Frankly, I agree -- the present method is bogus. If your hypothesis is disproven, however, and people continue to tune in, don't expect the voting process to change. Any word on whether ratings of the present season have dropped since the LaToya and Jennifer outrages?

Hi,

Way to add no insight there.

There are simple reasons for last week's results. They were bogus, but understandable.

First, Jasmine CRIED. She's young, she's cute, she's vulnerable, and people empathized with her and called in to support her. They didn't like seeing her hurt.

Second, LaToya was a lil too cool and sure of herself. To roughly paraphrase what she said after one of her songs: "It doesn't matter what happens now. We're all winners and we'll all get recording deals, so I'm just having fun." America didn't respond well to her lack of personality and professional confidence in past weeks -- they certainly didn't feel motivated hearing those words. I don't think they were quite aware that she was the front-runner like the judges thought, and if they did, perhaps it worked against her and for the other contestants. LaToya clearly deserved to win -- this is Tamira Gray all over again. She was the best-looking, most camera-friendly of the singers and probably the best too if you're looking for a mainstream pop/R & B star.

Diana DeGarmo will win the contest. Fantasia is the far better singer, but she'll be too quirky for white Middle America and her comments about being a single mother won't help her much. Diana isn't Idol material -- she's a powerful singer, but she's too weird and too saccharine to sell any records. How do you market her? Hillary Duff style kiddie-friendly pop? She's not cute enough. She's not mature enough to do what Kelly Clarkston does.

Simon will also likely leave the show after this year and not only because he won't be happy with that result. The show will lose credibility with fans and will be revamped for next season. It won't matter if Simon leaves.

That is all.

Hi,

Way to add no insight there.

There are simple reasons for last week's results. They were bogus, but understandable.

First, Jasmine CRIED. She's young, she's cute, she's vulnerable, and people empathized with her and called in to support her. They didn't like seeing her hurt.

Second, LaToya was a lil too cool and sure of herself. To roughly paraphrase what she said after one of her songs: "It doesn't matter what happens now. We're all winners and we'll all get recording deals, so I'm just having fun." America didn't respond well to her lack of personality and professional confidence in past weeks -- they certainly didn't feel motivated hearing those words. I don't think they were quite aware that she was the front-runner like the judges thought, and if they did, perhaps it worked against her and for the other contestants. LaToya clearly deserved to win -- this is Tamira Gray all over again. She was the best-looking, most camera-friendly of the singers and probably the best too if you're looking for a mainstream pop/R & B star.

Diana DeGarmo will win the contest. Fantasia is the far better singer, but she'll be too quirky for white Middle America and her comments about being a single mother won't help her much. Diana isn't Idol material -- she's a powerful singer, but she's too weird and too saccharine to sell any records. How do you market her? Hillary Duff style kiddie-friendly pop? She's not cute enough. She's not mature enough to do what Kelly Clarkston does.

Simon will also likely leave the show after this year and not only because he won't be happy with that result. The show will lose credibility with fans and will be revamped for next season even if he stays. But all that won't matter if Simon leaves and the show will become an afterthought.

Either way, Paula will likely leave. Simon seems to like her, but there's something bizarre going on with her and she's not making for good TV.

That is all.

While I don't think any of the singers was very good last week, Jasmine was embarassing. She, like, but more than the others, was consistently off key. But this show is not about finding the best singer, is it? If it were, why would we care about clothing, weight, hair or entrances? It is about finding a star, an entertainer...dare I say an Idol? That is more than the singing, it is the total package.

In other words, 'Bob,' there is something wrong with another of the African-American contestants.

Second, LaToya was a lil too cool and sure of herself. To roughly paraphrase what she said after one of her songs: "It doesn't matter what happens now. We're all winners and we'll all get recording deals, so I'm just having fun." America didn't respond well to her lack of personality and professional confidence in past weeks -- they certainly didn't feel motivated hearing those words. I don't think they were quite aware that she was the front-runner like the judges thought, and if they did, perhaps it worked against her and for the other contestants. LaToya clearly deserved to win -- this is Tamira Gray all over again. She was the best-looking, most camera-friendly of the singers and probably the best too if you're looking for a mainstream pop/R & B star.


And, the 'something wrong' is something that would be good if she were not African-American -- self-confidence.

My Native American grandmother used to say white people have no sense of shame. When I read comments like Bob's, I think she may have had a point.

And, where are your cojones, Howard? You manage to discuss the problem for a half dozen grafs without naming it. Why not just come out and say say racial bias appears to be influencing voting?

Natalie, I agree that the producers care about making money only. Unless the public shames them into altering the voting process, they will not.

i still think this has nothing to do with race and everything to do with AGE.

the youger the audience viewer, the more likely the kid will identify with the younger-seeming contestants....AND the more likely to have plenty of time for text messaging.

That is easily disproved, Mark. Hardly any of the persons selected are over 25. There is simply little difference in regard to that criterion. Kid yourself that people are sitting around saying, 'I'm gonna vote for A because she is 17, not B because she is 20 and that is so-o-o old,' if you want to. But, I doubt that is happening. A statistical model would show that low votes correlates with race. I've done this for Title VII cases in which the discrimination is a lot less apparent. And, please don't trot out the inane argument that if even one African-American has done well, there is no discrimination. Tain't so. One must look at the overall demographics. In a city where the population is 50 percent of the adult population is Hispanic, for example, but only 10 percent of employees of the local foundry are Hispanic, there is surely discrimination going on.

I am curious whether you are buying 'Bob's' claim that there is something wrong with African-Americans having self-confidence, too.

Bob - Simon has a contract for two more seasons of AI. If he breaks that, he's walking away from a lot of $$$, likely much more than he regularly makes (or made) in the recording biz. He was the last holdout judge for AI and that was a source of discomfort for Paula and Randy.

Simon will be back unless he is interested in a serious cut in pay. His attempts to profit from his AI success in other areas than AI haven't been too successful.

Simon himself said the show was winding down before this season even started and he would be surprised if it lasted more than a couple years.

md, all i'm saying is that if you compare combody like degarmo vs. london, the age difference (and singing style) are worlds apart.

and i just think that maybe there are more younger kids who identify with that 'younger' style.

who's the best singer of the 3 left? obviously fantasia (luv that combination of aretha & macy gray)...but who will win? dunno. at this point, nothing would surprise me.

Learn to read.

Some facts:
First, I'm not white.
Second, I agree that racial bias influences voting. Tamira Gray, Jennifer Hudson, LaToya London. That's why I said Diana will win despite the fact that she makes my skin crawl and is nowhere near Fantasia's level. I hope not, but I'm worried that Fantasia's being a single mom will hurt her with Southern and Midwestern types.
Third, I liked LaToya's confidence. I, unlike America, don't have a problem with a black woman being confident and self-possessed. I found it compelling and I liked her the best. She's hot. I'd do her. Hard. Shame? None. Notice the part where I say "LaToya deserved to win" in the section you quote above.

The point I was making, for all of you with poor reading comprehension, is that she didn't seem competitive enough last week. She made a tactical error in saying that they'd all get contracts anyway because it reduced people's motivation to vote for her. Particularly since it was such an emotional show and since her only real weakness was her lack of emotional connection with the audience through her personality. She was so polished and professional it may have worked against her -- people seem to gravitate toward those with rougher edges in such amateur contests (George Huff, anyone?) who make "transformations" from regular folks to stars the way our lil trailer park princess Kelly Clarkston or our favorite uber-nerd Clay Aiken did. LaToya came in looking and singing like a star and it's possible America just didn't think she NEEDED this contest. They're wrong in assuming that, but it's very possible. I'm not sure that part of it had anything to do with race, although I'm also always one to read race into everything. All told, LaToya will be the biggest star of this group, regardless of the voting. Diana DeGarmo will be a bad punchline after she wins this contest within two years. Understand now?

TDavid: That was the part of my post I was most unsure about because I think I remember him signing a multi-year contract as well. I remember there was huge drama about his return for this season, but I guess he'll stick around. I do think he's right that the show will eventually plateau, and it's great that he'd say that on-air about ratings in some silly fluff interview show. Go Simon. You notice that Seacrest Out didn't ask him who'd win, because he would have actually given a straight answer (and probably influenced voting for Fantasia).

As an aside, Simon's gotta stop with the tight T-shirts, though -- when you saw him from the side, he's a lil too bulky to pull that off. He's got a lil bit of a gut and a lil man boobage -- it's nothing TOO horrible, but he's not that buff. He's doing alright for a man of his age, I suppose. The tan's disturbing too.

Seacrest Out! (It's legal in more states now.)

Mac Diva - nobody is selected over 24 because that is one of the rules for entering the competition. So your statement about "Hardly any of the persons selected are over 25" is inaccurate.

The fact is that nobody has been selected over 24 to compete, and therefore definitely not "over 25" although some people have tried making the case that there should be no age limit.

If Fantasia doesn't win, it will be a crime, and I've been saying that for six or eight weeks. She's clearly the most polished performer and best vocalist. Her performance of "Summertime" was Billie Holiday or Etta James worthy. She would be a major talent in any generation.

LaToya is a great singer and capable performer and probably the second best of the contestants, followed by George Huff and Jennifer Hudson.

Last week Diana DeGarmo put in her two best performances of the contest. She outshown even Fantasia last week. It was the first time ever that she came across as a polished pro. If she wins, the teeny boppers will buy her records, and given the teenybopper demographic, her beating Fantasia is clearly a possibility, though it would be wrong, so wrong.

Racism. That was my first reaction when Stevens beat Hudson, but then you go online and read all of the teenyboppers saying things like, "Yeah, he can't sing, but he's soooooo cute. He should win." Clearly, there is a youngster demographic that is a large voting block, and they are aligning behind the less mature singers. The top four black artists on this show (and all four are artists) have a much older appeal, especially Fantasia, London and Huff. They remind us oldsters of people like Holiday, Ella and Redding, not Britney and Christine. I'm sure the kids recognize that these three are not going to produce music of interest to them.

As for last week's vote, Hawaii is in a different time zone (six hours from the EC, three from the West), which makes a huge difference in the availability of free lines. Plus a radio station there was urging people to vote for Jasmine. So, again, racism is probably not a factor. Also, Jasmine isn't exactly lilly white. Nor is Diana.

Are there people who won't vote for black performers? Of course there are. But are there enough of those racist out there to skew the contest? Maybe, if the votes were closer.

If Fantasia doesn't win, then there will be even more cries of racism. If Jasmine wins, then people will say that the fix is in because vocally she is weak and if Diana wins (which is what I believe will happen - but it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong), people will say she just won because of her age.

FOX is screwed publically no matter what the results are because the best talent is gone. I think La Toya was the best vocally, had the most class and was the most mature of the bunch. Her problem, I think, was that America thought she was a lock and thus voted for the other contestants. This is the achilles heel in the voting model. If the inverse was done: fans voting people off, instead of on, then I think La Toya would still be in the competition and flower girl from Hawaii would be gone.

I was rooting for La Toya and hoping that she would win. Pretty much all the contestants in the final ten are winners though. La Toya will get a record deal.

Runner-ups can be successful, just look at Clay Aiken.

However, I think the voting system is in need of some change for AI season four or folks will abandon the show, or at least reduce their viewing, if they aren't already.

BTW: Here's my fix for the voting ... If your phone blocks caller ID, you don't vote. And once your call via caller ID has been logged, you can't vote again.

Also, allow voting on the Web. Major League baseball has gotten pretty good at blocking ballot-box stuffers for the All-Star Game. Get their technology and employ it on IdolOnFox.com.

Also, I like the suggestion above of changing it to "voting people off" instead of who to keep.

Oh, and Simon with the cheap black t-shirts? That's his signature. He can't give up that. Easiest wardrobe ever.

They should give him a Darth Vader mask to come out in one week and play the Imperial Death March when he comes on stage.

Maybe AI and Lucas will hook up for the release of Star Wars III for some cross promotion :)

Well, lurking around again....haven't been to the Blog site in awhile, just enjoying the stories and posts, and amazingly, soMeone Annoyingly Converts this to a Damned Idiotic Very Asinine racial bias discussion. It is quite amazing the way the "man" gets around putting his thumb on everything. It's always a conspiracy, isn't it? I can think of a couple of things i'd like to put my thumb on, though....

After seeing the term 'racist' thrown around here at BC enough to make it nearly meaningless, this thread exhibits the clearest examples I've yet seen. First, to believe that a grand conspiracy exists to deprive a race of victory in a pointless exercise in ‘pretty yodeling’ is unbelievable. If you can’t find better examples than this, preferably that affects more than three people, I’d say discrimination must have been eradicated. Most people don’t like anyone who acts over-confident. Best example: Bush. It has nothing to do with race.
My favorite part is after a critic accuses a poster of racial bias the poster returns, “I’m not white.” Because of course, only white people can discriminate. What if my Native American grandmother told me black people have no shame? Is that Ok too?
The fact that I immediately notice these fairly unimportant little instances of jumping on white people is exactly the same as how Mac immediately notices the same. So let’s all get the fuck over it and go back to arguing about guitars and shit.
Ant

LOL @ 'Bob.' It is funny how so many white people saying bigoted things at Blogcritics suddenly turn non-white when challenged. I suspect he did the same thing under at least one other screen name. Same claims, same writing style. Same sudden change of race. His goal being to spread racist thinking and then try to wriggle out of it. Furthermore, even if a person of color said the things 'Bob' said, they are still evidence of bigotry.

I've rarely watched AI and don't claim to be an expert on the rules. I knew from observation that all the contestants are young. My point stands. The program itself negates age as a criterion. So, people are not voting with that as a significant reason.

As for getting back to discussing banalities such as what is someone's favorite guitar, that is the kind of inane attitude that makes America the disgrace it is when it comes to equality among its citizens. I'm glad a serious issue made it into entertainment news. Considering the scope of racial bias is much more important to the future of the country than whether Britney has a bikini wax.

The program itself negates age as a criterion. So, people are not voting with that as a significant reason.

how so? i mean, we hardly have access to the voting data.

TDavid and Howard, I would be down with a program that has older contestants. I believe much of what is being criticized in the contestants' singing and styles would have been corrected by many people 25 or older. Hope it would, anyway. I think many of the contestants have been too isolated to get good advice. Even with Fantasia, her world consists of the church circuit in and around North Carolina. I don't why more of the kids who have applied to or attend music schools and schools for the arts don't turn up on American Idol.

Mark, there are ways to get a profile of voters. And, no, it is does not involve visiting all those homes to confirm who voters are. If AI does it, they keep it to themselves, of course. The online voting Howard suggests would make honest voting easier. With high speed access approaching half of users, it is getting pretty simple to keep tabs. If people know their identities are trackable, that is a disincentive for multiple voting, at least.

Mac, with all due respect, I find your comment about what to discuss a bit elitist. Racism is important, but guitars are fun. Each has it's place. IMHO. Not every discussion needs to be weighty. Trivia is part of the human experience, too. Britney's bikini wax isn't my cup of tea for a conversation, but whether a Fender Strat is better than a Gretch Country Gentleman is (I'll take the Gretch, btw).

Also, the age issue has more to it than chronology, which is what I was getting at in comparing Jasmine and Fantasia. You can be 25 and appeal more to 14-year-olders than a 15-year-old. It's all about style, not age.

As for your last question. Good question. I don't have an answer, but I don't think the quality of the show (or lack of it) depends on how many kids from Julliard apply. Of course, one of the shows criteria be that your goal is to be a pop star, so if your goal is to be the next Mario Lanza or Pavoratti, this isn't the show for you.

I think it would be cool to do a copy-cat show -- "Who is the Next Guitar God" or "Who Wants to be a Great Jazz Idol?" Etc. It would be fun to see talent shows that focus on talents other than singing. How about comedy, or acting? But back to my original point, people will sour on all of these if they feel that criteria other than actual star quality (which I think Fantasia (and LaToya to a lesser extent) has) or talent is the deciding factor. Discriminating viewers will stop watching, and I would like to believe that is a large enough segment to destroy the show. But then, there are a lot of baseball fans (like me) who are totally pissed off at the current state of the game, but we keep watching an buying tickets. So maybe I'm wrong.

I participate in my share of non-weighty discussions, Howard. But, I don't think talk of important matters should be excluded. Several of the people here appear on threads that discuss race and try to shut them down regularly. It is that pattern I take issue with.

Understood ... I've been away from BC for a while.

We started watching AI last season and thought it was interesting. So we watched it this season, but after LaToya got dumped, I can't get anybody in this house to watch it anymore, so Fox lost this household. It wasn't due so much to the fact that we were upset our favorite got booted, but because of the way the voting goes. All the complaints about the voting justify that a lot of people are upset.

WHATEVER the reason is, whether it is racial, whether it is speed dialing, whether it is jammed phone lines or prepubescent voters with no concept of what talent is, whatever, it seems that a lot of people will probably quit watching unless Fox does something.

I used to like Fantasia. I still think she has a good voice, but I find her annoying now, trying all sorts of tactics that have nothing to do with performance to stay in the show.

Once the person you like goes, the show isn't as interesting anymore. We experienced the same feeling with Big Brother last year (another show we won't watch again, I can't believe we were sucked into it last season), as well as Survivor. There will be people you like and people you hate. Once the people you like are gone, who wants to watch the show? The way we feel right now, who cares if Jasmine, Diana or Fantasia wins? We wouldn't buy any of their CD's. We wouldn't go to any of their performances. So who cares anymore?

But isn't the whole idea having a contest to pick the "best" singer somewhat artifical? What are the criteria that make someone an Idol? I know that's the "What is art?" discussion and I don't want to get into it.

But I was thinking, why don't they have a Music Olympics? That way, there would be simple standards that would exclude all talk of art & artistic merit. You know, a highest note category, a loudest voice category, etc. That way there could be no jury rigging or fixing - just take the measurements and declare the winner. How many notes per minute (NPM) were in this guy's guitar solo? And in which division - acoustic or electric? There could even be associated categories - longest hair, most wattage in the light show - hey, I think I just fixed AI!!!

Mac,

You are not very bright. You clearly have no reading comprehension and little formal education. This isn't about your color, it's about YOU. You clearly spend too much time online -- I'm not sure who your internet "race passing" buddies are, but you need to get out more. It's almost as if you didn't read a WORD of my last post, you twit. Anyone who's following this discussion realizes how inane your argument and "analysis" is.

Here's a little something from today's New York Times, a paper I'm sure none of you read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/19/arts/television/19IDOL.html?ex=1085544000&en=c54ce33ba72ab45a&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

VIRGINIA HEFFERNAN Who's going to win "American Idol"?

SIMON COWELL Diana DeGarmo.

HEFFERNAN Oh, good Lord.

COWELL I thought she was a stage-school brat when I first met her. But she's quite a nice girl. And she's our little Seabiscuit.

HEFFERNAN Why did La Toya London, who's such a good singer, get kicked off last week?

COWELL She was very cold. She could have been a robot for all the emotion or personality she put over. And she said something very stupid. She had a little bit of criticism, and she said: "I'm not the slightest bit worried. We're all winners now. We're all going to have successful careers." When she said it, I said, "She's out." Because America decides whether they're going to have successful careers. To say that was verging on arrogance.

**End quote**

Admit you're stupid. I'm smarter and a better critic than any of you. Simon made the exact same arguments I did 2 days ago.

MacDiva: what have I said that's racist? Please do tell. This should be good. I'd wager that your experience and understanding of racism in life is negligible outside your "internet circles" -- some of us actually experience life outside a computer screen.

I should add this, though. The only correct thing you've said is that we need to discuss racism, particularly in media. We live in a world where black folks and white folks watch entirely different programming and much of network prime time TV STILL has either no characters of color or embarrassing tokens.

I've presented the only cogent analysis on race in this discussion. But feel free to ignore that since you want so desperately to believe you're not a sell-out when I call America out on its racial issues. You should be agreeing; God knows what your messed-up ideology is.

By the time the troll finishes, he will have revised his initial racist rant to echo everything I've said. But, the point for him is to have gotten that initial post up. Don't bother trying to find out who he is. The identifying information is faked.

Am I surprised Cowell would give his stamp of approval to whatever the outcome turns out to be? No at all. He has a vested interest in doing so.

MacDiva: you're paranoid and mentally ill. Your comments are NEVER based on anything I've said and it makes me suspect you're illiterate since you never refer to any actual words I've used. I'm glad you want to "internet stalk" me or whatever. I'm flattered, but calm down.

My point was that Cowell made the same point I did about LaToya's overconfident statement that cost her votes. Does that make him racist too?

Anyone else who's still reading this discussion realizes what a joke your take on this is, Mac. I suggest you think before adding more nonsense to this discussion.

Rant on, 'Bob.' You will have to change your screen name (for the third time?) if you aren't careful.

Meanwhile, I've got blogging to do.

If Fox isn't careful, it's going to destroy the American Idol franchise.

All I can say to this whole thread is: who gives a shit?

Hey speaking of Racism, anybody seen the movie "Friday" ? I saw it the other night, and it was hysterical.
By the way, you guys had better stop worrying about Black V White, 'cause the hispanics are takin' over.....

JMHO

Yeee-Haw!

Bob A. Booey, welcome to Blogcritics, where racists type in a special font visible only to the legendary MacDiva.

Congratulations.

You're now an official member of the fastest growing group in America: people who've been accused of racism on Blogcritics by our Native-American, Black, ex-journalist, ex-lawyer, multi-blogger, and close personal friend of many famous novelists, college professors, and neo-confederate ass-kickers.

Pull up a chair, put on yer imaginary hood, dust off yer invisible Confederate flag -- and grab yer shorts, babe.

Trust me: It gets worse.