This one's too easy:

"Have a Coke and a smile, and shut the fuck up!"

"Would YO-OO-OU like to have one of my JEL-LL-LO Pops?"

;-]

*dad of a toddler banging his head on the desktop*

oh jeez, oh jeez....hooked on phonics costs 200 dollars.....

I fully embrace Bill Cosby's comments. He is spot on. Nowhere in his speech does he imply that only African Americans are on welfare. This is the problem with African Americans. Every criticism is an attack and they have a quick excuse. That's not what Cosby said so we did/do not need clarification from Leib/Howard or whoever those people are. We know and I am sure America knows not only black people are on welfare. Not only black people are on social benefits here in the UK either. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Neither is it what Bill Cosby meant.

I could not embrace his comments more. If I did, I would be having sex with it. Hear, Hear! Bill. Hear, Hear!

Bill is right on, just look at MTV's making the band. This is what young african americans strive for, it is wrong and confusing. The problem is that they are being exploited from every direction with promises of fast money, big cars, ice and gold.

Cosby's always been a sellout who's been out of touch. It's disappointing to see him so bitter and jaded that he's now "blaming the victim" during a time where that's really common in the neo-conservative approach to education. Look, read "Savage Inequalities" by Jonathan Kozol if you want to understand WHY kids in poor, failing school systems give up and drop out. When we fail to support inner-city schools that lack basic textbooks and punish schools for their own poverty through "No Child Left Behind," there's no wonder both teachers and students lose their motivation to learn and achieve.

At least the old Cosby was consistently upbeat and tried hard to present his view of positive black, bougie nuclear family role models (the Huxtables were doctors and lawyers and even hip Theo went to NYU). Every episode's credits featured Dr. Alvin Poussaint from Harvard as a consultant -- Poussaint is probably the most famous person in the mental health field dealing with African American youth.

I think the bottom line is that the Cos is bitter about his career. He tried twice with shows that ultimately failed after the Cosby Show. He did this "you don't even speak English" bit with Wanda Sykes at that award show last year. He's now angry and old and reactionary when it comes to young blacks and their culture, which he obviously doesn't fit into the way he did in the early 1980s.

That is all.

I think it ain't the career. Seems like Cos is just bitter, period.

His late '90's sitcom did respectably enough to reach syndication, making him a lot of money indeed.
Methinks he's just a conservative crank. Oh, and a prick, as his humorless attempt to embarass Wanda Sykes indicated.

It's ALL true, including the comments. He's talking about personal responsibility and EVERYONE ultimately is responsible for him- or herself. This does not mean that there aren't systemic, historical reasons why blacks are disadvantaged, but looking forward, he is right that education and values are the only way out of the hole.

To single out blacks, or even "lower economic people" as Cos has, for critcism in regard to diction is laughable. I defy anyone to separate the black kids from the white kids, or the rich kids from the poor kids, in some of the teen-oriented threads around here (the Eminem one, or the Madonna ones, or Tupac).

As a writer and grammar nerd, I abhor the way most kids speak today, and I agree that education is the only way, and that the responsibility for that education falls upon the kid, his family, and the community.

It's the singling-out part to which I object .

Bill Cosby has good reason to come across as embittered. He has been so since his his bereavement. His SON was murdered, another young black man the victim of senseless gun violence. Bill Cosby knows of what he speaks--illiteracy leads to hopelessness which in turn leads to violence. I applaud Bill Cosby for using his hard-earned fame to speak out courageously and controversially, in his grief. Kudos.

I knew someone would say what Beth said. But it's a silly point.

Cosby's son was killed by a Russian immigrant, NOT an inner-city black kid. So his "blaming the victim" really doesn't make sense and his joining the minority-bashing of the right-wing doesn't make sense.

This is an old debate about "culture of personal responsibility" and assailing the "lack of moral values" of people for their problems. All of you should read the book "Blaming the Victim" by Boston College psychologist William Ryan before you make this argument ever again. It's funny how conservatives are so reluctant to talk about the morality of a persisting caste system in our nation that WILLFULLY keeps the poorest and most discriminated against (on the basis of all silly things, skin color) with the LEAST resources for education and employment. We dismantle social services and community development aid that would allow people to improve their communities and raise children in safer environments and then turn around and point the finger at minorities asking why THEY don't change their "faulty morals." Instead of asking "the other half" to look inward, perhaps people in privilege should start to do the same and confront their own racism and their role in an inequitable and unjust society. It's easy to call out "pull up your bootstraps" if you're someone who's never been oppressed and it's easy to fall back on old prejudices without even attempting empathy for other human beings. You can either grow old and cynical and give into fear and blame the way Cosby has or dedicate yourself to changing the structural and cultural conditions that support racism.

Wow, I wrote a serious post for once.

That is all.

There should be no doubt that African American youth are victimized by a lot of factors outside of their own control, from racism to societally ingrained poverty, etc. However, Bill Cosby is doing African American youth A FAVOR by suggesting that they look inside themselves to find improvement. It doesn't mean that all that they encounter stems from within though.

Doing a critical analysis of one's self is a good thing. As a member of the gay community, we have some of the most critical pundits of our community coming from within. They offer valid insight into how to better our lot in life. And we continue to fight against the external factors as well. No group, no person is completely infallible to their own lot in life.

One thing is for sure, he is correct in his assessment of the usage of the English language. It's my understanding that to become a full-fledged doctor, you have to take at least 16 years of medical training BEYOND college.

And while it's one thing to read reviews of music online, that say things like 'The Albums What Changed My Life', if we went to a doctor who said 'This prescription what helps you feel better', we would be out of that office faster than a cat with it's ass on fire.

And before someone accuses me of racism, we would leave that office just as fast, if the doctor said 'Whooo-Weee! I reckon that mole kin git cancerous real quick. Wheel take it off and purty you up'.

Believe me, there are a lot of things that fall into the category of 'gay culture' but that don't fit in, in everyday life. We're proud of our culture, as imperfect as it is, and we have our own sayings/slang. There's a leather culture in the gay community, but NOBODY in their right mind would expect to become a successful doctor if they went into their office in leather chaps with their droopy buttcheeks hangin out.

Culture or not, I would NOT do business with a person who makes a fashion statement by wearing jeans 12 sizes too big, with more boxers exposed than not. I wouldn't even buy fries from that person.

Whether Bill is bitter or not, doesn't matter. Being a member of a group, gives that person THE RIGHT to criticize that group. And I'll tell you this - there are plenty of young white kids who do this too - but ANY person who would pay 500 dollars for a pair of sneakers that were made in a third world country for 4 bucks is nothing more than proof that a fool and his money are soon parted.

Bob, it's the culture of dependency that forced welfare reform. This isn't a racial matter at all. At this point in time ANYONE who chooses to can rise above WHATEVER background using systems that are firmly in place. A disadvantaged background is absolute gold when it comes to utilizing the educational system. The issue is a person has TO MAKE THE CHOICE. This isn't a racial matter either. Children have to decide that they value education and achievement ahead of being cool - this is the choice that must be made. This is what Cosby was addressing.

Olsen: I think you said something nice about one of my rants on one of these random blogs, but you're kind of off here.

First, you use a neo-con buzzword like "culture of dependency" like ending welfare was an inevitability due to the moral failings of those evil "welfare moms." The end of welfare was a willful political choice made by calculating politicians -- Clinton made the promise to get the votes of Southerners and had to go through with it. Smarter people than I have documented the human cost of this "reform" on the lives of the working poor.

Secondly, "it isn't racial at all, it's about choice" reflects your lack of awareness of racial exclusion and privilege. The life choices you are afforded and made privy to are VASTLY different than those of a kid who grows up in a failing public school system that doesn't offer basic math/reading skills, much less the AP courses and college prep curriculum most of us in "white flight" suburbs could choose from. Not to mention the luxury that many of us from the suburbs didn't enjoy: the opportunity to choose from private colleges where yearly tuition exceeds the average salary of an American parent. Students in poor schools don't have access to the college board exam prep classes and are particularly disadvantaged in math and science, which hurt their preparation to succeed in these career-track majors in college (not to mention in college admissions). Their teachers and school counselors (they may not have a "college counselor") suggest community colleges or trade schools, if they suggest any further schooling at all based on unfairly low expectations.
It's hard to succeed in college when your high school lacks the resources to prepare you for the rigor and advanced background assumed in college coursework. It's hard to catch up and it requires THAT much more work to even have a chance to compete. This isn't an excuse; it's a reality that's unfair to many bright students who don't receive the proper mentoring and support well-to-do students take for granted.

Affirmative action has been virtually dismantled in the majority of universities as well, so the angry white male backlash against this other neo-con buzzword is almost kicking a dead horse. The racists will soon have their dream meritocracy: entire law school classes and elite schools with 1-2 black faces, if any at all. Again, smarter people than I have documented the numbers. The point is: you neo-cons are winning this battle, court decisions about legality aside.

Absolute gold? Justify that statement. Please do, I beg of you. Empirical evidence would be great.

Until you have had experience in rising above "whatever," save the patronizing Pollyanna sentiments. The language of choice is an implicit moral condemnation -- there are lots of kids who CHOOSE to follow the right path who are continually underestimated, unrewarded, and eventually frustrated by the continual racism in this country that views African-Americans as intellectually and academically inferior.

Cosby's RIGHT to say a doctor shouldn't speak jive. He's wrong to blame the "lower economic people" who don't reside in his tax bracket and associate them with an inability to speak English or pursue education. That's how you know we have an underclass and have grown to accept the injustice of that fact in this society: when we have abandoned the old dream of helping minorities and the poor move up into the middle class and have deemed them morally culpable for their own struggles because of "wrong CHOICES." When we stop encouraging those kids to strive to be doctors and mock their choice in shoes and their speech without any positive model for them to emulate. Cosby used to present himself and his characters as one of those role models -- I'm disappointed that he's decided to forgo that obligation now.

"Color-blindness" and talk of individualism is fun and easy if you've grown up privileged and never really had to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. It also abdicates you of any responsibility for changing society and helping others improve their education and status. Our society isn't color-blind: it's racist in so many ways, in virtually all our encounters and actions. You can deny that reality or be moved by it. And I think that anyone who uses the language of ethics and morality should really think about THAT choice and how they in turn are defined by it.

If you are serious about this issue and not just talking to be clever without trying to learn about the issue (justifying your own pre-conceived notions), read that Kozol book, Savage Inequalities. I'd like to hear your reaction and have an intelligent conversation with any of you conservatives about the "structures" you claim people can use to "choose anything they want."

What structures would those be, by the way? I'd like to know.

Schools today are more segregated than they were before Brown v. Board -- we celebrate this symbolic decision for its legal precedent, but our dreams of integretation have remained just dreams. We have lacked the moral courage and empathy to engage across racial boundaries and fled to our own enclaves to operate within our own stereotypes, never to be confirmed or denied by getting to know "them."

I don't think any of you really get the psychology of oppression despite your use of phrases like "culture of depedency." Of course all young people should be encouraged to dream the biggest dreams they can, but so many of our young people are beaten down by the harsh realities they see around them in everyday life that their dreams don't ever see any encouragement. And I'm not sure it's the best gesture for adults who do have the freedom to make unfettered choices to lecture them about the failures of "their culture" and "their choices" when our society as a whole has made an awful lot of bad choices and has a lot of cultural prejudices we either deny or smugly refuse to deal with. Where's your talk of accountability then? Where's your "adult" notion of responsibility toward people who are oppressed by your ignorance or indifference?

Make your choice.

Oh, and Boomcrash: if you've read any queer theory, you should know that one of the central struggles for gays has been the ability to define ONESELF instead of having people constantly define you from the outside with stereotypes. I think gays have learned a lot from the civil rights and black power movements about the struggle African-Americans have had to be ABLE to have insight and self-examination without being pre-judged and excluded based on the color of one's skin and not one's ability or character. It's naive to think that struggle is over.

Oh, and Boomcrash: if you've read any queer theory, you should know that one of the central struggles for gays has been the ability to define ONESELF instead of having people constantly define you from the outside with stereotypes.

Yes, Bob, I agree with what you say. I agree with this too. It's my understanding/interpretation from Bill Cosby that there is a line where one can define one's self and then fall out of the acceptable mainstream.

Since we are focusing on clothing here....there are many gay people who CHOOSE to define themselves on the size of their package. As ridiculous as it sounds, they do so. This is why they wear skimpy hotpants in pride parades or at nightclubs. However, if one needs to define themselves that way in a job interview....*throwing my hands in the air** then go right ahead. Do what you gotta do. However if that person then comes to me and complains that they can't get a break because society limits them, well don't expect any sympathy from me. Call this liberal, gay, pro-Kerry person as a neo-conservative and put all the blame on me. That's just fine.

I think gays have learned a lot from the civil rights and black power movements about the struggle African-Americans have had to be ABLE to have insight and self-examination without being pre-judged and excluded based on the color of one's skin and not one's ability or character.

This is true. We have learned a lot from the civil rights struggles of the past. We have learned the insight of self-examination, but judging by external factors such as orientation or skin color is still there. It probably will always be there, definitely in our lifetime. My thought was that Cosby was not dismissing that fact, just looking inward, which I believe is a good thing.

It's naive to think that struggle is over.

When did I say that? Actually I said "It doesn't mean that all that they encounter stems from within though."

If you want to wear the top of your pants below your buttcheeks, and twist the English language so that you have a definition of your 'self' then go right ahead. Most of us, when we do our self-examination come to realize that our identity isn't contingent on such nebulous adaptations as removable clothing, hand mannerisms or vocal slang.

*glancing over at a large segment of the gay community* But then again many of us do....

been the ability to define ONESELF instead of having people constantly define you from the outside with stereotypes

And please tell me how a gay man wearing hot pants or an African American dressing like a rapper thug isn't FURTHERING a stereotype.

*last afterthought*

When I meet with a client, I wear a suit and tie. When I work from home, I'm often in shorts. When I go shopping I wear blue jeans.

AT NO TIME, is my sense of self-identity, or how I define myself as a person, tied to my clothing. It's my own personal opinion that anybody that does so, whether it is a teen who thinks that his cool factor goes up because he has a certain brand of footwear or a teen who wants to dress like her favorite singer, is clearly on the wrong path to discovering his/her true sense of self.

NB: I have a feeling I'll lose most readers of this discussion with this particular post, which is addressing BoomCrashBaby's specific questions. Feel free to ignore it if you want to focus on the larger discussion of race and class above. This is a little bit of a digression but may help some of you understand some of this stuff anyways.

********************************
You say: "When I meet with a client, I wear a suit and tie. When I work from home, I'm often in shorts. When I go shopping I wear blue jeans.
AT NO TIME, is my sense of self-identity, or how I define myself as a person, tied to my clothing. It's my own personal opinion that anybody that does so, whether it is a teen who thinks that his cool factor goes up because he has a certain brand of footwear or a teen who wants to dress like her favorite singer, is clearly on the wrong path to discovering his/her true sense of self."
***********************************

Ah, here's the rub, though ...

Cosby assumes that because a kid wears baggy jeans and talks in slang that he's uneducable and low-class. He doesn't seem to realize that the slang gays or blacks use is yet another role that minorities slip in and out of and doesn't define who they are, much as having sex with someone or having a certain skin color shouldn't define who you are from the outside. What makes you think those black kids' true selves are revealed in their clothes? DuBois talked about doubling in the experience of race and minorities are almost forced to have two selves in order to negotiate different worlds, as you point out from your own experience. Most blacks don't have the ability to "pass" the way you do, but Cosby seems to want to negate one aspect of black identity and culture in order to side with a black middle class that only recently has emerged from poverty and blue-collar work.

I'm not black, so I won't comment on the subversiveness of various clothing and language choices. I will say that a lot of gay theorists have talked about drag and dandies as subversive postures that turn stereotypes upon their head by exploiting them in the face of the disapproving "mainstream" so as to question the very idea of a "mainstream." The central question of gay identity has been, "Who are they to define what is normal and to say I'm abnormal and deviant?" There's a certain unsettling quality to something like drag, where gay men take very conventional "mainstream" images and behaviors associated with hetero women and femininity and adopt them to question the very idea of gender and sexuality. The flamboyant dandy may confirm stereotypes or offend the "mainstream," but might also represent the opportunity to use irony in order to challenge people's expectations of behavior. For example, if you were to go to work in hot pants and engage in your usual serious, business-like work, it might make them question their assumptions about what makes a good worker they can trust (a "straight" arrow) and might also expose the folly of associating clothing and sexuality with one's reliability and job performance. The same might be true for a black worker dressed in hip hop gear. Unfortunately, most of us can't afford that kind of gamble.

But you get the idea: if you're going to say that clothing and speech don't necessarily define the person and that they're used strategically in varying situations, then Cosby and others are wrong for judging people based on stereotypes. When the problem of the day is that we define people in a way that locks them into oppression (whether gay or black), then villifying certain forms of personal expression as being the "worst" of a culture can lead to real trouble with stereotypes.

The real issue here isn't image, it's assumptions about race. There are a lot of rich white kids spending a lot of money buying hip hop clothes but we don't condemn their morals the way some do when they see a young black man wearing the same sneakers. Morever, we don't have the same fears and emotional reactions to what we think those clothes and words symbolize or "signify." Black folks signify. It doesn't mean they're low-class or unworthy of an education or criminals.
I'm sure there's an equivalent analogy for gay expression that I'm not familiar with, like the idea of "butch" femininity or other seeming contradictions that expose the arbitrary nature of our stereotypes.

There are a lot of rich white kids spending a lot of money buying hip hop clothes but we don't condemn their morals the way some do when they see a young black man wearing the same sneakers.

I need time to absorb all that you wrote. But just wanted to comment on this before I go make dinner...

My reading of Cosby's statement was that the underpriviledged was spending money on sneakers instead of hooked on phonics. This could be addressed to black or white, but I got the idea he was speaking to a black audience about black people.

I wouldn't go condemn a rich white OR black kid for paying 500 dollars for sneakers because one would assume that they also have the money to further their education either by H.O.P. or by a tutor, etc.

It's not a fair world, Bob. Any poor kid, of ANY race, that tries to live like a rich kid isn't going to get far in this world, although CapitalOne would sure like to talk to them, I bet.

Let me absorb the rest of your post, and respond later.

I believe that Bill Cosby picked the ideal place to voice his opinions, and I agree with everything that was said. However, I feel that it's one thing to complain about the issues and another to solve the problem. I know that Bill has given a great deal of money to Black colleges, but unfortunately that isn't enough. As a five-year veteran teacher of the elementary school setting in the South Bronx, I realize that the problems arise way before college. And Bill Cosby, as well as other "Black Leaders," need to take a long hard look at the lives of the young children in our community. Lastly, these parents need teaching and guidance, not ridicule.

Cosby assumes that because a kid wears baggy jeans and talks in slang that he's uneducable and low-class.

Wrong. I didn't hear the actual speech, I can just go by the initial post in this thread. But he says "the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal."

That is NOT all black youth. YOU are the one putting them all together, not Cosby.
The post also says "He took aim at blacks who don't take responsibility for their economic status, blame police for incarcerations and teach their kids poor speaking habits."

I certainly hope you don't lay that statement as a blanket across ALL African Americans. I'm quite sure, Cosby didn't do that. He's talking about those in poverty, and I'm also sure that if asked, he would say it doesn't apply to ALL those in poverty. But there are those who do what he's talking about, and he's telling them to look inside themselves. I still think that is a good thing.

Most blacks don't have the ability to "pass" the way you do,

What does that mean? If they (those that Cosby is referring to) skipped the 500 dollar shoes, they could buy a suit at that price and 'pass' just the way I do. But they CHOOSE not to. How can you apply for a job as an intern at a law firm, when you don't have a suit but you have a 500 dollar pair of sneakers?

I will say that a lot of gay theorists have talked about drag and dandies as subversive postures that turn stereotypes upon their head by exploiting them in the face of the disapproving "mainstream" so as to question the very idea of a "mainstream."

Yes, that's true. But how successful do they become? Have you ever heard of a board meeting where one man will turn to another and call him Mary? No. If so, it's definitely the exception rather than the rule. The 'n' word, is sometimes co-opted by the African American community, to refer to themselves in much the same way, as a term of endearment. But will you ever attend a corporate board meeting where one black person turns to the other and calls him the 'n' word? No. You won't.

You can co-opt a negative to turn it around into a positive, but the rest of the world still views it as a negative, and thereby you limit yourself. His beef wasn't so much about the youth, it seems, but that the parents were perpetuating it! The parents never grew out of it.

There's a certain unsettling quality to something like drag, where gay men take very conventional "mainstream" images and behaviors associated with hetero women and femininity and adopt them to question the very idea of gender and sexuality.

Yes, Bob. They do that at pride parades, at gay clubs, within their own community, but not as a way of life! (If it's done as a way of life, then they are transexual, of which the majority are heterosexual, so that's different - they identify as something other than which they were born physically, which puts them in a different category).

For example, if you were to go to work in hot pants and engage in your usual serious, business-like work, it might make them question their assumptions about what makes a good worker they can trust (a "straight" arrow) and might also expose the folly of associating clothing and sexuality with one's reliability and job performance. The same might be true for a black worker dressed in hip hop gear. Unfortunately, most of us can't afford that kind of gamble.

It depends on the job, Bob. We are talking about successful 'mainstream' careers. Rappers can get away with that. Trust me, if a dentist or a gynecologist or a district supervisor at WalMart did that, they would be in for an eye-opener. The same would go for a gay contruction worker who went to work in hot pants, that's why they don't do it! Gay people know there's a time and a place for it (most gay people anyway). According to Cosby, for many impoverished African Americans, there isn't a time and a place, it's ALL the time.

villifying certain forms of personal expression as being the "worst" of a culture can lead to real trouble with stereotypes.

He lays blames on the parents, because he said that the parents talk/dress the same way.

There are a lot of rich white kids spending a lot of money buying hip hop clothes but we don't condemn their morals the way some do when they see a young black man wearing the same sneakers.

Read my earlier response. It's not the clothes that Cosby was ranting against, it was the COST of the clothes, and sacrificing more important things for those clothes. I'm the one that was griping against the type of clothing! (Cuz baggy pants make it look like you have no butt, and I just hate that in a man.)

Black folks signify. It doesn't mean they're low-class or unworthy of an education or criminals.
I'm sure there's an equivalent analogy for gay expression that I'm not familiar with, like the idea of "butch" femininity or other seeming contradictions that expose the arbitrary nature of our stereotypes.

Yes, well I did say that the gay community has it's own faults. All I can say is that any person who identifies their sense of self with their appearance is either an entertainer or never grew out of a high school mentality. That applies across the board to ALL people.

(For a lot of gay people, they would choose a certain appearance as an identifier, because as you put it, they would 'pass' otherwise, and never meet each other. That is also different, and in a world of stereotypes, limiting in and of itself.)

Depends on how one defines "success," BCB. Most of those who shine in boardrooms are not what I would call successful.

True, Natalie. Since we are talking about Cosby's comments, in this case, I am referring to success as the ability to get one's self out of an impoverished economic state. If an African American is self sufficient, then of course, Cosby wasn't talking about him/her.

"baggy pants make it look like you have no butt, and I just hate that in a man."

LOL!

I think in the RW, we'd be cool, BCB...

Most trying to get out of an impoverished state aren't going to end up in boardrooms any time soon. Cosby doubtless considers "mainstream" jobs success; many people think otherwise. Some of us consider adultery the antithesis of success -- Cosby's wealth and mainstream success didn't stop him from going down the road to failure in that area.

I am all for speaking the language properly and for pushing personal responsibility. Education is of paramount importance -- he is correct about that. And a poor human of any hue opting to buy $500 shoes rather than HOP makes me cringe. Absolutely. I am not saying Cosby is wrong. But I do see him as a bitter man pushing meaningless conformity for the sake of a hollow type of "success" and, in the process, setting himself up as judge and jury.

Cosby and the unfortunate Dennis Miller are very much alike, sad to say. Both used to be hilarious -- now, they just dispense hot air.

And I hate baggy pants too. What is that fad about?

I work in a very multi-culti environment. What used to be considered "family values" is mocked by many of my co-workers.

Marriage for life? A joke.

Monogamy? Passe.

Proper English? Only in the job interview.

White guys? Can't dance or sing. Very uncool.

Complete trust in you mate? A fraud.

It's disheartening to me that so many people I work with, and spend so much time with, and view as friends, are so fucking jaded.

But I guess that's just 21st Century America for ya...

GOD! There are just too many people with issues on Blog. Some people are just never satisfied. Bloody hell!

Hey, Mr. Elliot, America sucks. Deal with it.

That's right, Natalie. America sucks... sucks BIG, FAT PREMIUM HIND TIT, that is.

USA! USA! USA!

Booey, you had a curious quote up in comment 14: "The end of welfare was a willful political choice"

You say this as though welfare programs were ended. They were not. We're spending more money on federal welfare programs as EVER.

Welfare reform put some still fairly liberal limits and restrictions on federal welfare programs. That is a LONG way from having "ended" welfare.

Natalie and especially Jamaal: good posts. I appreciate your insight.

BoomCrash: I don't group blacks into stereotypes and I challenge you to find text where I do that. My point is that Cosby does that by associating the behaviors he criticizes with the "lower economic people," in his words.

The passing comment meant that people at work don't have to know you're gay if you choose to stay "closeted." You can actively avoid discrimination by "passing" as a straight person. A black person cannot avoid those character judgments based on appearance, in most cases. That's an advantage you have as a white person.

I have should have said "poor white kids" instead of "rich white kids," but hey, not even I can write a perfect post :)

I'm with you in understanding the importance of commerce and the board room, but don't think that assimilation doesn't come at a cost. You say that you agree with Cosby that black should play the straight and narrow ALL the time: "Gay people know there's a time and a place for it (most gay people anyway). According to Cosby, for many impoverished African Americans, there isn't a time and a place, it's ALL the time." Why are you as a gay person afforded the opportunity to express your identity in moments of your choice while blacks are simply NOT? Could it be because you self-servingly value your culture while rejecting theirs? Think how damaging it would be to one's self-esteem and identity to be told you had to repudiate your people and culture ALL the time in order to Uncle Tom it for corporate America 24/7. What about the idea of training black leaders who are educated in business and law while maintaining a strong sense of their black identity and roots even as they move into the middle class? Certainly there are people like this, and they should be the role models. Think about your assumptions of privilege, entitlement, and power that make you think it's YOUR call to ALLOW blacks to act one way or another among white people like yourself in a boardroom. There are plenty of homophobic jokes and implicit racist attitudes in corporate America's boardrooms -- should we have a generation of docile minorities who always think of their career before their principles and social conscience? I'm not sure that's a sacrifice worth making. There are ways to succeed in any profession without having to forsake your identity. Cosby's fault was attacking the easy targets and feeding into the right-wing racism that views all black youth as thugs and all black parents as irresponsible.

Signifying isn't a fault. You misread my last paragraph as a criticism when I was praising the subversiveness of the gay movement, which is revealing to me.
Black youth should have pride in who they are and shouldn't have to run from it and neither should you in your own identity. I hope you'll think about that because I think a lot of otherwise intelligent gay conservatives like yourself or Andrew Sullivan seem to be willing to sell a lot of their oppositional voice in return for some nebulous notion of "mainstream" acceptance. But at what price?

RJ Elliot: Your post was, as usual, thoughtless and perplexing. You blame multiculturalism for the decline in family values? That's laughable. The nuclear family among white America is virtually disappearing, what with 65% divorce rates and rampant infidelity. I'm sure your Asian or Latin co-workers who actually have a traditional concept of morality and family (unlike "mainstream" white America today) would find your values equally jaded.

To my other favorite muddle-head Al Barger: your claim is wrong and laughable. Think about what you wrote: if something has been LIBERALLY restricted, how can it expand? Cite actual statistics from an ACTUAL academic (not Rush or Hannity) to support your claim that welfare is larger than ever. It's simply not true.

That is all.

What about the idea of training black leaders who are educated in business and law while maintaining a strong sense of their black identity and roots even as they move into the middle class? Certainly there are people like this, and they should be the role models.

Yes, they are out there. And I bet they have a strong sense of identity and are proud of their culture, and don't spend an entire paycheck on a pair of shoes. You are right, they SHOULD be role models. But they aren't, P Diddy is. And society's to blame for this of course, not the individual, because they can do no wrong. And it's certainly not the parents fault for not guiding the youth to appropriate role models. You sure got me there, Bob.

You say that you agree with Cosby that black should play the straight and narrow ALL the time:

All I'm saying is that some people, not ALL people, do not achieve success because they have their priorities wrong. But you know what? It's not their fault. Other people are to blame.

Why are you as a gay person afforded the opportunity to express your identity in moments of your choice while blacks are simply NOT?

You still don't get it Bob. My identity is with me ALL the time. Being gay is not 'who I am'. It is a part of me, nothing more. My identity is tied to my character, my integrity, my sense of values, my honesty, my pride, NOT MY FREAKIN SHOES. You are clueless if you think the closet, where you have to hide PART of your identity, is an 'opportunity' we are 'afforded'. When I go enroll my daughter in daycare and I encounter hesitation and stammering right before the comment that they aren't accepting new applications all the time, my 'opportunity' is NOT to go to the next daycare and play it straight. What values does that instill in my daughter? What does that show her about identity, pride and esteem? Oh yeah, pretending to be something you're not is a real golden opportunity.

The passing comment meant that people at work don't have to know you're gay if you choose to stay "closeted." You can actively avoid discrimination by "passing" as a straight person.

oh yeah, you can 'avoid discrimination' by not having your spouse covered in your benefits, by sitting there and listening to your coworker talk about her weekend with her husband, and you can offer nothing to the conversation, by having your spouse sit at home while you go to company events where other coworkers bring their families....oh yeah, I see a lot of discrimination avoided by hiding. You sure got me there.

should we have a generation of docile minorities who always think of their career before their principles and social conscience?

Bob, you are completely twisting things to the absurd. If you have such a strong principle to take money that you should be spending on your brain and decide to spend it on your feet instead, GO RIGHT AHEAD. If footwear and clothing are part of your social conscience and principles, then GO RIGHT AHEAD and live your life the way you see fit. And all that you are denied is due to external factors and NOT DUE TO A MISPLACED SENSE OF VALUES OR IDENTITY. That is all.

And for the other comment that the board room is out of reach of a lot of impoverished youth of today, yes for right now it is. Success isn't entirely in the board room. I was using that to illustrate success though. But it could also apply to management of retail/fast food, car sales, etc. ANY job where you are self sufficient.

I think this discussion has degenerated somewhat because I think there's some misunderstanding:

First, I'm not black and I'm rich. I have yet to have any doors in education or employment closed to me. Save that patronizing, bitter little rant at the end that reveals your true neo-conservative race-baiting for someone you actually hate. Your use of buzz words like self-sufficiency ignores my entire discussion of that above -- it's easy for someone who's had privilege and grows up with money and a good education to lecture others about being self-reliant. You know nothing about bootstraps or what it's like to be a minority in this country. Being gay certainly has its own difficulty, but your reactionary tone and lack of empathy makes me suspect you're only paying lip service when you say that you've learned anything from the history of the gay movement's modeling of the black civil rights movements.

Of course parents should be responsible for their kids. That's an interesting little moral strawman argument you conservatives have used so far to claim a moral high ground. I don't think that, absent some sort of mental illness, any parent doesn't want the best for their kids from what's available to them. The implication you're making is that poor black parents are worse than any other poor parents because their culture is "worse." Poor white folks have lots of problems too and their kids have their own troubles with the law, academics, and drugs. Hell, some rich white kids have some of the same problems. I'm not sure where your evidence is that being black and poor makes you uniquely worthy of blame instead of empathy. In fact, I'd say that poor black folks have it harder in terms of being upwardly mobile due to structural conditions and overt prejudice that limit their advancement. Not the least of which being that good jobs have virtually disappeared from black areas in America's major cities. Anyone who's read William Julius Wilson or other social scientists on blacks in the workforce know that they're the "last hired, first fired" and even when they do get the nice corporate gigs, rarely get promoted beyond low-level management because they simply don't receive the mentoring and support white workers take for granted. Of course, cultural differences like sharing a round of golf or liking Jimmy Buffet might play a role in the interpersonal politics of the corporate world, but this is no excuse for corporate America's terrible record in training black leaders and promoting them.

It's a lot easier for you to be a parent when you have access to things like day care and a safe environment for your kids to grow up in. A big battle in gay adoption cases has been stereotypes and pseudo-scientific claims about "unfit" gay parents replete with moral claims about character and the possibility of (gasp) raising gay children. Sound familiar to you at all? Or is everything just enigmatic and personal to your own experience because you make all the right moral choices while others are fallible and culpable?

In no way was I minimizing gay oppression. I empathize with the rights you are denied. In fact, I think you misread the entire section I quoted about opportunities for expression afforeded to you. The closet is most certainly NOT what I was discussing in that section you quote -- I was referring to the EXACT opposite, actually, your ability to have moments where you can be proudly "OUT" in whatever form you choose. I was asking why you, as someone who can avoid stigma in the workplace more easily than a black worker can, say that poor blacks should toe the line ALL the time. That statement of yours still perplexes me. The point was that you deny blacks their signification without much thought while rightfully claiming your own ability to signify.

You agree with an important point I made earlier: who you have sex with doesn't define who you are and your character. I'd say the same for the color of your skin and the silly things we fearfully associate with that (clothing, speech) in our stereotypes. The experience of oppression, however, does shape your character. Hopefully, for the better. And I hope you can step beyond yourself for a second in order to see that you're also an oppressor (as am I and anyone else reading this) and to take responsibility for that.

The implication you're making is that poor black parents are worse than any other poor parents because their culture is "worse."

No. We are discussing Cosby's comments. Cosby was addressing a group of African American leaders about impoverished African Americans. This is why poor white kids were not addressed.

A big battle in gay adoption cases has been stereotypes and pseudo-scientific claims about "unfit" gay parents replete with moral claims about character and the possibility of (gasp) raising gay children. Sound familiar to you at all?

I've heard about it. Haven't experienced it first hand. My daughter is biologically mine. Thankfully I haven't had to experience adoption horrors, although I've heard about it.

If you wish to go on about the plight of ALL poor people, that is certainly your right to do so, although since you claim to be rich, I'm not sure how many people will be interested in hearing what you have to say, unless you donate substantially to homeless shelters or the like.

Just like a gay leader will stand up and address gay issues to a gay audience, I believe Bill Cosby was doing the same, just substitute African American in place of the word gay. Doesn't mean that he/I or anybody else is 'overlooking' those not addressed.

I'm not sure where your evidence is that being black and poor makes you uniquely worthy of blame instead of empathy.

If you read my posts without your eyes glazing over, you will see that I said numerous times that a lot of the economic factors that poor people of ALL races encounter are due to no fault of their own. However, it was simply suggested that one look inside one's self to find improvement as well as continuing the battle against discrimination.

But I concede, because we won't agree on this. The plight of the poor (of ALL races) is solely due to external factors. Humans are infallible in their actions. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault. 100% of the time. When we spill hot coffee in our lap, we should sue McDonalds because it's not our fault. When we eat super size meals until we get a heart attack, let's sue fast food chains because it wasn't our fault. When a family who lives on welfare and makes 1,000 dollars a month to feed and house all 3 of them, spends 500 dollars on shoes and then has to go without school books then of course a lack of a decent education isn't their fault. They made GOOD choices there. I'm done, I was wrong, you've convinced me.

BTW Bob, I was homeless and on my own at age 16. Because I was a white kid, I got college loans, when minority friends of mine who had more money got grants. Never bitched about it. Instead I took responsibility for myself, made sacrifices and got my own self out of the hole that I DIDN'T put myself in.

That is truly freakin all.

In reading your critiques from beginning to end I find it very amusing that the people who are speaking the most about this topic are not directly related and so how can you judge the importance of what was said.

Mr. Cosby made very bold and direct statements "stereotyping" the African American that is exactly what they need. The road to success is a very broad one, there are many, many ways we can achieve riches. however doing the bare minimum and expecting great rewards is foolish.

There are a lot of facts that have not been said about the black community between most of these comments; within Historically Black Schools (The institutions responsible for higher learning within the African American community) they are not doing their jobs. I know this because I attend one. From before these students enter school excuses are already made, and accepted. The truth is it's a cold ass world, yet most of them do not know this. They preach to students that with a college degree the sky is the limit, yes there is some truth, but most people graduate with degrees and have no idea of how to apply them. So you have hundreds of Blacks in lower end managerial positions, and its not because they are being oppressed but because they can't do more than they are told.

To the Rich White Person, If you were to invest millions upon your community in the hopes of elevation, and the advancement of the people there in and the only thing you can see in return, are a large amount of "College & University Grads" who can barely form complete sentences.

Please people let us look at the big picture and what this man is trying to do. For every problem there are many solutions, he choose to challenge his community in the hopes of them rising to the challenge. In the past blacks looked up to people like Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Marcus Garvey, NOW we have "50 Cent", "Jay Z", a man who calls himself "Puffy, Puff Daddy, P. Diddy" and all kinds of other shit as the heroes and money makers of our time. When not one of them truly shows righteous or moral values within their work. I say this because of the popularity and power they have within this Nation they continue to deny responsibility for the development of their people. It can easily be said that they are far from being truly WEALTHY.

Solely this man is challenging a race to become great thinkers and creators once again, to become leaders not only during racial battles but also in daily uprising of their homes family and community. For us to take Responsibility, not only for ourselves today, but to make decisions for our children tomorrow. It can be argued that there are a whole lot of rich blacks in the media but there are not nearly.... enough.... WEALTHY African Americans, in our nation.

I'll end by saying that as an upcoming race it is our responsibility not to try to be like the majority, but we have to strive to be better than them to even be considered for equality. Cosby did a wonderful thing in challenging black leaders.

Jason Smith, I agree with you. Well said.

Bill Cosby did what all leaders ought to do - engage the issues that have become taken for granted and stimulate discussion. All too often people fall back on matter of fact to justify their situation and their own personal choices. This does not mean that these matters of fact are incorrect, but rather that issues of race, class and sex must be reflected upon regularly. As anyone can see from the comments posted above the situation is extremely complex. The causes of ignorance, poverty and the 'state of poor african americans' is at once cultural, social, historical, political and individual. It is shortsighted to think that there is one cause to all this. Things are not black-and-white; the world is ambigious and hard to interpret. We should always stay on our feet and recognize that we must be responisble for ourselves but also think about how we are constrained by our environment. I think that too often we tell ourselves a story of how it is then turn our minds off. Too often also, the people in the spotlight reinforce these stories.

Bill Cosby has contributed a great deal of money to african american colleges, and in many ways he has been a major contributor to the educational growth of african americans. However, this statement is only one of many made by Mr. Cosby over the years that have left me dumbfounded! I agree that african americans must take responsiblity for our future. Kids with their clothes hanging off them, Ebonics considered something good. These things only to name a few, make no damn sense! Blacks are responsible for our image...parents arent parenting...kids are stupid..yes, i said stupid! Most of them, are disrespectful toward themselves...so you know they wont respect anyone else. Parents are responsible for the individuals they let into our society...some care and some dont! Some parents, were kids themselves when they became parents!! A person is gonna do only what they know to do...I agree with what he said, just not in the way he said it! Again...Mr. Cosby has left me speechless with his comments to our people...its almost like he is ashamed to be black. I doubt that he is...being black...made him a multi-millionaire....! Being the first black .... for this, first black for that... He had to express himself, the forum he chose was interesting, but I guess he got his point across. Dont forget his kids, (daughter to be exact) had drug issues, and his son was murdered in the street...he is bitter at what he put out there...and its hasnt gotten any better....

Pull your pants up....young black men! Give your children names that they can pronounced ... black parents! Educate your children ! Raise your children...and teach them self-respect! Mothers teach your daughters to be young ladies...not anyones ..b.tch...or wh.re!! ... Fathers teach your sons to be MEN....not thugs, and pimps!!

It was a nice surprise this afternoon to find 5 emails from African Americans who said they agree with me/Cosby.

The whole gist of the conversation got lost in how one gets INTO poverty. Racism is certainly a factor in that, as I have acknowledged repeatedly.

The topic is not how one gets INTO poverty, but WHAT ONE DOES to get HIM/HERSELF OUT of it.

I'm certainly not the most eloquent speaker, but thanks everybody for the support. Just tryin to help, because I've been down and out, homeless and had to hustle to survive, and I've been discriminated against, and then one day when I was about 22, it hit me like an alcoholic has an ephipany. ONLY I can do something, to get myself out of the hole I was in. HOW I got there no longer mattered.

Thanks again folks, for the affirmation.

What Bill said is the truth and nothing but the truth. I speak as a 4th grade inner city school teacher and the state of our future generations is a shame. All I hear everyday is Black on Black hate, ghetto English and generally a sense of " I don't care." I am not in this job for the money and I try my best to be a positive role model. I wonder if my work is in vain when I hear the kids refer to each other as "Niggers" and idolize people like Nelly, 50 cent and the rest of these other glamour thugs...What kind of positive image do you display when you take a credit card and slide it through the butt of a thong clad black woman (Nelly's Video). Please don't say the kids are not exposed to it, because they know every video and every lyric. I have to laugh to keep from crying! I wonder if Martin Luther King's work was in vain....

My sister teaches 1st grade in a lower income neighborhood in Oklahoma. Unfortunately, there isn't enough classroom, so she has her class in a trailer in the parking lot. (Same with about 3 other teachers).

She earns next to nothing, and spends some of her own money on school supplies for the kids.

She tells me that roughly half the time (half the year), she cannot spend teaching, but she spends babysitting the kids. They are unruly, many of them suffer from ADD, many of them have drug addicted parents or one or both parents in prison.

The class is multiracial. The problem lies across the board. They are all low income kids.

There are two problems here. One is the system is underfunded, overcrowded and undersupplied. The other problem stems from the childrens homes.

Putting money into the school system would fix half the problem. The other problem can only be fixed from within the family unit.

Well, as a white guy in his 30s who comes from decent priveledge... I am not sure my voice means much > but I agree with Cosby's comments 100%. I regard myself and not being remotely racists, and want young black people to succeed 100%. They need a talkin' too, and if a white person did it we would be called racist.

geesh, after reading through every one of those above... I wish I could remember Eric's comments. He was spot on every time. Note, I am not just saying that cause we are on his turf... but because he is right.

of course, I imagine our forum is about the whitest place on earth... so who gives a shit what we think?

I am in complete agreement with Bill Cosby. We Blacks need to stop and recognize the problems we have as a people, and how we contribute to these problems. We can not continue to blame the White Man for our failures. Our ancestors fought and died for our civil liberties, and we spit on their grave in return. We do not use our right to vote. We do not teach our children the value of education (in desegrated schools). We do not send our children to college (under Affirmative Action). We enslave oursleves to welfare, instead of using it as a temporary boost to advance ourselves. We do not live up to our side of the bargain. I thank Bill Cosby for his courage in bringing to light our failures. Maybe now, we can, as a People, deal with the harsh reality and raise our standards.

Thanks Lono, sometimes I am not wrong. I missed most of this discussion being on vacation but I am very pleased that it continues and features a wide variety of very thoughtful comments from across the spectrum. This is certainly not the "whitest place on earth," although we can always use more "diversity."

I find it fascinating that those who most object to Cosby's stern comments are white - I wonder what this indicates.

Most if not all of us can see the structural racism of the past as contributing greatly to the current state of affairs regarding the economic and educational gaps in America, although looked at from another perspective there are many positive signs (please see this post on statistical changes in education since the Brown v Board of Education ruling 50 years ago).

But as has been mention by many, most specifically Boomcrashbaby, we are talking about what to do about the situation as it stands now, and the only way out is one person at a time choosing the longer, harder, less glamorous route out of poverty of education, ongoing hard work, and acceptance of mainstream values vs. a life of crime, thuggery, and rejection of mainstream values.

References to 50 Cent, Nelly, etc are instructive because for blacks in particular (but every other low-income group as well) showbiz was a door into mainstream society and performers had to at least give the illusion of buying into the package, while today thuggery and a life outside the mainstream is presented as the only "cool" way to go: "don't be a fool, a Tom, a shill, live 'our' way, be true to the street, and reap the rewards of cash, babes, drugs AND prestige."

I don't care who you are or what your perspective: this is destructive as hell to both society and the individuals who buy into the illusion.

It puzzles me how white people so seldom see faults in their own while finding nonexistent faults in people of color, or overstating any that exist. For example, Eric Olsen, the proprietor of Blogcritics, contributed several paragraphs to this thread. Yet, he says nothing about the awful behavior demonstrated by its very existence -- because a white person is responsible, I suspect. The entry consists of material stolen from a copyrighted source and posted under RJ Elliott's name. That is lying (claiming to have written a a blog entry), stealing, and cheating (real bloggers actually write blog entries). If Olsen, and others, are so concerned about 'values' why are they not critical of the unethical behavior being displayed here? (And, by that person on nearly every 'entry' he posts.) It is this kind of blindness -- whatever a white person does is fine, but finding fault with people of color at the drop of a hat -- that let's us know that discrimination is alive and well in America.

As for Bill Cosby, he seems to have conveniently 'forgotten' that one of his daughters was a longterm drug addict and that he is a longterm adulteror. People who live in glass mansions. . . .

um MD, that is an odd response to the issues at hand. First of all, RJ correctly attributes, links and clearly quotes the source in question. There is no attempt to pass off other's material as his own. He presents quoted material than comments upon it, as do most of us including we two.

Secondly, Cosby's daughter's problems, his own adultery, and whatever other sins he and his have committed have little or no bearing upon the meat of his argument, which is essentially that lower income people need to have responsibility for their lives and focus on education and value-priorities in order to "succeed." Since Cosby himself has clearly taken his own advise in this regard, I'm not sure where the glass house issue comes into play.

Quoting copyrighted material at length is a violation of fair use. Furthermore, it is a pattern of RJ Elliott's. If he were to do the same thing at any responsible college newspaper, his behavior would be grounds for expulsion. Honor codes oppose lying, cheating and stealing. This is all three. At a site like this, allowing the behavior shows a complete disregard for the law of copyright.

Responsible bloggers know better than to do this. We quote short passages or multiple sources. Some of us paraphrase. Elliotts' blog 'writing' consists of see it, copy it, take credit for it. There is no defense, legal or ethical, for this kind of theft of other people's work.

To defend the unethical and illegal behavior of a white man, ie, Elliott, for example, while criticising the behavior of of low-income African-Americans as if it is both monolithic and always pathological, is pure hypocrisy. Why not clean up your own backyard, Eric?

Quoting news sources en toto is a violation that I have asked not be committed in a statement to our members earlier this week. I agree that it is inappropriate.

How much of a story that can be quoted and still be called fair use is very much open to debate and is gray and fuzzy. In a blog setting, quoting anything less than the whole thing, providing a link and attribution, and providing some kind of commentary seems to be adequate inoculation.

Issues of copyright and questionable quotation practices are hardly racial in nature. I and, I believe, every other commenter on this thread have gone to pains to say that values, personal responsibility and education are not racial matters, or even necessarily class matters. We are talking about those who wish to partake of the spoils of the system without contributing to it or buying in to its value system or providing themselves with the tools in order to participate successfully within the system via education. Surely you are defending this destructive illusion?

I am defending the right of people not to be described as wanting by people who are no better than they are. I've seen no evidence that RJ Elliott, who is semiliterate and ignorant of just about everything, is in a position to be looking down his nose at anyone. Nor is the problem limited to this context. We are hearing the same nonsense about white America knowing it all and 'teaching' everyone else in the world in foreign policy as well. Our internationally known RJ Elliott is Lynndie England. He and his claim they need to teach the lesser beings in America's cities how to behave. She and her comrades claim they needed to teach the lesser beings in Iraq how to behave. The whole world knows what that 'lesson' turned out to be. This entry is a less brutal example of the same kind kind of attitude -- arrogance trying to pass as enlightenment. If people like RJ Elliott want to teach somebody something they should start with themselves. He can begin by actually writing a real blog entry, though I doubt he is capable of it. You can start by enforcing copyright law on the site. The lesser beings that y'all think need your 'leadership'? We'll manage without you.

"RJ Elliott, who is semiliterate and ignorant of just about everything"

Sounds like a personal attack to me...

"Our internationally known RJ Elliott is Lynndie England"

Now I'm a torturer...

Mac, I seriously thought you would have something rational and meaningful to add to this discussion. I didn't suspect such a bitter, shrill response.

Oh well. I'm just a semi-literate, ignorant, racist torturer...

I just wanted to add for clarification:

I'm not black, but I'm not white either.

Enjoy.

I certainly hope my comments didn't sound racist to the masses, although when talking about race (or orientation), it's going to be impossible to not offend somebody.

Having been homeless and figuring out what is needed to get out of it, I was hoping to provide input for anybody that chose to absorb it. Doesn't mean I consider myself better than anybody else. Just experienced with poverty and personal responsibility. I would think that does qualify me to speak on the subject.

While I agree with the comments that the music industry denegrates women and creates a thug environment, the same could be applied to a lot of rock music. However, I think both types of music draw their stuff from the concept that sex sells. Even pop music like Christina Aguliera or Britney has videos that glorify sexuality.

So is it going to change? No. Should it? My own personal opinion is no, probably not. I happen to love people in touch with their sexuality. If well-balanced, it can be a great enrichment in one's life. Should we censor things just because some people misinterpret it? No.

Where the problem lies, is in the parenting. If a child grows up looking at the likes of Britney Spears or Cosmo cover girls, and she thinks that is the perception of what a woman should look like, then nobody sat down with her and explained reality, marketing, whatever you want to call it. I happen to think Brad Pitt is a sexy man, but I don't try and emulate him. I don't try to dress like him or talk like him or act like him. I don't identify my sense of self or culture with anything he puts out.

What it comes down to is identity. Instilling a sense of self within the child at an early age. I have my own self-identity. It is not defined by a large marketing conglomerate. I don't own a single rainbow flag. I have nothing against the rainbow, but it serves no purpose for me. I am not defined by a product or the type of music I listen to any more than I am defined by the type of food I eat.

Perhaps if a poor person skips buying textbooks and spends their 500 dollars on shoes instead, that is a good thing, as they wouldn't be spending that money on dope like I did when I was homeless. No matter the cause, the solution will always primarily stem from personal responsibility rather than another social program. However, if insight into that predicament is neither wanted nor appreciated, then that is fine too. No more sympathy for the poverty-stricken here then. No skin off my back. Sounds like they're doing all right on their own.

BoomCrash:

For what it's worth, I admire your story and I give you credit for overcoming adversity. I apologize for assuming you hadn't struggled in life, even if your struggle wasn't specifically related to race. I can only imagine how your sexual identity made it difficult for you to get the support you needed from family and peers growing up and I'm sorry for that.

I'll end with this unless someone really does say something offensive --which hasn't been the case so far despite my passion about this issue, I assure you. Your struggle is inspiring and you overcame a lot of judgments people made about you that made it harder for you to find success and happiness. Remembering all that you went through, I think that perhaps you might find some empathy for those who also grow up poor, sometimes without family support, and are stereotyped for things that don't define their character. I would think you'd want to reach out and help those kids who are going through as much struggle as you did rather than lecturing them. If we're serious about reaching poor kids and motivating them, we need to try and understand them enough that we don't seem patronizing and destroy their self-esteem. OF COURSE everyone should have a great family, a nice house, lots of books around, and all the things we saw on the Cosby Show. Cosby's kids demonstrate that even with those advantages, life isn't always perfect. But for those who are denied many of those things every kid deserves through no fault of their own, grandstanding about their poor choices in life doesn't seem productive or helpful.

Parenting in this country is a problem in general; isolating poor black families as being uniquely poor parents with poor priorities seems cruel, unnecessary and untrue. Most of our "evidence" for "poor black parenting" is anecdotal, like Cosby's talk about buying gym shoes instead of textbooks. How common do you think that REALLY is? If there are poor choices people make that affect their families (things like being a dope addict), we should do our best to give them resources to overcome their problems and have a chance to succeed without being blamed for the "evils" we associate with some races more than others subconsciously, and often, consciously and overtly. And we shouldn't let our moral language about choice distract us from our ETHICAL call to change the structural injustices that make survival and those "good" choices extremely difficult for far too many for far too long. That's something that I've said a couple of times now that I don't think any of you are responsive to. I hope THAT element of racism in America moves you as much as your visceral reaction to seeing a "street thug" wearing "$500 sneakers" and "not speaking English."

I'm not sure that Bill Cosby is part of the solution anymore. I think he's hiding behind old stereotypes and fears and claiming a moral high ground that doesn't really exist. I hope the rest of you will resist the easy temptation to condemn others and commit yourselves to changing things for the better rather than focusing on the worst and ugliest portrayals of black life in our culture.

Somehow I don't think writing this will affect any of you reading, though. That's why the problem of race is so vexing in America; there's so much anger and fear under the surface and so much that we can't get at through mere words and even the most earnest discussion. I don't know.

Ethics isn't about judgment; it's about responsibility. In order for us to demand that others take responsibility, we have to show some ourselves in the way we deal with other human beings.

LOL! So, now the same party who posts hate threads is taking a break from stealing copyrighted material to whine. Spare me. And, no, I am not falling for the attempt at distraction. If a person is going to call himself a blogger, he should write blog entries, not pass off real writers' work as his own. That reveals a complete lack of integrity. I would trust a struggling ghetto Mom before I would an RJ Elliott any day. And, frankly, many folks in the ghettos and barrios have better values than upper and middle class white folks, who are often motivated by one thing -- greed. The presumptions on this thread are deeply offensive and show the ugly American is still very much with us. Personal attack? Yes, if the persons attacked number in the millions.

Mac, you recently had comments erased from BC due to their containing vitriolic personal attacks. It seems you have not learned a thing from that little lesson...

Oh, you are 'teaching' people, again, RJ Elliott? Beats learning to write a blog entry, eh? As for any erasures, I'm not aware of any, but if they exist, I don't care. The fact that attack threads such as yours cited above stay on the site tells anyone interested all he or she needs to know. I draw attention to your behavior because it is unethical and illegal. If someone is going to post an entry criticizing the values of millions of people, he is definitely subject to scrutiny of his own.

BoomCrash: I also just noticed now your story about your sister and her teaching experiences. I also can know of and can relate to stories like that and I think they illustrate a key point: poverty is a problem for families in America (across the board, as you say). It's crushing. It makes life hard, dangerous, and depressing. Racism is an added evil that makes the lives of poor blacks even more difficult. That's why empathy is important. But thank you for sharing that story. It illustrates that behavioral problems and low achievement aren't endemic to black culture itself, but that our culture as a whole needs to respond better to poor education systems and support teachers like your sister who are doing their best to combat the results of prejudice and discrimination on the ground.

That is all.

Remembering all that you went through, I think that perhaps you might find some empathy for those who also grow up poor, sometimes without family support, and are stereotyped for things that don't define their character.

I do empathize Bob. One thing that is hard to do in blog, is convey facial expression, emotion and tone of voice. I don't want to end every sentence with a smiley face or the like.

I could have certainly used support and guidance when I was younger. What I needed even more than that was discipline, education (not talking school education but education for Life), rules, mentor/role model, a strong father figure, and to learn the lesson that I was just an impressionable immature kid who did NOT have all of lifes answers alreaady solved. While I do want to give compassion and empathy towards those downtrodden, no matter the race, I still believe the problem goes deeper than just building a bigger school room. It goes deeper than just cutting a tax-payer funded check to the family and not caring about how they spend it.

I would think you'd want to reach out and help those kids who are going through as much struggle as you did rather than lecturing them.

I DO want to help, Bob. That's why I even bothered to speak up on this thread. Sometimes, Bob, an impressionable youth NEEDS a lecture AS WELL AS sympathy. And if they aren't getting the lecture from home, then dammit, Boom's gonna give it. I KNOW there are poverty-stricken youth who come from homes with decent parents who are struggling to make ends meet. These are not forgotten. Rather these are not being addressed by me. That is different. I'm sticking with the youth that Cosby is talking about. He specifically talks about youth who's parents live the same life as the youth. A life of irresponsibility. I know that DOES NOT apply to all African Americans nor to all those in poverty. That is a given. You should keep that in mind and not apply my statments as a blanket across everybody.

If we're serious about reaching poor kids and motivating them, we need to try and understand them enough that we don't seem patronizing and destroy their self-esteem.

It's already a given, as well, that I am not a speaker like Cosby. I haven't majored in public speaking. If I'm offensive, sometimes, so be it, I'm around people all the time who have no problem offending me and don't give a hoot about it. That's life. If it destroyed my self-esteem, then there's far bigger problems going on than anybody can address in a blog. I don't mean to be patronizing and cold. Life can be brutal. We need to toughen up in order to survive. And I don't mean toughen up in a thug way. I mean we need to instill pride and culture and self-worth at a far earlier age than the age of those who would be reading a blog. If somebody's a bad parent, Bob, no, I'm not going to be nice and sympathize. I'm going to let them have it. They are fucking up a young innocent life.

But for those who are denied many of those things every kid deserves through no fault of their own, grandstanding about their poor choices in life doesn't seem productive or helpful.

I agree. And I repeat, my comments, and I interpret Cosby's comments as well, are NOT addressed to those who have no control over the situation they are in. These comments are addressed to those who exhibit irresponsible behavior.

Parenting in this country is a problem in general; isolating poor black families as being uniquely poor parents with poor priorities seems cruel, unnecessary and untrue.

I wasn't the one who got up in front of the NAACP and made the comments, Bob. I think it would have been a little silly for Cosby to have talked to them about white kids parenting irresponsibility. He wouldn't have opened a debate like he intended. Black families weren't singled out, as much as they were addressed. Should somebody speak to white parents about irresponsible behavior, rest assured I'd be saying 'Here! here!'. Unfortunately, the only people who speak out like that, are people like Dr. Laura, who I won't listen to for the reason that she considers me a biological error.

If there are poor choices people make that affect their families (things like being a dope addict), we should do our best to give them resources to overcome their problems

There ARE resources out there already for those that choose them. Somebody has to WANT to be helped with those resources before they are of any use. I am not addressing those that want help but can't get it. I am addressing those that DON'T want that kind of help. Those irresponsible people are of ALL races, as I have said ad nauseum. However, the reason why African Americans were singled out by me, is because that is what this thread is about. Start a thread about white crack-addicted trash who runs from the clinic, rather than to it, and who raises an infant in a rat infested apartment and rest assured I'll be over on that thread offering my comments.

And we shouldn't let our moral language about choice distract us from our ETHICAL call to change the structural injustices that make survival and those "good" choices extremely difficult for far too many for far too long. That's something that I've said a couple of times now that I don't think any of you are responsive to.

Do you want to know why I, personally, am not responsive to that, Bob? Because I am gay. The LAST thing I want is some social program who's function it is to instill moral behavior. Who gets to determine what is moral? I certainly know I am. But I can specifically name about a half dozen bloggers on this site alone who will tell you otherwise. The good choices in life need to stem from the parent, and NOWHERE ELSE.

I hope THAT element of racism in America moves you as much as your visceral reaction to seeing a "street thug" wearing "$500 sneakers" and "not speaking English."

Yet again, Bob, I think there are plenty of people in life, of all races, who make poor choices. You oughta see my visceral reaction to a 400 pound woman pushing a shopping cart down the ice cream aisle wearing SPANDEX. Life is full of choices we all can make. I sympathize up to a point. That sympathy ends when irresponsibility for one's behavior is suddenly not one's own fault.

Ethics isn't about judgment; it's about responsibility. In order for us to demand that others take responsibility, we have to show some ourselves in the way we deal with other human beings.

I agree with you Bob. Reading this thread, EVERYBODY agrees with you. We DO show responsibility with many many social programs. There are also programs that can be improved. One thing that would really help those down and out kids, is to quit locking their parents in jail for dope. Quit treating it as a crime rather than an addiction. That's been addressed by myself and others on a different thread. It'd be nice if we could give everybody a house, an education, free health care, clothing and food. If everybody in America was given that though, how many people would continue to work? How many people would continue to work for a paycheck if they had no more mortgage, no insurance costs, no clothes to buy, all the food they need, etc?

I don't see anything wrong with continuing to help those down and out through no fault of their own, while preaching the benefits of personal responsibility. That's what I've done, that was my intent and that's what I'll continue to believe.

1. That is part of the reason why I stopped posting as much. Whats the point when some people get to constantly post nearly whole articles or just plain pap and no one cares. I used to put a lot of care into some of the things I wrote for here... then I saw what was going on and I just didn't care so much. I only post something now if I feel REALLY STRONGLY about something. I feel a lot better off because of it. I've notice that a few other people have kinda stopped posting as much as well... AND IRONICALLY then came the return of some of the more thick neo-cons. Very interesting.

2. Bill Cosby is SOOO full of shit. He's always about black pride and bullshit. Then he would hire a ton of MIXED people to be in his projects (The Cosby Show, A Different World).

Bill Cosby is so "what the fuck ever". I just roll my eyes when he opens his mouth. He's out of touch beyond out of touch. I don't pay attention to anything HE has to say.

3. Finally there comes a time when there is no point in even arguing- no one is going to change their mind so why bother? This place isn't the place to go to try to win hearts and minds.

No one here is stupid, people know what goes into stories and what doesn't. There are all different kinds of posts here and that is okay as long certain minimum requirements of attribution, etc., are met, which I have discussed above.

No one is getting any kind of "undeserved credit" or whatever, people are well aware of who does what.

The overall volume of posts (high and getting higher all the time) and their quality (high and getting higher all the time) is about the least of our worries.

Olsen, darling.

Come on :) Let's be real. There are a couple of stupid folks around here. I've already figured out a couple in my short time with you beautiful freaks. No names though. We all know which ones.

Oh, and I'm going to have one of my Simon moments cuz I want that elusive credit: I'm the reason the quality's higher. Sadly, I might also be a reason the volume's up too. But I want credit as everyone's favorite new gadfly. Now. Chop chop :) Tell me what a wonderful delight I am, all of you. I want to be the BlogCritic Idol.

Seriously, though, BoomCrash: you're alright. Perhaps I'm just harder on what you say since you seem smarter than most of the other contributors on here so far. Your statements have grown more reasonable, too, since I think I first ridiculed something you said about American Idol and Diana DeGarmo :)

Tek: so dour, cynical and defeatist. I've run out of adjectives. Have some Jell-O.

And on a most serious note to all of you: I was in a club here in Chicago a couple months ago doing my thing and this girl comes up and starts talking me up. She looked like a fatter, grown-up version of that Raven Simone girl from the Cosby show (Olivia, was it?) Anyway, I was drunk and there with my bitch at the time (yes, I said bitch, Tek) and I had forgotten what that Cosby girl's name was. So I told her she looked like a Cosby kid and she laughed. She thought it was funny until she asked me questions about myself and I kept starting my answers with, "Ya know, Cosby kid ..." and she went back to her friends. And that was only the second or third time a black chick has hit on me ever. I'd heal all the racial divides of the world personally but I'm not as much of a wound healer as Dr. Cosby is. Now you can all learn to be smooth like Bob. Feel free to steal that story.

Sorry, I had to say something that RJ Elliot could follow. I now abdicate all moral high ground and have fallen off my high horse for good. I'm repeating myself anyway and apparently everyone agrees with me, according to BoomCrash.

Booey ... OUT!

^^Yes, the quality...

Getting better all the time.

Yo! It time ta git all ignat up in heeer...

All u bitches and playas in da haaaaus, better be ret ta REPRESENT,Yo!

CHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGOOO, Nor'side hooooochie!

PEACE!

I try to not make comments personal, although sometimes they do get construed as such.

While there's been a lot of complaints lately about the 'flames' on this site, I can't help but compare the situation to Fox News or Air America, etc. There are multi million dollar corporations out there who slam each other, and their public figures on an hourly basis. How is this supposed to be 'better'? I see this site as CrossFire or Point/CounterPoint with the camera turned off. This is probably how it really goes down during commercials.

Not to encourage flaming of course, I just don't see why this site should be held to a higher standard than any other site or political news show or whatever, in terms of civility. Having said that, I do try to criticize the ideology rather than the individual with name calling, but for me that is a matter of character. I'm not perfect or righteous, just trying to be a considerate human in a world gone mad.

Don't know what you think of me, Ms. Tek, but I do miss your posts. I did put thought into them when I read them, so don't feel that the time you spent in the past was in vain.

I came into this pretty late, but I'd like to share my point of view. I am a white female. My up-bringing was not what could be defined as "priviledged." My parents sacrificed greatly in order to send my sister and myself to a parochial school through eighth grade. After middle school, because of all of the incurred debt, they had no choice but to send me to public school.

That was probably the best gift that my parents could have given me. The lifestyle that I had grown accustommed to had created in me a slightly snobbish attitude. I attended the 2nd lowest rated high school in our area, with one of the highest violence ratings at the time. The students that attended this school were from every background immagineable, amazingly diverse. I never knew of the change in my attitude until a friend brought it to my attention. He told me that when I had first begun attending, I "looked mean," the truth is I was terrified. I had no idea what to expect, the students around me spoke so differently than I, dressed so differently, and had completely differing interests. I adapted, and familiarized myself with their "culture." My look of meanness left. That experience changed my life, it gave me the opportunity to internally analyze myself and I am ever thankful for it.

The formal education, however, was extremely wanting. My honors level 9th grade English class taught capitalization and punctuation. It was not until my 11th grade year that Pre-calculus was offered at the school, and the very first AP American History and AP English classes were offered. I graduated in 1998.

Now, I gave that information so that anyone might overlook the idea that I am a member of the "priviledged class" and assume that I have no knowledge of what I am about to say.

Bill Cosby is attempting to empower the youth of today. He is waving to them, jumping up and down joyously, screaming, "You can have this too, if you are just willing to put in the effort!!"

The internet is available to anyone who is willing to go to the library, there are reference books in that library, the school counselors office or the school library has reference books available. Anyone who is willing to take the time to learn how to take advantage of these tools and use them to their benefit can get the education they need to further themselves. Librarians are more than happy to help if teachers are unavailable.

Someone mentioned "doubling in the experience of race and minorities are almost forced to have two selves in order to negotiate different worlds." In my limited experience, this was not always the case. many of the students (that this statement applies to, I am by no means generalizing or attempting to stereotype) I observed were as disrespectful to their parents and teachers as they were to each other and themselves. At 15 I was able to recognize this behavior. By that time I had been able to develop positive relationships with people from a plethora of backgrounds. Over time I learned to respectfully ask questions about the things that puzzled me. For instance, sneakers, a very close friend of mine wanted a certain pair of sneakers and was willing to spend the obscene amount of money on a pare that were incorrectly for his feet. He scoffed at my suggestion that they would hurt and cause damage to his back. He truly did not care and was confused that I did not understand his sacrifice for style. He and I also discussed the use of the word "Nigga," (which I have come to abhor, it is disrepectful and ugly) vs. the word "Nigger" (which is equally disgusting). I believe that both words are degrading, the negative connotations surrounding the latter word and the usage of either words from a member outside of the "in-crowd" support that belief. However, he did not agree, he argued that the first word was used only ase a term of endearment and with close friends (had I been the one to shout it accross a room, though, I would have died within minutes). That made as much sense to me as calling my mother a bitch for no reason other than that I wanted to let her know that I care (that would not have gone over well). I had many, wonderful and profound conversations with a number of friends. Still, others I had trouble even conveying my confusion to, they did not understand. In some of these people's lives there was no duality of "self."

They had no drive to accomplish more or to extend their vision beyond what had been offered them. These are the same people that refuse to vote, because their vote "doesn't matter" and when you try to explain to them that if they all actually went to the polls, our country could actually develop into a country governed "by the people, for the people," they scoff and deny the possibility. They feel as though they have lost hope, yet when you try to tell them it is within themselves, that their fate truly lies in their own decisions, and their own drive, they gaze at you in disbelief.

It is about time that someone publicly said what Cosby did, I think he said it in the perfect venue, and it saddens me that it is something that had to be said.

"Oh, you are 'teaching' people, again, RJ Elliott?"

I'm not the one who provided the "lesson", MD.

"As for any erasures, I'm not aware of any, but if they exist, I don't care."

So, I guess you don't care about following the rules of BC then, huh? Figures.

"The fact that attack threads such as yours cited above stay on the site tells anyone interested all he or she needs to know."

The "attack thread" you cite merely asked if there was any mechanism in place to deal with people (like you)who consistently engage in vicious personal attacks on other posters. At the time, there wasn't. Now there are such enforcement mechanisims. Not that you care.

"All u bitches and playas in da haaaaus, better be ret ta REPRESENT,Yo!

"CHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGOOO, Nor'side hooooochie!

"PEACE!"

Aw, Tek. Don't you be playa hatin' now. Dat boy be habbin' some mad flo', you know, ho? So, it don't madda a motha-fuck if he be soundin' like a foo'. Tru?

Blogcritics never fails to disappoint. I mean, it's pretty difficult to restrict personal comments on people when so many people's responses are filled with personal neuroses.

This is a thread about what Cosby said to HIS people. What he thinks is wrong with HIS people in the world today. From HIS perspective. Is it a lie? Are black kids today not more interested in the bling bling than understanding English? It's the truth. It's a fact. THAT is what Cosby is saying. He is not condemning the entire African American community. WHAT IS WRONG with Cosby stating that? Are the 400 years of slavery going to be the excuse till kingdom come?

Of course we have white trailer trash. THAT WAS NOT THE POINT on the day. He was talking at a gathering of black people. We are not comparing poor black families to poor white families.

Some people really need to get the chip off their shoulders and try and stop allowing their personal baggage crowd their opinions on a simple and straight forward topic such as this. There are many topics where one's personal experiences are necessary in getting one's opinion across. However, THIS is not one of them. This is not the topic for a white man or woman to try and explain how they understand the plight of the blacks and try and patronise with complaints about their own problems. It is not the topic for a black man or woman to start explaining the system and how black people are dying and suffering as an excuse for why little black boys are more interested in the bling rather than learning English.

Ms Tek says "Bill Cosby is SOOO full of shit. He's always about black pride and bullshit. Then he would hire a ton of MIXED people to be in his projects (The Cosby Show, A Different World)."...

Listen to Ms Tek. Are MIXED people White? Or are they Black? If Black people are complaining about racism and then turn around and get angry at Cosby for hiring "Mixed" people in his show then what point are they making? The world sees mixed people as black. The black people are angry at mixed people because they have a bit of white in them. White people are angry at mixed people because they have a bit of black in them. Mixed people are just laughing all the way.

Some black people are as racists as white people. So, while looking for the world to change perhaps they should start with changing themselves first.

If black people can go around calling themselves "nigger" as a term of endearment then I find it amusing that black people on this site are jumping down Cosby's throat because he said the lower classes have misguided priorities. He said nothing wrong. You either agree with his comment or you don't. His comment has nothing to do with the major race issues. It is an attack on sections of the black community. One that should have been said years ago.

I'm afraid you can not go into a Law firm with baggy pants and dread locks and ask for a job. If you do not get it and start chanting racism, you are even more of an idiot than you look. I'm afraid you can not go to a bank and ask for a job when you can not speak English. If you don't get it and start chanting racism you are even more of a dunce than you look. Cosby said it. The reasonable person should understand Cosby. Those who do not, in my opinion, just have issues and are using Cosby's comments to purge them. His comments were not terribly complicated.

It is the wonder of this site that we have got this much out of a man's simple observations. Just think what we would have been capable of had we been around in the days of Freud.

RJ, you are obstinately refusing to recognize the plain fact that Mac Diva is recognized as an Angry Black Person. Therefore, normal rules of civility and rational argument do not apply to her.

Wait, did I say that out loud? I'm sorry. We're not supposed to say things that might cheese off even one black person, or that will make you a RACIST monster with no credibility. Truth is not considered a defense.

Which is why the Cos is getting so much grief over saying a few critical things that are unassailably true to begin with.

correction..as racist-not racists

Sandra: your psychiatrist cringes at your lack of knowledge about psychology and your endless rambling that never makes any point at all. Let me paraphrase what you said: "Either you disagree or agree ... Cosby's statements have nothing to do with race issues, they're just an attack on part of the black community that deserves it." Yeah, logic's not your strong suit.

Does your projection never end?

That is all.

Funny how my "ramblings" make no point at all, yet you have perfectly encapsulated the main thrust of my comments in just a few sentences:) Your gift for brevity must be applauded..sigh! I have no such gift. I do make up for it with intelligence and wit though.

While you on the other hand have been blessed with such excess stupidity and alarming ignorance, that you are a risk and threat to the human race. On that note, you will see why your views on what's logical or not are no concern of mine. Keep going around entertaining blogcritics with your particular brand of dumbness, Bobby. My superiority complex has reached an all time high since I have become aware of your existense. I know I can log on here, read your posts, laugh at how you are burdened with inferiority in all parts of your miserable existense and just generally feel super after laughing at you. Please, keep up the good work.

Sandra, I didn't know you spoke for all mixed people.

I'm MIXED. I am both BLACK and WHITE and I am proud of that. I would NEVER say I am something that I am not as that basically disregards the contribution of one parent. I didn't get here by asexual reproduction. I would be offended if someone said I should play a black person as much as I would be offended if someone said I should play a white person.

I could give a fuck what society has been saying... Society also once said if you have a mole on your body, you were a witch and the devil's lover. Society IS WRONG (the day when more people figure out that just because a group says something doesn't make them De-Facto correct we will be a lot better off.)

Hallie Berr