Struck the Deal and the Damage Done
Published May 11, 2004
Watching the news and watching everything that is going on around me, I just don't know what to say.
For once, I do not know what to say. I know how I feel. I know what I believe, but I just don't have the eloquence to express my profound disappointment, sadness, and trepidation.
And I feel hurt. Deep profound hurt.
Ladies and gentlemen of the United States of America- welcome to the new world order. Welcome to truly being the main prey in the hunter's sights.
I know some yanks are happy with their head in their arse, happy in their hobbit holes, content to stay in their country, their state, their towns, perhaps not even moving within a 50 mile radius of where they were born. American Idol is on the TV and if you are hungry, just hop in the SUV and go get a super-sized half of a cow (because you know, bread makes you fat but eating whole cows in one sitting will get you thin) to slarf down with a "Big Gulp". Head on back home- home sweet home, God bless America.
And you know what? That is fine. That is cool. The thing you must consider however is that some don't like to sit in one place and want to explore the world and want to be true "Ambassadors" and representatives of the US. These people are just as much "red blooded Americans" as those who are content to gaze doe eyed at the television set... low carb beer in hand.
But with the drastic change in the status quo, who can feel comfortable leaving the country now?
I can't help but to look back on my earlier post when the allegations about the photos first came out. Where as I still stand by my original premise that things like this happen because there are always sick individuals in any population, the extent of the mishandling of the whole situation is appalling. The fact that it was allowed to go on to the extent that it was shows more than just a lack of discipline and supervision. What it shows is a command structure that has completely broken down and is in conflict with its core mission. Whose fault is it? Considering that Rumsfeld didn't even make Bush aware of the situation in a timely basis, I find it disgusting for Bush to rally and even hail Rumsfeld for such a good job. What happened in Iraq should never have happened. Soldiers are not trained to behave in that manner and Officers sure as hell know better. America was already losing the moral high ground when she stomped into Iraq- the photos and the subsequent handling of the situation has given Americans to the terrorists on a golden platter.
- Struck the Deal and the Damage Done
- Published: May 11, 2004
- Type:
- Section: Culture
- Writer: Ms. Tek
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Comments on this articleComments
I have as much to say about it as I have to say about the scandals in the US.
And I wasn't a target before this. I travel enough to know when things were safer in other countries and when they have become infinitely less so. There are some places now that I know that I will not venture without an European escort. I can't even travel Scotland anymore without hearing negativity toward Americans. I'm lucky I'm a chick or I'm sure I'd have seen a bar fight by now.
I believe in the UN because I do think there need to be a forum where all the world meets and discuss thing. No one lives in a vacuum- a dialog must continue between everyone.
And since you decided to approach this posting in such an aggressive manner, "As normal you continue to spew your trash."
If you don't like it, you can fuck off with your little imperialistic pole. It is a free country, afterall. ;)
Be nice and I'll be nice and cordial back, come in like a dick, I'll show you what I do to dicks.
Marc, for the umpteenth time, it's "YOU'RE" -- not "YOUR."
One is a contraction meaning "you are", the other is a possessive pronoun.
And Tek, don't even try arguing with semi-literate knuckle-draggin' window lickin' motards.
PS: Excellent post - I agree.
xxoo
S
I think we all know that we aren't going to agree on a lot of things. I still disagree with you on what we should and should not have done following September 11th, etc.
BUT, the common ground that I think we can find is that I am unhappy with the way this war has been handled in many respects. I mean, it is natural to make mistakes, but at some point I expect them to learn from mistakes and not have a subsequent screw-up.
I now agree with you about the liklihood of arrogance in the White House even though I still agree with their initial action.
Anyway, it was a good post and it is always good to find some common ground.
That is the interesting bit though, isn't it?
It seems that more and more people are looking across the table from each other on this and finding that they are agreeing.
That is great, but the scary thing is why did it have to be over something as awful as this?
Interesting and heartfelt post,Ms.Tek.
A small grammatical correction though:
It should be "It's par for the course"
not "It's power for the course".
I've noticed you turn this phrase a few
times and I just wanted to let ya know.
LOL... Thank you. It's funny you mention it.
A quick story-
This morning I was washing my hair and combing it out and as I was thinking it occurred to me that it should be "par for the course" as that it is really an allusion to golf.
Which goes to show that I don't play golf!
Thank you. =)
I don't play golf either.It seems like a
very boring game and is an unholy refuge
for fashion scofflaws.
Haha.. I would have to agree with the boring part. I had someone tell me that the reason why he plays is because he gets to be outside all day drinking scotch and can tall about his balls and no one laughs.
*shrugs*
I don't get it.
I like golf, but I can see the idiocy in it all. Many golfers treat their hobby (which frankly many aren't even good at) like a religion that they should worship. They have goofy trinkets, bumperstickers and office displays to honor the game. Hey. I like to play, but not that much. I like cooking too, you don't see me hanging a frying pan in my cubicle for all to see.
It seems to me that most people I know
who golf do it as much as for the status
symbol part of it as much as for the
sporting aspect. Miniature golf is cool
though. Frisbee golf too.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzze!
Ms. Tek, you should have stopped feeling safe the day that the planes crashed into the WTC. I saw it from my home (which incidentally is within 50 miles of where I was born).
It's clear by your article that you are not aware that we are at war. No, it isn't safe to travel abroad, especially to countries that might hate us.
Apologize? For what exactly? Those who tortured people in Iraq will be sent to jail and will pay for their mistakes, as will anyone else involved as far up the chain of command as possible. How many of Saddams men were court marshalled for torture? Any?
Yes, the tortures are terrible, and they are not in line with what we are trying to accomplish. Not only that, but many more Americans will die as a result of those tortures. It was a total fuck up. But you really can't drop it all on the president's lap for this.
While I don't agree with Ms. Tek on the point, she absolutely can drop it all in the President's lap. Excuse me for putting words into your mouth Ms. Tek, but if your stance is that you never wanted to go to war in the first place, you have every right to do that.
She isn't saying GWB ordered the torture, just that he is running a bad operation. She is entitled to that opinion.
Thats fine, but based on what exactly? None of us have a clear picture of the scope of the tortures or how the entire war will turn out. Yes, you can put it all on the president, but what does that mean? The government represents the people. If it's on anyone, its on all of us. But lets start with the people who actually DID the torture, ok?
And btw, golf is boring. mini golf is cool.
Bear in mind, never have we been in such a conflict with as much access to worldwide media and instant opinion. you think prisoners were not tortured in every single other war that we or anyone else was involved in? Nah, it just wasn't on camera. Also, there were not 4 or 5 24 hour news channels fighting for ratings.
The magnification of every detail in this war is unlike anything any society has ever dealt with. The images of war are ugly, and it takes ugliness to win. This is the first time the people who are not fighting the conflict are seeing these images first hand.
It's clear by your article that you are not aware that we are at war. No, it isn't safe to travel abroad, especially to countries that might hate us.
I am not at war and the countries that hate us are rising by the day. I don't choose to live my life as a paranoid person in the fit of bogeyman histrionics. As I said, when I am walking through places such as Scotland and Holland and now I am getting nasty comments out of the blue when just a few years ago this didn't happen then yes, something is very wrong. When I know that because of the idiotic and misinformed actions of a few, I can't count on my surroundings anymore then something is wrong. There is a part in Paris that has a huge arab population living on those streets. I used to not care about passing through there alone. Now I do not dare and will walk way out of my way to avoid that place.
I can in fact blame this all on the President because HE made the call and it was up to HIM to make sure the proper plans and people were in place to minimize the fallout. I do not agree with going to Iraq however say I was in the military and that was my order. The very first thing that I would know is that I am dealing with a non-western entity. I am dealing with a people who do not hold my values and do not operate in a way that my western allies and enemies do. What I expect to be decent and fair is not in their eyes. I would also be aware that they hold their religion very close to them. There is no way in HELL I would not be stepping on eggs when I was detaining people. There is no way in hell I would not be micromanaging the treatment of detainees and the actions of my troops. THEY are the one who must be a positive representation of the greater nations because I know what I am dealing with. I know I am dealing with fanatical people who are looking to prove that I am "the great satan". I cannot force my values or views on them. I need to know that if I don't follow code to the rule, it is going to bite me in the ass. Long memories and revenge is a very basic tenement of Arab culture. So is a very archaic honor system. I cannot just march in and because I am there expect that I have just raised everyone's view to my own.
None of us have a clear picture of the scope of the tortures or how the entire war will turn out.
Clear picture? Hello, naked man with attack dogs. Women's panties over a muslim man's head. Being led around with a dog leash. What part of that doesn't seem bad to you? Would you like to be treated like that in custody? Do you think that is fair treatment?
As far as how this war will turn out... who can say? I think we could possibly be on the brink of a de-evolution of world society that could last 100 years. West vs Middle East and parts of Asia. You are up against Islam now and history shows that Islamic culture is very strong. You can bomb the hell out of these people, you can beat and torture them all you want and you will only make them stronger and bring more to the cause. This is why I have always said that the only way to deal with this was not with such ill-thought force (mind you, I agree with going into Afghanistan) but with cunning.
What we have now is a PR fuck up that has turned not only the arabs against us but many Europeans as well. In the meantime it already makes a volatile world order even more so. We cannot have the battle of the Arab/Muslim world against the Western one because the truth be known, that will be far too bloody to contemplate.
I watched the full video of the beheading. I have a strong stomach and I cannot say that I was sickened because I have seen death before. I did however cry because it is horrible and because of this both sides have added more hate and revenge...
revenge
revenge
revenge
over and over and over and most of the people who are going to die and get hurt are the ones who have no control over this and want nothing to do with it- on both sides.
James, read my previous post on this subject.
Its not exactly true that this is the first time that the public not doing the fighting has had immediate access to what is going on. That still doesn't make it right and that still makes a serious failure. In WWII the images came after the fact but during the Vietnam war, the images came in... not as quickly as they do now but they did.
But not as quickly as now. And there was certainly torture.
As far as these people in other countries saying stuff out of the blue to you when before they did not, thats their problem. I think that when we got involved in WW2, those same people were saying the same things. Leadership is sometimes making unpopular choices. I would venture that the scott who remarks to you as you walk by isn't fully aware of the problems with the UN and the security counsel, and probably doesn't know much about the Oil for Food fiasco. You do, you can educate these people as you meet them, or ignore them. Frankly, they shouldn't even be bothering you with matters that are at this point out of your control.
I wonder, how many europeans you know have really thought about this in terms of the fact that before 911, we were not pursuing any war at all. Where is the anger towards the radical islamists who brought this whole war on everyones shoulders?
You are not at war? Wake up. Your country IS at war. If you consider yourself a part of the country, whether you agree or not with the effort, its naive to think that you could not be at war while your country is.
"What part of that doesn't seem bad to you? Would you like to be treated like that in custody? Do you think that is fair treatment? "
Uhhhh, did I say that the torture was NOT bad? No. My point here is that you are focusing on this like it was the doctrine of US policy. It wasn't. Sure, we will pay for this, and those responsible for the torture are clearly idiots. But it's not the mission and its not the point. We will correct this mistake and move on. We've already started.
"You are up against Islam now and history shows that Islamic culture is very strong."
Did you know that Islam was started around 600 AD. Islam is strong, so is every other religion. People are people, we are all the same on this planet regardless of religion.
What is different here is that Islam, not western society, has been going through a de-evolution of sorts. This clamping down of equal rights and the radicalization of muslims is a fairly new development in their world. And frankly, it's not acceptable.
This clamping down of equal rights and the radicalization of muslims is a fairly new development in their world. And frankly, it's not acceptable.
According to whom? So long as it doesn't affect us, who is to say what the Muslim world can and cannot do. This is an issue that does tear me. I am a feminist and I think that Islam is horrible to women. By the same token if that is what the women choose to do then what can I say? You can retort that well, the goverment doesn't allow the women the right to chose, then I would respond , so if we don't like what another goverment does, we have the de facto right to change that, even if what they are doing really doesn't affect me? Of course, cases of genocide and torture are not included in this but telling women that they must wear a burqua and can't go outside where I really dispise that, if that is is what the people have decided for themselves, I have no right it impose my views on them.
I wonder, how many europeans you know have really thought about this in terms of the fact that before 911, we were not pursuing any war at all. Where is the anger towards the radical islamists who brought this whole war on everyones shoulders?
All the Europeans I know have thought about this. Eruopeans tend to be a little bit more global and up on the news and politics than their American counterparts. A sad but true fact. You will get little arugement from them when it comes to Afganistan. Most the world was behind the actions in Afganistan. It was Iraq that set them off. No one things what happend on 9/11 was okay and should go unpunished at all. The point is that many doubt (and reasonalby so in my opinion) what Iraq has to do with the war on terror. It was WMDs then it was War on Terror, then it became a humanitarian mission, and now no one knows what the hell it is. In the meantime, there are still huge problems with Saudi Arabia and they still haven't even gotten a hair from Osama. There is a British turn of phase "he's lost the plot". That seems esp. fitting at this point in time.
You are not at war? Wake up. Your country IS at war. If you consider yourself a part of the country, whether you agree or not with the effort, its naive to think that you could not be at war while your country is.
Debatable. There are a hell of a lot like me out ther who don't consider that we are at war. Dragged into conflict, maybe... but not at war. As far as this being my country or that I am a part of it, that is debatable as well. I cerntainly don't feel a part of it... and at this moment, for the first time in my life, I really don't know if I want to be a part of it anymore and that is the part that scares me most of all.
"Eruopeans tend to be a little bit more global and up on the news and politics than their American counterparts. A sad but true fact."
Wrong. They just ACT like they do. Sad but true.
European anti americanism isn't new. WAYYYYYYYY before 911, they had beef with us on a variety of issues. And they are largely wrong. And frankly who cares.
THey hate us for Kyoto, but why should we have done that? So our economy could be like theirs? HAHAHAHAHAHAH
They were mad because we didnt support the ICC, but the ICC would have had us up for warcrimes being tried by UN states like Libya, sorry, not interested.
They didn't fully support our action in afghanistan, they just couldnt really come out against us. The sentiment from Europe was that ultimately we got what we deserved. Be honest, am I wrong?
"if that is is what the people have decided for themselves, I have no right it impose my views on them."
But when those views equal fanatasism and jihadists crashing planes into our buildings because we are infidels and our women DONT wear bhurkas, at that point, it does become our business. They teach anti american hate in saudi schools.
" really don't know if I want to be a part of it anymore and that is the part that scares me most of all."
I like you miss tek but I have to say it, if you can't stand with your people during the hard times, then you shouldnt bother to ever stand with them.
Y'know, I'm starting to think the best way to deal with abject, obdurate ignorance isn't with words, but rather with shiny, shiny trinkets.
Oh, look! Shiny!
"Eruopeans tend to be a little bit more global and up on the news and politics than their American counterparts. A sad but true fact."
Wrong. They just ACT like they do. Sad but true.
Really? What makes you say that? Have you ever lived over there for an extended period of time for non business or vaction reasons?
European anti americanism isn't new. WAYYYYYYYY before 911, they had beef with us on a variety of issues. And they are largely wrong. And frankly who cares.
THey hate us for Kyoto, but why should we have done that? So our economy could be like theirs? HAHAHAHAHAHAH
They were mad because we didnt support the ICC, but the ICC would have had us up for warcrimes being tried by UN states like Libya, sorry, not interested.
They didn't fully support our action in afghanistan, they just couldnt really come out against us. The sentiment from Europe was that ultimately we got what we deserved. Be honest, am I wrong?
Yes, very much so.
"if that is is what the people have decided for themselves, I have no right it impose my views on them."
But when those views equal fanatasism and jihadists crashing planes into our buildings because we are infidels and our women DONT wear bhurkas, at that point, it does become our business. They teach anti american hate in saudi schools.
" really don't know if I want to be a part of it anymore and that is the part that scares me most of all."
I like you miss tek but I have to say it, if you can't stand with your people during the hard times, then you shouldnt bother to ever stand with them.
My people? I can find you vast amounst of American people who think as I do... some right on this site and THAT is what makes me want to stay... for those of us who do not believe in following blindly, esp when the path is so wrong. Not all of us Americans think "do it no matter how wrong it is because the leader says so". Forget that that garbage! Thats what happenend in Nazi Germany and the USSR.
Ms Tek is right.
Spend any time at all living outside this country (not in a Hilton or on a cruise) and you'll quickly see that many Europeans - including the French - have a better global awareness than the average American. They know what's going on in Africa and Indonesia and India and America and Mexico, and know what it means.
Check it out next time you're at Starbucks or Borders. Try starting a conversation about something topical going on in some other country (not Iraq) and see what happens.
In Europe, you're apt to get a knowledgeable discussion based on facts, not gross generalizations, rather than a blank stare.
"Sad but true."
Or mention SUDAN and see how many people want to jump in, stop the slaughter, and give them an islamic democracy.
(Wait; do they have oil?)
Republican Hypocrites.
You are all practicing a form of prejudice. Your personal experiences may be one thing, but to make a statement that as a general rule, people from other countries are smarter or more globally aware is simply prejudice.
I happen to believe that the people in Europe are equally smart, equally ignorant, equally aware. Why? Because they are people like us. There is only a body of water between us.
Like I said, get off your high horses.
I've found that personal experience is far better than no experience.
That's great. Doesn't make you any less prejudice, or shall I say anti american.
I, too, have bought plane tickets to go to far away lands, and I have always gone off the beaten path. That might explain why I see all people as people, rather than look upon my own people with derision.
I think this site just needs one big damn group hug.
Anti-American?
I was waiting for that to come up.
First off, the definition of "prejudice"
Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
I don't see anywhere in anything I have said that I am talking about limiting the rights of Americans or taking an irrational hostiliy against Americans.
If anything I want Americans to be better than what they are showing the world for the past years.
And a plane ticket and taking a walk in a back street of some town for only a few days will tell you nothing. You are the outsider. However, spend time in a neighborhood, going down to the 'local', working there, learning the language, watching the televison nightly, living there is the only way to really understand and observe.
No one cares about Yank wandering down a side street or stepping inot a local pub for the night.
Then again, I don't expect to convince you. *shrugs*.
Ms Tek said:
Eruopeans tend to be a little bit more global and up on the news and politics than their American counterparts.
Definition of prejudice:
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
Ah.. but I do have just grounds:
I've lived there for an extended period of time.
I am not pulling shit out of my ass. And once again, I am not irrational nor hostile to Americans.
Question:
Something seems really fishy about this Berg beheading. Does anyone else get the same vibe? I don't understand why anyone would go alone to Bagdad looking for business.
Second question regarding Mr. Hamil, the "one that got away" or the new jessica lynch. He was an employee of Halliburton. Who is responsible for his medical care, his flight back, and all the cost incurred in his return to safety.
I think maybe I am outraged at the outrage of the outrage.
I just feel like we are not getting the entire story.
jack e. jett
Ms. Tek, living here for any length of time means nothing. I live in NYC. Depending on who you are and where you grow up, NYC can be the most poverty stricken, dead end place in the world. Or it could be the most fabulous, exciting, stimulating place in the world. You're obviously a young woman, and while you've spent maybe 20 years here, how much have you really seen? Do you honestly feel that you can judge the entire nation based solely on your experience? If so, then that too shows a bit of inexperience on your part with the world.
As an aside, just like you've seen only a few sides of the US, you've also probably only seen a few sides of Euro lifestyle. They have trailer trash too you know. With cockney accents no less!
You might want to spend a little more time at home in the US getting to know your own people rather than hating who you are from afar based on someone else's prejudicial beliefs.
Regarding why a civilian would be in Iraq, this is hardly a conspiracy theory. The fact is, any one of us could go to Iraq (I hear that since it's basically a commonwealth of the US, no passport is needed), and earn 5 to 10 times what we are earning here if we help out the rebuilding effort (and have needed skills). The increase in salary comes at a price, the risk of working in a war zone.
This type of thing is very common - after a war, capitalism-wise, there are amazing opportunities, but also grave risk.
Regarding Hamil, I am sure that the military and the US tax payer shouldered the burden or part of it. Who cares. Helping out injured or otherwise in need non service americans in Iraq seems like hardly a good reason to get upset. Americanism - membership has it's privileges.
1) I am older than I look.
2) Yeah, I'm blessed. Very, very, very, blessed, lucky, smart, and opportunistic. In my 28 years, I've lived more life than people who are 3 times my age. And this isn't some "punk rock I know better than you" thing. I've taken risks and put myself in positions where I got to see so many different aspects of life. I've worked in a comic book store, carriage driver, social worker, bouncer, DJ, bartender, waitress, Global systems analyst for a major company. When I see the opportunity to try something different, I do. I don't need to justify myself by comparing my life story to yours. Frankly, where as I know it would make astounding reading and could probably make a very good memoir even at this point in life, this isn;t about that. You can be 80 years old and still know fuck all and have been fuck all, and you can be 25 and have lived a lifetime. Its all matter of luck and personal choice.
3. You are telling me about getting out then in the next sentence saying "They have trailer trash too you know. With cockney accents no less." That there just shows ignorance on your part. First of all, no one is talking about "trash" of any kind. This isn't a discussion of which country has trashy or ghetto people. Don't turn it into something it is not. As far as getting out in the US, I've traveled the US and Canada as well. West, East, south, north. I know that I would never live south and prefer the east to the West. The midwest is okay for now.
3."You might want to spend a little more time at home in the US getting to know your own people rather than hating who you are from afar based on someone else's prejudicial beliefs" Wow... can we get any more stupid now? I don't hate myself at all. I honestly believe that I am one of the few things that happens when things go RIGHT. I speak another language other than Spanish. I have a college degree, I have a great education which I don't take for granted and I have the ability to work with people from different cultures and get them to do what I want them to do without anyone hating me or calling me a "pushy American" behind my back. I can point out where any country is on a map as well as any American state (yes, a lot of Americans have no clue where Argentina is much less Mississippi). I know better to listen and really hear before I just say "Well, I'm right because I am American therefore everything I say and do must be right". What a load of bullshit.
The truth is THAT attitude that Americans are the greatest thing since sliced bread is why people turn on us. The truth is that Americans for the most part have rested on their post WWII laurels for so long that in many aspects the world has moved on. Sure, America is a superpower but if you took away our nuclear weapons and our military, we'd be fucked in a moment and wouldn't know what hit us. Its because of the "invincible, manifest destiny" crap that America is sliding.
Lets just take one really easy example.
Let just pretend for a moment that due to either the Middle East saying "hey, fuck the US.. NO oil to them" or if there was no more oil because of a shortage.
Holland, Germany, The UK, and a few other places would hurt pretty bad but they have the infrastructure already in place to make the change to an alternate fuel based economy if they need to. They have made the regulations and incentives to look for another way of doing something. They are more open to listening to an learning from their neighbors and working in cooperation if there is something for the long term good. They will recover faster and have the technology to sell to other places. (Japan should be included in this list as well). The US on the other hand won't know what to do besides perhaps bomb the middle east so they can get their hands on that oil. Great solution. All along, the US has always had the option to put into place things to start to change the economy and make the world a better place- require gas stations to offer fuel cell recharging, invest in more natural sources of energy, encourage kids to study technology and languages more. But no.. the big corporations and special interest groups block any kind of legislation that would force them to take a period of time where they might have to take a slight reduction in profit in order to have a long term solution.
Medicine is still #1 in the US but in so many other fields, the technology drain is appalling but instead of change, the attitude that everyone else is wrong, we're right, we're number#1, we're the best will bite us in the ass. Its already happening in small ways. If the attitude does not change quickly, welcome to being in a big country with a lot of bombs and some great scenery but nothing to really make it relevant besides size.
Nothing is forever... esp when you don't innovate or open you mind.
My comments must have hit a nerve. Like you I've lived a lifetime in my short number of years (I am still older than you but not by very much). I've also DJ'd (still do now), worked in a petstore, electrician, and a wide variety of other jobs before I found what I love. But I won't bore you wiht any of that. Oh yeah, I am positive that you are blessed, and if you aren't well then I hope you one day become blessed (I don't controll those things :>).
It's funny how you talk about Germany and Holland having an infrastructure that could withstand no oil. Germany's horrid economy is partially why the UK hasn't gone to the Euro. If the ME cut off oil, ALL OF EUROPE would be hurting way worse than it is now. And believe me, as bad as the economy was here in the US, it was worse in Europe. This is an economic fact.
Are you aware that Japan's economy is so bad right now, they suffered from a form of deflation, have an economy that hasn't perked up in over a decade, and the population there is actually contracting.
GOD FORBID we ever became like Germany or Japan.
And let me also add, the middle east would never cut us off. Why? Because we pay them. They value the trade just like we value the oil. And for giggles, assume that they did cut us off - I'm sure we'd cope better than anyone else out there.
For the sake of clarity, you keep referring to the "American attitude" and how we feel we are the "greatest thing since sliced bread," can you explain in what ways, specific examples, where we've acted like we are the greatest thing since sliced bread.
BTW since so many doubt what I say:
Economist.com on Germany
Similar report on Japan
I don't make this stuff up - I'm not that good :> Also note that Holland isn't even mentioned.
Also by contrast, America's economy has been growing steadily. Yes, there are cyclical recessions, but there are also cyclical booms, and the trend has historically been up.
Boom! There you are proving my point about the typical attitude right there.
I never said anything specifically about the economy.
Holland, Germany, the UK all have alternative ways to provide energy to homes on a large enough scale that should something dire happen, they don't need to spend a lot of time bumbling how to change over. They employ tidal and wind power to their energy needs. I have to say the most impressive, cool, neat, thing that I saw when I was over in March was a huge wind farm in the middle of what I think was the Irish Sea. And lets not forget the tidal turbines!
tidal energy turbine
They have this INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE which the US does not. The technology is being more actively developed over there. There is NO REASON with all the natural resources that the US has in place, that we don't use more solar and water based forms of alternative energy.
Japan is at the forefront when it come to energy efficient cars.
If anything this shows that you do not need to have a booming economy to be technologically innovative. To me it is scary that because there is no excuse for the US to be so behind in these things- beside its not a priority.
The oil will not last forever. And the OPEC has been talking about switching over the the Euro as opposed the dollar for sale of oil. China and India's market are exponentially making more demands for oil. The middle east will make money no matter what.
But the point ISN'T about the money. The point is not being reliant on something that is not infinite.
As I said, we aren't talking about the economy, we're talking about the best uses for resources.
fine, dont talk about the economy, but ultimately it's what feeds, clothes, shelters people. If you want to live al fresco thats your choice. But I'd rather take my chances with the U.S. and it's relations with OPEC.
BTW, I'd like to add something. You made the following statement:
"China and India's market are exponentially making more demands for oil."
It's interesting, but one of the beef's that many Euros have about the US is that we rejected the Kyoto protocol. Bush felt it would hamper our economy while allowing countries like India to pollute more than us. Does that sound like "attitude" or just good sense? Frankly, I happen to feel that whatever ecological treaty we sign with the rest of the world should hold ALL nations equally accountable for pollution. Kyoto did not, and Bush was 100% right in not supporting it.
How many of your European friends know this level of detail about Kyoto? Better yet, how many are willing to admit to the hypocrisy of Kyoto? Not so enlightened if you ask me.
Look at france, they banned Bhurka's for chrissakes! How enlightened is that? France and Russia involved in the Oil for Food scandal. So while they were claiming to help "contain" saddam, they were secretly getting killer deals on Oil and lining his pockets so he could buy more weapons and gold toilets. The Iraqi's still starved. Did Chirac ever ask Saddam to give some of that oil money for Food? No actually, the main benefactors of the UN Oil for Food programme (Russia, France and Egypt) simply rejected the US's call for Saddam's ouster. Then they tried to hold Saddam era debt over the Iraqis to get a piece of the reconstruction effort. Not too enlightened if you ask me.
This is not an argument you are going to win. Emotionally, you may feel correct that the big bad US is the bane of the world. Factually, this is a global village. The people of this planet, ALL OF US, are of the same species, we have the same faults, and we ALL bear responsibility for the ills of society today. Until you stop throwing stones from across the lake, you will never understand that.
Dude, you have been putting words in my mouth during this whole exchange which is amusing.
How many of your European friends know this level of detail about Kyoto? Better yet, how many are willing to admit to the hypocrisy of Kyoto? Not so enlightened if you ask me.
So if they don't agree with you or come to the same conclusions then it is hypocrisy and wrong?
Look at france, they banned Bhurka's for chrissakes!
It has not passed yet and they want to ban ALL religious attire in school. Head-scarves, turbans, large crosses. Is that enlightened or unenlightened? Neither one, they are trying to crack down on some of the problems that are going on in their school system. In all honesty, I tend to lean more on their side on this issue. If it is a public school then you should be made to conform to the rules set. If you wan to go to muslim school, then go to muslim school, if you want to go to catholic school, then go there. School is for learning secular things, if bringing in your religious stuff is going to cause disruption to the majority of the students, then that is a problem.
Your friends don't have to agree. But they MUST acknowledge that Bush made the decision to forego Kyoto because of real reasons and not some "attitude."
So far, Euros have typically listed Kyoto as a grievance against the US, posing it as an example of our unwillingness to work with the global community since Bush was elected. If we choose not to agree to something not in our interest, is that attitude or just sanity?
Regarding France, they will allow the display of crosses on schoolchildren. There is no question that the law there will favor Christians and not anyone else.
As far as putting words in your mouth, i dont see it, but if you truly feel that way then I apologize.
No one said that the Kyoto agreement had to do with "attitude". Many Euros did not agree with Bush's position.
But that is not the only example of Bush's unwillingness to work with the international community. What I think perhaps is the real problem is not so much Bush's not wanting to work with the international community - hell when you really look at it, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, etc.. etc.. have always followed rules that are only for the United States. It is the blatant arrogance and dismissing of other nations concerns that bothers Eruos the most. It is a lack of genuine diplomacy.
As far as crosses are concerned, please look at this article
The law forbids religious apparel and signs that "conspicuously show" a student's religious affiliation. Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses would also be banned, but the law is aimed at removing Islamic head scarves from classrooms.
See, I am a HUGE proponet of secularism. I believe that at home, social, community things, sure... then wear your things if you must but in the workplace and school where a large gathering of people must be for set amount of time, then you can dictate uniform code. Hell, I think our public schools here in America would be better if everyone had to wear uniforms.
The plays into my argument that if a person can be allowed to wear a headscarf or turban at work, why can a person not have a piercing or visible tattoo? Does religion give you more rights than not?
I disagree about uniforms unless we really want to turn our schools into a pink flyod-esque meat grinder. But it's neither here nor there.
Your quote proves my point. The French ban targets muslims. That wont help relations, trust me.
you say:
" It is the blatant arrogance and dismissing of other nations concerns that bothers Eruos the most. It is a lack of genuine diplomacy."
It's not enough to say it. I cited the Kyoto protocol because many Euros cite it as a grievance. You say Euros disagree with Bush's stance. That's fine but they have to respect his point of view and his desire to look out for whats best for his country (it's his job after all). Unfortunately, you have not addressed ANY of the points I made about why he made the decision not to sign with Kyoto. Until you can give a good reason why Euros disagree with Bush, then you shouldn't really be taking sides.
Let me repaste your statement:
"It is the blatant arrogance and dismissing of other nations concerns that bothers Eruos the most. It is a lack of genuine diplomacy."
It's not enough to just say this. You must cite specific examples. If you cannot, then you shouldn't argue this point. I cited Kyoto.
Specific examples?
We can go back to the invasion of Iraq. Easy.
OK fine. Oil for Food Programme. We felt that the sanctions were being reduced to nothing by French and Russian action. We wanted the UN to finish it's inspections. Instead they wanted more and more time. France and Russia covered for Saddam as they were two of the three greatest benefactors of the UN programme (which didn't feed anyone), yet they were in bed with him. Also, France and Russia, following the Baathist ouster, held Hussein era debt, crippling debt, over the Iraqis. They wanted in on the reconstruction. Finally they were guilted out of that and dropped Saddam's debts.
Why should we have let that type of corruption direct our foriegn policy? This wasn't us "dismissing their concerns" - the U.N. is broken and has been for years now. Quadaffi is human rights chair for chrissakes!
Also note, the UN Security Counsel vote that would have been vetoed, there are 5 members who can veto - US, UK, China, France, Russia.
When you consider the debt and the Oil for Food Programme (scandal), it's no wonder why the member states fell on the sides that thye did.
And let me remind you, our invasion of Iraq follows 12 years of UN resolutions against Iraq that were not acted on. So we were in line with the rest of the world regarding whether or not Saddam posed a threat. These were UN resolutions agreed to by the same security counsel. When it came time to act on them, those with a financial interest balked and revealed their true position.
Here are some links on point:
Annan to investigate oil for food scandal
Heritage foundation article
Overall responsibility for the program's failure should lie with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, who in effect turned a blind eye to one of the biggest financial scandals of modern times. The U.N.'s inability to successfully manage the oil-for-food program represents a spectacular failure of leadership on the part of Mr. Annan.
Article I wrote last year detailing the Oil for Food scandal, and it includes links to the UN and other legit sources with detail of who got what.
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As normal you contine to spew your trash. But your right about one thing.
"Its holy war and each and every American is now more than ever a target."
Although you fail to realize looking thru your ideological blinders that war was declared on America in 1998, and will continue for decades. You were a target then and a target now. To say anything Bush has done has made it any more dangerous is nothing but speculation by those that dislike him.
You say you "believe in the UN", I would enjoy your comments on the Oil for Food scam, and Kofi's continued blockage of the investigation of it. Do you have any comments on the two UN sex scandals that are coming to light, one in Kosovo the second in the Sudan.
Anything?