Blogcritics: Comments on Struck the Deal and the Damage Done

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 18:27:55 EDT

Here are some links on point: Annan to investigate oil for food scandal Heritage foundation article Overall responsibility for the program's failure should lie with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, who in effect turned a blind eye to one of the biggest financial scandals of modern times. The U.N.'s inability to successfully manage the oil-for-food program represents a spectacular failure of leadership on the part of Mr. Annan. Article I wrote last year detailing the Oil for Food scandal, and it includes links to the UN and other legit sources with detail of who got what.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 18:21:55 EDT

And let me remind you, our invasion of Iraq follows 12 years of UN resolutions against Iraq that were not acted on. So we were in line with the rest of the world regarding whether or not Saddam posed a threat. These were UN resolutions agreed to by the same security counsel. When it came time to act on them, those with a financial interest balked and revealed their true position.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 18:19:26 EDT

Also note, the UN Security Counsel vote that would have been vetoed, there are 5 members who can veto - US, UK, China, France, Russia. When you consider the debt and the Oil for Food Programme (scandal), it's no wonder why the member states fell on the sides that thye did.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 18:16:19 EDT

OK fine. Oil for Food Programme. We felt that the sanctions were being reduced to nothing by French and Russian action. We wanted the UN to finish it's inspections. Instead they wanted more and more time. France and Russia covered for Saddam as they were two of the three greatest benefactors of the UN programme (which didn't feed anyone), yet they were in bed with him. Also, France and Russia, following the Baathist ouster, held Hussein era debt, crippling debt, over the Iraqis. They wanted in on the reconstruction. Finally they were guilted out of that and dropped Saddam's debts. Why should we have let that type of corruption direct our foriegn policy? This wasn't us "dismissing their concerns" - the U.N. is broken and has been for years now. Quadaffi is human rights chair for chrissakes!

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 18:11:13 EDT

Specific examples? We can go back to the invasion of Iraq. Easy.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 18:05:09 EDT

I disagree about uniforms unless we really want to turn our schools into a pink flyod-esque meat grinder. But it's neither here nor there. Your quote proves my point. The French ban targets muslims. That wont help relations, trust me. you say: " It is the blatant arrogance and dismissing of other nations concerns that bothers Eruos the most. It is a lack of genuine diplomacy." It's not enough to say it. I cited the Kyoto protocol because many Euros cite it as a grievance. You say Euros disagree with Bush's stance. That's fine but they have to respect his point of view and his desire to look out for whats best for his country (it's his job after all). Unfortunately, you have not addressed ANY of the points I made about why he made the decision not to sign with Kyoto. Until you can give a good reason why Euros disagree with Bush, then you shouldn't really be taking sides. Let me repaste your statement: "It is the blatant arrogance and dismissing of other nations concerns that bothers Eruos the most. It is a lack of genuine diplomacy." It's not enough to just say this. You must cite specific examples. If you cannot, then you shouldn't argue this point. I cited Kyoto.

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 17:54:00 EDT

No one said that the Kyoto agreement had to do with "attitude". Many Euros did not agree with Bush's position. But that is not the only example of Bush's unwillingness to work with the international community. What I think perhaps is the real problem is not so much Bush's not wanting to work with the international community - hell when you really look at it, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, etc.. etc.. have always followed rules that are only for the United States. It is the blatant arrogance and dismissing of other nations concerns that bothers Eruos the most. It is a lack of genuine diplomacy. As far as crosses are concerned, please look at this article

The law forbids religious apparel and signs that "conspicuously show" a student's religious affiliation. Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses would also be banned, but the law is aimed at removing Islamic head scarves from classrooms.

See, I am a HUGE proponet of secularism. I believe that at home, social, community things, sure... then wear your things if you must but in the workplace and school where a large gathering of people must be for set amount of time, then you can dictate uniform code. Hell, I think our public schools here in America would be better if everyone had to wear uniforms. The plays into my argument that if a person can be allowed to wear a headscarf or turban at work, why can a person not have a piercing or visible tattoo? Does religion give you more rights than not?

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 17:35:31 EDT

Your friends don't have to agree. But they MUST acknowledge that Bush made the decision to forego Kyoto because of real reasons and not some "attitude." So far, Euros have typically listed Kyoto as a grievance against the US, posing it as an example of our unwillingness to work with the global community since Bush was elected. If we choose not to agree to something not in our interest, is that attitude or just sanity? Regarding France, they will allow the display of crosses on schoolchildren. There is no question that the law there will favor Christians and not anyone else. As far as putting words in your mouth, i dont see it, but if you truly feel that way then I apologize.

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 17:29:05 EDT

Dude, you have been putting words in my mouth during this whole exchange which is amusing. How many of your European friends know this level of detail about Kyoto? Better yet, how many are willing to admit to the hypocrisy of Kyoto? Not so enlightened if you ask me. So if they don't agree with you or come to the same conclusions then it is hypocrisy and wrong? Look at france, they banned Bhurka's for chrissakes! It has not passed yet and they want to ban ALL religious attire in school. Head-scarves, turbans, large crosses. Is that enlightened or unenlightened? Neither one, they are trying to crack down on some of the problems that are going on in their school system. In all honesty, I tend to lean more on their side on this issue. If it is a public school then you should be made to conform to the rules set. If you wan to go to muslim school, then go to muslim school, if you want to go to catholic school, then go there. School is for learning secular things, if bringing in your religious stuff is going to cause disruption to the majority of the students, then that is a problem.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 17:11:57 EDT

BTW, I'd like to add something. You made the following statement: "China and India's market are exponentially making more demands for oil." It's interesting, but one of the beef's that many Euros have about the US is that we rejected the Kyoto protocol. Bush felt it would hamper our economy while allowing countries like India to pollute more than us. Does that sound like "attitude" or just good sense? Frankly, I happen to feel that whatever ecological treaty we sign with the rest of the world should hold ALL nations equally accountable for pollution. Kyoto did not, and Bush was 100% right in not supporting it. How many of your European friends know this level of detail about Kyoto? Better yet, how many are willing to admit to the hypocrisy of Kyoto? Not so enlightened if you ask me. Look at france, they banned Bhurka's for chrissakes! How enlightened is that? France and Russia involved in the Oil for Food scandal. So while they were claiming to help "contain" saddam, they were secretly getting killer deals on Oil and lining his pockets so he could buy more weapons and gold toilets. The Iraqi's still starved. Did Chirac ever ask Saddam to give some of that oil money for Food? No actually, the main benefactors of the UN Oil for Food programme (Russia, France and Egypt) simply rejected the US's call for Saddam's ouster. Then they tried to hold Saddam era debt over the Iraqis to get a piece of the reconstruction effort. Not too enlightened if you ask me. This is not an argument you are going to win. Emotionally, you may feel correct that the big bad US is the bane of the world. Factually, this is a global village. The people of this planet, ALL OF US, are of the same species, we have the same faults, and we ALL bear responsibility for the ills of society today. Until you stop throwing stones from across the lake, you will never understand that.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 17:01:52 EDT

at least for now. :>

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 17:01:09 EDT

fine, dont talk about the economy, but ultimately it's what feeds, clothes, shelters people. If you want to live al fresco thats your choice. But I'd rather take my chances with the U.S. and it's relations with OPEC.

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 16:56:30 EDT

Boom! There you are proving my point about the typical attitude right there. I never said anything specifically about the economy. Holland, Germany, the UK all have alternative ways to provide energy to homes on a large enough scale that should something dire happen, they don't need to spend a lot of time bumbling how to change over. They employ tidal and wind power to their energy needs. I have to say the most impressive, cool, neat, thing that I saw when I was over in March was a huge wind farm in the middle of what I think was the Irish Sea. And lets not forget the tidal turbines! tidal energy turbine They have this INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE which the US does not. The technology is being more actively developed over there. There is NO REASON with all the natural resources that the US has in place, that we don't use more solar and water based forms of alternative energy. Japan is at the forefront when it come to energy efficient cars. If anything this shows that you do not need to have a booming economy to be technologically innovative. To me it is scary that because there is no excuse for the US to be so behind in these things- beside its not a priority. The oil will not last forever. And the OPEC has been talking about switching over the the Euro as opposed the dollar for sale of oil. China and India's market are exponentially making more demands for oil. The middle east will make money no matter what. But the point ISN'T about the money. The point is not being reliant on something that is not infinite. As I said, we aren't talking about the economy, we're talking about the best uses for resources.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 16:29:21 EDT

BTW since so many doubt what I say: Economist.com on Germany Similar report on Japan I don't make this stuff up - I'm not that good :> Also note that Holland isn't even mentioned. Also by contrast, America's economy has been growing steadily. Yes, there are cyclical recessions, but there are also cyclical booms, and the trend has historically been up.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 16:24:19 EDT

For the sake of clarity, you keep referring to the "American attitude" and how we feel we are the "greatest thing since sliced bread," can you explain in what ways, specific examples, where we've acted like we are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 16:21:16 EDT

My comments must have hit a nerve. Like you I've lived a lifetime in my short number of years (I am still older than you but not by very much). I've also DJ'd (still do now), worked in a petstore, electrician, and a wide variety of other jobs before I found what I love. But I won't bore you wiht any of that. Oh yeah, I am positive that you are blessed, and if you aren't well then I hope you one day become blessed (I don't controll those things :>). It's funny how you talk about Germany and Holland having an infrastructure that could withstand no oil. Germany's horrid economy is partially why the UK hasn't gone to the Euro. If the ME cut off oil, ALL OF EUROPE would be hurting way worse than it is now. And believe me, as bad as the economy was here in the US, it was worse in Europe. This is an economic fact. Are you aware that Japan's economy is so bad right now, they suffered from a form of deflation, have an economy that hasn't perked up in over a decade, and the population there is actually contracting. GOD FORBID we ever became like Germany or Japan. And let me also add, the middle east would never cut us off. Why? Because we pay them. They value the trade just like we value the oil. And for giggles, assume that they did cut us off - I'm sure we'd cope better than anyone else out there.

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 15:54:55 EDT

1) I am older than I look. 2) Yeah, I'm blessed. Very, very, very, blessed, lucky, smart, and opportunistic. In my 28 years, I've lived more life than people who are 3 times my age. And this isn't some "punk rock I know better than you" thing. I've taken risks and put myself in positions where I got to see so many different aspects of life. I've worked in a comic book store, carriage driver, social worker, bouncer, DJ, bartender, waitress, Global systems analyst for a major company. When I see the opportunity to try something different, I do. I don't need to justify myself by comparing my life story to yours. Frankly, where as I know it would make astounding reading and could probably make a very good memoir even at this point in life, this isn;t about that. You can be 80 years old and still know fuck all and have been fuck all, and you can be 25 and have lived a lifetime. Its all matter of luck and personal choice. 3. You are telling me about getting out then in the next sentence saying "They have trailer trash too you know. With cockney accents no less." That there just shows ignorance on your part. First of all, no one is talking about "trash" of any kind. This isn't a discussion of which country has trashy or ghetto people. Don't turn it into something it is not. As far as getting out in the US, I've traveled the US and Canada as well. West, East, south, north. I know that I would never live south and prefer the east to the West. The midwest is okay for now. 3."You might want to spend a little more time at home in the US getting to know your own people rather than hating who you are from afar based on someone else's prejudicial beliefs" Wow... can we get any more stupid now? I don't hate myself at all. I honestly believe that I am one of the few things that happens when things go RIGHT. I speak another language other than Spanish. I have a college degree, I have a great education which I don't take for granted and I have the ability to work with people from different cultures and get them to do what I want them to do without anyone hating me or calling me a "pushy American" behind my back. I can point out where any country is on a map as well as any American state (yes, a lot of Americans have no clue where Argentina is much less Mississippi). I know better to listen and really hear before I just say "Well, I'm right because I am American therefore everything I say and do must be right". What a load of bullshit. The truth is THAT attitude that Americans are the greatest thing since sliced bread is why people turn on us. The truth is that Americans for the most part have rested on their post WWII laurels for so long that in many aspects the world has moved on. Sure, America is a superpower but if you took away our nuclear weapons and our military, we'd be fucked in a moment and wouldn't know what hit us. Its because of the "invincible, manifest destiny" crap that America is sliding. Lets just take one really easy example. Let just pretend for a moment that due to either the Middle East saying "hey, fuck the US.. NO oil to them" or if there was no more oil because of a shortage. Holland, Germany, The UK, and a few other places would hurt pretty bad but they have the infrastructure already in place to make the change to an alternate fuel based economy if they need to. They have made the regulations and incentives to look for another way of doing something. They are more open to listening to an learning from their neighbors and working in cooperation if there is something for the long term good. They will recover faster and have the technology to sell to other places. (Japan should be included in this list as well). The US on the other hand won't know what to do besides perhaps bomb the middle east so they can get their hands on that oil. Great solution. All along, the US has always had the option to put into place things to start to change the economy and make the world a better place- require gas stations to offer fuel cell recharging, invest in more natural sources of energy, encourage kids to study technology and languages more. But no.. the big corporations and special interest groups block any kind of legislation that would force them to take a period of time where they might have to take a slight reduction in profit in order to have a long term solution. Medicine is still #1 in the US but in so many other fields, the technology drain is appalling but instead of change, the attitude that everyone else is wrong, we're right, we're number#1, we're the best will bite us in the ass. Its already happening in small ways. If the attitude does not change quickly, welcome to being in a big country with a lot of bombs and some great scenery but nothing to really make it relevant besides size. Nothing is forever... esp when you don't innovate or open you mind.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 15:22:58 EDT

Regarding Hamil, I am sure that the military and the US tax payer shouldered the burden or part of it. Who cares. Helping out injured or otherwise in need non service americans in Iraq seems like hardly a good reason to get upset. Americanism - membership has it's privileges.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 15:20:09 EDT

Ms. Tek, living here for any length of time means nothing. I live in NYC. Depending on who you are and where you grow up, NYC can be the most poverty stricken, dead end place in the world. Or it could be the most fabulous, exciting, stimulating place in the world. You're obviously a young woman, and while you've spent maybe 20 years here, how much have you really seen? Do you honestly feel that you can judge the entire nation based solely on your experience? If so, then that too shows a bit of inexperience on your part with the world. As an aside, just like you've seen only a few sides of the US, you've also probably only seen a few sides of Euro lifestyle. They have trailer trash too you know. With cockney accents no less! You might want to spend a little more time at home in the US getting to know your own people rather than hating who you are from afar based on someone else's prejudicial beliefs. Regarding why a civilian would be in Iraq, this is hardly a conspiracy theory. The fact is, any one of us could go to Iraq (I hear that since it's basically a commonwealth of the US, no passport is needed), and earn 5 to 10 times what we are earning here if we help out the rebuilding effort (and have needed skills). The increase in salary comes at a price, the risk of working in a war zone. This type of thing is very common - after a war, capitalism-wise, there are amazing opportunities, but also grave risk.

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 15:09:39 EDT

We never get the whole story.

Comment by jack e. jett

Thu, 13 May 2004 15:05:41 EDT

Question: Something seems really fishy about this Berg beheading. Does anyone else get the same vibe? I don't understand why anyone would go alone to Bagdad looking for business. Second question regarding Mr. Hamil, the "one that got away" or the new jessica lynch. He was an employee of Halliburton. Who is responsible for his medical care, his flight back, and all the cost incurred in his return to safety. I think maybe I am outraged at the outrage of the outrage. I just feel like we are not getting the entire story. jack e. jett

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 14:07:37 EDT

Ah.. but I do have just grounds: I've lived there for an extended period of time. I am not pulling shit out of my ass. And once again, I am not irrational nor hostile to Americans.

Comment by James Golden

Thu, 13 May 2004 14:03:11 EDT

Ms Tek said: Eruopeans tend to be a little bit more global and up on the news and politics than their American counterparts. Definition of prejudice: 2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Comment by Ms. Tek

Thu, 13 May 2004 13:04:38 EDT

Anti-American? I was waiting for that to come up. First off, the definition of "prejudice" Main Entry: 1prej�u�dice Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL 1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims 2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics I don't see anywhere in anything I have said that I am talking about limiting the rights of Americans or taking an irrational hostiliy against Americans. If anything I want Americans to be better than what they are showing the world for the past years. And a plane ticket and taking a walk in a back street of some town for only a few days will tell you nothing. You are the outsider. However, spend time in a neighborhood, going down to the 'local', working there, learning the language, watching the televison nightly, living there is the only way to really understand and observe. No one cares about Yank wandering down a side street or stepping inot a local pub for the night. Then again, I don't expect to convince you. *shrugs*.

Comment by boomcrashbaby

Thu, 13 May 2004 12:57:53 EDT

I think this site just needs one big damn group hug.