the american soldiers who abused the iraqis like graner and sivitis and england and sabrina should be given severe beatings around the clock...then placed in prison and the key thrown away...only then justice will be done to dumb americans..."

So...we should punish prison abuse by...abusing prisoners? Yeah, that makes sense...

It is not surprising that Michael Moore's "Farenheit 9/11" received a standing ovation in Cannes, from a crowd that consists of mostly French Europeans and liberal, anti-Bush Americans.

Until I have the opportunity to examine the allegations, the sources, and the journalistic integrity of the film, I cannot comment on its' content, but I must begin as a skeptic. It is well documented that Michael Moore has been known to stretch the truth and outright lie both in film and in interviews on more than one occasion, and he makes no pretense of having an anti-Bush, anti-conservative agenda in making this "documentary."

It always amazes me the extent to which people on all sides of a political issue intone the "truths" that support their previously held agenda and conveniently disregard the rest.

the us should apologize to the pacifists (and so many other humans) for a seemingly infinite number of reasons...

congrats to mike moore! just bought bowling for columbine for my nephew and with any luck, he and i can see fahrenheit 9/11 together soon.

Bowling For Columbine was full of lies. You knew that, right?

i know that moore is flawed. i also know that the "lies" are in premises he sets up -- the major facts presented are, indeed, facts. even his egomania doesn't stop him from getting facts right. my nephew, a most intelligent and honorable 19-year-old progressive, knows all this too. both of us are measured in our support for moore.

He pretty much lied several times in BFC. Eric Olsen has posted a link which itemizes the fraud. I cannot refer you to the link, but maybe he can...

Not necessary. I read it long ago.

Then why do you still believe this putz (MM) has anything of value to say?

Because Moore does have valuable things to say, whatever his flaws and whether Eric or you like him or not. The fact that you would ask me that shows me that you have no interest in what Moore gets right, and that tells me it's not worthwhile discussing the matter with you.

Look, Moore hates Bush. That's fine. So does 1/3rd of the USA.

But I detest lies. Moore lies quite frequently. His movies are based on lies. So I can't see why anyone would put any stock in him.

That's all.

But there's no denying the truth behind the facts -- and I find them endelessly valuable. More valuable, in truth, than most anything coming from the mouth or keyboard of the great majority of Republicans and faux progressives and those who cleave to the mainstream. YMMV -- no surprise there.

Similarly, your Bush lies. From his address last night: "The terrorists and Saddam loyalists would rather see many Iraqis die than have any live in freedom. But terrorists will not determine the future of Iraq.''

Excuse me, but didn't that phrase come from the mouth of a terrorist who seems hellbent on determining the future of Iraq?

Moving on, Mr. Elliott, how do you know that Moore hates Bush? That is quite the presumption. To criticize the Shrub and his policies and his myriad flaws or to define him accurately is one thing; hating him is quite another. Even telling him to fuck off (as Moore did in Stupid White Men) does not necessarily mean that one hates him -- I say that to Spousal Unit all the time.

Frankly, I am sick and tired of the right-wing defining the emotions/positions of those from other persuasions.

There's a major underlying issue of DISHONESTY with Moore that disqualifies him from any credibility whatsoever. This is not because he's a liberal, but because he is a LIAR.

By that, I don't mean that he spins things peculiarly, but rather that he makes up stuff that didn't happen, and readily and systematically misrepresents things that did.

Natalie's purely silly here:
Similarly, your Bush lies. From his address last night: "The terrorists and Saddam loyalists would rather see many Iraqis die than have any live in freedom. But terrorists will not determine the future of Iraq.''

Excuse me, but didn't that phrase come from the mouth of a terrorist who seems hellbent on determining the future of Iraq?

There's no rational basis for an accusation of "lying" there. There are apparently some number of insurgents and general terrorists bent on causing misery for as many people as possible.

That she simply chooses to willfully misapply the label to President Bush does not constitute a "lie" on his part.

And she's simply being dishonest with this stuff about not knowing whether Moore hates Bush. I mean, come on.

When I hear someone praising Michael Moore at this point, it mostly indicates to me that they are more interested in having their left wing hatred stoked than they are in considering F-A-C-T-S or serious proposals for how to actually run the country.

Michael Moore lies doesn´t kill people. Bush´s lies do.

To anyone who has any figment of a brain at all, Michael Moore is a bitter, lying punk who will do anything to make Americans look bad, especially abroad where his books sell better than in the U.S. itself.

To all those who say the Americans were dumb and should be beaten 24/7: They are disgraced and should be dishonorably disharged from the military, employment prospects severely diminished. But two wrongs don't make a right. People like Maradona like to gloss over this fact, caught up in soul-consuming anti-Americanism as they are.

It has come to light that Polish soldiers contributed to the Iraqi POW abuse. So, Maradona, let's hear your best Pollack jokes. C'mon, you know you want to ...

>Michael Moore lies doesn?t kill people.

Yes they do. He encourages anti-american hatred in an age of mass terror. Essentially, he is the Nazi Jew-baitor in 1938 Germany.

Moore fosters hatred, bigotry and stereotypes. He's a hatemonger demigogue.

http://moorestinks.blogspot.com

question:

Do conservatives still watch black & white TV's?

just curious.

Moore ridicules 9/11 victims:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30367

"Moore went into a rant about how the passengers on the Sept. 11 planes were scaredy cats because they were mostly white," Alibhai-Brown writes. "If the passengers had included black men, he claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody."


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9104

More bizarre still are Moore’s theories about the attacks of September 11, an event that has plunged the filmmaker into an agony of cognitive dissonance, an ideal breeding ground for the paranoid conspiracy theories that come so naturally to him. In hundreds of letters, interviews, and articles, Moore shows no sign of having read the first thing about al-Qaida, militant Islam, or the Middle East. That hasn’t stopped him from concluding that bin Ladin is no danger. “Ooh . . . he’s everywhere,â€� he joked at Stanford University, waving his arms bogeyman-like. “Usama bin Ladinâ€"he could be here tonight!â€� “What if there is no terrorist threat,â€� he has asked, and the Bush administration simply wanted an excuse to curtail civil liberties while it pursued its corporate interests?

Moore seems to forget his own stoking of fears of terrorism. “There is a rage building in this country, and if you’re like me, you’re scared shitless,â€� he wrote in Downsize This!. “I believe thousands of Americans are only a few figurative steps away from getting into that Ryder truck,â€� like the one packed with explosives by Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh. Terrorism by downsized white Americans is one thing: that’s scary. But external threats by foreign terrorists? It just cannot be. “Many families have been devastated tonight. This is just not right,â€� Moore wrote on September 12, 2001, as the World Trade Center and the bodies of 3,000 lay in smoking ruins. “They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him. Boston, New York, D.C., and the planes’ destination of Californiaâ€"these were the places that voted AGAINST Bush.â€� In Moore’s Manichaean world, if Republicans alone had died on September 11, they would have had it coming.

Moore’s moral stupidity, so ratcheted up by September 11, is likely to drive his next film, a documentary about the “twin errant sons of different oilmenâ€�â€"George W. Bush and Usama bin Ladin. The filmmaker is hoping to release the movie, called Fahrenheit 9/11, a few months before the presidential election, to “make sure that Bush isn’t returned.â€� All signs point to his usual techniquesâ€"facts stripped of context and detail, dark insinuations, and outright lies, all leavened by pop music and Strangelovian irony.

Tracing some of Moore’s recent comments, one can piece together the argumentâ€"or rather the hazy impressions, for Moore never constructs an argumentâ€"that will make up this so-called documentary. Moore will insinuate that the United States created Usamaâ€"“or USA-ma, which is more appropriate considering we trained him to be a terrorist.â€� He will tell us that in the late nineties the oil firm Unocal held a meeting with Taliban representatives in Houston, “when Bush was governor,â€� to talk about building a pipeline through Afghanistan. He will imply that this project was the reason the U.S. gave humanitarian aid to the Taliban, until “the deal went south,â€� and “suddenly the Taliban were evil.â€� And thus, Michael Moore will finally reveal the awful truth that only he is courageous enough to admit about why the United States really went to war with the Taliban.

Lord! We now have college students, and, presumably, college graduates, who do not know what creative license is. What Michael Moore is doing is well within literary traditon. Tristram Shandy, anyone? If Moore were purporting to be Edward R. Murrow, then he could be held accountable for not sticking to the facts. Journalists have a duty to do so. But, that is not what Moore is claiming to be doing at all. He is blending fact and fiction to reach a result that he believes conveys a greater truth than can be reached with just one of the two. Many of the world's best artists have done the same thing.

it just cracks me up to see people get the 'ole bulging forehead vein about moore's 'lies' when folks like ann coulter, sean hannity and bill o'reilly do it on a daily basis.

I don't recall the name of the person who set up the drive to try to have Moore's Oscar revoked, though I blogged it at the time. Perhaps it was Josh Wills. Perhaps not. Anyway, Wills has a site totally dedicated to attacking Moore. It is called, in a show of the profound intelligence and endless insight we are coming to expect from him, "Michael Moore Stinks." Explains the shrillness and reference to the far Right opinion rags Front Page and WorldNet Daily.

Obviously, Moore is doing something right if he has the troglodyte faction in such a frenzy.

Two words for Moore: Fat idiot.

I'm amazed at how all of these celebrities and wanna-be's do all of their anti-american shit on foreign soil.

Is that a threat to harm Michael Moore, John?

Where did you read a threat idiot!!!

MM is an anti-American. He hates his country, the economic system that made him rich, and all those "useful idiots" who buy his books.

He's nothing but hate, personified.

Sad that so many love this fat communist liar so deeply...

Why? Because you say so? Some of us see Moore as loving what America is supposed to be and working so hard to make it reality. Long live American dissent.

I'm with Diva on this right-wing frenzy. Goodness knows, it's almost amusing hearing you go on about this man, who obviously is doing something right.

What exactly is he doing right? Lying profusely? Being morbidly obese? Attacking American for a foreign audience? Being an arrogant asshole?

If you want a liberal hero, why not Russ Feingold or some other HONEST liberal?

Paul Wellstone was a great man. When he died, I was sad. I disagreed with the guy on almost everything, but he was decent.

Mike Moore is pond-scum. He lies, and makes millions from his lies while attacking "the rich."

Thankfully, MM will likely die soon from his own sickening addiction to fast-food. Liberals should find an heir-apparent sometime soon...

And you dare to criticize people for speaking ill of dead Ronnie Reagan. Wishing someone dead is far worse, Mr. Elliott. And you call Michael Moore -- who can be criticized justifiably, no argument there -- "an arrogant asshole." Interesting.

I don't wish him dead. He'll quickly kill himself.

And he is ARROGANT. But so am I. Fey...

Maybe if the fat bastard sleeps in a really small room he'll asphixiate on his own gas.

The majority of celeberties who have chanted anti-american remarks have done so on foreign soil. That syas it all.

Even a jelly fish has more of a back bone than these cowards.

I have also noticed that singer Toby Keith has been invited to several events to sing the national anthem, but I haven't heard much from the Dixe Pricks.

and again: rush, o'reilly, coulter etc. make their millions with their own 'lies' on a daily basis.

and we see no screaming about it from the right.

Any person or persons like the Dixie Chicks who makes these statements in countries other than the US deserve not to be heard.

Why don't they put these remarks on their concert advertisments and posters?
The answer is obvious it is called bankrupt.

Michael Moore reminds me of someone who digs in their ass then sniffs their fingers afterwards. Seriously, take a good look at him and see if you don't agree. I have a funny feeling that Cheeto's and ass don't mix well unless you're Michael Moore.

Just another attention seeker like lation whore J-Lo. And speaking of ass, "Dude, where's my country"? You're sitting on it you fat motherfucker.

written by Theodore Roosevelt during the last year of ww I.

go ahead, ignore it.

"The President is merely the most important among a large number
of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly
to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad
conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal,
able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole.
Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be
full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means
that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong
as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in
an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce
that there must be no criticism of the President, or that
we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the
American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about
him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell
the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any
one else."

Michael Moore is merely stateing what he beleives to be the truth for propoganda purposes. Further I don't have a problem with Americans speaking out, just do it here in the face of fellow Americans and not in a cowardly fashion while traveling abroad.

>it just cracks me up to see people get the 'ole bulging forehead vein about moore's 'lies' when folks like ann coulter, sean hannity and bill o'reilly do it on a daily basis.

it crack you up presumably because you are one of the numerous partisan mindless fools. the same crowd which labels anyone who criticizes (free speech anyone?) Moore's dissembling as "rightwing". as far as I'm concerned, moore is EXACTLY THE SAME as rush, coulter, bill reilly and all the other lying, sleezy media trash whose only goal seems to be to promote animosity and make the american people less informed.

you partisan morons are the problem.

josh, your first paragraph is exactly my point. one is always criticized, but never the other.

..and i never said that i agreed with everything moore says either.

but i guess i'm just a partisan moron.

thank you.

My problem with Moore, as stated multiple times (forgive me), isn't that he is a "liar" foisting a particular point of view with a polemicist's laser beam fanaticism, it's that he is an entertainer who presents himself as a serious political thinker and who has gulled many into seeing him that way. As an entertainer he is sometimes entertaining, but as a thinker he can rarely be accused of thinking.

"one is always criticized, but never the other."

You started it, no you started it. You never get in trouble. Mom, mom!

At least O'Reilly and Coulter have enough back bone to speak directly to America in America. That is my point.

Tell the Cheez Wizz eating lard ass Moore to get a TV or Radio show. I'm sure he would get a lot of listeners / viewers.

Besides I'm a moderate. There are plenty of times that Bill O'Reilly pisses me off. I do my best to observe and listen then vote for te person I think is the best.

I voted for Bill Clinton. I beleive Clinton and Reagan were the two best Presidents in a long time. On the other hand Jimmy Carter and George Bush Sr. really sucked.

Unfortunately for America Al Gore and George W were the two weakest candidates in history.

You started it, no you started it. You never get in trouble. Mom, mom!

look man, all i'm doing is attempting to point out the hypocricy of the situation...and this is what you come up with?

i guess we're done.

As I said I'm a moderate. You act as though there is a conspiracy against the left or something. Say what you want just have the balls to do it in your home country.

Get a news talk show in the same time slot as O'Reilly on another news station and speak.

uh, no....no conspiracy implied here at all. i'm just saying that the majority of conservative talk/tv screem to the tree about people like moore, all the while lying in exactly the same matter.

the issue of making statements in or out of your own country is a different matter.

Just the publicity and propoganda he needs to get a high turn out at the film debut.

I guess I just don't like the fat bastard in general.

I guess now MacDiva is going to get angry because I think that Michael Moore digs in his ass and eats Cheeto's at the same time. Or maybe that O.J is a murdering piece of crap who didn't deserve even five seconds of Katie Courics air-time.

Other John. You remarked that M.M. always makes the remarks you so disapprove of out of the country. (Not true, BTW*.) That implies you wish he would make them in the good ole U.S.A. Considering your hatred of him and your desire for proximity, I wonder if you might act on your impulses. Seems reasonable.

*One of the places M.M. has spoken, to great applause, is Austin, Texas.

Josh Wills has explained he is not really on the same page with the Johns, though his short comment probably got lost in the mix.

Eric Olsen gets the point I'm trying to make about people judging M.M. as a journalist, ie., reporter of fact, when he is not. Once one realizes what Moore is doing, claiming he is a 'liar' makes no sense because Moore is not claiming to be purely an adherent to fact.

John-Z, anger is not the emotion your remarks elicit from me. They are too ridiculous for anger to be a reasonable response. I am bewildered by your latest claim -- a connection between me and O.J. Simpson. I can't think of any.

I don't hate Michael Moore I just don't like the fat son of a bitch. Just as he doesn't like Bush. His probably is hatered. I actually laugh everytime I see MM. You are just angry because I joked about him asphixiating on his own gas while sleeping and digging in his fat ass while eating Cheeto's.

As for the O.J remark I am just surprised no one has mentioned his recent interview replete with disgust. If he could have never run a football he would be more of a loser than he is now. And still a murderer...

You are again bewildering me, John-Z. I don't have any particular connection to Michael Moore, any more than I do to O.J. Simpson. My remarks go the nature of his work, not any personal interest in him. I haven't been attracted to large men and don't expect that to change.

>josh, your first paragraph is exactly my point. one is always criticized, but never the other.

The thread is about Moore. Why the paranoia. And the right certainly is criticized and rightly so. And why are they criticized?
1. Mean-spirited attacks on people
2. Lying

Exactly the sleeze Moore deals in. Hes a despicable human being and an embarassment to real liberals.

>..and i never said that i agreed with everything moore says either.

No one said you did. I did criticize your creating some polemic where either we are "with Moore or we are with Rush". I hloathe them both. They're exactly the same lying loudmouth blowhards.

>but i guess i'm just a partisan moron.

Apparently.


-----------



Here's a funny site: http://moorestinks.blogspot.com

As for the observation that Moore makes much of his money, if not most, overseas, it is deadon.

Essentially, his appeal is that xenophobe chauvinists and nationalists in racist ol' Europe can pat themselves on the back and feel superior. Never, EVER, would Moore offer up any of his cultural assassinations against Europeans. Curiously, none of the European countries are keen on a local "Moore" figure who bashes and defames. Funny, that.

Moore fans in the US are a different matter. My main points of criticism are, in sum:

1. Moore lies repeatedly, and exploits tragedy for fame and money. He is ruthless and cuts down people for his own sadistic amusement.

2. Moore's foreign fans are largely xenophobes who do not have a 'liberal' bone in their bodies, if by liberal you mean fair, self-critical, tolerant, etc.

MacDiva,
Michael Moore makes movies that he calls "Documentaries". The reason many people are upset is because "Documentaries" are supposed to be factual...and Moore's movies play fast and loose with many facts. If he wants to make fictional movies, that's his right...but to call, for instance "Bowling for Columbine" a Documentary is an outright lie.

Doug, anyone who knows who M.M. is also knows his documentaries are a mix of fact and fiction. (Some call them mockumentaries.) It is not as if he is promoting himself as our contemporary Murrow, Ted Koppel. I expect Americans to bring some brains to the table. That would mean recognizing the line in commentary about politics from Laurence Sterne to Michael Moore.

I have been around the blogosphere long enough to realize what likely happened here. One of the large Right Wing bloggers told the sheep to go out and say, 'Mike Moore is a liar.' So, one behind the other, they are doing exactly that. Whoever began this nonsense is just plain foolish. Moore is not a liar because he is not claiming to be adhering to facts exclusively.

Nor is this a partisan issue. Recognizing creative license is a matter of using the gray matter between one's ears.

MacDiva,
Well, you see MD, there is exactly the problem. Michael Moore does not say he produces "mockumentaries" he calls them documentaries...which by their very definition are supposed to present facts. It is not a question of people bringing "...some brains to the tabel". It is a question of Michael Moore blatently claiming to be a documentary film maker, but not making documentaries. So, Moore does in fact claim to be adhering to the facts exclusively. There is a difference between using creative license in a documentary film and creating scenes and ideas that did not occur in reality. If Moore did not claim to be a documentary film maker, then I would have no problem with his work. I would simply chalk him up as a left wing wacko (similar to some right wing wackos who are very popular)and watch his films if the subject matter interested me (BFC, did). However, I take exception to his "Documentary" claim. You are correct, this is not a partisan issue, it's an issue of calling a liar a liar. Pretty simple, especially if you use the gray matter between one's ears.

"Eric Olsen gets the point I'm trying to make about people judging M.M. as a journalist, ie., reporter of fact, when he is not. Once one realizes what Moore is doing, claiming he is a 'liar' makes no sense because Moore is not claiming to be purely an adherent to fact."

Gee. Then why does he film "documentaries" (and win awards!)which are by definition non-fiction and truthful?

People claiming that Moore can't lie because he is a comedian should note:

Moore, himself, said in his famous Oscar speech, that "we are writers of nonfiction" ....

So he portrays himself as being a documentarian but when caught lying, he claims he's just kidding?

What a sham. And a racist hater of America.

YOU PEOPLE MUST BE VERY BORED...

Moore has given a view of Bush administration which may be not completely objective and is disliked my many Americans. But I ask: who can be completely objective on such historical happenings such as 9/11? Is the US propaganda (and the media campaign directed by the White House) to be credited as more objective than Mr. Moore????
Moreover: even if there may be some lies in the documentary, it has the great merit to provide a view which is independent from the shallow conformism of the "embedded" media which dominate the American scene. Great journalism, great courage!
My compliments to Mr. Moore.
Lucio Sibilia